PhillyArena Forums
PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: ziggy on October 18, 2008, 01:16:27 AM
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http://www.ktvz.com/global/story.asp?s=9192687
This is from my hometown. I don't know the coach, met him once, he was my sons weight training teacher for 2 years. I do know the kid. I know the mom she married a local guy and worked for our company for about 8 years. I know the boys dad, have known him since he was 10-12 years old. He has worked for our company for 20 years, same with his brother who I have known even longer. I known the Indian fella Chet Van Pelt, known him for 40 years. Know the Indian kids as well.
Just want your unvarnished opinions about the whole situation.
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The classic human failure of the one offended not taking thier complaint to the offender (unless offender is known obstinate)? Sounds like kid told Mom, Mom ran to media?
That being said don't get me wrong, Dumbass Joke Teller Coach is the instigator of all this, what a stupid illustation to use. "Hang you with a rope."? Are some of the Central Oregan red neck/southern transplants stuck in 1962? Very strange choice of words. Lets hope it was a badd attempt at humor and as so many in the media/entertaintainment try to go to, that being the shock/rude card passed off as humor, was that coachs real motive? With the media dumbasses running with this, i think the coach is toast and more damage ends up coming to the kid then good due to the exposure.
Conclusion i think it may have been very possible for Mom to confront coach and he issue a sincere apology and all this be done. That having been said, Coach instigated this. Lesson to us all dont make stupid jokes and esp with media pot stirrers running around.
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Sorry not going to blame the media or the mother like Reality. As if it's not possible for a high school student to know about slavery and images/phrases that came from time? Must have been the old mom or the media right? ::) Why is it so hard to believe the kid would be upset? Teenagers don't like to be singled out or made to feel like they are not accepted. You tell me what is worse then having your team's coach, whom everyone looks up to, single you out based on your skin color? Save the poor-coach-is-getting-blasted-by-the-media bs. The evil media is only hurting him right? They couldn't possibly be making this kid an outcast among his old friends on the team huh? He isn't going to be known as the kid who got coach fired the rest of his high school days I guess.
(Some White) People fail to realize that even if you are joking it's still racist. The coach is a racist. Also as an adult, he should have used better judgment when trying to "joke" with a child. Do you think if an Asian player showed up late and he said "I'm going to make you go work on the railroad now" that it would just be the media? It's perfectly understandable for people to get upset when they are singled out over something as stupid as skin color. Since when did the media create that it was not okay to say? So angry mobs hanging people didn't really make people upset until the media showed up? Media or no media. A Coach should know better and shouldn't be saying things that could possibly hurt everyone buying into the team concept.
I don't know about you guys but some of the coaches I've had playing sports had a real influence on my life. A lot of NBA players are still close with their high school and college coaches. You don't want to slap the guy on the hand over something such as being a bigot. He has too much influence on these kids minds to not lose his job over this.
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There are several things I've got to say about this.
1) What happens at a team practice should stay at a team practice. The kid, whether offended, upset, embarrassed, or whatever, should have taken it up with the coach himself. Being a part of a team involves TRUSTING your teammates - and that includes the coach.
Conclusion 1: The kid should have never been part of the team, because he was obviously not ready to give his teammates the benefit of the doubt.
2) This is another example of people being overly sensitive. Should I claim religious persecution if my boss says, sending me in to a meeting, "I'm throwing you to the lions"? I say no. Certain things - "string you up", "tie a rope around your neck," "throw you to the lions," etc - pass from history into analogy. The comment is NOT racist. If the player had been white, it would have been no big deal. The fact that people have to change language around one person is infintely more racist than the comment made.
Conclusion 2: Fighting racism by claiming offense at everything is among the best ways of continuing and/or teaching racism.
3) While the coach chose a poor analogy, the fact that the rest of the team is standing behind him means that they didn't think it was a big deal. To turn it into one sounds like the work of a media outlet.
Conclusion 3: Thursday, I watched a coach belittle a 7th grader - publicly - during a timeout. Apparently, public belittlement isn't as big a story as a smart-aleck comment about a player being late to practice.
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There are several things I've got to say about this.
1) What happens at a team practice should stay at a team practice. The kid, whether offended, upset, embarrassed, or whatever, should have taken it up with the coach himself. Being a part of a team involves TRUSTING your teammates - and that includes the coach.
He's a child. Not a man. This is not a job, it suppose to be fun. You actually believe a teenager is going to take up a race debate with his coach on his own? Not happening. You are using your grown man way of dealing with things/thinking and applying it to a child.
Conclusion 1: The kid should have never been part of the team, because he was obviously not ready to give his teammates the benefit of the doubt.
WOW...I honestly expect more from you Joe. It's not about giving the benefit of the doubt. Even if it was a "joke" it was still racist. The coach shouldn't be the coach of the team because he doesn't think before he talks, he is setting a horrible example for the children who look up to him, and he is singling players out. The exact opposite of what a GOOD coach would do. The kid has every right to be upset. I explained in my post that not only is it a f'd up image to think about (I would hope for ANYONE) but he also singled him out. A teenager wants to be accepted and doesn't want to be singled out negatively like that. Nothing is worse then singling out someone based on their skin color or religion in that setting (school)
2) This is another example of people being overly sensitive. Should I claim religious persecution if my boss says, sending me in to a meeting, "I'm throwing you to the lions"? I say no. Certain things - "string you up", "tie a rope around your neck," "throw you to the lions," etc - pass from history into analogy. The comment is NOT racist. If the player had been white, it would have been no big deal. The fact that people have to change language around one person is infintely more racist than the comment made.
Sorry but your people haven't been thrown to the lions in thousands of years. People were getting hanged 50 years ago. Horrible horrible horrible HORRIBLE example.
If the player had been white then saying he would hang him would have no weight behind it because.........Black people didn't chase white people around to hang them for no reason in this country. Now if a black coach made reference to the Moors attacking Italy to an Italian player then maybe you would have an example to compare this to.
Conclusion 2: Fighting racism by claiming offense at everything is among the best ways of continuing and/or teaching racism.
I believe ignoring blatant racism by playing the "joke" card does the best job of continuing racism. Slip up at the lip and shout something racist? You were just joking! Is he an insult comedian now?
Fighting racism by making sure young children know it is not ok to joke about hanging people sounds like a good way to send a message.
3) While the coach chose a poor analogy, the fact that the rest of the team is standing behind him means that they didn't think it was a big deal. To turn it into one sounds like the work of a media outlet.
Of course they did. For one they are children who don't fully understand what is going on. Second, the guy could literally rape a cheerleader and some of them would stand behind him. That is the influence a coach has on his players at a young age. That is exactly why being a bigot is not okay. That stuff will easily rub off on the children.
Conclusion 3: Thursday, I watched a coach belittle a 7th grader - publicly - during a timeout. Apparently, public belittlement isn't as big a story as a smart-aleck comment about a player being late to practice.
Yelling at a player and making him have to do some kind of exercise as punishment is apart of sports. Yelling overly racist comments at him over being late for practice is an entirely different thing. It wasn't a smart-aleck comment is was down right racist.
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I agree with westkoast in that the coach is really at fault for blowing the situation up. Now its the kid's fault for showing up late to practice and that can't be excused. As a coach you yell at him, you make him run laps, you don't invoke the act of "lynching" ESPECIALLY to a black kid. Some situations are just too different to be handled by nonchalance. Some situations the rules don't apply the same way. Even if the coach did say it in a joking matter, the subconcious connotation is bad enough.
"Throwing to the lions" doesn't apply because its so far back in history (2,000 years ago) that it doesn't even enter the human conscience as a literal threat. Lynching was being done a few short decades ago (in the specific situation of white people doing it to black people) and depending on the town in PRESENT day American may consititute a legitamate, literal threat. We had white kids hang ropes from trees in their schoolyard in Louisiana just this past year.
A jewish player shows up late to practice and his coach yells, "Next time I'll have you drawn and quartered!"; doesn't have the same meaning as, "Next time I'm going to throw you in the oven!" Both are gruesome deaths and show a poor choice of words (whether meant as a joke or not), but one of those threats is going to affect that Jewish player exponentially more than the other one. Same situation, different rules.
Depending on the situation, I'd react completely different to being called a sand ni**er or a towel-head. A good friend says it in jest amongst close friends, sure. Someone who doesn't know me says it or its said in public, you better believe I'm going to be angry and hurt. Same comment, different rules.
Now I don't know this Coach Hiatt from Adam. He could very well be an upstanding, racially tolerant, great human being; he should have thought about the situation a little more carefully before letting something like that fly. I think he is paying a dear price for something which had he taken an extra second to think about probably wouldn't have said in the first place.
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ziggy,
Real quick.....
I didn't read anyones responses and I don't have time right now to put all my thoughts down, but IMO it's a very simple issue.
Anybody who has had a serious relationship with anyone should know this.....
It's NOT what you say or how you say it.
It's NOT what you do or how you do it.
It's how you make the other person feel.
Those rules need to be applied to everyday life in these times. Coach screwed up, end of story. You CAN NOT criticize the outcome after that screw up.
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sand ni**er
What? How do you even pronounce "**"? Is that a Spurs joke?
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Frak Joe where do I start?
There are several things I've got to say about this.
1) What happens at a team practice should stay at a team practice. The kid, whether offended, upset, embarrassed, or whatever, should have taken it up with the coach himself. Being a part of a team involves TRUSTING your teammates - and that includes the coach.
Conclusion 1: The kid should have never been part of the team, because he was obviously not ready to give his teammates the benefit of the doubt.
You are so wrong you four-eyed egotistical SLUT!
In this day and age that is one of the stupidest stances you can take. With kids having ojects rammed up their arses, beaten, humiliated, and in some cases KILLED, you do NOT take the "what happens in team practice" stance anymore. "Hazing/Team bonding" BS has probably going on for ages but it didn't get reported or sensationalized as much in the past because of that same attitude. If I saw coach Knight grab my kid by the neck I would kick the shit out of coach then make him eat it. If some kids/coaches shove something up my kids arse, you can bet ALL their names are going on a little piece of paper. You cross the line on a kid and you are just ASKING/BEGGING for someone to cross the line on your arse.
Like wk posted, it's a completely different argument cause it was the COACH who said it and the coach carries a lot of weight in that kids world. Since nothing physcial was done to the kid I would be ok if coach got suspended then be required to attend some "sensitivey" classes before being put in charge of kids again. That poor kids school life is ruined, there is no getting it back cause he is now a polarizing figure at school.
As far as your ridiculous comment about him not being a "team" kid in the first place, IMO that dumbass coach should NOT have been put in charge of children in any way shape or form unless it's a KKK school.
2) This is another example of people being overly sensitive. Should I claim religious persecution if my boss says, sending me in to a meeting, "I'm throwing you to the lions"? I say no. Certain things - "string you up", "tie a rope around your neck," "throw you to the lions," etc - pass from history into analogy. The comment is NOT racist. If the player had been white, it would have been no big deal. The fact that people have to change language around one person is infintely more racist than the comment made.
Conclusion 2: Fighting racism by claiming offense at everything is among the best ways of continuing and/or teaching racism.
WRONG AGAIN! Everyone in this country has a RIGHT to be "sensative". You cannot assume you are amoungst friends every second of every minute of every hour of every day. I had a girlfriend that would call me a wetback everytime I got out of the shower and of course I didn't mind or get all "sensative". On the flip if some teacher were to call me that there would have been trouble. I probably would have dealt with it right there and then but not every kid is the same. My oldest has gotten kicked out of classes for calling teachers out for dumb comments they have made in class, eerily similar to what the kid in story had to deal with but my second oldest would have a hard time dealing with it and would probably hide his feelings about it. So you cannot assume people will be able to handle your allegidly benign (sic?) racists remarks.
3) While the coach chose a poor analogy, the fact that the rest of the team is standing behind him means that they didn't think it was a big deal. To turn it into one sounds like the work of a media outlet.
Conclusion 3: Thursday, I watched a coach belittle a 7th grader - publicly - during a timeout. Apparently, public belittlement isn't as big a story as a smart-aleck comment about a player being late to practice.
Shows you how much power that coach has over his kids or maybe even shows the mentality of those kids. IMO the coach is either a closet bigot or stupid for not knowing what "hanging" could possibly mean to a black kid. Either way that coach should probably not be a mentor to kids unless he gets some additional education. Public humiliation of a child is wrong anyway you cut it.
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Ridiculous over reaction, RIDICULOUS! You got that 'Koast and WOW? I am Native American and Hispanic, so I know whar racist comments are, believe me. But this world is just plain STUPIDLY over-sensitive, the way I read the article, the coach chose a poorly thought out comment, IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!! It makes him stupid, PERIOD!
In spite of what all you PC wet your panties morons may think, there IS NOT a racist lurking around every corner waiting to issue some thinly veiled threat that might scare your little sissy, whiney, crying little girl (oops, was that sexist?!) feelers!!! There are racists to be sure abut sometime there are just stupid comments, and vile ambulance chasers (that ARE waiting around every corner) waiting to pounce like rabid dogs on any little foible someone might make, IT MAKES ME SICK! Get over yourselves, and quit looking for the white sheet in everyones closet!!!!!
And watch your language while your at it!!!!
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Ridiculous over reaction, RIDICULOUS! You got that 'Koast and WOW? I am Native American and Hispanic, so I know whar racist comments are, believe me. But this world is just plain STUPIDLY over-sensitive, the way I read the article, the coach chose a poorly thought out comment, IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!! It makes him stupid, PERIOD!
In spite of what all you PC wet your panties morons may think, there IS NOT a racist lurking around every corner waiting to issue some thinly veiled threat that might scare your little sissy, whiney, crying little girl (oops, was that sexist?!) feelers!!! There are racists to be sure abut sometime there are just stupid comments, and vile ambulance chasers (that ARE waiting around every corner) waiting to pounce like rabid dogs on any little foible someone might make, IT MAKES ME SICK! Get over yourselves, and quit looking for the white sheet in everyones closet!!!!!
And watch your language while your at it!!!!
No it makes him a stupid racist. Sorry LFD the coach has too much influence over young children's minds to be able to get away with racial jokes of that magnitude over the player being late to a practice.
It's far from being a pc wet-your-panties-moron (though I think it's pretty moronic to call people names because they disagree with you, way to take a page out of Reality's book there buddy) because he is literally talking about KILLING someone using terms that described HORRIBLE acts against humans. I believe each human has the right to live. Hanging people because they were black I would say is in violation of HUMAN RIGHTS. Basic rights EVERYONE should have. Those come into play when talking about here when discussing things such as people hanging other people for no reason. If he would have said he would beat him with his belt, made him run a thousand laps, or anything a NORMAL coach would do then it's not a big deal. Saying he is going to tie a rope around his neck and hang him is NOT OKAY. I don't care how MACHO you want to make yourself sound. Being called a racial slur is one thing and having one of the most despicable acts I've seen by "civilized" people described to you over being late is another. I am not going to give someone who makes a comment like that the benefit of the doubt this was the first time they were being racist.
Would you be A-OK if you showed up late to work and your boss told you 'Hay Dan, your late so I am going to throw a blanket with some disease on it all over you and your family' ??? Whether you will honestly admit it or not, I don't think you would be to happy to hear that (As that would be more along the lines of what was said to this CHILD then your example of being called a hispanic racial slur) Now multiply that by 5 when you take into consideration this was a CHILD and a coach is someone they look up too a great deal.
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Ridiculous over reaction, RIDICULOUS! You got that 'Koast and WOW? I am Native American and Hispanic, so I know whar racist comments are, believe me. But this world is just plain STUPIDLY over-sensitive, the way I read the article, the coach chose a poorly thought out comment, IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!! It makes him stupid, PERIOD!
In spite of what all you PC wet your panties morons may think, there IS NOT a racist lurking around every corner waiting to issue some thinly veiled threat that might scare your little sissy, whiney, crying little girl (oops, was that sexist?!) feelers!!! There are racists to be sure abut sometime there are just stupid comments, and vile ambulance chasers (that ARE waiting around every corner) waiting to pounce like rabid dogs on any little foible someone might make, IT MAKES ME SICK! Get over yourselves, and quit looking for the white sheet in everyones closet!!!!!
And watch your language while your at it!!!!
I agree with everything you said but my/your level of tolerance does NOT apply to everyone nor SHOULD it. Do you really think for ONE second I'm PC?
And watch your language while your at it!!!!
This is exactly what I was going to counter with but you beat me to the punch. You are either poking fun at your self for your own hypocrisy or you are just displaying it. I really don't know which because I know you're an intelligent poster but I also know everyone has a "blind spot" or two.
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From the interpretation of this reaction on the board, it would appear there is still latent racism in this country. But in this instance, I seriously doubt the coach in question was being racist, so much as insensitive.
I was handing candy out one Halloween to several kids. As they left, I said, "You boys take care now," to which one spun around and yelled "Don't call me boy!". So do I seriously have to rethink everything I say around people of color?. I can't. Neither can they, as it turns out, or no one is going to ever talk to one another again. Too controversial. People will continue to say inappropriate things long after all of us have been worm feed for several decades.
But the only racist thing that will be resolved every time is that someone who probably never meant to offend is going to get to do the walk of shame and never, ever, on any occassion, on any level, on any media court of public opinion ever have a chance to redeem himself.
THAT is why racism will fester for as long as you can imagine into the future. NOT that these things are ever said.
I can assure you, if the meaning of the statement by that coach was meant to inspire images of lynchings, the tone of the coaches words would have left no doubt in the minds of every young man who heard them. That it did not tells me his intent was elsewhere and he just said the wrong thing, which could have been pointed out at the time and then could have been judged as to intent.
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One other thing and I seriously think you all should consider this.
You are never going to solve the racism issues of this country by bludgeoning a man who said something inappropriately and will never have any opportunity now to renounce or recant the statement. If this were to happen every time, we cannot ever live side-by-side in any sort of harmony.
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I don't have time to fully delve into my thoughts on the matter, but I have to say I pretty much agree with JoMal to a T. Political Correctness is a pendulum, and after the brutalities minorities went through in previous generations, now everything, despite its intent, is being taken as the worst possible scenario. Rope was used to hang people long before there was even a notion of what "african american" was, and just because it was said to an African American doesn't mean it was a racist remark. Inappropriate? Maybe, but even that I say it's only inappropriate because people are looking to interpret it that way.
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Rope was used to hang people long before there was even a notion of what "african american" was, and just because it was said to an African American doesn't mean it was a racist remark.
In the same token tt also doesn't mean it wasn't racist either. While I see your and JoMaL's point I think you guys want to give him the benefit of the doubt because you two are not racists. Sure a rope was used to hang people before it was used by people in the South to hang African Americans BUT it is closely associated with the Klan and negative attacks on African Americans. Again JoMaL your calling a kid a 'boy' and him getting upset is not the same situation. You simply called him a boy and he got mad. It was one word. Saying an entire phrase is more then a slip of a tongue. He actually continued on without stopping to think maybe he shouldn't be saying that. Now it was silly for a child to get mad at you calling him a boy. I don't really think its silly for a child to get mad because his coach told him he was going to tie a rope around his neck and hang him. You know as opposed to just making him run a million laps or do a billion push ups......like every single coach i've ever had has handled that type of situation.
Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I think a coach showing such poor judgement and having so much control over the young minds that it is not ok. Did anyone think that maybe these types of comments have flown out of his mouth prior? Sorry but I don't think talking about lynching ANYONE is the kind of comment that just slips out. Calling myself a mayonaise moneky, sure. Going into a bit more detail I don't think so.
The one thing that seems to be getting ignored in this thread is the context in which it was said. The kid was the star player on the team. High chance is that the coach was UPSET he was late. So how could he be joking when I've yet to meet a coach who was HAPPY when a player was late to a practice or a game. Seems like what happens with typical racists....they get heated and something comes out or they get drunk and something comes out. True colors tend to show in that situation for those types of people.
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I personally believe that whether the coach is racist or not is a complete SIDE issue. Wouldn't surprise me either way whether he is or isn't. Wouldn't surprise me if he's got clan sheets in the garage or adopted an orphan from Mozambique. Really don't care. I think it sidesteps the crux of the argument completely and unfortunately stalls the debate.
The real issue at hand is whether the comment made was appropriate or not. Period. I say it was not appropriate. I believe most on this board agree. Sure there's various reasons why a comment like that is inappropriate and one can delve into those without acting as judge, jury, and executioner for a guy based on one off-hand remark; and neither should that be the fulcrum of the debate.
With respect to the issue of over-sensitivity and having political correctness applied beyond its arena, I fully agree with JoMal and Derek.
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The one thing that seems to be getting ignored in this thread is the context in which it was said. The kid was the star player on the team. High chance is that the coach was UPSET he was late. So how could he be joking when I've yet to meet a coach who was HAPPY when a player was late to a practice or a game. Seems like what happens with typical racists....they get heated and something comes out or they get drunk and something comes out. True colors tend to show in that situation for those types of people.
So because he's upset he was late, he's a racist?
Is a high school coach now not allowed to be upset?
Did you ever play high school sports? Did you coach ever yell? Did he ever get upset?
If not, he probably wasn't a very good coach.
Had he said this to a white player, this would have been a non-issue. But because there was a POSSIBILITY that line could be used by a racist, we've now concluded that the guy is racist. We don't know anything about the guy, his feelings, his thoughts, his past. But we, as a national stage, have already convicted a guy. And your statements there ("Seems like what happens with typical racists"), is point and center the problem. And he'll never get that back
The guy was likely upset. He wanted to draw the comparison to punishment. If he asks himself "well, if this were a Caucasian, I would say "do it again next time, and you'll be hanged", implying that he'll feel my wrath, but since this guys african american, let me come up with a different way to yell at him", not only is that impractical (when you're made, have you EVER thought things out that thoroughly?), but it's also furthering the racial divide in america, IMO.
Look, had it been a statement that could ONLY be construed as racist in nature, I would agree. But using a hanging reference is way to broad and general to assume a guys motive and determine a guy is racist.
It's a shame that everytime a guy makes a mistakes he's immediately labeled, tried, and convicted in mere seconds. THAT, to me, furthers the racial divide.
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The one thing that seems to be getting ignored in this thread is the context in which it was said. The kid was the star player on the team. High chance is that the coach was UPSET he was late. So how could he be joking when I've yet to meet a coach who was HAPPY when a player was late to a practice or a game. Seems like what happens with typical racists....they get heated and something comes out or they get drunk and something comes out. True colors tend to show in that situation for those types of people.
So because he's upset he was late, he's a racist?
Is a high school coach now not allowed to be upset?
Did you ever play high school sports? Did you coach ever yell? Did he ever get upset?
If not, he probably wasn't a very good coach.
Had he said this to a white player, this would have been a non-issue. But because there was a POSSIBILITY that line could be used by a racist, we've now concluded that the guy is racist. We don't know anything about the guy, his feelings, his thoughts, his past. But we, as a national stage, have already convicted a guy. And your statements there ("Seems like what happens with typical racists"), is point and center the problem. And he'll never get that back
The guy was likely upset. He wanted to draw the comparison to punishment. If he asks himself "well, if this were a Caucasian, I would say "do it again next time, and you'll be hanged", implying that he'll feel my wrath, but since this guys african american, let me come up with a different way to yell at him", not only is that impractical (when you're made, have you EVER thought things out that thoroughly?), but it's also furthering the racial divide in america, IMO.
Look, had it been a statement that could ONLY be construed as racist in nature, I would agree. But using a hanging reference is way to broad and general to assume a guys motive and determine a guy is racist.
It's a shame that everytime a guy makes a mistakes he's immediately labeled, tried, and convicted in mere seconds. THAT, to me, furthers the racial divide.
I consider Dabod's opinion the crux of the matter, and westkoast' inference that the man is a racist as well. While many people are certainly latent racists (this upcoming election has quelled any thoughts otherwise), this coach has had no vetting of his past or of his intent whatsoever. We DO know the star player took the reference as one of lynching black people. The coach found this out once the mother of the player took the issue to the school board. Can any one of us stand up to the strutiny of our words if brought back to disembowel us in this public way?
But if the coach had intended to be an obvious racist, the correct and completely inappropriate statement he should have made was "I ought to get a rope and lynch you with it." That would have left no doubt. The coach must not have been thinking thoroughly racist thoughts then, but was, you know, just angry the player showed up late, is all and wanted to make the point he was just mad about that.
Does any one else also find it odd that, other then the original statement, not one word was mentioned about what the coach has felt regarding what he said? Was he allowed to explain himself? Has he at least been allowed to meet with the player and his mother to apologize for it? What has been done except to suspend him and "investigate" him, whatever that may entail.
Based on that, how else can someone like westkoast NOT conclude the man is a 'typical racist"?
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The coach isn't a racist moron, he's just a moron
and sadly there are just too many of those in this world, and they are allowed to breed.
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The coach isn't a racist moron, he's just a moron
and sadly there are just too many of those in this world, and they are allowed to breed.
And it is attitudes just like this which created lynching parties of black people in the first place.
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And it is attitudes just like this which created lynching parties of black people in the first place.
I'm prejudiced against the stupid, of any skin color...I find that most people who aren't stupid tend to be so.
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And it is attitudes just like this which created lynching parties of black people in the first place.
I'm prejudiced against the stupid, of any skin color...I find that most people who aren't stupid tend to be so.
Right. so you've concluded he's a moron, again without any knowledge of his past, and based on one quote
And I'm sure you've never said, typed, or written anything that can be misconstrued enough to make a "moron" out of you, based on one line.
Our predisposition to make immediate judgments is a huge problem in our society.
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And it is attitudes just like this which created lynching parties of black people in the first place.
I'm prejudiced against the stupid, of any skin color...I find that most people who aren't stupid tend to be so.
And I find that people who think they are smarter then everyone else tend not to be.
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Frack it
Not worth the time effort or oxygen, it's like reading bodners posts when ever i write something, it's just a waste of time
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I don't have time to fully delve into my thoughts on the matter, but I have to say I pretty much agree with JoMal to a T. Political Correctness is a pendulum, and after the brutalities minorities went through in previous generations, now everything, despite its intent, is being taken as the worst possible scenario. Rope was used to hang people long before there was even a notion of what "african american" was, and just because it was said to an African American doesn't mean it was a racist remark. Inappropriate? Maybe, but even that I say it's only inappropriate because people are looking to interpret it that way.
Honestly, when I hear anything to do with hangings and ropes I think of the wild wild west, blacks and suicide (in that order). I refuse to excuse someone in that type of position because a blatant bigot like me would know better.
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Frack it
Not worth the time effort or oxygen, it's like reading bodners posts when ever i write something, it's just a waste of time
I am getting the suggestion that happens often with you.
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And I find that people who think they are smarter then everyone else tend not to be.
I know YOU know of ONE exception.... ;D
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Frack it
Not worth the time effort or oxygen, it's like reading bodners posts when ever i write something, it's just a waste of time
I think you're bright enough to know when you are in the presence of greater "brightness", but I'm starting to doubt it.
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I think Derek and JoMal get my point, I aplaud their typical astuteness, a stupid comment DOES NOT a racist make, it merely makes it a stupid comment.
I certainly would never accuse WOW of being anything close to resembling sensitive, indeed the opposite is more clearly the case, which is why I was a little shocked at his intitial post, either that or I was too obtuse to pick up his real meaning. 'Koast you strike me as a strident whiner on this topic, typical of a PC crybaby, do you see how quicky I judged and convicted you without knowing all the facts of why you feel the way you do? Did you not do the same thing to a man YOU HAVE NEVER MET AND KNOW NOTHING ABOUT simply because you have a preconceived notion of what a "typical racist" would do? The difference here is I have known you on this board for years and you have posted several times on this thread so your feelings and meaning are clear, not open to interpretation, this coach made a stupid comment and you're ready to throw him the the lions (oops, was that anti christian?) Do you see how ridiculous this is?
I am so tired of everyone wearing their feeling on their sleeves and looking to get offended over the slightest thing, it is like the 22 year old Southwest airlines flight attendent who, in an effort get passengers to hurry up and take their seats got on the PA and said: "eeny meeny miney mo, pick a seat we gotta go" and was promptly sued by 2 older black ladies who thought she was directing a racial slur at them, when she was merely being "typically" Southwest funny, it makes me crazy!!!
Until people stop looking for a reason to be offended, race will always be a cudgel used to pummel anyone who doesn't walk on egg shells around the overly sensitive wimps among us.
And no, WOW I wasn't being hypocritical nor was I being ironic with my watch the language comment, my calling the PC types what I called them hardly rose to the level of your "colorful" language, are you merely being PC when it suits your mood? :D
'Koast you simply offended me by comparing me to whom you did, I hardly need to sink to that level to get my point across, pity you are too simple to grasp that concept, was that offensive to you? Was I being an anti-simpleton? Or is that a simpletonist? I am ready to scratch my eyes out over this nonsense!
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Frack it
Not worth the time effort or oxygen, it's like reading bodners posts when ever i write something, it's just a waste of time
I am getting the suggestion that happens often with you.
Jem has a slight persecution complex, which, when coupled with his slight superiority complex, usually lead to run-ins with posters and/or moderators.
His usually response when someone tries to analyze him is "don't pretend to know me", which he's done to me numerous times, both on this site and realgm.
He also deals in absolutes. Notice his saying of "he is a moron", not "he did something stupid".
So why am I bringing this up? After ca 4 years of posting on message boards along with jem, he's right, I don't know jemagee the person. But, if I can't make a correct psychological profile and intelligence test of John Magee over 4 years of posting together, which probably total hundreds of pages of direct quotes, how can you know the psychology and intellect of a guy from one second hand quote in which he's never gotten a chance to even defend himself?
The correct answer is you can't, and you've said so yourself dozens of times.
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I say:
I personally believe that whether the coach is racist or not is a complete SIDE issue.
This comment is followed by:
Derek:
So because he's upset he was late, he's a racist?
JoMal:
I consider Dabod's opinion the crux of the matter, and westkoast' inference that the man is a racist as well.
jemagee:
The coach isn't a racist moron, he's just a moron
WayOutWest:
I loved Will Smith's movie, "Wild, Wild West"
8)
Am I here? Do I exist?
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And no, WOW I wasn't being hypocritical nor was I being ironic with my watch the language comment, my calling the PC types what I called them hardly rose to the level of your "colorful" language, are you merely being PC when it suits your mood? :D
All I'm saying is cursing does not offend me like it offends you and MY kids. We all have different levels of tolerance about everything under the sun. My kids are always telling/yelling at me to watch my language when I'm driving because of all those freaking Asians on the road....whoops....I mean all those people who make questionable driving decisions on the road.
I know you don't like foul language on this board and I respect that for the most part, but I must admit Adam had an easier time resisting that apple.
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Jem has a slight persecution complex, which, when coupled with his slight superiority complex, usually lead to run-ins with posters and/or moderators.
How can Jem have a superiority complex?
That's like saying JoldMal is uncomfortable with his good looks, or weakkoast with his vast work experience, or Reality with his infinite b-ball knowledge.
Pffttt..... ::)
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I say:
Who?
ASKED YOU?
STFU!
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Jem has a slight persecution complex, which, when coupled with his slight superiority complex, usually lead to run-ins with posters and/or moderators.
How can Jem have a superiority complex?
That's like saying JoldMal is uncomfortable with his good looks, or weakkoast with his vast work experience, or Reality with his infinite b-ball knowledge.
Pffttt..... ::)
Calling me smart AND good looking in the same thread.
You little beener, I didn't know you cared.
8)
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Jem has a slight persecution complex, which, when coupled with his slight superiority complex, usually lead to run-ins with posters and/or moderators.
Was that a run-in I had with jemagee? Thanks for letting me know. Sometimes I miss the little things in life.
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Jem has a slight persecution complex, which, when coupled with his slight superiority complex, usually lead to run-ins with posters and/or moderators.
Was that a run-in I had with jemagee? Thanks for letting me know. Sometimes I miss the little things in life.
That was in response to his post directed towards me, which you quoted.
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And no, WOW I wasn't being hypocritical nor was I being ironic with my watch the language comment, my calling the PC types what I called them hardly rose to the level of your "colorful" language, are you merely being PC when it suits your mood? :D
All I'm saying is cursing does not offend me like it offends you and MY kids. We all have different levels of tolerance about everything under the sun. My kids are always telling/yelling at me to watch my language when I'm driving because of all those freaking Asians on the road....whoops....I mean all those people who make questionable driving decisions on the road.
I know you don't like foul language on this board and I respect that for the most part, but I must admit Adam had an easier time resisting that apple.
You know WOW, there is almost nothing I agree with you on idealogically, but your candor is as refreshing as the morning dew, and I do respect it!
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I say:
I personally believe that whether the coach is racist or not is a complete SIDE issue.
This comment is followed by:
Derek:
So because he's upset he was late, he's a racist?
JoMal:
I consider Dabod's opinion the crux of the matter, and westkoast' inference that the man is a racist as well.
jemagee:
The coach isn't a racist moron, he's just a moron
WayOutWest:
I loved Will Smith's movie, "Wild, Wild West"
8)
Am I here? Do I exist?
I think that's everyone's way of saying, "I disagree."
And, so it's said, I disagree. Whether the coach is a racist or not is *NOT* a side issue, but is fundamental to the equation. If the INTENT was racist, then there's a huge problem. If the INTENT was NOT racist, then the problem becomes one of communication and trust.
Even you yourself said that it's a different situation when it's a friend joking around versus a stranger hurling an insult. This, to me, is the CRITICAL issue. As a coach, YOU ARE A PART OF THE TEAM. There is a certain level of implied trust. A major part of that level of trust is that the coach HAD BETTER NOT BE a racist; a racist coach is by definition a failure. If he is, by working with the player at all, he's being hypocritcal, and as a result, he cannot be trusted by the team, because he's hiding an agenda. In equal measure, a player MUST NOT be walking around with a chip on his shoulder, because if he is, HE'S hiding an agenda, and, just as the coach in the previous example, HE cannot be trusted.
The reaction of the OTHER players is EXTREMELY telling. If the coach stepped out-of-line, part of the responsiblity of the team AND ESPECIALLY THE TEAM CAPTAINS/LEADERS is to let the coach know he's stepped out-of-line. A strong team keeps that all in-house. And it says something about the player in that he DIDN'T go to his coach, DIDN'T go to the assistant coaches, DIDN'T go to his fellow players, DIDN'T go to the team captains, but ran home to Mama. I said it before, and I'll say it again: the kid should never have been on the team. He does not have the requisite level of trust.
I also have to admit that "It happened 2000 years ago versus 50 years ago" means precious little to me, because most of the people posting that WEREN'T EVEN ALIVE 50 years ago. Heck, *I* wasn't alive 50 years ago. If it's not a part of what is commonplace during my lifetime, I'm not going to take it seriously. Otherwise, the obvious question becomes "How many years do we have to wait?" 100? 250? 1000?
JoMal's point about a kid being upset by being referred to as one of several "boys" is the ultimate example of political correctness run amok. Makes you want to reply, "Grow up, kid, and then you can be offended."
Let's just look at Ted on the board as an example of the idea of TRUST. How many Mormon jokes have been made on here? If he wanted to be offended every time, he's certainly well within his right. How many of us has he actually met - to see UP CLOSE whether the jokes are in fun, or actually someone being classless?
If a person who has NEVER MET YOU can have a sense of humor regarding something VERY PERSONAL, then there needs to be a bit more understanding between a COACH and HIS PLAYER.
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I think you're bright enough to know when you are in the presence of greater "brightness", but I'm starting to doubt it.
Every thread ends the same way. Go back and look at the brief posting history.
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Calling me smart AND good looking in the same thread.
You little beener, I didn't know you cared.
8)
I think I just injured myself. Holy ROTFL!
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Was that a run-in I had with jemagee? Thanks for letting me know. Sometimes I miss the little things in life.
I've had one of those. You'll know you've been there when you come away from a thread feeling like you're really really smart--maybe even smarter than you really are.
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Two serious thoughts I've had on this thread.
1. I fall pretty much in line with Derek and JoMal on this one. From what I know of the guy, all I can say is he made a mistake. I just know that I have made my share of mistakes. I've said possibly offensive things at work to women, men, Latinos, African-Americans, Asians; I even had a Jerry Seinfeld moment and jokingly called my Miqmaq boss an indian giver. Luckily he has a sense of humor.
I work with a very capable, intelligent woman named Heidi. One morning a couple of weeks I walked by her desk and said "Heidi-Ho!" (yeah, I know ::)). Well, she decided to have some fun with me and feigned offense at "being called a whore." Needless to say I was mortified and apologized profusely, and she had a good laugh at my expense. But even something that innocent can potentially get you into trouble.
Now this coach said something much more dangerous. And I don't know where he's coming from because I don't know him. He was probably mad. He probably wanted to make a point to the kid. If I could know one thing about the coach, I would want to know how he reacted. Did he try to apologize when it became clear he had offended the boy and his mother? That's key for me. If the guy shows remorse, that means he's at least trying, and I give him "some" benefit of the doubt. If he's unrepentant, then I feel more comfortable in pronouncing judgement.
I know a guy who is a blatent racist. He could care less what people think about him. He throws around vile words like beaner, camel jockey, gook, and coon with impunity. His friends and family shudder and shake their heads, but the guy just goes on happy go lucky without a care in the world. And then you have people like JoMal, who, I would guess, was probably very concerned about his exchange with those trick or treaters. That experience would bother me for days afterward.
It's a tough question that I am undoubtedly unqualified to answer. Do you ask people to ignore a likely innocent remark at the risk of letting a real racist go unchecked? Did those young men really think JoMal was being a racist when he said "You boys be careful"? Or did they know they were busting a good man's chops over basically nothing. Sometimes I wonder. And then I wonder if I even have the right to wonder.
2. Jemagee has caught a lot of flack in his short time. And while I, from my admittedly limited exposure to him, think Derek has him pretty much pegged, I do believe jemagee adds more to the board than he takes away. The board is much more lively with two comic foils, and although he sometimes seems close to the kind of meltdown that would precipitate an exile from a staggering fifth message board, I hope he can stick it out. Because he at least makes me feel smart once in a while. ;D
Joe, I appreciate the kind words. I like the people on this board, so the jokes are taken as they are given, as jokes.
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Let's just look at Ted on the board as an example of the idea of TRUST. How many Mormon jokes have been made on here? If he wanted to be offended every time, he's certainly well within his right. How many of us has he actually met - to see UP CLOSE whether the jokes are in fun, or actually someone being classless?
Jokes?
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I know a guy who is a blatent racist. He could care less what people think about him. He throws around vile words like beaner, camel jockey, gook, and coon with impunity. His friends and family shudder and shake their heads, but the guy just goes on happy go lucky without a care in the world.
LIAR!!!! I refuse to read another word....until 2morrow anyway.....
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I know a guy who is a blatent racist. He could care less what people think about him. He throws around vile words like beaner, camel jockey, gook, and coon with impunity. His friends and family shudder and shake their heads, but the guy just goes on happy go lucky without a care in the world.
LIAR!!!! I refuse to read another word....until 2morrow anyway.....
I have proof that Ted is a liar!!! I don't have any friends! HA!!! :-\
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I don't have any friends! HA!!! :-\
Awww . . . that pulled on my heart strings right there.
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It's a tough question that I am undoubtedly unqualified to answer. Do you ask people to ignore a likely innocent remark at the risk of letting a real racist go unchecked? Did those young men really think JoMal was being a racist when he said "You boys be careful"? Or did they know they were busting a good man's chops over basically nothing. Sometimes I wonder. And then I wonder if I even have the right to wonder.
The reference to my situation has been brought up several times, but it is what was inferred by the exchange I think is more important. These kids were about eight years old or so at the time. Where did he learn to react to the term "boy" in such a way? It was implanted by his parents, no doubt. While zero tolerance for blatant racism is needed, how was this at all thought to be a racist comment? Because his parents told him it was. But I also want you to think about how this situation differed from the coaches situation and how THAT kid handled it.
As was mentioned, these many years later I can still recall the incident very clearly. I also will never use that term as I used it ever again, even for non-black kids. That kid, for all his evident rudeness, made his feelings clear immediately. Had that football player done the same, we probably would not be having a discussion about it.
2. Jemagee has caught a lot of flack in his short time. And while I, from my admittedly limited exposure to him, think Derek has him pretty much pegged, I do believe jemagee adds more to the board than he takes away. The board is much more lively with two comic foils, and although he sometimes seems close to the kind of meltdown that would precipitate an exile from a staggering fifth message board, I hope he can stick it out. Because he at least makes me feel smart once in a while. ;D
As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
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I don't have any friends! HA!!! :-\
Awww . . . that pulled on my heart strings right there.
Dang....you tore my heart out with that comment. I really thought you would step up to my "friend" plate on that one. :( You really are NOT much of a Mormon..... :P
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As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
I find the fact that you wear adult diapers and need a drool resistant keyboard amusing.
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As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
Yea it was all gravy when just you and I were going back and forth LOL.
I stopped reading the rest of the comments because I've just chalked it up to "agree to disagree" a few pages ago. I think going the noose/hanging route was far away from a "joke" and has nothing to do with being PC.
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As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
I find the fact that you wear adult diapers and need a drool resistant keyboard amusing.
But at least I look good and seem smart while I soil the surrounding environment with my bodily fluids. How do YOU get away with it?
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As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
Yea it was all gravy when just you and I were going back and forth LOL.
I stopped reading the rest of the comments because I've just chalked it up to "agree to disagree" a few pages ago. I think going the noose/hanging route was far away from a "joke" and has nothing to do with being PC.
Yeah, and just how has being apathetic and ignorant worked out regarding racism the last 4,000 years?
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As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
Yea it was all gravy when just you and I were going back and forth LOL.
I stopped reading the rest of the comments because I've just chalked it up to "agree to disagree" a few pages ago. I think going the noose/hanging route was far away from a "joke" and has nothing to do with being PC.
Yeah, and just how has being apathetic and ignorant worked out regarding racism the last 4,000 years?
Not quite sure where you are trying to take this. I simply don't feel the need to express my opinion on this subject in the thread anymore. It would just be beating a dead horse at this point.
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As was mentioned, these many years later I can still recall the incident very clearly.
It's funny how some stuff sticks to you. I remember something that happened to me when I was 24 years old, dang...over a decade ago... :(..... I went to an audio/video store to buy a VCR for my parents. A friend of mine worked for them and he told me about this Christian dude who could NOT lie about anything, so customers would sometimes ask him "Is this the best price you can give me" and that would put him in an akward position and he would have to answer truthfully. So I was talking to this sales guy at a different store from the same chain working a deal and I got what I wanted. I started to tell him the story about the Christian dude and I said something like "I sometimes worry that I'm being ripped off or lied to by salses people...." at that point the guy got upset, said something like "I don't lie nor have I done anything to make you think I'm dishonest" and then he stormed off and walked out of the store. I felt really really bad about that cause the end to my sentence was going to be "BUT I don't feel that way when I come to these stores". I wasnt' going to insult him, in fact I was going to say how good I felt about dealing with this store and him but I never got my point across and for some odd reason I still remember that incident like it happend last week. Weird cause I've been an a-hole a million times and felt no guilt. Wierd....
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As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
I find the fact that you wear adult diapers and need a drool resistant keyboard amusing.
But at least I look good and seem smart while I soil the surrounding environment with my bodily fluids. How do YOU get away with it?
When I get caught I totally play the "race card".
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As I have found out, posters here tend to find my irritating, needling commentary amusing....when directed at someone else on the board.
Yea it was all gravy when just you and I were going back and forth LOL.
I stopped reading the rest of the comments because I've just chalked it up to "agree to disagree" a few pages ago. I think going the noose/hanging route was far away from a "joke" and has nothing to do with being PC.
Yeah, and just how has being apathetic and ignorant worked out regarding racism the last 4,000 years?
Not quite sure where you are trying to take this. I simply don't feel the need to express my opinion on this subject in the thread anymore. It would just be beating a dead horse at this point.
I ran his comment through my Repulican translator: "You are either with us or against us"
Yoda translator: "There is do and do not, there is no try".
Mr Miagi translator: "Right side of road ok. Left side of road ok. Middle of road SQUISH like a grape."
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Dang....you tore my heart out with that comment. I really thought you would step up to my "friend" plate on that one. :( You really are NOT much of a Mormon..... :P
You're just figuring this out?
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For an update on the resolution of the incident, another article is now on ziggy's link.
The coach publically apologized and resigned his coaching position, but continues as a teacher at the school.
http://www.ktvz.com/global/story.asp?s=9192687
Madras coach resigns, apologizes for comment
Posted: Oct 16, 2008 06:13 PM PDT
By Nina Mehlhaf, KTVZ.COM
The head football coach at Madras High School has apologized for an insensitive comment made to a player and resigned all coaching duties, Jefferson County School Superintendent Rick Molitor announced Monday.
Hiatt will continue to teach PE, but in a written statement, Molitor said "all steps have been taken to assure this will not occur again."
The superintendent said he, too, has apologized, "because everything said and done in our schools is a reflection of the culture in our district."
Following is the full text of a statement issued by Molitor to district parents, students and citizens:
Monday, October 20, 2008
To the parents, students, and citizens of Jefferson County School District 509-J:
I believe the health of a community is directly related to the issues it chooses to focus on. We have recently had to deal with some issues that have a negative impact on our schools and community. We must give attention to these issues, deal with them in the most effective and efficient manner as possible, and bring closure. This will allow us to refocus our attention on the great things we do each and every day for the students in our community. I ask you, the community, to understand and trust your school district is constantly striving to create the best environment for all students. I hope this message helps us move forward together and continue a great school year.
Late last week, PE teacher and Coach Dan Hiatt made a comment to a student during an athletic practice - a comment that he deeply regrets and has apologized for. As your superintendent, I have also apologized because everything said and done in our schools is a reflection of the culture in our district.
It is important to understand that we must follow our policies and procedures regarding staff discipline. Our procedures are based on local board policies, plus state and federal laws that protect our constitutional rights as citizens. Consequently, these laws require confidentiality when handling personnel matters such as discipline.
As a result of our investigation Mr. Hiatt has agreed to resign from all coaching assignments. While Mr. Hiatt will continue in his teaching position, all policies and procedures in this matter were followed and steps have been taken to assure this will not occur again. Mr. Hiatt returned to his teaching position as of Monday, October 20, 2008.
As your superintendent, I have chosen to view this experience as a lesson and I invite you to do the same. Our growth and forgiveness as adults sets a good example for our students - and it allows us to move forward and focus on the positive.
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Dang....you tore my heart out with that comment. I really thought you would step up to my "friend" plate on that one. :( You really are NOT much of a Mormon..... :P
You're just figuring this out?
Figuring out that you're not much of a Mormon? Yea, pretty much...I must admit you threw me for a loop on that one...I figured that you having 3 wives under the age of 16 made you a hardcore Mormon but I guess there's more to being a Mormon than that.....
All priase due Allah and peace and love be upon you....
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...and there we have the verdict - guilty, whether guilty or not.
Given my Southern background, statements like, "Boy, you should have seen that game!" are a part of the way I talk, and are appropriate to say to any friend, of any ethnicity, AND of any gender. The fact that anyone could find that racist is appalling. Yet JoMal makes it clear that something equally innocent has been thrown in his face. I don't associate hanging with blacks; I associate it with horse thieves and other criminals in the Old West. What I associate with discrimination toward blacks are things like being denied job opportunities and career advancement potential, being insulted as being inferior, etc. I think the appropriate thing is to work on remedying those types of things rather than pointing out how bad things were at a time in the past. And I'm sick to death of the double-standard that says, "It's okay for a black person to say this sort of thing to a black person, but not for a white one to say it to a black person." Double standards make for separation, and separation leads to segregation, and we're back to where we don't want to be as a society.
I think JoMal hit the nail on the head when he asked where people were taught to be offended.
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I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.
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I honestly don't see the point some of you are trying to make. Someone made a comment about the pendulum (sic?) swinging in the opposite direction regarding the way blacks used to be treated...that is such utter nonesense....I have yet to hear about white "folk" being hanged for sleeping with black women or for having an opinion or just for "funning". I've yet to see white people, KKK included, have dogs or fire hoses unleased upon them..pahleeze with the pendulum swing. What we have is the pendulum bouncing around near mid stroke. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say.
Again, different strokes for different folks and in different company. What offends you or me may or may not offend "Joe the plumber", "Tito the builder", or "Rose the school teacher". I'm sorry if being labeled a racists and all that comes with it is not a fair trade for being lynched but that's the current exchange rate. The wounds are too fresh to expect everything to be "forgiven and forgotten". Some people are going to hold grudges and be "sensative" and guess what...tough shyte....if you want to work out a cluster frak you have to wipe the slate clean and go from there, in this case wiping the slate clean means being ULTRA PC. The same applies to women, some will snap at the slightest incident.
It's like beating the crap out of a dog for years then getting upset when it flinches everytime you raise your hand, heck I've seen that happen with abused children. An yes this applies across generations when it comes to humans, please don't make me spell it out.
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I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.
And I think the fact that it is a "black" person in the example versus JUST a person is part of the problem.
We all seem to agree that if he said this to a white kid, there's no problem - other than the over-the-top style which we generally allow for coaches.
If you treat a black person THE SAME WAY you treat a white person, then I think the cry of "Racism!" is unwarranted.
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Wow -
While I get what you are saying, bear in mind when you talk about the swing of that pendulum, that, to my knowledge:
No one here ever turned a fire hose on a black person, nor released their dog to attack one.
No one here ever owned another person, whipped that person, or sold that person's family.
No one here donned a white hood, pulled a black man from his home and lynched him.
Of these actions, we of today must plead innocent of direct knowledge, though I was old enough during the sixties to have directly witnessed the civil rights movement and saw and read about them at the time when some of these offenses were being done. Yet, acording to you, these offenses are too fresh to be forgotten or forgiven, so we are required to suddenly HAVE experienced these things with first hand knowledge and avoid non-PC verbage, though few people today could tell you what they were thinking prior to saying what they thought was an innoxious comment.
Since this is pretty much impossible, and as this incident in Oregon proved, we are going to experience growing pains as long as that pendulum of yours is swinging at all because people on both sides who do not know of the past will certainly be doomed to repeat it as intolerance of any slip continues.
I suggest any prejudices being formed today are fresh prejudices based on current opinions, actions, and reactions, rather then white people, for instance, consciously voicing bigotry as a means of keeping another group of people down because it is historically acceptible. If you have not noticed, organized hatred of others has long been a fundamental foundation of this country as a means to divide and conquer the voting populance.
It works when that population is kept informed via the media every time a politically incorrect faux pas occurs and gets someone fired. That may work for some of us to avoid doing the same, but believe me, others who read that are going to react in a much, much sinister manner.
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I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.
The use of the phrase - "get a rope and hang you with it", does create the wrong image. Had he said, "get a gun and shoot you with it", or "get a knife and stab you with it", or even "get a brick and hit you with it", I would hope the kid would take offense at any of them.
My preference was that maybe he said, "get a dope and bang you with it", and the kid just absorbed an alternative enunciation.
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I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.
And I think the fact that it is a "black" person in the example versus JUST a person is part of the problem.
We all seem to agree that if he said this to a white kid, there's no problem - other than the over-the-top style which we generally allow for coaches.
If you treat a black person THE SAME WAY you treat a white person, then I think the cry of "Racism!" is unwarranted.
Regular white people were not just hanged 40-50 years ago in this fashion. So clearly it's not apart of the problem.
Yes if it's a white kid it doesn't have the same weight. Or a jewish kid. Or an asian kid. Or a Mexican kid. That's because hanging black people is something that just happened and is one of the biggest black eyes on our country's history. Like we gave many examples of if I walk up to a Native American and tell them 'Im going to throw a blanket with disease on you and your family for being late' then it would be equal. If you went up to a Cambodian and told them yo uare going to 'make like Pol Pot and throw them into a pit and shoot them' then it would be equal. Why is that so hard to understand?
If you are just as racist to a black person as you are other people then the 'racism' is warranted. Just because you (not you but figuratively speaking) would just as easily tell a Jewish guy he deserves to die in a gas chamber for being late as you would tell a black kid you want to put a rope around his neck and hang him makes you a racist. Not the opposite.
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I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.
The use of the phrase - "get a rope and hang you with it", does create the wrong image. Had he said, "get a gun and shoot you with it", or "get a knife and stab you with it", or even "get a brick and hit you with it", I would hope the kid would take offense at any of them.
My preference was that maybe he said, "get a dope and bang you with it", and the kid just absorbed an alternative enunciation.
That's my point exactly. Had it been a different way to get his point across he was mad that the kid was late it would be different. Let's be honest and admit that a lot of coaches do verbally lash their players. Telling the kid he is going to kill him for being late as a joke makes sense. The fact that 'get a rope and hang you with it' gives a certain type of mental image is what the problem is. And it has little to do with being PC as it does that image itself is horrible. Just as much as its horrible to see Jewish people being gassed in old WWII photos. Same with Cambodians being thrown into pits and shot under Pol Pot. So on and so forth.
I am not a PC person or else I wouldn't make hispanic jokes at W.O.W's expense around here. Nor would I die laughing at some of the white jokes W.O.W makes. However I do believe there are certain things that are overstepping the line.
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I honestly don't see the point some of you are trying to make. Someone made a comment about the pendulum (sic?) swinging in the opposite direction regarding the way blacks used to be treated...that is such utter nonesense....I have yet to hear about white "folk" being hanged for sleeping with black women or for having an opinion or just for "funning". I've yet to see white people, KKK included, have dogs or fire hoses unleased upon them..pahleeze with the pendulum swing. What we have is the pendulum bouncing around near mid stroke. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say.
Well, you've missed the analogy.
the pendulum represents that in the past, all kinds of inappropriate comments were spewed towards minorities, and it was acceptable. Now, anything can be misconstrued as a racist remark. It has nothing to do with actions, or whether or or not "whites" are treated as bad as minorities were, or what's "fair". That's not what I was saying at all. Simply that nowadays statements can be immediately labeled as racist statements regardless of intent. I thought the rest of my post made that clear. I guess not.
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Yes if it's a white kid it doesn't have the same weight. Or a jewish kid. Or an asian kid. Or a Mexican kid. That's because hanging black people is something that just happened and is one of the biggest black eyes on our country's history. Like we gave many examples of if I walk up to a Native American and tell them 'Im going to throw a blanket with disease on you and your family for being late' then it would be equal. If you went up to a Cambodian and told them yo uare going to 'make like Pol Pot and throw them into a pit and shoot them' then it would be equal. Why is that so hard to understand?
See, this is where my major disagreement is. Those other examples you gave can ONLY be interpreted one way.
HANGING IS STILL A LEGAL FORM OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IN SOME PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES.
There are 3 states (Montana, Delaware, New Hampshire) where hanging is the official form of execution.
Hanging CAN be used as a generic threat. Throwing someone in a gas chamber cannot.
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Wow -
While I get what you are saying, bear in mind when you talk about the swing of that pendulum, that, to my knowledge:
No one here ever turned a fire hose on a black person, nor released their dog to attack one.
No one here ever owned another person, whipped that person, or sold that person's family.
No one here donned a white hood, pulled a black man from his home and lynched him.
Speak for yourself JoMal!
Of these actions, we of today must plead innocent of direct knowledge, though I was old enough during the sixties to have directly witnessed the civil rights movement and saw and read about them at the time when some of these offenses were being done. Yet, acording to you, these offenses are too fresh to be forgotten or forgiven, so we are required to suddenly HAVE experienced these things with first hand knowledge and avoid non-PC verbage, though few people today could tell you what they were thinking prior to saying what they thought was an innoxious comment.
Since this is pretty much impossible, and as this incident in Oregon proved, we are going to experience growing pains as long as that pendulum of yours is swinging at all because people on both sides who do not know of the past will certainly be doomed to repeat it as intolerance of any slip continues.
While I must bow to your superior knowledge and EXPERIENCE regarding the civil rights movement of the 60's, Spanish Inquisition, and the Crusades I must disagree that you have to be that old to have FIRST hand experience with racism. I myself and my first two children have first hand experience with racism. My children were to young to remember but I sure as hell wasn't. I took my kids to the doctor, girl 5 and boy < 1. The doctor was reviewing our family history and asking questions about siblings and I told her that these two were the whole lot. She said "that's good. You should really look into birth control. A vasectemy or having your wifes tubes tied would be much more convienent in the long run. Since you have a boy and a girl you are all set, just like having book ends. I know you will end up with more kids and you probably don't want more and you probably can't afford to have too many kids in this day and age. I see it all the time with you guys, trust me it's better to quit now."
WTF was that about????? I asked her what she meant, since this was the first time I saw her, what does "you guys" mean. I kid you NOT, she pointed to the Hispanic checkbox I had marked on my kids info form. LOL! I told her everyone in both our families has at least 6 kids and I would look like a homo, I think I said "total fag", if I didn't have more kids to the people from my country.
I suggest any prejudices being formed today are fresh prejudices based on current opinions, actions, and reactions, rather then white people, for instance, consciously voicing bigotry as a means of keeping another group of people down because it is historically acceptible. If you have not noticed, organized hatred of others has long been a fundamental foundation of this country as a means to divide and conquer the voting populance.
You got that right boy, my baggage is from experience, not from history books! :)
It works when that population is kept informed via the media every time a politically incorrect faux pas occurs and gets someone fired. That may work for some of us to avoid doing the same, but believe me, others who read that are going to react in a much, much sinister manner.
Those people need to have beat into their heads, maybe enough of these stories will give them a clue.
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WOW -
I like it when my little hissyspanic-beaner headed friends get my meaning without me having to get all monosyllabic on them. ;)
And while the Crusades were a bit over the top, the Spanish Inquisition had a point. :P
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Yes if it's a white kid it doesn't have the same weight. Or a jewish kid. Or an asian kid. Or a Mexican kid. That's because hanging black people is something that just happened and is one of the biggest black eyes on our country's history. Like we gave many examples of if I walk up to a Native American and tell them 'Im going to throw a blanket with disease on you and your family for being late' then it would be equal. If you went up to a Cambodian and told them yo uare going to 'make like Pol Pot and throw them into a pit and shoot them' then it would be equal. Why is that so hard to understand?
See, this is where my major disagreement is. Those other examples you gave can ONLY be interpreted one way.
HANGING IS STILL A LEGAL FORM OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IN SOME PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES.
There are 3 states (Montana, Delaware, New Hampshire) where hanging is the official form of execution.
Hanging CAN be used as a generic threat. Throwing someone in a gas chamber cannot.
Come on DB. When is the last time someone was hanged for treason? Benedict Arnold?! Seriously....
So because Arizona can still gas people as capital punishment I should be able to tell a Jewish child who makes me angry that I am going to 'throw him into a room and gas him? You would back me if I did that?
Sorry, I am not PC by anymeans. I enjoy jokes and don't get upset....when they are clearly jokes and not over stepping a line. This was not one of those times in my honest opinion.
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Come on DB. When is the last time someone was hanged for treason? Benedict Arnold?! Seriously....
Treason's not the only reason someone's hanged. There have been 3 hangings by the US government since 1976. That makes it the 4th most commonly used method of execution during that time.
I'm sorry, while using a hanging reference CAN be used as a racist comment, using a hanging reference towards an african american is not in and of itself a racist comment. Threatening to hang someone does NOT imply racist intent. I'm sorry, it's way too broad of a subject to automatically know intent. There are very many people in this country who when they hear hanging, don't automatically think african americans, especially with the amount of usage it gets in westerns (which also is not very far removed from our past).
Reference a hanging has very many intents, only one of which is racist.
You're just not going to convince me otherwise.
Sorry, I am not PC by anymeans. I enjoy jokes and don't get upset....when they are clearly jokes and not over stepping a line
You're the only one calling it a joke. I think everyone acknowledges he was clearly upset and trying to demonstrate that. What we're arguing is racist intent.
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Come on DB. When is the last time someone was hanged for treason? Benedict Arnold?! Seriously....
Treason's not the only reason someone's hanged. There have been 3 hangings by the US government since 1976. That makes it the 4th most commonly used method of execution during that time.
Ok...but you completely ignored my question. Since Arizona has and can use gassing as a method to punish people should it be ok for me to tell a jewish kid that I am going to lock him in a room and gas him?
This is a perfect example of what you are saying as gassing people is still perfectly legal in this country. While plenty of people have hit the gas chamber in this country do you think if you talk about locking someone in a room and gassing them, what people do you think its most closely associated with? Certainly not murders in Arizona.
I'm sorry, while using a hanging reference CAN be used as a racist comment, using a hanging reference towards an african american is not in and of itself a racist comment. Threatening to hang someone does NOT imply racist intent. I'm sorry, it's way too broad of a subject to automatically know intent. There are very many people in this country who when they hear hanging, don't automatically think african americans, especially with the amount of usage it gets in westerns (which also is not very far removed from our past).
The coach was most likely upset and wasn't thinking. I don't see how telling a black child that you want to put a rope around his neck and hang him is not racist. I think if you were to actually poll people about 'hanging' that you would find a large amount of people who would agree with me. Surely hanging was something in the wild west and had been used for capital punishment. However, more blacks were not only hanged in the south then in our judicial system but it was more recent then the 'wild west' or the revolutionary war. Hanging people is associated with black people in this country regardless if it was exclusive to them or not (which obviously it isnt)
Besides I dont think this is a valid argument. I don't think a 30-40 year old man from OREGON is really the type to be thinking in Wild West terms.
Reference a hanging has very many intents, only one of which is racist.
Like when your mad and you say it to a black kid?
You're the only one calling it a joke. I think everyone acknowledges he was clearly upset and trying to demonstrate that. What we're arguing is racist intent.
No actually the people who were defending him were saying it was a joke, that is why I keep saying 'joke'. Clearly it wasn't a joke.
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I think at this point it would be a good idea to introduce the REAL terminology that triggers images of the South during the cross-burning, active KKK times. It was never called a 'hanging'. These were 'lynchings', named for Charles Lynch, who was a Justice of the Peace in Virginia during the 1780's and gained a reputation for "Lynch Laws".
While "lynching" = "hanging", it does not follow that every "hanging" is a "lynching". Lynching is an extrajudicial punishment meted out by a mob.
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JoMal,
And yet, when I hear the term "lynch mob," I again associate it with the Old West. Perhaps because I grew up around folks who watched westerns rather than around Klansmen. And yet, I consider myself as probably the single person on this board who has seen the most real, honest-to-goodness racism in attitude and belief in the community that I grew up in. You're not going to find too many folks who grew up in communities that considered Dr. King not a hero or a visionary, but "an uppity n*****." And yes, that's a direct quote. From this century, no less. *THAT*, to me, is the real kind of racism. And it's my profound belief - and hope - that very few people experience this kind of thing in this day and age.
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Ok...but you completely ignored my question. Since Arizona has and can use gassing as a method to punish people should it be ok for me to tell a jewish kid that I am going to lock him in a room and gas him?
This is a perfect example of what you are saying as gassing people is still perfectly legal in this country. While plenty of people have hit the gas chamber in this country do you think if you talk about locking someone in a room and gassing them, what people do you think its most closely associated with? Certainly not murders in Arizona.
No, wk. And I've answered it several times. Because while every gas chamber draws an immediate reference to Nazi Germany, not every hanging draws an immediate reference to the KKK and the struggles of African Americans during that time.
I'm sorry. Hanging is not a universal term for the struggles against racism. Just because you have a singular definition of it does not mean everyone else does. It is a very popular method of execution, that was used in this country quite a bit (both by government and unsanctioned), and has been very popularly depicted in many media forms. We'll just have to very strongly agree to disagree.
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We'll just have to very strongly agree to disagree.
. . . as long as you do it very strongly.
And yet, when I hear the term "lynch mob," I again associate it with the Old West.
If only what you associate with "lynch mob" or "hanging" is what was at issue. Unfortunately for this Coach what the black kid associated with "hanging" was what was at issue. Should someone's right of speech vernacular trump someone's right to be offended? Where's the balance?
Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.
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Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.
Which is why the coach was wrong to say yet, yet not necessarily doing it with racist intent. Which is where my argument was at.
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Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.
Which is why the coach was wrong to say yet, yet not necessarily doing it with racist intent. Which is where my argument was at.
The problem is you have to give the "offender" the benefit of the doubt in order for you to make that argument. Both sides of the argument have to "pick" and intent, there really wasn't any concrete evidence one way or another. My point is if you make that type of statement you have to deal with whatever comes, justified or not. I have no problem with the guy getting off with a simple apology, nor do I have a problem with him losing his job because both those penalties can be justified.
Sucks that it's that way for an honest mistake, or a mistake/misinterpretation on the part of the offended, but that's the way it is because that's the way this country has made it. You can't say people are over sensative and NOT recognize that there are people who are truely racists. In baseball there is the "tie goes to the runner" rule we played with as kids. That's the way I see this issue, tie goes to the offended.
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That's the way I see this issue, tie goes to the offended.
Love that racial minority favoritism. :D
Basically supports 'Bods Joes and Mals points.
Simply that nowadays statements can be immediately labeled as racist statements regardless of intent. I thought the rest of my post made that clear. I guess not.
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That's the way I see this issue, tie goes to the offended.
Love that racial minority favoritism. :D
Basically supports 'Bods Joes and Mals points.
Simply that nowadays statements can be immediately labeled as racist statements regardless of intent. I thought the rest of my post made that clear. I guess not.
Reality, why are you so stupid?
Who said anything about the offended being offended in any particular manner? Did I not use a sexist example ALREADY in one of my posts? The offended applies to anything, race, color, body type, sex, handicap, sexual orientation, religion, etc....
Again, why are you so stupid?
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If only what you associate with "lynch mob" or "hanging" is what was at issue. Unfortunately for this Coach what the black kid associated with "hanging" was what was at issue. Should someone's right of speech vernacular trump someone's right to be offended? Where's the balance?
Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.
And this is the importance of the issue, isn't it Skandery?
If that kid had only corrected the coach at the time and told him, "You are making an incorrect reference, coach. To totally offend me and my family, you should have said that you should get a rope and 'lynch' me with it. The ambiguity of your statement leaves me doubting your meaning and I will now storm off the field and quit the team."
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JoMal,
And yet, when I hear the term "lynch mob," I again associate it with the Old West. Perhaps because I grew up around folks who watched westerns rather than around Klansmen. And yet, I consider myself as probably the single person on this board who has seen the most real, honest-to-goodness racism in attitude and belief in the community that I grew up in. You're not going to find too many folks who grew up in communities that considered Dr. King not a hero or a visionary, but "an uppity n*****." And yes, that's a direct quote. From this century, no less. *THAT*, to me, is the real kind of racism. And it's my profound belief - and hope - that very few people experience this kind of thing in this day and age.
Joe -
The Hollywood version of lynch mobs were somewhat rare in the Old West - not so much elsewhere when it came to attacks against Black people. The Old West versions tended to be well-documented also - again, a bit different from the racial version, which were not all that important to the locals to record or write about.
I guess the San Jose lynchings of Thurmond and Holmes in 1933 - a time when lynchings were somewhat common elsewhere - is kind of an example of what I mean. The San Jose lynchings were done by an angry mob over the kidnapping and murder of a prominent young man named Brooke Hart. The lynchings were heard live on the radio. Though later condemned, no one involved in the lynching were ever brought to justice.
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No, wk. And I've answered it several times. Because while every gas chamber draws an immediate reference to Nazi Germany, not every hanging draws an immediate reference to the KKK and the struggles of African Americans during that time.
To whom? Just you? Because the idea of jews getting gassed is just as fresh as black people in the south being hanged. In fact there was a point in time when they were happening at the same time.
Not every gas chamber reference goes straight to Nazi Germany, based on your logic, because Arizona has and still does have the right to use the gas chamber. That is the point im trying to make here. The difference here is that you don't think hanging is associated with racism in the South first. Yet you think Gassing someone is automatically associated with Nazi Germany first. I don't see how you could say one and not the other. That is somewhat confusing to me.
I'm sorry. Hanging is not a universal term for the struggles against racism. Just because you have a singular definition of it does not mean everyone else does. It is a very popular method of execution, that was used in this country quite a bit (both by government and unsanctioned), and has been very popularly depicted in many media forms. We'll just have to very strongly agree to disagree.
Never said that it was. However the image of hanging and the act itself is very closely associated with the racism handed out to Black Americans in this country. I don't know very many people that would say they don't associate hanging of people in this country with what happened in the South. I highly doubt if you polled people they would say 'wild west' or 'American Revolution' FIRST.
It is not a very popular method of execution in this country anymore. When is the last time you heard about someone being hanged for being punished in this country? The last time I can think of anyone being hanged was Sadaam Hussein in Iraq. Aside from that I am hard pressed to name a single person who has been hanged without jumping on Google. It went the way of the firing line....
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this.
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It went the way of the firing line....
Which Utah still does! Blasted bass-ackwards Utes.
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To whom? Just you? Because the idea of jews getting gassed is just as fresh as black people in the south being hanged. In fact there was a point in time when they were happening at the same time.
Not every gas chamber reference goes straight to Nazi Germany, based on your logic, because Arizona has and still does have the right to use the gas chamber. That is the point im trying to make here. The difference here is that you don't think hanging is associated with racism in the South first. Yet you think Gassing someone is automatically associated with Nazi Germany first. I don't see how you could say one and not the other. That is somewhat confusing to me.
Exactly wk. The first thing I think about when I hear the term gas chamber is the execution of prisoners in this country. The electric chair was not a nice enough way to execute someone so they came up with the gas chamber, now lethal injection. I'm a HUGE WWII fan yet I still don't associate a gas chamber with the Jews first. So yes someone is speaking out of both sides of their mouth, no offense to people born with mouth deformities.
Never said that it was. However the image of hanging and the act itself is very closely associated with the racism handed out to Black Americans in this country. I don't know very many people that would say they don't associate hanging of people in this country with what happened in the South. I highly doubt if you polled people they would say 'wild west' or 'American Revolution' FIRST.
I disagree. I posted earlier that I associate hanging with the old west FIRST because of all the movies. I think you will find that if you did conduct your poll that a MAJORITY of people would agree with me. Is it not evident to you that laziness of the American public would cause them learn their history from movies vs books? If there were more movies about "lynchings" then maybe you would have a valid argument but you know people would be too scared to make a movie with that type of imagery (sic?). Still I know about the things done to blacks back in the day so that's why I associate hangings with blacks second. Obviously if I were black or lived in the south the order might switch just like I take things differently because of my upbrining and experience.
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To whom? Just you? Because the idea of jews getting gassed is just as fresh as black people in the south being hanged. In fact there was a point in time when they were happening at the same time.
Not every gas chamber reference goes straight to Nazi Germany, based on your logic, because Arizona has and still does have the right to use the gas chamber. That is the point im trying to make here. The difference here is that you don't think hanging is associated with racism in the South first. Yet you think Gassing someone is automatically associated with Nazi Germany first. I don't see how you could say one and not the other. That is somewhat confusing to me.
Exactly wk. The first thing I think about when I hear the term gas chamber is the execution of prisoners in this country. The electric chair was not a nice enough way to execute someone so they came up with the gas chamber, now lethal injection. I'm a HUGE WWII fan yet I still don't associate a gas chamber with the Jews first. So yes someone is speaking out of both sides of their mouth, no offense to people born with mouth deformities.
Never said that it was. However the image of hanging and the act itself is very closely associated with the racism handed out to Black Americans in this country. I don't know very many people that would say they don't associate hanging of people in this country with what happened in the South. I highly doubt if you polled people they would say 'wild west' or 'American Revolution' FIRST.
I disagree. I posted earlier that I associate hanging with the old west FIRST because of all the movies. I think you will find that if you did conduct your poll that a MAJORITY of people would agree with me. Is it not evident to you that laziness of the American public would cause them learn their history from movies vs books? If there were more movies about "lynchings" then maybe you would have a valid argument but you know people would be too scared to make a movie with that type of imagery (sic?). Still I know about the things done to blacks back in the day so that's why I associate hangings with blacks second. Obviously if I were black or lived in the south the order might switch just like I take things differently because of my upbrining and experience.
That makes sense. People who are 40+ that actually watched a lot of westerns, watched bonaza, remembers when an old ghost town was a real town, etc would agree with you. I guess I should have been more specific. People who are younger, who did not grow up watching westerns, probably would not pin those two together. It was a mistake for me to lump the general population together like I did.
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That makes sense. People who are 40+ that actually watched a lot of westerns, watched bonaza, remembers when an old ghost town was a real town, etc would agree with you. I guess I should have been more specific. People who are younger, who did not grow up watching westerns, probably would not pin those two together. It was a mistake for me to lump the general population together like I did.
I meant the exact opposite. Older people who had to learn things the "old" way, with books and stuff would have a better view of "history" vs young kids who cannot step away from their "virtual" world long enough to learn some of the not-so-popular aspects of American history. Young people learn most of their "history" from TV and the movies. Tell me how many Roots/To Kill A Mocking Bird vs Wild Wild West/Pirates of the Carribean movies they have to choose from.
Even in my time, HS Grad of 88, all we learned about black history was MLK and Rosa Parks and what they accomplished, not HOW they accomplished or what they had to go through in order to accomplish it. We were not taught about the brutality of the civil rights movent let alone learn ANYTHING about the "East LA 13" or Cesar Chavez or Dolores Huerta. Now it's 10X worse, except for my odest, my kids have no idea about the Nazi's, Civil Rights Movement, Native American Genocide, or anything unpleasant (especially when it comes to US history).
HENCE MY SIG!