OT: Could the beheading have been stagged?

[westkoast]

Click on the link below to see the photos that go along with the text I pasted below.  Anything posted below is not from me.  I simply copy and pasted because I thought it was intresting.  Another internet conspiracy theory nonetheless.  Not something easy to swallow so if you think this will be a little thick please just close the thread.  I do not want to offend anyone.




http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=354134




First of all, I know this is largely Pit material, but I feel that news of this caliber deserves the increased exposure of the main forum. Please keep replies intelligent, honest, topical, and free of slander against me. Debate the topic, not the person who brought it up.

Sources for all my facts can be found at the bottom, they are labeled according to subject.

That having been said...

Many of you might remember that I started a thread on the day the video was released noting how "convenient" it was that the tape had come out, just as the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal was in full swing. Not only did this take the abuse scandal off of headlines, but it swayed public opinion back against "those fucking Iraqis".

Evidence

1) Most people replied by asserting that the execution occured as retribution to the abuse photos that had surfaced, but you have to ask yourself - do these terrorists, who are clearly capable of brainwashing people to the point where they are willing to kill and be killed for their beliefs, really have no concept of political tact? Here they are, the whole world screaming at the US for hypocrisy and injustice over these pictures, and they perform and publish this execution right in the heat of the scandal. In other words, these masters of brainwashing and spin and deception release a video of a despicable act just as the US, their sworn enemy, is being globally grilled. Does this make sense to you?

2) Second, I wonder what the standard issue chair is at Abu Ghraib prison?



*cough*

3) Is it not interesting that the wall colour at Abu Ghraib prison is identical to that of the video?

4) Is it not also interesting that Berg is wearing the same orange jumpsuit worn by prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison? Sure, you say, perhaps he was kidnapped directly from the prison (as stupid as this sounds, anyway) - but then can you please explain (7)?

5) Is it also not interesting that the timecodes in the video jump back and forth?

6) Is it also not interesting that Berg did not exhibit any of the convulsions that typically accompany decapitation? http://www.ahsc.arizona.edu/uac/iacuc/rodents/avma.htm I am suggesting here that Berg was already dead when the decapitation occured (which accounts for 5). Before you go calling me crazy, please review the evidence; why did he not exhibit the convulsions that go hand in hand with decapitation (especially such an extended one)?

7) Is it not curious that the US denies contact with Berg, and yet his friends and family insist that he told them he was being held by the US? Huh? Why?

Another tape oddity - the men SPEAK RUSSIAN for several seconds. Not only that, but they speak Arabic with Russian accents. That's right, in the final seconds of the tape, one of the men speaks in Russian. Those here who understand russian (and have the stomach to view that final seconds of the video) can verify this. Those who speak Arabic will be able to verify that these men speak Arabic in Russian accents.

9) Finally (the physical evidence that will convince you in case you already aren't)...
You will notice, in watching the video, that 6 times, a gold ring flashes on the hand of the executioner. What is the problem? Islam completely and utterly forbids men to wear gold rings. This fanatical muslim, willing to kill in a gutwrenching manner, and be killed for his beliefs, is violating one of the clear prohibitions of his religion? Really? DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

edit:
Two more points:

10) Nick Berg understands Arabic, but sits calmy while statement is read, waiting to be killed. Hmm?

11) One of the executioners is wearing Air Jordans. WHAT?

edit 2:

12) The "terrorists" signed the video, yet they wear hoods and masks. Why?

13) The "terrorists" have lily white hands.

14) The video time is in US Military English. What the hell?

Conclusion
As many has suspected, but have not had the time to build a solid case for, the execution of Nick Berg was performed by coalition interests (most likely independent Russian mercenaries) in order to dwarf the abuse pictures and sway public opinion back against the Iraqis and in support of the war by taking advantage of the emotional reaction we all experience when hearing of such an despicable act. The poor production quality (all the "curiosities" I have pointed out) of this video can be attributed to the haste in which it was made after the order was given to distract the public from the abuse scandal, and is in line with my conclusion.

Again, before you attack my conclusion, attack my evidence. No matter how crazy you think this sounds, examine the evidence objectively and please try to deny a single thing I have said. If you cannot deny my evidence, you logically cannot deny my conclusion. Make your replies free of subjective opinions and ad hominem attacks or I will not reply to them.


Sources:

Chair, wall, timecode, and :
http://www.libertyforum.org/showfla...=-1#Post1469025
http://www.news24houston.com/conten...D=28906&SecID=2

Berg was in US custody:
http://www........./2004/WORLD/meast...ends/index.html
(you'll have to copy & paste this one since genmay blocks cnn links as you know)

Gold rings forbidden by Islam:
http://www.khilafah.com/home/catego...ID=9529&TagID=2
http://www.google.com/search?q=gold...=utf-8&oe=utf-8

The execution video can be seen here (warning, extremely graphic): http://temp.eyecannon.com/iraq2vediom.wmv


PS: In other news, the video that the US used to incriminate Bin Laden in masterminding the 9/11 attacks was a fake. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html Judge for yourself. I will be doing another post on this once I gather more information. Once you have made up your mind, please ask yourself why the government would want to fake Bin Laden's guilt, which apparently justified the entire Afghanistan war (where an oil pipeline is now being built, which the Taliban had refused to allow).

[WayOutWest]

:eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:

I'll have to read this again after I come down from my Laker high!

[SPURSX3]

ok all the links are did or dont lead anywhere.  the video i saw was grainy - IF there was a conspiracy, i am sure that is why they used such low grade film, how could the focus not be better with a camcorder what 20 feet at most away from these people and Berg.  I for one did not see a "gold ring" being flashed, as for the tennis shoes, hey i cant saythat is a sign that these are americans or russian or whateve, the brand is sold world wide and could be picked up any where, becuase they are on does NOT mean they were purchased in freaking Iraq - and even if they were, it is NOT that impossible to believe, despite hating our politics, the world LOVES our brand name products.  Is it soo hard to believe these shoes could be bought in the middle east??  

the white hands.....umm, they were wearing gloves, I think Wow saw that video also - i think he could say the same as well, from what I saw, they were gloves.

the color scheme, there COULD be smoe validity that it could have been in the prison as well if it were a cover up, but it could also be that that particular color is common in Iraq, not a big deal of proof there chief...

why was Berg wearing the coloered uni...?

my understanding is that Begr was the type of person that like to help people, my feeling is that after being abducted Berg figured he would do the best he could to "cooperate" with  these abducters, there is video footage of Berg talking, he states his name, where he is from, his fathers name and so on - and he looked in good health, no bruises or scratches or anything like that.  i did nto know if Berg understood arabic or not.  it is possible - if you noticed Berg has a middles eastern trim of beard, it is not western that is...  my feeling is they treated him well knowing full well what they were going to do to him, they found a guy who was soft and willing to buy into their crap of "not going to hurt him, but they want to send a message to the US." etc.  that would explain some of his calmness during the read.  he could have also have been drugged, who knows, the fact is the video i saw was crappy to begin with and there was a lag in the knife being pulled to hmi being pushed to the ground, a lag in audio where the screams starts and dont match with the video, i think this was just the editing during posting it on the web.  even if he was drugged he would not be to lucid during the reading of the note, however even the most drugged up person COULD become sober seeing death coming IMO - how do you know that he is alive?  stomach the video and watch, he had the facial expressions to prove it.  i have had horrible images going thourgh my head since watching that film anf there is no doubt in my mind he WAS alive, and either didnt know or didnt think it would happen. why?  because if he was cooperating they treated him well enough,but lied to him.  the last few remaining seconds of the film show the other mean holding him down, Berg screaming, and the expression on his face displayed fear, pain, and yes - when the throat is slit his muscles do relax due to blood loss but yet you can still tell he is in PAIN!!  who could a dead man do that!!!  This man was murdered, and mudered on film, i am sorry to have ever seen it.  the reaction it gave was that if given the chance i would have done anything to save this guy, weapon in hand or not, NOBODY deserves to be taken that way.

I can say that this COULD be seen as a cover up, but i wouldnt bet on it, i think this was the real deal and i think it was the enemy that did it.

ps - if you cant watch the film, find the audio and jusvt listen to the speach before the slaying, I would be hard pressed to find anybody but and expert linguist to eb able to tell me that there was some sort of russian accent, or russian being spoken in the film - even if there were - hey al qaeda set up shop in afghanistan and took russian arms in their reign - is it soo hard to believe that this language would not be secondary to someone from that region??

the conspiracy theory doesnt hold water.  and IMO i think it is sad when every damn thing the enemy does has to be questioned as to whether or not we did it or not.

pps... i dont think the links worked on the original site, looks like nobody else got to verify any information at all either on this....

 

[SPURSX3]

one more reason i dont think this was a cover up...it is leading to more investigations,  look at what is happenning in afghanistan, anothe probe into the prisons there, why would the US be stupid enough to do this when it will only lead to investigations at CAMP X-RAY?!  this would not help the US whatsoever no matter what political party you were in, every leader in the US could be held accountable for this.....

[gaither]

I watched the video too. I don't think Berg had any idea that he was going to be excecuted until the pushed him to the floor and began sawing his head off. There was no way that that part was acted. The expression on his face said everything (I turned off the sound because I knew wouldn't be able to stand the screaming.) These sword or machete they used was obviously dull, because they had to keep sawing back and forth, and you could see Berg's mouth moving so he was obviously still alive for most of the execution. Not a fake. No way.

For those of you who want to watch this video to form your own opinion. I watched it at the following address:
http://www.topweddinglinks.com/NickBerg.html

It's very gruesome, so beware.

[WayOutWest]

I'm starting to lean towards fake.

To summarize, the debateable points (debateable because none of us can say one way or another if there are accents, etc...)

Things that make you go hmmmmmm:

1.)The guys are fat/chubby, strange considering these guys are fighting rebels under some very harsh conditions.

2.)Guys are too white for that region.

3.)They're not dressed like people in the region

4.)Total lack of blood durring the cutting.  When you cut someone's throat/neck, you're taught to push the head down because blood can squirt anywhere from 3 to 8 (EIGHT) feet high from the arteries in the neck and make a very load noise.  Having your blade acros the artery durring the cutting would be like pointing your garden house ON FULL BLAST about a 1/4 inch off the ground, water/blood goes in every direction uncontrolably.

5.)The terrorists refer to the pictures/atrocities of Iraqi prisoners TWO WEEKS before the pictures were released and the incident made the news.  :eek2:

6.)Just as the terrorists are about to cut his throat the camera zones in way too close and shakes so you cannot tell what's happening at the MOST crucial point.  Kinda like a cheap movie that can't afford special effects so they block out your view so they can pull the switch-a-roo.

Seems that Nick was already dead, thank goodness, and the beheading was stagged for shock value.  Assuming it was fake, who did it and why?

[jn]

Two points I think I can explain.  If they are paler and speaking in Russian it could well be they are Chechens who came to Iraq.  Also the West is unsure what Al Zahawri(sp?) actually looks like.  Descriptions of him are based on brief sightings years ago.  In order to maintain his ability to move freely he has let Bin Laden be the public face of Al Qaeda.  

An example of how well he has done this is the fact for years it was taken as gospel that he could be spotted by a crippled or missing leg.  Only in the past year have Western intelligence agencies come to realize that they really have no way of knowing that.  

[rickortreat]

Maybe it was staged, but I don't think so.  And, in the grand scheme of things it's not important.

Here's what is important.  We went in there and took out Saddam Hussein and now we're trying to stabilize the country and help Iraquis put it back together.  

But it will be a long time before we can leave and feel confident Iraq won't descend into a violent civil war and a dysfuntional society where terrorist run free and decent honest people are scared.

Remember, that Saddam ruled with an Iron fist.  All the Iraquis have known through modern history is rule by force.  You didn't toe the line, Saddam took you out.  So you shut up and smiled.

Now, were trying to establish a rule of law- where people have rights and those rights are protected by the government.  Freedom to belive and worship as you want.  Free to own property and be prosperous without fear of having your hard work confiscated by thugs.  Freedom to enjoy life and the fruits of you labor.

Iraqis have no concept of this, and many of them don't seem to like us.  They don't trust us, and are suspicious.  There are also a lot of them motivated to grab power and control for themselves, disreguarding the rights of others.

Iran would love to see the Shia come in power in Iraq.  The Sunnis are terrified of the retribution comming for all the abuse they metted out to the Shia and the Kurds.  Before we went there, there were as many problems, but you didn't hear about them, because no-one was paying attention.  But thousands of Kurds were gassed to death by Saddam.  

These religious leaders who are causing all the problems would have been killed by Saddam before they ever go to a position where they could mobilize an Army.  

We don't want to kill these people, we want them to sit down with each other and work it out peacefully.  This is a huge thing for the Arab world, as there are no well-organized functional states anywhere.  A peacefull stable Iraq would change the political landscape in the Middle East for the better, practially a quantum leap from their current political state.

Frankly, I don't like the way the US is handling this role at all.  They made a big mistake backing down in Fallujah- now they don't repect or fear us.  I would have napalmed the whole area and made it clear that we wouldn't tolate any crap at all.  Someone shoots and rpg at a Humvee and we take out the town.  Horrible- you bet, but the Iraquis understand fear and confuse it with respect.  If you don't have an iron will, they see that as weakness. Very bad situation, and difficult for Americans who grew up under the rule of law to understand.  

 

[Lurker]

But it will be a long time before we can leave and feel confident Iraq won't descend into a violent civil war and a dysfuntional society where terrorist run free and decent honest people are scared.

And who appointed the US military as judge, jury & executioner?  So what if they descend into a blody & violent civil war.  Let them fight it out.  We have no clue as to how to set up a government for a Muslim nation.

We took out Saddam....the back up reason for going into Iraq.  We dide what we set out to accomplish.  Now pull out and let the chips fall where they may.  Let the Egyptians, or Saudis help to stabilize the region.  But bring the US soldiers home.

[SPURSX3]

But it will be a long time before we can leave and feel confident Iraq won't descend into a violent civil war and a dysfuntional society where terrorist run free and decent honest people are scared.

And who appointed the US military as judge, jury & executioner?  So what if they descend into a blody & violent civil war.  Let them fight it out.  We have no clue as to how to set up a government for a Muslim nation.

We took out Saddam....the back up reason for going into Iraq.  We dide what we set out to accomplish.  Now pull out and let the chips fall where they may.  Let the Egyptians, or Saudis help to stabilize the region.  But bring the US soldiers home.

it never fails to amaze me how you choose that line of rational whe it is JUST that kind of thinking that set up Al Qaeda in the first place, AND saddam husseins regime.  we went in and tried to help at first, then just left them to their own devices and look what resulted from it on both fronts!  I cant imagine what new terror would arrise in the void of Saddam and Al Qaeda if we did just up and leave either of the two countries we are trying to help... :huh:  

[Lurker]

But it will be a long time before we can leave and feel confident Iraq won't descend into a violent civil war and a dysfuntional society where terrorist run free and decent honest people are scared.

And who appointed the US military as judge, jury & executioner?  So what if they descend into a blody & violent civil war.  Let them fight it out.  We have no clue as to how to set up a government for a Muslim nation.

We took out Saddam....the back up reason for going into Iraq.  We dide what we set out to accomplish.  Now pull out and let the chips fall where they may.  Let the Egyptians, or Saudis help to stabilize the region.  But bring the US soldiers home.

it never fails to amaze me how you choose that line of rational whe it is JUST that kind of thinking that set up Al Qaeda in the first place, AND saddam husseins regime.  we went in and tried to help at first, then just left them to their own devices and look what resulted from it on both fronts!  I cant imagine what new terror would arrise in the void of Saddam and Al Qaeda if we did just up and leave either of the two countries we are trying to help... :huh:

So we are going to conquer and control the whole world?  There will always be "terrorists" or thugs or mongols or huns or nazis or some despicable human group that will cause problems.  They exist in countries around the world.  Eliminating them in Iraq will just move them to other places that we don't know about.  And if there is a long battle for control they will kill each other off.  Right now they have a common target.....American soldiers.

We don't understand the culture.  We don't understand the religion.  And we don't understand why they don't want us to shove our "ideal" down their throats.  But hey we know better so those stupid towel-headed robe-wearing idiots need to listen.  Right?   :huh:  

[SPURSX3]

But it will be a long time before we can leave and feel confident Iraq won't descend into a violent civil war and a dysfuntional society where terrorist run free and decent honest people are scared.

And who appointed the US military as judge, jury & executioner?  So what if they descend into a blody & violent civil war.  Let them fight it out.  We have no clue as to how to set up a government for a Muslim nation.

We took out Saddam....the back up reason for going into Iraq.  We dide what we set out to accomplish.  Now pull out and let the chips fall where they may.  Let the Egyptians, or Saudis help to stabilize the region.  But bring the US soldiers home.

it never fails to amaze me how you choose that line of rational whe it is JUST that kind of thinking that set up Al Qaeda in the first place, AND saddam husseins regime.  we went in and tried to help at first, then just left them to their own devices and look what resulted from it on both fronts!  I cant imagine what new terror would arrise in the void of Saddam and Al Qaeda if we did just up and leave either of the two countries we are trying to help... :huh:

So we are going to conquer and control the whole world?  There will always be "terrorists" or thugs or mongols or huns or nazis or some despicable human group that will cause problems.  They exist in countries around the world.  Eliminating them in Iraq will just move them to other places that we don't know about.  And if there is a long battle for control they will kill each other off.  Right now they have a common target.....American soldiers.

We don't understand the culture.  We don't understand the religion.  And we don't understand why they don't want us to shove our "ideal" down their throats.  But hey we know better so those stupid towel-headed robe-wearing idiots need to listen.  Right?   :huh:

so in that case i guess having a military is futile then??  I mean why bother suiting our men and women up if they are just going get killed anyway right, whayt have law enforcment in our cities if there will be crome anyway...why see doctors if we are all just going to die anyway....like i said, i just dont get that way of thinking...

[WayOutWest]

Anybody seen the documentary "Bowling for Colembine"?  It's a documentary revolving around guns and murders in America.  The shootings at Colemine (sic?) High School is at the core of the film.

After watching that film can you honestly say OUR ideals and beliefs are WORTHY of shoving down someone's throat?

The beheading of Berg was such a big deal to alot of people, yet about 3 or so years ago some AMERICAN slits the throat of a 10 year old boy in an Oceanside beach bathroom not more than 10 feet from his mother and somehow the MONSTERS are all in Iraq.

I really DON'T think we should be in Iraq but we have to do something to get out and not give our enemies the impression we are weak and lacking resolve.  I think we need to remind the world that we are TRUELY the MONSTERS of the world and Nagasaki some mo-fo's.  Women and children ARE NOT a line we will NOT cross.

In short, better yours than mine, sucks but that's the honest truth.

[Lurker]

so in that case i guess having a military is futile then??  I mean why bother suiting our men and women up if they are just going get killed anyway right, whayt have law enforcment in our cities if there will be crome anyway...why see doctors if we are all just going to die anyway....like i said, i just dont get that way of thinking...

No. There is still viable and valuable reasons to have a military.  Defense or retaliation.  

But pre-emptive strikes on faulty intelligence causing the US to invade another sovereign nation?  What makes that any different than what Hitler did to Poland?  He thought that his way of life was better and was just trying to "help" poor misguided countries find the "right" way.

What makes the US so morally above any other nation that only our leaders can decide what is right or wrong in the world?  The fact that we have the biggest weapons? Sorry but I don't buy it and IMO neither did the founding fathers of this country.

[Lurker]

why see doctors if we are all just going to die anyway....like i said, i just dont get that way of thinking...

You see doctors because you CHOOSE to see a doctor.   Then you CHOOSE whether to follow the doctor's recommendations.   Or you CHOOSE to seek other advice.  The Iraqis did NOT CHOOSE for the Americans to invade their country and then hang around to tell them how to live.  

If you can't see the difference then I'm not sure how to better word the argument.