I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story

[westkoast]

Come on DB.  When is the last time someone was hanged for treason?  Benedict Arnold?!  Seriously....

Treason's not the only reason someone's hanged.  There have been 3 hangings by the US government since 1976.  That makes it the 4th most commonly used method of execution during that time.

Ok...but you completely ignored my question.  Since Arizona has and can use gassing as a method to punish people should it be ok for me to tell a jewish kid that I am going to lock him in a room and gas him?

This is a perfect example of what you are saying as gassing people is still perfectly legal in this country.  While plenty of people have hit the gas chamber in this country do you think if you talk about locking someone in a room and gassing them, what people do you think its most closely associated with?  Certainly not murders in Arizona.   

I'm sorry, while using a hanging reference CAN be used as a racist comment, using a hanging reference towards an african american is not in and of itself a racist comment.  Threatening to hang someone does NOT imply racist intent.  I'm sorry, it's way too broad of a subject to automatically know intent.  There are very many people in this country who when they hear hanging, don't automatically think african americans, especially with the amount of usage it gets in westerns (which also is not very far removed from our past).  

The coach was most likely upset and wasn't thinking.  I don't see how telling a black child that you want to put a rope around his neck and hang him is not racist.  I think if you were to actually poll people about 'hanging' that you would find a large amount of people who would agree with me.  Surely hanging was something in the wild west and had been used for capital punishment.  However, more blacks were not only hanged in the south then in our judicial system but it was more recent then the 'wild west' or the revolutionary war.  Hanging people is associated with black people in this country regardless if it was exclusive to them or not (which obviously it isnt)

Besides I dont think this is a valid argument.  I don't think a 30-40 year old man from OREGON is really the type to be thinking in Wild West terms.

Reference a hanging has very many intents, only one of which is racist.

Like when your mad and you say it to a black kid?

You're the only one calling it a joke.  I think everyone acknowledges he was clearly upset and trying to demonstrate that.  What we're arguing is racist intent.

No actually the people who were defending him were saying it was a joke, that is why I keep saying 'joke'.  Clearly it wasn't a joke.

[JoMal]

I think at this point it would be a good idea to introduce the REAL terminology that triggers images of the South during the cross-burning, active KKK times. It was never called a 'hanging'. These were 'lynchings', named for Charles Lynch, who was a Justice of the Peace in Virginia during the 1780's and gained a reputation for "Lynch Laws".

While "lynching" = "hanging", it does not follow that every "hanging" is a "lynching". Lynching is an extrajudicial punishment meted out by a mob.
 

[Joe Vancil]

JoMal,

And yet, when I hear the term "lynch mob," I again associate it with the Old West.  Perhaps because I grew up around folks who watched westerns rather than around Klansmen.  And yet, I consider myself as probably the single person on this board who has seen the most real, honest-to-goodness racism in attitude and belief in the community that I grew up in.  You're not going to find too many folks who grew up in communities that considered Dr. King not a hero or a visionary, but "an uppity n*****."  And yes, that's a direct quote.  From this century, no less.  *THAT*, to me, is the real kind of racism.  And it's my profound belief - and hope - that very few people experience this kind of thing in this day and age.

[Derek Bodner]

Ok...but you completely ignored my question.  Since Arizona has and can use gassing as a method to punish people should it be ok for me to tell a jewish kid that I am going to lock him in a room and gas him?

This is a perfect example of what you are saying as gassing people is still perfectly legal in this country.  While plenty of people have hit the gas chamber in this country do you think if you talk about locking someone in a room and gassing them, what people do you think its most closely associated with?  Certainly not murders in Arizona.   

No, wk.  And I've answered it several times.  Because while every gas chamber draws an immediate reference to Nazi Germany, not every hanging draws an immediate reference to the KKK and the struggles of African Americans during that time.

I'm sorry.  Hanging is not a universal term for the struggles against racism.  Just because you have a singular definition of it does not mean everyone else does.  It is a very popular method of execution, that was used in this country quite a bit (both by government and unsanctioned), and has been very popularly depicted in many media forms.  We'll just have to very strongly agree to disagree.

[Skandery]

We'll just have to very strongly agree to disagree.

. . . as long as you do it very strongly.

And yet, when I hear the term "lynch mob," I again associate it with the Old West.

If only what you associate with "lynch mob" or "hanging" is what was at issue.  Unfortunately for this Coach what the black kid associated with "hanging" was what was at issue.  Should someone's right of speech vernacular trump someone's right to be offended?  Where's the balance? 

Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.

[Derek Bodner]

Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.

Which is why the coach was wrong to say yet, yet not necessarily doing it with racist intent.  Which is where my argument was at.

[WayOutWest]

Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.

Which is why the coach was wrong to say yet, yet not necessarily doing it with racist intent.  Which is where my argument was at.

The problem is you have to give the "offender" the benefit of the doubt in order for you to make that argument.  Both sides of the argument have to "pick" and intent, there really wasn't any concrete evidence one way or another.  My point is if you make that type of statement you have to deal with whatever comes, justified or not.  I have no problem with the guy getting off with a simple apology, nor do I have a problem with him losing his job because both those penalties can be justified. 

Sucks that it's that way for an honest mistake, or a mistake/misinterpretation on the part of the offended, but that's the way it is because that's the way this country has made it.   You can't say people are over sensative and NOT recognize that there are people who are truely racists.  In baseball there is the "tie goes to the runner" rule we played with as kids.  That's the way I see this issue, tie goes to the offended.

[Reality]

 
 That's the way I see this issue, tie goes to the offended. 

Love that racial minority favoritism.

Basically supports 'Bods Joes and Mals points.

Simply that nowadays statements can be immediately labeled as racist statements regardless of intent.  I thought the rest of my post made that clear.  I guess not.
 

[WayOutWest]

 
 That's the way I see this issue, tie goes to the offended. 

Love that racial minority favoritism.

Basically supports 'Bods Joes and Mals points.

Simply that nowadays statements can be immediately labeled as racist statements regardless of intent.  I thought the rest of my post made that clear.  I guess not.
 

Reality, why are you so stupid?

Who said anything about the offended being offended in any particular manner?  Did I not use a sexist example ALREADY in one of my posts?  The offended applies to anything, race, color, body type, sex, handicap, sexual orientation, religion, etc....

Again, why are you so stupid?

[JoMal]

If only what you associate with "lynch mob" or "hanging" is what was at issue.  Unfortunately for this Coach what the black kid associated with "hanging" was what was at issue.  Should someone's right of speech vernacular trump someone's right to be offended?  Where's the balance? 

Unfortunately the severity of any offense is largely circumscribed by the viewpoint of the offendee, not the offender.

And this is the importance of the issue, isn't it Skandery?

If that kid had only corrected the coach at the time and told him, "You are making an incorrect reference, coach. To totally offend me and my family, you should have said that you should get a rope and 'lynch' me with it. The ambiguity of your statement leaves me doubting your meaning and I will now storm off the field and quit the team."

[JoMal]

JoMal,

And yet, when I hear the term "lynch mob," I again associate it with the Old West.  Perhaps because I grew up around folks who watched westerns rather than around Klansmen.  And yet, I consider myself as probably the single person on this board who has seen the most real, honest-to-goodness racism in attitude and belief in the community that I grew up in.  You're not going to find too many folks who grew up in communities that considered Dr. King not a hero or a visionary, but "an uppity n*****."  And yes, that's a direct quote.  From this century, no less.  *THAT*, to me, is the real kind of racism.  And it's my profound belief - and hope - that very few people experience this kind of thing in this day and age.

Joe -

The Hollywood version of lynch mobs were somewhat rare in the Old West - not so much elsewhere when it came to attacks against Black people. The Old West versions tended to be well-documented also  - again, a bit different from the racial version, which were not all that important to the locals to record or write about.

I guess the San Jose lynchings of Thurmond and Holmes in 1933 - a time when lynchings were somewhat common elsewhere - is kind of an example of what I mean. The San Jose lynchings were done by an angry mob over the kidnapping and murder of a prominent young man named Brooke Hart. The lynchings were heard live on the radio. Though later condemned, no one involved in the lynching were ever brought to justice.

[westkoast]

No, wk.  And I've answered it several times.  Because while every gas chamber draws an immediate reference to Nazi Germany, not every hanging draws an immediate reference to the KKK and the struggles of African Americans during that time. 

To whom?  Just you?  Because the idea of jews getting gassed is just as fresh as black people in the south being hanged.  In fact there was a point in time when they were happening at the same time.

Not every gas chamber reference goes straight to Nazi Germany, based on your logic, because Arizona has and still does have the right to use the gas chamber.  That is the point im trying to make here.  The difference here is  that you don't think hanging is associated with racism in the South first.  Yet you think Gassing someone is automatically associated with Nazi Germany first.  I don't see how you could say one and not the other.  That is somewhat confusing to me.

I'm sorry.  Hanging is not a universal term for the struggles against racism.  Just because you have a singular definition of it does not mean everyone else does.  It is a very popular method of execution, that was used in this country quite a bit (both by government and unsanctioned), and has been very popularly depicted in many media forms.  We'll just have to very strongly agree to disagree.

Never said that it was.  However the image of hanging and the act itself is very closely associated with the racism handed out to Black Americans in this country.  I don't know very many people that would say they don't associate hanging of people in this country with what happened in the South.  I highly doubt if you polled people they would say 'wild west' or 'American Revolution' FIRST.

It is not a very popular method of execution in this country anymore.  When is the last time you heard about someone being hanged for being punished in this country?  The last time I can think of anyone being hanged was Sadaam Hussein in Iraq.  Aside from that I am hard pressed to name a single person who has been hanged  without jumping on Google.  It went the way of the firing line....

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this.

[Skandery]

It went the way of the firing line....

Which Utah still does!  Blasted bass-ackwards Utes.

[WayOutWest]

To whom?  Just you?  Because the idea of jews getting gassed is just as fresh as black people in the south being hanged.  In fact there was a point in time when they were happening at the same time.

Not every gas chamber reference goes straight to Nazi Germany, based on your logic, because Arizona has and still does have the right to use the gas chamber.  That is the point im trying to make here.  The difference here is  that you don't think hanging is associated with racism in the South first.  Yet you think Gassing someone is automatically associated with Nazi Germany first.  I don't see how you could say one and not the other.  That is somewhat confusing to me.

Exactly wk.  The first thing I think about when I hear the term gas chamber is the execution of prisoners in this country.  The electric chair was not a nice enough way to execute someone so they came up with the gas chamber, now lethal injection.  I'm a HUGE WWII fan yet I still don't associate a gas chamber with the Jews first.  So yes someone is speaking out of both sides of their mouth, no offense to people born with mouth deformities.

Never said that it was.  However the image of hanging and the act itself is very closely associated with the racism handed out to Black Americans in this country.  I don't know very many people that would say they don't associate hanging of people in this country with what happened in the South.  I highly doubt if you polled people they would say 'wild west' or 'American Revolution' FIRST.

I disagree.  I posted earlier that I associate hanging with the old west FIRST because of all the movies.  I think you will find that if you did conduct your poll that a MAJORITY of people would agree with me.  Is it not evident to you that laziness of the American public would cause them learn their history from movies vs books?  If there were more movies about "lynchings" then maybe you would have a valid argument but you know people would be too scared to make a movie with that type of imagery (sic?).  Still I know about the things done to blacks back in the day so that's why I associate hangings with blacks second.  Obviously if I were black or lived in the south the order might switch just like I take things differently because of my upbrining and experience.

[westkoast]

To whom?  Just you?  Because the idea of jews getting gassed is just as fresh as black people in the south being hanged.  In fact there was a point in time when they were happening at the same time.

Not every gas chamber reference goes straight to Nazi Germany, based on your logic, because Arizona has and still does have the right to use the gas chamber.  That is the point im trying to make here.  The difference here is  that you don't think hanging is associated with racism in the South first.  Yet you think Gassing someone is automatically associated with Nazi Germany first.  I don't see how you could say one and not the other.  That is somewhat confusing to me.

Exactly wk.  The first thing I think about when I hear the term gas chamber is the execution of prisoners in this country.  The electric chair was not a nice enough way to execute someone so they came up with the gas chamber, now lethal injection.  I'm a HUGE WWII fan yet I still don't associate a gas chamber with the Jews first.  So yes someone is speaking out of both sides of their mouth, no offense to people born with mouth deformities.

Never said that it was.  However the image of hanging and the act itself is very closely associated with the racism handed out to Black Americans in this country.  I don't know very many people that would say they don't associate hanging of people in this country with what happened in the South.  I highly doubt if you polled people they would say 'wild west' or 'American Revolution' FIRST.

I disagree.  I posted earlier that I associate hanging with the old west FIRST because of all the movies.  I think you will find that if you did conduct your poll that a MAJORITY of people would agree with me.  Is it not evident to you that laziness of the American public would cause them learn their history from movies vs books?  If there were more movies about "lynchings" then maybe you would have a valid argument but you know people would be too scared to make a movie with that type of imagery (sic?).  Still I know about the things done to blacks back in the day so that's why I associate hangings with blacks second.  Obviously if I were black or lived in the south the order might switch just like I take things differently because of my upbrining and experience.

That makes sense. People who are 40+ that actually watched a lot of westerns, watched bonaza, remembers when an old ghost town was a real town, etc would agree with you.  I guess I should have been more specific.  People who are younger, who did not grow up watching westerns, probably would not pin those two together.  It was a mistake for me to lump the general population together like I did.