Author Topic: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story  (Read 13493 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2008, 02:41:04 PM »
Dang....you tore my heart out with that comment.  I really thought you would step up to my "friend" plate on that one. :(  You really are NOT much of a Mormon.....   :P

You're just figuring this out?

Figuring out that you're not much of a Mormon?  Yea, pretty much...I must admit you threw me for a loop on that one...I figured that you having 3 wives under the age of 16 made you a hardcore Mormon but I guess there's more to being a Mormon than that.....

All priase due Allah and peace and love be upon you....
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2008, 02:43:29 PM »
...and there we have the verdict - guilty, whether guilty or not.

Given my Southern background, statements like, "Boy, you should have seen that game!" are a part of the way I talk, and are appropriate to say to any friend, of any ethnicity, AND of any gender.  The fact that anyone could find that racist is appalling.  Yet JoMal makes it clear that something equally innocent has been thrown in his face.  I don't associate hanging with blacks;  I associate it with horse thieves and other criminals in the Old West.  What I associate with discrimination toward blacks are things like being denied job opportunities and career advancement potential, being insulted as being inferior, etc.  I think the appropriate thing is to work on remedying those types of things rather than pointing out how bad things were at a time in the past.  And I'm sick to death of the double-standard that says, "It's okay for a black person to say this sort of thing to a black person, but not for a white one to say it to a black person."  Double standards make for separation, and separation leads to segregation, and we're back to where we don't want to be as a society.

I think JoMal hit the nail on the head when he asked where people were taught to be offended.



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Offline westkoast

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2008, 02:48:16 PM »
I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2008, 02:59:51 PM »
I honestly don't see the point some of you are trying to make.  Someone made a comment about the pendulum (sic?) swinging in the opposite direction regarding the way blacks used to be treated...that is such utter nonesense....I have yet to hear about white "folk" being hanged for sleeping with black women or for having an opinion or just for "funning".  I've yet to see white people, KKK included, have dogs or fire hoses unleased upon them..pahleeze with the pendulum swing.  What we have is the pendulum bouncing around near mid stroke.  If you can't see that then I don't know what to say.

Again, different strokes for different folks and in different company.  What offends you or me may or may not offend "Joe the plumber", "Tito the builder", or "Rose the school teacher".  I'm sorry if being labeled a racists and all that comes with it is not a fair trade for being lynched but that's the current exchange rate.  The wounds are too fresh to expect everything to be "forgiven and forgotten".  Some people are going to hold grudges and be "sensative" and guess what...tough shyte....if you want to work out a cluster frak you have to wipe the slate clean and go from there, in this case wiping the slate clean means being ULTRA PC.  The same applies to women, some will snap at the slightest incident.

It's like beating the crap out of a dog for years then getting upset when it flinches everytime you raise your hand, heck I've seen that happen with abused children.  An yes this applies across generations when it comes to humans, please don't make me spell it out.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2008, 03:30:08 PM »
I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.

And I think the fact that it is a "black" person in the example versus JUST a person is part of the problem.

We all seem to agree that if he said this to a white kid, there's no problem - other than the over-the-top style which we generally allow for coaches.

If you treat a black person THE SAME WAY you treat a white person, then I think the cry of "Racism!" is unwarranted.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2008, 03:40:33 PM »
Wow -

While I get what you are saying, bear in mind when you talk about the swing of that pendulum, that, to my knowledge:

No one here ever turned a fire hose on a black person, nor released their dog to attack one.

No one here ever owned another person, whipped that person, or sold that person's family.

No one here donned a white hood, pulled a black man from his home and lynched him.

Of these actions, we of today must plead innocent of direct knowledge, though I was old enough during the sixties to have directly witnessed the civil rights movement and saw and read about them at the time when some of these offenses were being done. Yet, acording to you, these offenses are too fresh to be forgotten or forgiven, so we are required to suddenly HAVE experienced these things with first hand knowledge and avoid non-PC verbage, though few people today could tell you what they were thinking prior to saying what they thought was an innoxious comment.

Since this is pretty much impossible, and as this incident in Oregon proved, we are going to experience growing pains as long as that pendulum of yours is swinging at all because people on both sides who do not know of the past will certainly be doomed to repeat it as intolerance of any slip continues.

I suggest any prejudices being formed today are fresh prejudices based on current opinions, actions, and reactions, rather then white people, for instance, consciously voicing bigotry as a means of keeping another group of people down because it is historically acceptible. If you have not noticed, organized hatred of others has long been a fundamental foundation of this country as a means to divide and conquer the voting populance.

It works when that population is kept informed via the media every time a politically incorrect faux pas occurs and gets someone fired. That may work for some of us to avoid doing the same, but believe me, others who read that are going to react in a much, much sinister manner.  
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline JoMal

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2008, 03:45:54 PM »
I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.

The use of the phrase - "get a rope and hang you with it", does create the wrong image. Had he said, "get a gun and shoot you with it", or "get a knife and stab you with it", or even "get a brick and hit you with it", I would hope the kid would take offense at any of them.

My preference was that maybe he said, "get a dope and bang you with it", and the kid just absorbed an alternative enunciation.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline westkoast

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2008, 03:47:29 PM »
I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.

And I think the fact that it is a "black" person in the example versus JUST a person is part of the problem.

We all seem to agree that if he said this to a white kid, there's no problem - other than the over-the-top style which we generally allow for coaches.

If you treat a black person THE SAME WAY you treat a white person, then I think the cry of "Racism!" is unwarranted.


Regular white people were not just hanged 40-50 years ago in this fashion.  So clearly it's not apart of the problem.  

Yes if it's a white kid it doesn't have the same weight.  Or a jewish kid.  Or an asian kid. Or a Mexican kid.  That's because hanging black people is something that just happened and is one of the biggest black eyes on our country's history.  Like we gave many examples of if I walk up to a Native American and tell them 'Im going to throw a blanket with disease on you and your family for being late' then it would be equal.  If you went up to a Cambodian and told them yo uare going to 'make like Pol Pot and throw them into a pit and shoot them' then it would be equal.  Why is that so hard to understand?

If you are just as racist to a black person as you are other people then the 'racism' is warranted.  Just because you (not you but figuratively speaking) would just as easily tell a Jewish guy he deserves to die in a gas chamber for being late as you would tell a black kid you want to put a rope around his neck and hang him makes you a racist.  Not the opposite.

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Offline westkoast

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2008, 03:51:21 PM »
I don't think someone needs to be 'taught' that saying you are going to hang a black person with a rope is not okay.

The use of the phrase - "get a rope and hang you with it", does create the wrong image. Had he said, "get a gun and shoot you with it", or "get a knife and stab you with it", or even "get a brick and hit you with it", I would hope the kid would take offense at any of them.

My preference was that maybe he said, "get a dope and bang you with it", and the kid just absorbed an alternative enunciation.

That's my point exactly.  Had it been a different way to get his point across he was mad that the kid was late it would be different.  Let's be honest and admit that a lot of  coaches do verbally lash their players.  Telling the kid he is going to kill him for being late as a joke makes sense.   The fact that 'get a rope and hang you with it' gives a certain type of mental image is what the problem is.  And it has little to do with being PC as it does that image itself is horrible.  Just as much as its horrible to see Jewish people being gassed in old WWII photos.  Same with Cambodians being thrown into pits and shot under Pol Pot.  So on and so forth.

I am not a PC person or else I wouldn't make hispanic jokes at W.O.W's expense around here.  Nor would I die laughing at some of the white jokes W.O.W makes.    However I do believe there are certain things that are overstepping the line. 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 03:53:10 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2008, 03:52:41 PM »
Quote
I honestly don't see the point some of you are trying to make.  Someone made a comment about the pendulum (sic?) swinging in the opposite direction regarding the way blacks used to be treated...that is such utter nonesense....I have yet to hear about white "folk" being hanged for sleeping with black women or for having an opinion or just for "funning".  I've yet to see white people, KKK included, have dogs or fire hoses unleased upon them..pahleeze with the pendulum swing.  What we have is the pendulum bouncing around near mid stroke.  If you can't see that then I don't know what to say.

Well, you've missed the analogy.

the pendulum represents that in the past, all kinds of inappropriate comments were spewed towards minorities, and it was acceptable.  Now, anything can be misconstrued as a racist remark.  It has nothing to do with actions, or whether or or not "whites" are treated as bad as minorities were, or what's "fair".  That's not what I was saying at all.  Simply that nowadays statements can be immediately labeled as racist statements regardless of intent.  I thought the rest of my post made that clear.  I guess not.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 03:54:58 PM by Derek Bodner »

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2008, 04:01:25 PM »
Quote
Yes if it's a white kid it doesn't have the same weight.  Or a jewish kid.  Or an asian kid. Or a Mexican kid.  That's because hanging black people is something that just happened and is one of the biggest black eyes on our country's history.  Like we gave many examples of if I walk up to a Native American and tell them 'Im going to throw a blanket with disease on you and your family for being late' then it would be equal.  If you went up to a Cambodian and told them yo uare going to 'make like Pol Pot and throw them into a pit and shoot them' then it would be equal.  Why is that so hard to understand?

See, this is where my major disagreement is.  Those other examples you gave can ONLY be interpreted one way.

HANGING IS STILL A LEGAL FORM OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IN SOME PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

There are 3 states (Montana, Delaware, New Hampshire) where hanging is the official form of execution.

Hanging CAN be used as a generic threat.  Throwing someone in a gas chamber cannot.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 04:02:58 PM by Derek Bodner »

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2008, 04:10:44 PM »
Wow -

While I get what you are saying, bear in mind when you talk about the swing of that pendulum, that, to my knowledge:

No one here ever turned a fire hose on a black person, nor released their dog to attack one.

No one here ever owned another person, whipped that person, or sold that person's family.

No one here donned a white hood, pulled a black man from his home and lynched him.

Speak for yourself JoMal!

Of these actions, we of today must plead innocent of direct knowledge, though I was old enough during the sixties to have directly witnessed the civil rights movement and saw and read about them at the time when some of these offenses were being done. Yet, acording to you, these offenses are too fresh to be forgotten or forgiven, so we are required to suddenly HAVE experienced these things with first hand knowledge and avoid non-PC verbage, though few people today could tell you what they were thinking prior to saying what they thought was an innoxious comment.

Since this is pretty much impossible, and as this incident in Oregon proved, we are going to experience growing pains as long as that pendulum of yours is swinging at all because people on both sides who do not know of the past will certainly be doomed to repeat it as intolerance of any slip continues.

While I must bow to your superior knowledge and EXPERIENCE regarding the civil rights movement of the 60's, Spanish Inquisition, and the Crusades I must disagree that you have to be that old to have FIRST hand experience with racism.  I myself and my first two children have first hand experience with racism.  My children were to young to remember but I sure as hell wasn't.  I took my kids to the doctor, girl 5 and boy < 1.  The doctor was reviewing our family history and asking questions about siblings and I told her that these two were the whole lot.  She said "that's good.  You should really look into birth control.  A vasectemy or having your wifes tubes tied would be much more convienent in the long run.  Since you have a boy and a girl you are all set, just like having book ends.  I know you will end up with more kids and you probably don't want more and you probably can't afford to have too many kids in this day and age.  I see it all the time with you guys, trust me it's better to quit now." 

WTF was that about?????  I asked her what she meant, since this was the first time I saw her, what does "you guys" mean.  I kid you NOT, she pointed to the Hispanic checkbox I had marked on my kids info form.  LOL!  I told her everyone in both our families has at least 6 kids and I would look like a homo, I think I said "total fag", if I didn't have more kids to the people from my country.

I suggest any prejudices being formed today are fresh prejudices based on current opinions, actions, and reactions, rather then white people, for instance, consciously voicing bigotry as a means of keeping another group of people down because it is historically acceptible. If you have not noticed, organized hatred of others has long been a fundamental foundation of this country as a means to divide and conquer the voting populance.

You got that right boy, my baggage is from experience, not from history books! :)

It works when that population is kept informed via the media every time a politically incorrect faux pas occurs and gets someone fired. That may work for some of us to avoid doing the same, but believe me, others who read that are going to react in a much, much sinister manner.  

Those people need to have beat into their heads, maybe enough of these stories will give them a clue.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline JoMal

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2008, 05:17:43 PM »
WOW -

I like it when my little hissyspanic-beaner headed friends get my meaning without me having to get all monosyllabic on them.  ;)

And while the Crusades were a bit over the top, the Spanish Inquisition had a point. :P
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline westkoast

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2008, 05:21:41 PM »
Quote
Yes if it's a white kid it doesn't have the same weight.  Or a jewish kid.  Or an asian kid. Or a Mexican kid.  That's because hanging black people is something that just happened and is one of the biggest black eyes on our country's history.  Like we gave many examples of if I walk up to a Native American and tell them 'Im going to throw a blanket with disease on you and your family for being late' then it would be equal.  If you went up to a Cambodian and told them yo uare going to 'make like Pol Pot and throw them into a pit and shoot them' then it would be equal.  Why is that so hard to understand?

See, this is where my major disagreement is.  Those other examples you gave can ONLY be interpreted one way.

HANGING IS STILL A LEGAL FORM OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IN SOME PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

There are 3 states (Montana, Delaware, New Hampshire) where hanging is the official form of execution.

Hanging CAN be used as a generic threat.  Throwing someone in a gas chamber cannot.

Come on DB.  When is the last time someone was hanged for treason?  Benedict Arnold?!  Seriously....

So because Arizona can still gas people as capital punishment I should be able to tell a Jewish child who makes me angry that I am going to 'throw him into a room and gas him?  You would back me if I did that?

Sorry, I am not PC by anymeans.  I enjoy jokes and don't get upset....when they are clearly jokes and not over stepping a line.  This was not one of those times in my honest opinion.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 05:24:13 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: I would like your honest opinions and feedback on the enclosed news story
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2008, 05:29:42 PM »
Quote
Come on DB.  When is the last time someone was hanged for treason?  Benedict Arnold?!  Seriously....

Treason's not the only reason someone's hanged.  There have been 3 hangings by the US government since 1976.  That makes it the 4th most commonly used method of execution during that time.

I'm sorry, while using a hanging reference CAN be used as a racist comment, using a hanging reference towards an african american is not in and of itself a racist comment.  Threatening to hang someone does NOT imply racist intent.  I'm sorry, it's way too broad of a subject to automatically know intent.  There are very many people in this country who when they hear hanging, don't automatically think african americans, especially with the amount of usage it gets in westerns (which also is not very far removed from our past). 

Reference a hanging has very many intents, only one of which is racist.

You're just not going to convince me otherwise.

Quote
Sorry, I am not PC by anymeans.  I enjoy jokes and don't get upset....when they are clearly jokes and not over stepping a line

You're the only one calling it a joke.  I think everyone acknowledges he was clearly upset and trying to demonstrate that.  What we're arguing is racist intent.