Author Topic: OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?  (Read 10838 times)

Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2004, 11:14:31 AM »
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Anybody seen the documentary "Bowling for Colembine"?  It's a documentary revolving around guns and murders in America.  The shootings at Colemine (sic?) High School is at the core of the film.

After watching that film can you honestly say OUR ideals and beliefs are WORTHY of shoving down someone's throat?

The beheading of Berg was such a big deal to alot of people, yet about 3 or so years ago some AMERICAN slits the throat of a 10 year old boy in an Oceanside beach bathroom not more than 10 feet from his mother and somehow the MONSTERS are all in Iraq.

I really DON'T think we should be in Iraq but we have to do something to get out and not give our enemies the impression we are weak and lacking resolve.  I think we need to remind the world that we are TRUELY the MONSTERS of the world and Nagasaki some mo-fo's.  Women and children ARE NOT a line we will NOT cross.

In short, better yours than mine, sucks but that's the honest truth.
Wow, I am not debatting that we are saints or not, show me a people that HASNT committed attrocities, i agree.  I still would say though that Lurkers idea of "just getting out" is insane.  and just begs for MORE horror to come our way.  you are right  though, we cant just getb out and let them think we are weak, that just gives them even more reason to keep this up...
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline Lurker

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2004, 11:20:52 AM »
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that just gives them even more reason to keep this up...
Keep what up?  Exactly what did the Iraqis do to Americans?

We went in to destroy WMDs.  We found none.

We changed our minds...we went in to take out Saddam and we did.  So why are we still there?

To try to stabilize an island in the middle of a sea of instability?  Sounds like a prime reason to continue to risk our military.  Just wait for the Vietnam-like backlash where young people don't see good reasons to voluntarily join the military.
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Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2004, 11:24:53 AM »
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why see doctors if we are all just going to die anyway....like i said, i just dont get that way of thinking...
You see doctors because you CHOOSE to see a doctor.   Then you CHOOSE whether to follow the doctor's recommendations.   Or you CHOOSE to seek other advice.  The Iraqis did NOT CHOOSE for the Americans to invade their country and then hang around to tell them how to live.  

If you can't see the difference then I'm not sure how to better word the argument.
so Iraqis would have a choice AFTER we left???  its your futility that makes no sense to me Lurk.  you dont just stop what has been started, right or wonrg, its done and we have to make a smart move to get out not just leave them to fend for themselves.  It is not an issue of morality, it is just the way the world is, what you are suggesting is for us to make oursleves look meager by backing out and saying "oh well, we came, we dropped a few bombs, shot a few people, caught a few tyrants, its been a slice now see ya..."  your not even thingking about the impression it would have on the people  that ARE trying to beat us, how would that make them feel to know that they are in some sense winning?  the resolution can be figured out AFTER a sensable plan has been carried out to leave and to makem sure the interim govt can support its own security.  you dont just leave the people that do wants us to help them alone and on their arses to die.  and yes lurk, believe it or not, there actually ARE some over there that DO want us to stay and help.  show me a pole that says the majority of iraq wants us to leave, i mean besides the images you get from msnbc, cnn and the likes.  As long as the interim govt wants us to stay we should be there, and when they can support their own security, THEN they will ask us to leave, fine - they may not like us as best friends, but atleast we didnt just up and leave the new iraqi govt to die when they needed us.
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2004, 11:29:31 AM »
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that just gives them even more reason to keep this up...
Keep what up?  Exactly what did the Iraqis do to Americans?

We went in to destroy WMDs.  We found none.

We changed our minds...we went in to take out Saddam and we did.  So why are we still there?

To try to stabilize an island in the middle of a sea of instability?  Sounds like a prime reason to continue to risk our military.  Just wait for the Vietnam-like backlash where young people don't see good reasons to voluntarily join the military.
Keep what up?  you really think AL qaeda hasnt moved in?  do you think this insane cleric is not looking to gain more power by his own forces guerilla fighting us in the streets?  they may not all be the same people, but the message that is spread on arabic networks that sympathize with the bin laden type people is that we would be bakcing down from them if we just retreated.  There is a power sturggle going on over there, there is the look for weakness by us on their part, yeah if we pull out now, the next person in charge would be some crazy arse cleric, money from their oil reserves would only feed their military again to rebuild the way it and the SAME  damn army would be back in place, just a different person in charge.  we would be blamed for allowing that to happen.
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline Lurker

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2004, 11:39:06 AM »
But X3, what makes our decisions the right ones?  History has shown that the US isn't very good at picking leaders for foreign countries (Bush shows that Americans aren't very good at picking leaders for our country  :eek2: ).  We have propped up terrible dictators because they agree with US policy....or at least don't openly defy it.  What is the US gaining by remaining in Iraq?

What makes the people that the US has chosen to lead Iraq better than any of the others who want to be involved?  Because the US leaders like the butt kissing that they have received?

The leaders we have picked are being killed.  All we have done is set up a situation where the unrest in the Mideast has a second target to focus on (Israel being #1).  So we are to maintain a military presence in Iraq for how many years?  How long before 18-22 year old Americans say enough of this BS and refuse to join the military?

Bush has shown that he has no sensible plan to get us out of Iraq.  And the longer we stay the more complicated it will become.   How long before our few allies in this war say enough and leave?  How much damage do we do to our relations with the rest of the world before admitting that Bush sucked us into a position between a rock and a hard place?  There is no way for us to remove ourselves from Iraq and accomplish "victory".   But we can try to remove our military and say "we accomplished what we came for.  If we find out that you are coming at us we will return and strike hard."
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Offline Lurker

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2004, 11:45:23 AM »
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that just gives them even more reason to keep this up...
Keep what up?  Exactly what did the Iraqis do to Americans?

We went in to destroy WMDs.  We found none.

We changed our minds...we went in to take out Saddam and we did.  So why are we still there?

To try to stabilize an island in the middle of a sea of instability?  Sounds like a prime reason to continue to risk our military.  Just wait for the Vietnam-like backlash where young people don't see good reasons to voluntarily join the military.
Keep what up?  you really think AL qaeda hasnt moved in?  do you think this insane cleric is not looking to gain more power by his own forces guerilla fighting us in the streets?  they may not all be the same people, but the message that is spread on arabic networks that sympathize with the bin laden type people is that we would be bakcing down from them if we just retreated.  There is a power sturggle going on over there, there is the look for weakness by us on their part, yeah if we pull out now, the next person in charge would be some crazy arse cleric, money from their oil reserves would only feed their military again to rebuild the way it and the SAME  damn army would be back in place, just a different person in charge.  we would be blamed for allowing that to happen.
And when did that army attack the United States?

Sure Al Qaeda still exists.  And it will continue to exist regardless of what we do in Iraq.  So what if some cleric takes hold.  I believe that the same thing happened in Iran and their "cleric-led" army didn't attack the US.  To assume that whoever wins a battle for control of Iraq will immediately declare war on the US makes as much sense as all of Bush's rhetoric on why we went there in the first place.

Let the bastards fight it out among themselves.  Let the bullets & grenades land in the laps of fellow Iraqis instead of the laps of US soldiers.

If we are so set to fight terrorists then why not attack Israel for firing into crowds of protestors.  That seems more terroristic to me than people fighting to have some say in the control of their own country.  Oops my bad....I forgot Israelis are good terrorists.
 
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Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2004, 11:46:51 AM »
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But X3, what makes our decisions the right ones?  History has shown that the US isn't very good at picking leaders for foreign countries (Bush shows that Americans aren't very good at picking leaders for our country  :eek2: ).  We have propped up terrible dictators because they agree with US policy....or at least don't openly defy it.  What is the US gaining by remaining in Iraq?

What makes the people that the US has chosen to lead Iraq better than any of the others who want to be involved?  Because the US leaders like the butt kissing that they have received?

The leaders we have picked are being killed.  All we have done is set up a situation where the unrest in the Mideast has a second target to focus on (Israel being #1).  So we are to maintain a military presence in Iraq for how many years?  How long before 18-22 year old Americans say enough of this BS and refuse to join the military?

Bush has shown that he has no sensible plan to get us out of Iraq.  And the longer we stay the more complicated it will become.   How long before our few allies in this war say enough and leave?  How much damage do we do to our relations with the rest of the world before admitting that Bush sucked us into a position between a rock and a hard place?  There is no way for us to remove ourselves from Iraq and accomplish "victory".   But we can try to remove our military and say "we accomplished what we came for.  If we find out that you are coming at us we will return and strike hard."
every country has the right to determine their own destiny Lurker, yes every leader we have picked is being killed off (except for Chalabi) but they are individuals who are willing to take the chance for something they believe in!  would martin luther King Jr back down form doing what he thought  was right if it meant he would die?  what of Malcolm X?  do you think a man becomes president of the US without considering the potetential for what COULD go wrong or happen?  they all have different messages but they all had the right to stand up for what they believed, even if it means that they be killed for it.  the Iraqis deserve the same, we are NOT building their govt, they are, they are trying to, they deserve the chance and the help to do so, afte that, yes they can stray from us, it is their right, but there is also the chance they wont and may actually ally with us.  it is worth the risk, a  of Iraqis may not get it right now, bt they may down the road that we ARE giving them a chance at a better future, there is NO promise it will be better, but SOME chance is better than never having that chance to begin with...


stepping out to lunch be back in an hour...
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2004, 11:51:14 AM »
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that just gives them even more reason to keep this up...
Keep what up?  Exactly what did the Iraqis do to Americans?

We went in to destroy WMDs.  We found none.

We changed our minds...we went in to take out Saddam and we did.  So why are we still there?

To try to stabilize an island in the middle of a sea of instability?  Sounds like a prime reason to continue to risk our military.  Just wait for the Vietnam-like backlash where young people don't see good reasons to voluntarily join the military.
Keep what up?  you really think AL qaeda hasnt moved in?  do you think this insane cleric is not looking to gain more power by his own forces guerilla fighting us in the streets?  they may not all be the same people, but the message that is spread on arabic networks that sympathize with the bin laden type people is that we would be bakcing down from them if we just retreated.  There is a power sturggle going on over there, there is the look for weakness by us on their part, yeah if we pull out now, the next person in charge would be some crazy arse cleric, money from their oil reserves would only feed their military again to rebuild the way it and the SAME  damn army would be back in place, just a different person in charge.  we would be blamed for allowing that to happen.
And when did that army attack the United States?

Sure Al Qaeda still exists.  And it will continue to exist regardless of what we do in Iraq.  So what if some cleric takes hold.  I believe that the same thing happened in Iran and their "cleric-led" army didn't attack the US.  To assume that whoever wins a battle for control of Iraq will immediately declare war on the US makes as much sense as all of Bush's rhetoric on why we went there in the first place.

Let the bastards fight it out among themselves.  Let the bullets & grenades land in the laps of fellow Iraqis instead of the laps of US soldiers.

If we are so set to fight terrorists then why not attack Israel for firing into crowds of protestors.  That seems more terroristic to me than people fighting to have some say in the control of their own country.  Oops my bad....I forgot Israelis are good terrorists.
I dont thinkwe have gotten involved on EITHER sidfe of the arab/isreali conflict for that reason lurk, BOTH sides terrorize the other, try to remember Hamas when you try to make Isreal sound so bad, both sides WONT stop, but we are not sending our troops there, that should give you some sort of happiness in that regard shouldnt it?

your right Lurk, lets not worry about these countries because they didnt send their armies against us, neither did al qaeda, they just got funding from the taliban and were sent a do the work, we should just let them duke it out and not worry about the after, because money from bad govts DOESNT support terror in this world correct?   :nonono:
« Last Edit: May 20, 2004, 11:52:39 AM by SPURSX3 »
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline WayOutWest

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2004, 12:02:42 PM »
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I dont thinkwe have gotten involved on EITHER sidfe of the arab/isreali conflict for that reason lurk, BOTH sides terrorize the other, try to remember Hamas when you try to make Isreal sound so bad, both sides WONT stop, but we are not sending our troops there, that should give you some sort of happiness in that regard shouldnt it?
 
Excuse me but BULLSHYTE!

When was the last time you saw Hamas flying around in an Apache Gunship?  We're NOT talking about Hughies or Cobra's but Apache's!!!

I think it's naive to think the US hasn't taken sides in Isreal.

PLEASE take a look at the Bowling for Colembine film to get an IDEA of what the US has done in other countries.  That's just the start, there's tons more and it's no surprise that people hate us.
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Offline Lurker

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2004, 12:10:55 PM »
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I dont thinkwe have gotten involved on EITHER sidfe of the arab/isreali conflict for that reason lurk, BOTH sides terrorize the other, try to remember Hamas when you try to make Isreal sound so bad, both sides WONT stop, but we are not sending our troops there, that should give you some sort of happiness in that regard shouldnt it?

your right Lurk, lets not worry about these countries because they didnt send their armies against us, neither did al qaeda, they just got funding from the taliban and were sent a do the work, we should just let them duke it out and not worry about the after, because money from bad govts DOESNT support terror in this world correct?   :nonono:
Right, we pick and choose who we think are good terrorists and who are bad ones.  We also get to choose which governments are good ones and which are bad.  And it is based on our point of view.  What makes that point of view right?  Maybe we should attack Spain since their new government doesn't support "our" war.  

Yes the Taliban supported Al Qeada and we went in and dismantled them.  I have always been in full support of that.  But we didn't do the same thing in Iraq.  We stuck our nose in a place that we didn't need to based on faulty info (or Bush's desire for vengence).

And until these countries do send their fighters against us what gives us the right to attack them first?  What makes the US so much better that we can decide to attack some country because we don't like what is going on inside their borders?  Why don't we attack Columbia because we don't like them growing drugs and shipping them to the US?  Why attack Iraq and not Lybia?  Lybia harbors and encourages terrorists.  What made Iraq so different to justify the US military presence there?
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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2004, 12:18:48 PM »
The US HAS taken sides in Israel -- we made that choice after WW2 along with many other countries (most of which have dumped their allegiance for political reasons) to do just that.  

However:  
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When was the last time you saw Hamas flying around in an Apache Gunship? We're NOT talking about Hughies or Cobra's but Apache's!!!

No, they strap bombs to their children and send them out to die!  That's the most atrocious and cowardly thing that I have EVER heard about.

By-the-way, lately the US has criticized Israel in it's use of force against the Palestines -- something they haven't done for a long time.  I'm not sure that I see that as a change in policy but I do, hopefully, see it as the US trying to put some pressure on Israel to strive to work things out diplomatically.  I say that, recognizing that some groups within the Muslim world will NEVER accept Israel as anything other than an enemy.  And when these muslim groups decide to use their children (who look a great deal like Israel's children) as suicide bombers to kill as many innocent Jews as possible, it creates quite a dilemma in the search for peace.  

Offline JoMal

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2004, 12:22:34 PM »
I am sorry SPURSX3, but you are unbelievably naive on this issue.

We cannot impose our own democratic will on the sovereignty of another country that has completely alien beliefs and mores. We are invaders of Iraq; there is no other word for it regardless of the ridiculous rhetoric espoused by Bush's lackeys and the media twist to make it look as if we are eliminating WMD from the region or Hussain from the Iraqi people.

You have three distinct cultures at odds within Iraq, the Shites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds. Their culture, which has been embedded in the region for centuries, not decades, has always been for one to dominate the others. They are not going to create a happy family of some kind of democratic congress to solve regional problems. They are going to kill each other after they kill off as many Americans as possible first.

You are worried how it might look to our terrorist enemies if we withdrew from Iraq under the guise of what might look like defeat? We can't stay in Iraq long enough for us not to have that stigma. We do not have any sort of exit plan in place to leave without them claiming some sort of victory - it simply cannot happen.

Do you know that Saddam and Al Qaida despised each other prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq? Now, Al Qaida is thoroughly embedded in a country where they were not welcome at all just over a year ago. They have brought so many outside people into the country that we will never be able to find them all and erradicate them. They can easily hide amongst all those Iraqi people who want us to stay around as long as possible, as you say, but has it occurred to you that as long as the U.S. provide such easy targets for these terrorists, they will not focus their total attention on them? Blow up several Iraqi's who try to join the police or new military to discourage compliance and take out a U.S. military convoy with a roadside bomb and this could continue into our grandchildren's dotage.

Please tell me something that our world power Amercan government cannot, which is, HOW do you extricate yourself from this morass without losing credibility? Can we hand the headache over to the UN? Not without keeping our military at full strength in Iraq to support them. Give it over to the Iraqi's? How long do you think it will take for Al Qaida to put a Taliban-type government in power, only with more resources then available to them in Afghanistan to export terror? A year? Perhaps two?

The terrorists imported into Iraq to distrupt any attempts by the U.S. to stablize the region can continue unabated for decades, if need be, because they are totally within the Arab network that we can never adequately penetrate. Every time we destroy cities or neighborhoods to eliminate any terrorists cells we can identify comes with the strong likelihood that "former" innocents who possibly supported our presence there will lose their own lives or the lives of their loved ones. And then we will create more enemies, who will turn to their new "friends" to rid their country of the invaders.

The decision to invade Iraq with no concern for the consequences was possibly the stupidest action a U.S. president has ever done. It has endangered not just our current youth, but generations yet to come. It has done more to centralize our terrorist enemies to attack a highly visable target in a way that can only unify the Arab world as no other event could. It has created countless opportunities for these enemies to claim new victims and victories. Every innocent Iraqi killed will be glorified so the next visit by an American convoy or civilian contractors to their town will give them ample opportunities to brag about hanging the dead, burning corpse of the hated American invaders from bridges once again, knowing that Arab TV and biased sound bites will play up the incident and new recruits will come running as it seems to be easier and easier pickings, and backing the winners will give them courage and pride.

The world was on our side after 9/11, but we did not have the right president in office to take advantage of it. We have idiot Bush, who singlehandedly destroyed this good will by stating to all that they were either with us or against us, leaving them essentially in limbo on how to respond.

Forcing action when prudence was demanded, without regard for the long-term consequences has mired us in a chaotic nightmare that will eventually make the Viet Nam War look like a weekend drinking binge.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2004, 12:25:42 PM by JoMal »
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Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2004, 12:25:11 PM »
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I dont thinkwe have gotten involved on EITHER sidfe of the arab/isreali conflict for that reason lurk, BOTH sides terrorize the other, try to remember Hamas when you try to make Isreal sound so bad, both sides WONT stop, but we are not sending our troops there, that should give you some sort of happiness in that regard shouldnt it?
 
Excuse me but BULLSHYTE!

When was the last time you saw Hamas flying around in an Apache Gunship?  We're NOT talking about Hughies or Cobra's but Apache's!!!

I think it's naive to think the US hasn't taken sides in Isreal.

PLEASE take a look at the Bowling for Colembine film to get an IDEA of what the US has done in other countries.  That's just the start, there's tons more and it's no surprise that people hate us.
WOW, the US has NOT SENT MILITARY into that region, we are ISreals biggest ally if not one of their only few.

I have better things to do with my time than look at Michael Moore's garbage...
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2004, 12:36:54 PM »
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I am sorry SPURSX3, but you are unbelievably naive on this issue.

We cannot impose our own democratic will on the sovereignty of another country that has completely alien beliefs and mores. We are invaders of Iraq; there is no other word for it regardless of the ridiculous rhetoric espoused by Bush's lackeys and the media twist to make it look as if we are eliminating WMD from the region or Hussain from the Iraqi people.

You have three distinct cultures at odds within Iraq, the Shites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds. Their culture, which has been embedded in the region for centuries, not decades, has always been for one to dominate the others. They are not going to create a happy family of some kind of democratic congress to solve regional problems. They are going to kill each other after they kill off as many Americans as possible first.

You are worried how it might look to our terrorist enemies if we withdrew from Iraq under the guise of what might look like defeat? We can't stay in Iraq long enough for us not to have that stigma. We do not have any sort of exit plan in place to leave without them claiming some sort of victory - it simply cannot happen.

Do you know that Saddam and Al Qaida despised each other prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq? Now, Al Qaida is thoroughly embedded in a country where they were not welcome at all just over a year ago. They have brought so many outside people into the country that we will never be able to find them all and erradicate them. They can easily hide amongst all those Iraqi people who want us to stay around as long as possible, as you say, but has it occurred to you that as long as the U.S. provide such easy targets for these terrorists, they will not focus their total attention on them? Blow up several Iraqi's who try to join the police or new military to discourage compliance and take out a U.S. military convoy with a roadside bomb and this could continue into our grandchildren's dotage.

Please tell me something that our world power Amercan government cannot, which is, HOW do you extricate yourself from this morass without losing credibility? Can we hand the headache over to the UN? Not without keeping our military at full strength in Iraq to support them. Give it over to the Iraqi's? How long do you think it will take for Al Qaida to put a Taliban-type government in power, only with more resources then available to them in Afghanistan to export terror? A year? Perhaps two?

The terrorists imported into Iraq to distrupt any attempts by the U.S. to stablize the region can continue unabated for decades, if need be, because they are totally within the Arab network that we can never adequately penetrate. Every time we destroy cities or neighborhoods to eliminate any terrorists cells we can identify comes with the strong likelihood that "former" innocents who possibly supported our presence there will lose their own lives or the lives of their loved ones. And then we will create more enemies, who will turn to their new "friends" to rid their country of the invaders.

The decision to invade Iraq with no concern for the consequences was possibly the stupidest action a U.S. president has ever done. It has endangered not just our current youth, but generations yet to come. It has done more to centralize our terrorist enemies to attack a highly visable target in a way that can only unify the Arab world as no other event could. It has created countless opportunities for these enemies to claim new victims and victories. Every innocent Iraqi killed will be glorified so the next visit by an American convoy or civilian contractors to their town will give them ample opportunities to brag about hanging the dead, burning corpse of the hated American invaders from bridges once again, knowing that Arab TV and biased sound bites will play up the incident and new recruits will come running as it seems to be easier and easier pickings, and backing the winners will give them courage and pride.

The world was on our side after 9/11, but we did not have the right president in office to take advantage of it. We have idiot Bush, who singlehandedly destroyed this good will by stating to all that they were either with us or against us, leaving them essentially in limbo on how to respond.

Forcing action when prudence was demanded, without regard for the long-term consequences has mired us in a chaotic nightmare that will eventually make the Viet Nam War look like a weekend drinking binge.
Yes JoMal I am well aware that Saddam did not agree with nor take a liking to Bin LAden or Mohammed Omar prior to his ousting, I am well aware it is DUE to his strong arm tactics and viciousness that kept Al Qaeda, the Kurds and the shiites at bay and for the most part in order.  I am well aware of the severe type of authority it would take to lead that region to some sense of Order, I Am well aware that is WHY saddam laughs at us during his imprisonment.  I know there is no action plan for an exit, I am not argueing that, I simply cannot fathom a "cut and run" being any better than atleast trying to set something up ion order to exit AT THIS POINT.   I am not saying Bush is a saint,nor the best president ever, I am having trouble fathoming what they are thinking in their recent actions of raiding Chalabi's house and the council quarters in Iraq, but i know that leaving everything and letting the place turn into hell itslef is not a good idea.


I know some of you have your own opinion, which is fine, I dont agree with it, and leaving like that I feel would be the single most INSANE thing to do.

we will not save face in this war, no doubt, but you cant just leave without helping the Iraqi people....
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline SPURSX3

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OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2004, 12:45:18 PM »
OT- how many of you look at this in biblical aspect, doesnt it seem as if  babylon is being set up for someone to come in and sweep everything together after we leave?  no this is not why i say stay, i just had this pop into my head right now and the thought put a shiver down my spine.  I know it's far fetched, but still just a weird thought....

ok back to reality at hand, Jomal, I odnt think you give ME enough credit in regard to knowledge of what is transpiring here or the regions history.  I may not know as much detail as you do but i do have a good sense of what is going on in the region.  these people will not see things the way we do here in the UNited States, but they do deserve the chance to find a better way of life, democracy aside, they can still find a better solution while they have the chance.  it is NOT impossible JoMal.
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.