OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?

[Lurker]

we will not save face in this war, no doubt, but you cant just leave without helping the Iraqi people....

But which Iraqi people are we helping?  And what about all the Iraqi people that we aren't helping because they don't agree with us?   Shouldn't they have a say in how their country is run?  

[SPURSX3]

we will not save face in this war, no doubt, but you cant just leave without helping the Iraqi people....

But which Iraqi people are we helping?  And what about all the Iraqi people that we aren't helping because they don't agree with us?   Shouldn't they have a say in how their country is run?

funny you shold say that, Bremer DID - surprisnigly enough to me - say that The Baath Party(is that what they are called?) would be allowed to be in the new govt.  came as a shock to me that they allow them to have a say in the new government...

[Guest_Randy]

Every innocent Iraqi killed will be glorified so the next visit by an American convoy or civilian contractors to their town will give them ample opportunities to brag about hanging the dead, burning corpse of the hated American invaders from bridges once again, knowing that Arab TV and biased sound bites will play up the incident and new recruits will come running as it seems to be easier and easier pickings, and backing the winners will give them courage and pride.

Oh, please!  You really think they NEEDED this in order to continue to spew their poison?  They grow these kids up on a religion that teaches, even in it's best light, that anyone who doesn't embrace Islam is an infidel.  In it's worst light, it teaches that infidel's are scum and deserved to be killed because they stand against Mohammad.  They teach this from the time they are a child and you think that there is a chance that they AREN'T going to believe it?  In addition, the US is hated for several other reasons:  1) the power we possess; 2) capitalism (which they denounce as evil but don't mind taking our money); and 3) our historical alliance with Israel.  Those things are all these Muslim fanatics need to hate -- and it won't make any difference WHAT the US has done or will do -- it won't deter them from hating us no matter how noble we could ever be.

Oh, one more point, the Iraqi's are upset (and reasonably so) for the treatment of fellow Iraqi's in prison.  However, why aren't they upset when an American is beheaded?  That one is justified but what happened in prison isn't.  Face it, they view things at least as one-sidedly as we do (and I think more than we do) -- so force is the ONLY language they can understand.  You do this -- we will do that.  You can't change their philosophy no matter how hard we try so we have to help them realize the consequences.

 

[Lurker]

Oh, please!  You really think they NEEDED this in order to continue to spew their poison?  They grow these kids up on a religion that teaches, even in it's best light, that anyone who doesn't embrace Islam is an infidel.  In it's worst light, it teaches that infidel's are scum and deserved to be killed because they stand against Mohammad.  They teach this from the time they are a child and you think that there is a chance that they AREN'T going to believe it?  In addition, the US is hated for several other reasons:  1) the power we possess; 2) capitalism (which they denounce as evil but don't mind taking our money); and 3) our historical alliance with Israel.  Those things are all these Muslim fanatics need to hate -- and it won't make any difference WHAT the US has done or will do -- it won't deter them from hating us no matter how noble we could ever be.

Oh, one more point, the Iraqi's are upset (and reasonably so) for the treatment of fellow Iraqi's in prison.  However, why aren't they upset when an American is beheaded?  That one is justified but what happened in prison isn't.  Face it, they view things at least as one-sidedly as we do (and I think more than we do) -- so force is the ONLY language they can understand.  You do this -- we will do that.  You can't change their philosophy no matter how hard we try so we have to help them realize the consequences.

And I guess that means the Muslim religion in America has been bastardized.  I don't see Muslims here or in Europe running around trying to kill all the "infidels".  Actually Mohammed preached a religion of peace and tolerance.

And Americans are upset over a beheading but many feel that whatever happened in the prison was justified.  Again it all depends on your point of view.  And what makes the American point of view more justified?

[JoMal]

SPURSX3, the question still begs answering. HOW can this be done?

The Iraqi people, above all others, know how tenuous any peace might be once the U.S. abandons their country. Because of the invasion, the door opened for foreign agents to infiltrate the Iraq. Their presence within the framework of any U.S. brokered government weakens the entire effort.

The Al Quada have a tremendously effective propaganda system in place amongst the Arab media that can sully any American effort to stablize the region. That means that nothing the U.S. accomplishes has much of a chance for survival. Our handpicked leaders for the country can easily be targeted and replaced with more compliant principals.

Where all this leaves us, SPURSX3 is in a total quagmire. Now that we are there, we CANNOT leave with the type of dignity you suggest. Al Quada, for one, will try to prevent that at all costs.

If we were only dealing with the Iraqi people and trying to create a positive system of government for only them, we could see that light at the end of the tunnel you feel we need prior to leaving the country. But the invasion, while ousting a tyrant, opened the door for our terrorist enemies to exploit the vacuum. They are good at it. We are a super power with no identifiable enemy targets that excludes killing innocents as well, leaving us rather impotent already in the eyes of the world.

How do you think we are already being perceived by the Arab world? By our allies? By other enemy countries? Bush's plan was to show American resolve in dealing with hostile governments with military might. To then suggest that we are the good guys while occupying these countries must be the height of hypocracy to the locals. It also allows for too much unintended support for terrorists to recruit new members on the premise of ousting the invading super power.

We played this hand so poorly that cutting our losses now is preferable to prolonging their victory. As we are on an economic bend today, let me put it in those terms - you never throw good money after bad. If a bad investment is going sour, adding more money to it is never a good course of action.  

[jn]

It's not terribly surprising.  You simply can't rebuild a government without using at least some of the previous bureaucracy.  The comparison here has been Germany and the denazification and debaathification process.  In WWII the State Department was charged with assigning levels of participation to the Nazis and those deemed to have been been followers or forced into compliance were allowed to participate.  Those deemed "ardent" Nazis were supposed to be prevented from being part of the new government while those deemed to have committed crimes against humanity were to be put on trial.  Of course it didn't turn out that way as a number of really evil mofos were considered to important to the rebuilding process and never answered for their crimes. In the case of the U.S. space program they were rewarded with plum jobs at NASA.

Anyhoooo my point is in this case the decision to strip ANY Baath party member of civil service jobs was highly impractical and flew in the face of other successful rebuilding jobs.  Rumsfelds and Wolfowitz decisionmaking in this regard is more questionable than in any other aspect, IMHO.

It will be a tougher job in Iraq to figure out who did what under Saddam than it was in German because the Nazis were such prolific record keepers.  

[Guest_Randy]

Oh, please!  You really think they NEEDED this in order to continue to spew their poison?  They grow these kids up on a religion that teaches, even in it's best light, that anyone who doesn't embrace Islam is an infidel.  In it's worst light, it teaches that infidel's are scum and deserved to be killed because they stand against Mohammad.  They teach this from the time they are a child and you think that there is a chance that they AREN'T going to believe it?  In addition, the US is hated for several other reasons:  1) the power we possess; 2) capitalism (which they denounce as evil but don't mind taking our money); and 3) our historical alliance with Israel.  Those things are all these Muslim fanatics need to hate -- and it won't make any difference WHAT the US has done or will do -- it won't deter them from hating us no matter how noble we could ever be.

Oh, one more point, the Iraqi's are upset (and reasonably so) for the treatment of fellow Iraqi's in prison.  However, why aren't they upset when an American is beheaded?  That one is justified but what happened in prison isn't.  Face it, they view things at least as one-sidedly as we do (and I think more than we do) -- so force is the ONLY language they can understand.  You do this -- we will do that.  You can't change their philosophy no matter how hard we try so we have to help them realize the consequences.

And I guess that means the Muslim religion in America has been bastardized.  I don't see Muslims here or in Europe running around trying to kill all the "infidels".  Actually Mohammed preached a religion of peace and tolerance.

And Americans are upset over a beheading but many feel that whatever happened in the prison was justified.  Again it all depends on your point of view.  And what makes the American point of view more justified?

If you actually read what I said, Lurker, you would have seen that I stated:

They grow these kids up on a religion that teaches, even in it's best light, that anyone who doesn't embrace Islam is an infidel.  In it's worst light, it teaches that infidel's are scum and deserved to be killed because they stand against Mohammad.

I never said that Muslims in America strive to kill Americans -- in fact, I never stated that all Muslims want to kill.  What I said was that even in it's best light, anyone who isn't a Muslim is an "infidel" -- do you think that's a word that can have positive connotations?  Muslim teaches a great deal of hate -- it's one of the reasons why they cater more to the African-American innercity community -- because their message of hate (esp. against the white man who wants to "keep them down) is more eagerly accepted -- same is true in many prisons today as well.  They have a RIGHT to do as they feel and desire but that changes when it infringes on MY rights.  Many Muslims decry the murder that has been done in the name of Allah -- however, there are also many who feel it's justified and many in our area who have celebrated publicly when Americans have been killed.  I know that's their right but I don't have to like it.

I will say that if these people (and I'm not putting ALL Muslims in this category -- just the radical ones) can't be reasoned with than we have to teach them the consequences of hurting Americans.  There simply isn't another way.
 

[jn]

Randy,

For the record that is not Islam in it's best light.  The best light would be the importance stressed on showing respect for "People of the Book", which would be Christians and Jews. That actually worked pretty well through the early stages of Islam with large numbers of both (particularly Jews) living within the Muslim world.  The militancy really began to grow as a reaction to the Crusades and in particular, the period when Islam was almost wiped out by the Crusaders from the West and the Mongols from the East.   The desire for survival meant the end of the early, more tolerant version of Islam.  

[SPURSX3]

SPURSX3, the question still begs answering. HOW can this be done?

The Iraqi people, above all others, know how tenuous any peace might be once the U.S. abandons their country. Because of the invasion, the door opened for foreign agents to infiltrate the Iraq. Their presence within the framework of any U.S. brokered government weakens the entire effort.

The Al Quada have a tremendously effective propaganda system in place amongst the Arab media that can sully any American effort to stablize the region. That means that nothing the U.S. accomplishes has much of a chance for survival. Our handpicked leaders for the country can easily be targeted and replaced with more compliant principals.

Where all this leaves us, SPURSX3 is in a total quagmire. Now that we are there, we CANNOT leave with the type of dignity you suggest. Al Quada, for one, will try to prevent that at all costs.

If we were only dealing with the Iraqi people and trying to create a positive system of government for only them, we could see that light at the end of the tunnel you feel we need prior to leaving the country. But the invasion, while ousting a tyrant, opened the door for our terrorist enemies to exploit the vacuum. They are good at it. We are a super power with no identifiable enemy targets that excludes killing innocents as well, leaving us rather impotent already in the eyes of the world.

How do you think we are already being perceived by the Arab world? By our allies? By other enemy countries? Bush's plan was to show American resolve in dealing with hostile governments with military might. To then suggest that we are the good guys while occupying these countries must be the height of hypocracy to the locals. It also allows for too much unintended support for terrorists to recruit new members on the premise of ousting the invading super power.

We played this hand so poorly that cutting our losses now is preferable to prolonging their victory. As we are on an economic bend today, let me put it in those terms - you never throw good money after bad. If a bad investment is going sour, adding more money to it is never a good course of action.

see thats where you and I differ JoMal, I DO think we could stabalize the region enough to make a good exit, however Rummy and friends screwed that over with the fact they expect to win this war on iron man power and sent in shallow numbered forces to do this job,  they should have more troops in place to lock down on targets and cover their own backs, they dont have that right now, we are too scattered in this country to do an effective job of security or to combat guerilla tactics, and no 4000 troops from south korea is not gonna cut it.  

the fact is this JoMal, we made a difference in Afghanistan, a small difference, but one nonetheless, we CAN do that in Iraq also.  it was never promised this wold be easy, and we never stated we would rebuild the govt, but we cant leave the people that want our help alone to die.

[JoMal]

Oh, please!  You really think they NEEDED this in order to continue to spew their poison?  They grow these kids up on a religion that teaches, even in it's best light, that anyone who doesn't embrace Islam is an infidel.  In it's worst light, it teaches that infidel's are scum and deserved to be killed because they stand against Mohammad.  They teach this from the time they are a child and you think that there is a chance that they AREN'T going to believe it?  In addition, the US is hated for several other reasons:  1) the power we possess; 2) capitalism (which they denounce as evil but don't mind taking our money); and 3) our historical alliance with Israel.  Those things are all these Muslim fanatics need to hate -- and it won't make any difference WHAT the US has done or will do -- it won't deter them from hating us no matter how noble we could ever be.

Oh, one more point, the Iraqi's are upset (and reasonably so) for the treatment of fellow Iraqi's in prison.  However, why aren't they upset when an American is beheaded?  That one is justified but what happened in prison isn't.  Face it, they view things at least as one-sidedly as we do (and I think more than we do) -- so force is the ONLY language they can understand.  You do this -- we will do that.  You can't change their philosophy no matter how hard we try so we have to help them realize the consequences.

That was one of the most one-sided and misguided things you have ever said, Randy.

The religion of Islam does not teach hatred of infidels and that they are scum and deserve to be killed because they stand against Mohammed. Islamic fanatics use their OWN interpretation of Islam to recruit those of their culture who can be persuaded to their cause. Our being allies with Israel carrys much more weight then Islamic teachings. Our invading a sovereign Islamic nation carries more weight. Making easy and available targets to encourage future recruitments has more weight.

If all Arabs actually followed the teaching in the Koran, the conflict would not have happened in the first place. It takes a spark to ignite the rancor, and the U.S. is busy pooring gasoline from one end of Iraq to the other.  

[Reality]

Side point and question,

Granted the source was Rummy, however his comments had the ring of truth.  He said a bipartisan group of Hillys went to Iraq.  Toured a bunch of places.  He said they all concurred that many good things were happening, ie schools being built, children attending that had never gone to a day of school, hospitals refurbished, fresh water where it never had been, etc etc on a large scale but that the media reports next to zero of this.

Don Henleys "Give Us Dirty Laundry"?

[JoMal]

the fact is this JoMal, we made a difference in Afghanistan, a small difference, but one nonetheless, we CAN do that in Iraq also.  it was never promised this wold be easy, and we never stated we would rebuild the govt, but we cant leave the people that want our help alone to die.

We just had a better plan for Afghanistan. Plus, the Taliban's ouster was directly related to their support of the terrorist who attacked us.

The invasion of Iraq just did not have the direct purpose as it did in Afghanistan. It now looks to have been solely for the benefit of profit. It came with too many lies and was based on believing bad information on WMD's. It has created a melting pot of radicals to join together with the glorious mission of ousting an invading army, which was soon followed by American contractors who have all the appearances of carpetbaggers. We cannot resolve this illusion to the Arab world by remaining as occupiers, setting up our own puppet regime.

Anyone we leave in power there will automatically be associated with us and assumed to be under our control. While in Afghanistan this is necessary for the stability of the country and the region, with Iraq, right in the middle of Arabia, we are not going to win over enough Arab allies to make this work.

It has thoroughly sunk our credibility in the Arab world, and as stated, our continued presence there will never change that or improve it, but might help unite Arab opinion more and more against us. How could it ever not?

[Guest_Randy]

Oh, please!  You really think they NEEDED this in order to continue to spew their poison?  They grow these kids up on a religion that teaches, even in it's best light, that anyone who doesn't embrace Islam is an infidel.  In it's worst light, it teaches that infidel's are scum and deserved to be killed because they stand against Mohammad.  They teach this from the time they are a child and you think that there is a chance that they AREN'T going to believe it?  In addition, the US is hated for several other reasons:  1) the power we possess; 2) capitalism (which they denounce as evil but don't mind taking our money); and 3) our historical alliance with Israel.  Those things are all these Muslim fanatics need to hate -- and it won't make any difference WHAT the US has done or will do -- it won't deter them from hating us no matter how noble we could ever be.

Oh, one more point, the Iraqi's are upset (and reasonably so) for the treatment of fellow Iraqi's in prison.  However, why aren't they upset when an American is beheaded?  That one is justified but what happened in prison isn't.  Face it, they view things at least as one-sidedly as we do (and I think more than we do) -- so force is the ONLY language they can understand.  You do this -- we will do that.  You can't change their philosophy no matter how hard we try so we have to help them realize the consequences.

That was one of the most one-sided and misguided things you have ever said, Randy.

The religion of Islam does not teach hatred of infidels and that they are scum and deserve to be killed because they stand against Mohammed. Islamic fanatics use their OWN interpretation of Islam to recruit those of their culture who can be persuaded to their cause. Our being allies with Israel carrys much more weight then Islamic teachings. Our invading a sovereign Islamic nation carries more weight. Making easy and available targets to encourage future recruitments has more weight.

If all Arabs actually followed the teaching in the Koran, the conflict would not have happened in the first place. It takes a spark to ignite the rancor, and the U.S. is busy pooring gasoline from one end of Iraq to the other.

That was one of the most one-sided and misguided things you have ever said, Randy.

The religion of Islam does not teach hatred of infidels and that they are scum and deserve to be killed because they stand against Mohammed. Islamic fanatics use their OWN interpretation of Islam to recruit those of their culture who can be persuaded to their cause. Our being allies with Israel carrys much more weight then Islamic teachings. Our invading a sovereign Islamic nation carries more weight. Making easy and available targets to encourage future recruitments has more weight.

How about trying to actually READ what I post before deciding I am one-sided and misguided.  

First, I never said that the entire religion of Islam teaches hatred of infidels -- I stated that Islam teaches that anyone who doesn't embrace Allah and Mohammed as infidels -- and that, whether you want to admit it or not, is NOT a term of flattery.  Infidels ARE to be looked down on whether it's with pity or anger -- it's usually one of the two.  

And as for invading a sovereign Islamic nation -- funny how they never seemed to mind Iraq invading Kuwait.  That was just FINE with them -- it's only a problem when the US gets involved (which goes back to the preconcieved ideas they already had about the US because of the reasons I already gave.  It was okay for Iraq to invade an Islamic nation but horrible for the US to save Kuwait (and even worse for Saudi to give sanction and help to us in doing so).  

Saddam was a HERO in the Middle East for the way he was snubbing his nose at the US and the world (through the UN).  

None of these problems are going to just "disappear" because the US leaves Iraq (and/or the Middle East).  Look at the news media in the middle east -- they definately spin truth to fit their own agenda -- even if it's the boldest of lies -- and yet, somehow, that's okay in the eyes of Allah -- wonder why?  Because they are saying it about infidels -- and that's okay.  

I'm not saying all Muslims hate the US, however, there are a lot more radical groups that teach hate than just about any religion that I see or hear about.  In the Muslims that I have known, I've known several who were kind and gracious -- but they were the exception, not the rule.  Most of the Muslims that I know didn't hate the US but hated whites with a passion.  Still not sure I understand all of that.

[spursfan101]

the fact is this JoMal, we made a difference in Afghanistan, a small difference, but one nonetheless,

Agree with you 100% JOMAL.  And as far as the quote above...

WE DID??  Once we leave, the Taliban is poised to strike back and retake their country.

[JoMal]

What I said was that even in it's best light, anyone who isn't a Muslim is an "infidel" -- do you think that's a word that can have positive connotations?  Muslim teaches a great deal of hate -- it's one of the reasons why they cater more to the African-American innercity community -- because their message of hate (esp. against the white man who wants to "keep them down) is more eagerly accepted -- same is true in many prisons today as well.

First off, the religion of Islam is attractive to some American Blacks because it is the religion of their African ancesters more then any message of hate, which any true Black Muslim in this country will tell you they abhore because of what they HAVE been taught from the Koran.

All "Infidel" means is unfaithful, as in infidelity. Both Muslims and Christians use the term for the same purpose -that others who do not believe as they do are unfaithful to the true religion. It is not a rallying cry for war against unbelievers, just how they are identified.

It also is commonly used to refer to atheists of both sects.

Religion is the opium of the morasses.