Top 5 revisited

[Reality]

Reading is fundamental Reality.

And Odom does not have the same amount of 17-24 point games this season.  So you are 'probably' better off checking stats before you 'probably' make a statement :lol:

This is a stone cold fact that Kobe does not have the offensive minded Odom that Wade had.  Its far from baseless, you can check stats or watch the games yourself.  All point to the fact that Kobe does not have the same Odom.  Everyone will tell you that because its in broad day light for everyone to see.

Shaq did not get them to the finals which is what he was brought in to do.  So while he did help, they did not win so that point is moot.

 

Instead I'll just say "Odom has/is  dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis" for the Lakers.  Then just backpedal if the stats don't add up.

Randy says "Odom IS doing some great things for the Lakers -- his fg% is solid (47% (just above his career ave. I believe), His ppg, are right at average -- INCLUDING during Kobe's 45.5 January tear, Odom is averaging almost 10 rpg (a career best) and almost a career best in assists per game (almost 6 apg).

Stone Cold!  Sure does support your assertion that "its in broad day light for everyone to see."

oops here i go quoting you again.
"This is a stone cold fact that Kobe does not have the offensive minded Odom that Wade had. Its far from baseless, you can check stats or watch the games yourself. All point to the fact that Kobe does not have the same Odom. Everyone will tell you that because its in broad day light for everyone to see."


Shaq was a failure in that before injury they had the near best record and in playoffs bringing them 60 seconds from the Finals.  It is exactly the same as Kobes sub .500 non playoff year.  Everyone can see that. :rofl:  :unsure:

Wade had a great year with Odom.  Made him a better player.
 

[Guest_Randy]

No what I am doing is pointing out the differences between Wade's squad that went to the second round and the Kobe squad last year that did not make the playoffs.  I have given you various reasons on how the teams varied but as usual its like talking to the wall.  I guess one out of every 4 games is not consistant ehh?   I clearly stated 'hovered around on above 25'Reality, Shaq helping an already stacked team in the EC where you could get in with a .500 record doesn't count for as much as you would like it.  Shaq didn't get his team to the 3rd round and couldn't get them to the finals.  So right now the only thing Shaq has done without Kobe is sit on a team that has a player who has enough drive to pick up the slack for Shaq when his body breaks down.

In your attmepts to prove Koubee had a lesser Odom to work with then Wade did, you initially claimed 'Zo was playing center for the Heat.  You have since retracted.  Thank you for the Zo retraction.

Next, your exact quote was "Odom also was not dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis"  Which you are now backpedaling to "I clearly stated 'hovered around on above 25'.  Perhaps you go repeat these two to a wall.  See if the response differs.

You then lower it to "And how many of those were 22-23-24 point games? Quite a number. He was the leading scorer almost every few games."   Which he was, about 1 in 4.  Whether or not that is "every few games" or not, its okay with me.  

Reality is, Odom probably has about the same number of consistent 17-24 pt games with the Lakers as he had with the Heat.  Of course I can't verify that because espn.com only lists the high scorer, not the 2nd high scorer.  With Wade, Odom was often the high scorer and Wade the high assist man.  With the Lakers Kobe has been the high scorer almost the entire past two seasons.

Playoffs?  Wade was the high assist man in 12 of 14 Heat-Odom games.  Kobe sits at zero.  

Your claims that Wade had such a better Odom then Kobe has are baseless.  
Randolph, your post suggests Odom is as good or better as a Laker.

Shaq at 60% certainly did help the Heat vs Pistons.  To all objective viewers. [/quote]
 Okay, Reality -- time for a "reality" check:

With Wade, Odom was often the high scorer and Wade the high assist man. With the Lakers Kobe has been the high scorer almost the entire past two seasons.

Where IS your proof on this?  In Miami, Odom experienced the "highest" average in his career -- 17.1 ppg.  So Odom was OFTEN the high scorer?  That means that Wade must have average LESS than 17.1 points per game, right?  Well, if Odom was the #1 man at 17 points per game (and Wade was right about the same number of points) then that means TOGETHER they scored 34 points per game -- they must have had a WHOLE lot of people scoring points, huh, 'cause 34 points per game isn't going to win many contests!

Can you name ONE other #2 option who scores 17 points per game?  This is ONLY going to happen when a team has a number of consistent scorers (Detroit, SA, etc.) -- you can't use that for the Lakers.  The only other person who has a chance of scoring 20 points with any consistency is Smush Parker (who is probably a better #2 scoring option for the Lakers than Odom).  

Randy says "Odom IS doing some great things for the Lakers -- his fg% is solid (47% (just above his career ave. I believe), His ppg, are right at average -- INCLUDING during Kobe's 45.5 January tear, Odom is averaging almost 10 rpg (a career best) and almost a career best in assists per game (almost 6 apg).

Again with that selective reading thing again -- I said that his ppg are about average -- I NEVER showed that he is doing anything that could be considered a #2 option offensively (in fact, I stated that he couldn't).  Odom does a great job in rebounding the basketball and helping run the offense (also shooting a solid fg%).  However, you are twisting my words to fit your own agenda and you need to be called on it.

Shaq was a failure in that before injury they had the near best record and in playoffs bringing them 60 seconds from the Finals. It is exactly the same as Kobes sub .500 non playoff year. Everyone can see that.

Hmm, notice what happened WITHOUT Shaq in Miami?  Miami STILL won (hmm, again ignoring key facts)!  However, Wade goes down and Miami STILL has Shaq and the Pistons win?  

So without Wade, how many playoff series has Shaq won?  'Cause THAT is closer to a fairer assessment of Kobe's situation last year.  

Also, you make it sound like it was Wade and Odom alone -- in fact, Eddie Jones averaged as many points that year as Odom or Wade did.  I'm not sure about the rest of the roster that year -- but I wonder who else helped in Miami that year averaging around the same number of points per game?

[westkoast]

Yes Reality, Wade made everyone on that team such a better player with his 4.5 assists per game.  About what "Kobme" gets per game but he doesn't make his teammates better.  Wade made Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom score 17 a piece that year with 4.5 assists per game!  

If you cared to watch Miami that year you would actually have realized that the reason they ended up getting to the second round and pushed Indy to 7 games is because Wade decided to take over the games on the offensive end by scoring and really could not be stopped.  Sounds to me like you didn't even watch Wade in that series.

I notice you have not said very much about the list of players for the Wolves.  I know Tom Goog's is a scrub averaging 21 points and 8 rebounds a game for the Wolves when he was suited up for them!  Marbury, bonafide scrub, only avg 20 and 10 assists while a Timberwolf.  Terrel Brandon, see above bonafide scrub, only 6th man of the year in the black and teal.

[Laker Fan]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5272520...40813162&ATT=73

Interesting article, one I'm inclined to agree with on many points.

[Skandery]

I don't know if I can be as eloquent in the expression of my opinion as our esteemed JoMaL (great post by the way), but here goes.  

I think that its only natural; that in the wake of a 45 point a game TEAR that Kobe's been on the last few weeks, to just anoint him as one of the greatest players alive today.  Heck I've read posts and articles in the past two days ready to claim that Kobe Bryant is the most dynamic scoring guard of all time.  Steve Kerr (a Yahoo analyst nowadays) claimed that Kobe's 81 point performance eclipsed Jordan's 69 point performance which he was on hand for (being on the Cleveland roster), and he's already set to just hand Kobe Bryant the MVP trophy for the 05-06 season; claiming that nothing Billups, Nowitzki, Brand, Duncan, James, or Wade could do for the rest of the season that could take it away.  Now superlatives aside, bias aside, emotions aside: Kobe Bryant gave the greatest single game scoring performance ever since I've been watching the game of basketball, period.  Like him or dislike him, I can bow down to a performance like that.    

Does that give him a free pass on his tendency to shoot his teams OUT of games, as well as into them.  Does that give a free pass should the Lakers miss the playoffs for the second year in a row.  Does that give him a free pass should the Lakers underachieve where a Dallas or Detroit or L.A. Clippers team overachieves.  No it shouldn't.  

I've posted many, many times on this forum that Kobe Bryant is easily a Top 5 basketball player based purely on skills and athleticism, heck Top 3!!!  IMO, he's right there with Kevin Garnett and LeBron James when it comes to sheer basketball prowess.  Now then Kobe Bryant doesn't make my Top 5 basketball players in the league because of other attributes.  Such as his affect concerning team chemistry, his affect concerning outside distractions, and to some extent his over-zealous belief that to do it right--he has to do it himself.  To me Garnett exhibits basketball prowess as well as a positive force for team chemistry.  Same with Duncan (whose not anywhere near as talented as Kobe).  Same with LeBron (who has the talent but not the experience of Kobe).  Same with Dirk (who has the talent but not the passion of Kobe).  Same with Shaq (who has the talent but not the youth of Kobe).  None of these guys exhibit the package of talent, experience, and passion of Kobe, they also don't exhibit the selfishness, the lack of leadership, nor the petty nature that Kobe brings to the table.  

Kobe's flaws as a TEAM basketball player (which people like to forget to mention is a TEAM game) keep him from being a Top 5 NBA player today for me, pure and simple.  When a Kobe led team over-achieves in my eyes: playing good, solid, winning basketball, than I will gladly admit my error and place him on my Top 5.      

 

[Reality]

Yes Reality, Wade made everyone on that team such a better player with his 4.5 assists per game.  About what "Kobme" gets per game but he doesn't make his teammates better.  Wade made Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom score 17 a piece that year with 4.5 assists per game!  

If you cared to watch Miami that year you would actually have realized that the reason they ended up getting to the second round and pushed Indy to 7 games is because Wade decided to take over the games on the offensive end by scoring and really could not be stopped.  Sounds to me like you didn't even watch Wade in that series.

I notice you have not said very much about the list of players for the Wolves.  I know Tom Goog's is a scrub averaging 21 points and 8 rebounds a game for the Wolves when he was suited up for them!  Marbury, bonafide scrub, only avg 20 and 10 assists while a Timberwolf.  Terrel Brandon, see above bonafide scrub, only 6th man of the year in the black and teal.

Your twos new twist-spin is to add in Eddie Jones.  Who by the way, Kobme played with Jones and Shaq for two seasons in  1997-1998.
 :rofl: Eddie Jones sure did help Miami stave off elimination by Indy.
"Rookie Dwyane Wade drove for a layup to cut the lead to 71-69 with 47 seconds to play, and a turnover game Miami the ball back with 26.1 seconds remaining.

But Eddie Jones shot an airball from close range, the ball going over the backboard.
"I tried to get it over Jermaine O'Neal, but I missed the shot," said Jones, who shot 6-of-21.

As to westkoasts watching Wade "take over games on the offensive end", he was not the high scorer in 3 of the 4 Heat wins.  Was high assister tho. B)

Here is the game 4 clincher you "*SAW WAde take over at the offensive end."

 SCORE MIAMI
12:00 Start of the 4th Quarter.
11:37   53-65 Brian Grant made Layup.
10:29   53-67 Lamar Odom made 21 ft Jumper.
9:42   55-69 Lamar Odom made 19 ft Jumper. Assisted by Dwyane Wade.
8:06   55-71 Dwyane Wade missed 13 ft Two Point Shot.

4:09   63-73 Lamar Odom made Tip Shot.
3:28   65-73 Dwyane Wade missed 17 ft Jumper.
3:00   68-75 Brian Grant made Layup. Assisted by Dwyane Wade.
2:26   70-77 Lamar Odom made Two Point Shot.
2:09   70-78 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 1 of 2.
2:09   70-79 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 2 of 2.
1:31   71-79 Dwyane Wade missed 18 ft Jumper.
1:29 George Lynch Defensive Rebound. 71-79  
0:42   73-81 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 2 of 2.
0:32   75-83 Dwyane Wade made Dunk. Assisted by Rafer Alston.
0:11   77-85 Eddie Jones made Free Throw 2 of 2.
 
0:00 End of the 4th Quarter

Its the same for the Heats Game 3 win.  It's been nice but I'm going to leave you twisters now....

[Laker Fan]

I don't know if I can be as eloquent in the expression of my opinion as our esteemed JoMaL (great post by the way), but here goes.  

I think that its only natural; that in the wake of a 45 point a game TEAR that Kobe's been on the last few weeks, to just anoint him as one of the greatest players alive today.  Heck I've read posts and articles in the past two days ready to claim that Kobe Bryant is the most dynamic scoring guard of all time.  Steve Kerr (a Yahoo analyst nowadays) claimed that Kobe's 81 point performance eclipsed Jordan's 69 point performance which he was on hand for (being on the Cleveland roster), and he's already set to just hand Kobe Bryant the MVP trophy for the 05-06 season; claiming that nothing Billups, Nowitzki, Brand, Duncan, James, or Wade could do for the rest of the season that could take it away.  Now superlatives aside, bias aside, emotions aside: Kobe Bryant gave the greatest single game scoring performance ever since I've been watching the game of basketball, period.  Like him or dislike him, I can bow down to a performance like that.    

Does that give him a free pass on his tendency to shoot his teams OUT of games, as well as into them.  Does that give a free pass should the Lakers miss the playoffs for the second year in a row.  Does that give him a free pass should the Lakers underachieve where a Dallas or Detroit or L.A. Clippers team overachieves.  No it shouldn't.  

I've posted many, many times on this forum that Kobe Bryant is easily a Top 5 basketball player based purely on skills and athleticism, heck Top 3!!!  IMO, he's right there with Kevin Garnett and LeBron James when it comes to sheer basketball prowess.  Now then Kobe Bryant doesn't make my Top 5 basketball players in the league because of other attributes.  Such as his affect concerning team chemistry, his affect concerning outside distractions, and to some extent his over-zealous belief that to do it right--he has to do it himself.  To me Garnett exhibits basketball prowess as well as a positive force for team chemistry.  Same with Duncan (whose not anywhere near as talented as Kobe).  Same with LeBron (who has the talent but not the experience of Kobe).  Same with Dirk (who has the talent but not the passion of Kobe).  Same with Shaq (who has the talent but not the youth of Kobe).  None of these guys exhibit the package of talent, experience, and passion of Kobe, they also don't exhibit the selfishness, the lack of leadership, nor the petty nature that Kobe brings to the table.  

Kobe's flaws as a TEAM basketball player (which people like to forget to mention is a TEAM game) keep him from being a Top 5 NBA player today for me, pure and simple.  When a Kobe led team over-achieves in my eyes: playing good, solid, winning basketball, than I will gladly admit my error and place him on my Top 5.

I'm in the same boat you were earlier Skander, simply no time to disect your post right now, hopefully later because it will be like shooting fish in a barrel.  :rolleyes:  

[Guest_Randy]

Yes Reality, Wade made everyone on that team such a better player with his 4.5 assists per game.  About what "Kobme" gets per game but he doesn't make his teammates better.  Wade made Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom score 17 a piece that year with 4.5 assists per game! 

If you cared to watch Miami that year you would actually have realized that the reason they ended up getting to the second round and pushed Indy to 7 games is because Wade decided to take over the games on the offensive end by scoring and really could not be stopped.  Sounds to me like you didn't even watch Wade in that series.

I notice you have not said very much about the list of players for the Wolves.  I know Tom Goog's is a scrub averaging 21 points and 8 rebounds a game for the Wolves when he was suited up for them!  Marbury, bonafide scrub, only avg 20 and 10 assists while a Timberwolf.  Terrel Brandon, see above bonafide scrub, only 6th man of the year in the black and teal.

Your twos new twist-spin is to add in Eddie Jones.  Who by the way, Kobme played with Jones and Shaq for two seasons in  1997-1998.
 :rofl: Eddie Jones sure did help Miami stave off elimination by Indy.
"Rookie Dwyane Wade drove for a layup to cut the lead to 71-69 with 47 seconds to play, and a turnover game Miami the ball back with 26.1 seconds remaining.

But Eddie Jones shot an airball from close range, the ball going over the backboard.
"I tried to get it over Jermaine O'Neal, but I missed the shot," said Jones, who shot 6-of-21.

As to westkoasts watching Wade "take over games on the offensive end", he was not the high scorer in 3 of the 4 Heat wins.  Was high assister tho. B)

Here is the game 4 clincher you "*SAW WAde take over at the offensive end."

 SCORE MIAMI
12:00 Start of the 4th Quarter.
11:37   53-65 Brian Grant made Layup.
10:29   53-67 Lamar Odom made 21 ft Jumper.
9:42   55-69 Lamar Odom made 19 ft Jumper. Assisted by Dwyane Wade.
8:06   55-71 Dwyane Wade missed 13 ft Two Point Shot.

4:09   63-73 Lamar Odom made Tip Shot.
3:28   65-73 Dwyane Wade missed 17 ft Jumper.
3:00   68-75 Brian Grant made Layup. Assisted by Dwyane Wade.
2:26   70-77 Lamar Odom made Two Point Shot.
2:09   70-78 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 1 of 2.
2:09   70-79 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 2 of 2.
1:31   71-79 Dwyane Wade missed 18 ft Jumper.
1:29 George Lynch Defensive Rebound. 71-79  
0:42   73-81 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 2 of 2.
0:32   75-83 Dwyane Wade made Dunk. Assisted by Rafer Alston.
0:11   77-85 Eddie Jones made Free Throw 2 of 2.
 
0:00 End of the 4th Quarter

Its the same for the Heats Game 3 win.  It's been nice but I'm going to leave you twisters now....

Hmm, first you complain because that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better but Wade does -- and then you complain about the fact that Eddie Jones plays poorly (averaged 2 points in the playoffs off his average -- Wade average +2 points per game -- Odom average right at his regular season average).

So, let me get this right:
  Wade is better than Kobe because Wade makes his teammates better.
  If Kobe's teammates don't play great, it's Kobe's fault.
  BUT if Wade's teammates don't play better none of it is Wade's fault.

Well, your reality certainly hasn't changed!

[westkoast]

Yes Reality, Wade made everyone on that team such a better player with his 4.5 assists per game.  About what "Kobme" gets per game but he doesn't make his teammates better.  Wade made Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom score 17 a piece that year with 4.5 assists per game! 

If you cared to watch Miami that year you would actually have realized that the reason they ended up getting to the second round and pushed Indy to 7 games is because Wade decided to take over the games on the offensive end by scoring and really could not be stopped.  Sounds to me like you didn't even watch Wade in that series.

I notice you have not said very much about the list of players for the Wolves.  I know Tom Goog's is a scrub averaging 21 points and 8 rebounds a game for the Wolves when he was suited up for them!  Marbury, bonafide scrub, only avg 20 and 10 assists while a Timberwolf.  Terrel Brandon, see above bonafide scrub, only 6th man of the year in the black and teal.

Your twos new twist-spin is to add in Eddie Jones.  Who by the way, Kobme played with Jones and Shaq for two seasons in  1997-1998.
 :rofl: Eddie Jones sure did help Miami stave off elimination by Indy.
"Rookie Dwyane Wade drove for a layup to cut the lead to 71-69 with 47 seconds to play, and a turnover game Miami the ball back with 26.1 seconds remaining.

But Eddie Jones shot an airball from close range, the ball going over the backboard.
"I tried to get it over Jermaine O'Neal, but I missed the shot," said Jones, who shot 6-of-21.

As to westkoasts watching Wade "take over games on the offensive end", he was not the high scorer in 3 of the 4 Heat wins.  Was high assister tho. B)

Here is the game 4 clincher you "*SAW WAde take over at the offensive end."

 SCORE MIAMI
12:00 Start of the 4th Quarter.
11:37   53-65 Brian Grant made Layup.
10:29   53-67 Lamar Odom made 21 ft Jumper.
9:42   55-69 Lamar Odom made 19 ft Jumper. Assisted by Dwyane Wade.
8:06   55-71 Dwyane Wade missed 13 ft Two Point Shot.

4:09   63-73 Lamar Odom made Tip Shot.
3:28   65-73 Dwyane Wade missed 17 ft Jumper.
3:00   68-75 Brian Grant made Layup. Assisted by Dwyane Wade.
2:26   70-77 Lamar Odom made Two Point Shot.
2:09   70-78 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 1 of 2.
2:09   70-79 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 2 of 2.
1:31   71-79 Dwyane Wade missed 18 ft Jumper.
1:29 George Lynch Defensive Rebound. 71-79  
0:42   73-81 Rafer Alston made Free Throw 2 of 2.
0:32   75-83 Dwyane Wade made Dunk. Assisted by Rafer Alston.
0:11   77-85 Eddie Jones made Free Throw 2 of 2.
 
0:00 End of the 4th Quarter

Its the same for the Heats Game 3 win.  It's been nice but I'm going to leave you twisters now....

You are talking about me twisting when I am talking about the entire season...you know the part of the year that you need to do well in to make the playoffs?  That is what we are speaking about, the help during the regular season that got them to the playoffs.    And you are coming back at me with playoff stats on Eddie Jones (doesn't Wade always make his teammates better? He did for 82 games why not these playoff games) ?!  Can you stay on track here Reality?  Twisting isnt even the word to describe what your doing....id call it setting a brand new course in a different direction.

I'll leave it at that since you entire post shows exactly how bias you are against the Lakers and Kobe.  Randy sumed it up for me nicely!

So, let me get this right:
Wade is better than Kobe because Wade makes his teammates better.
If Kobe's teammates don't play great, it's Kobe's fault.
BUT if Wade's teammates don't play better none of it is Wade's fault.

Well, your reality certainly hasn't changed!

[Guest_Randy]

I don't know if I can be as eloquent in the expression of my opinion as our esteemed JoMaL (great post by the way), but here goes.  

I think that its only natural; that in the wake of a 45 point a game TEAR that Kobe's been on the last few weeks, to just anoint him as one of the greatest players alive today.  Heck I've read posts and articles in the past two days ready to claim that Kobe Bryant is the most dynamic scoring guard of all time.  Steve Kerr (a Yahoo analyst nowadays) claimed that Kobe's 81 point performance eclipsed Jordan's 69 point performance which he was on hand for (being on the Cleveland roster), and he's already set to just hand Kobe Bryant the MVP trophy for the 05-06 season; claiming that nothing Billups, Nowitzki, Brand, Duncan, James, or Wade could do for the rest of the season that could take it away.  Now superlatives aside, bias aside, emotions aside: Kobe Bryant gave the greatest single game scoring performance ever since I've been watching the game of basketball, period.  Like him or dislike him, I can bow down to a performance like that.    

Does that give him a free pass on his tendency to shoot his teams OUT of games, as well as into them.  Does that give a free pass should the Lakers miss the playoffs for the second year in a row.  Does that give him a free pass should the Lakers underachieve where a Dallas or Detroit or L.A. Clippers team overachieves.  No it shouldn't.  

I've posted many, many times on this forum that Kobe Bryant is easily a Top 5 basketball player based purely on skills and athleticism, heck Top 3!!!  IMO, he's right there with Kevin Garnett and LeBron James when it comes to sheer basketball prowess.  Now then Kobe Bryant doesn't make my Top 5 basketball players in the league because of other attributes.  Such as his affect concerning team chemistry, his affect concerning outside distractions, and to some extent his over-zealous belief that to do it right--he has to do it himself.  To me Garnett exhibits basketball prowess as well as a positive force for team chemistry.  Same with Duncan (whose not anywhere near as talented as Kobe).  Same with LeBron (who has the talent but not the experience of Kobe).  Same with Dirk (who has the talent but not the passion of Kobe).  Same with Shaq (who has the talent but not the youth of Kobe).  None of these guys exhibit the package of talent, experience, and passion of Kobe, they also don't exhibit the selfishness, the lack of leadership, nor the petty nature that Kobe brings to the table.  

Kobe's flaws as a TEAM basketball player (which people like to forget to mention is a TEAM game) keep him from being a Top 5 NBA player today for me, pure and simple.  When a Kobe led team over-achieves in my eyes: playing good, solid, winning basketball, than I will gladly admit my error and place him on my Top 5.

Does that give him a free pass on his tendency to shoot his teams OUT of games, as well as into them. 

Hmm, you don't seem to complain when Dirk shoots his team OUT of games -- or did I miss those posts?  With Howard, Terry, Daniels, Stackhouse, etc. -- you would think he WOULD share the ball when he is shooting poorly, right?  

Does that give a free pass should the Lakers miss the playoffs for the second year in a row. 

Hmm, why is it that you are judging him as if the Lakers already missed the playoffs when, right now, they WOULD make the playoffs.  Umm, where are these comments about Garnett?  There just seems to be a double standard employed here.

Does that give him a free pass should the Lakers underachieve where a Dallas or Detroit or L.A. Clippers team overachieves.  No it shouldn't.

The Lakers are underachieving?  WOW!!!   :bounce:  :bounce: How far into the playoffs did you pick them?  Most thought that the Lakers would be LUCKY to make it as the last team in the playoffs.  

Dallas, Detroit or the Clips are overachieving?  Let's see, the Lakers just beat Dallas and the Clips?  Hmm, but the Lakers are underachieving while the teams they are beating are overachieving?  I think you have been spending too much time in a different "reality" -- this logic just doesn't make sense!

Kobe's flaws as a TEAM basketball player (which people like to forget to mention is a TEAM game) keep him from being a Top 5 NBA player today for me, pure and simple.  When a Kobe led team over-achieves in my eyes: playing good, solid, winning basketball, than I will gladly admit my error and place him on my Top 5.

You know what I think IS interesting about all of this?  It's this -- the Lakers ARE winning!  And while the Lakers offense is DEFINATELY centered around Kobe Bryant -- the defense isn't -- and the defense is more responsible for winning games than the offense is, isn't it?  And isn't DEFENSE a team concept?  Doesn't it take the WHOLE team to play defense?  Can you explain why Kobe is a detriment on one end of the court and not the other?  

Umm, if KG is such a dominant team player -- then why isn't Minny doing better defensively?  Oh, I know -- because they lost their defensive stopper -- Sam Cassell, right?  Oh, it's all because Spree left, right?  

I think there are some MAJOR double standards in the criteria you are applying.

There ARE some knocks that you can make against Kobe -- but the idea that he isn't a top 5 player isn't an objective one!

[Laker Winnin Juice]

You are talking about me twisting when I am talking about the entire season...you know the part of the year that you need to do well in to make the playoffs?  That is what we are speaking about, the help during the regular season that got them to the playoffs.    And you are coming back at me with playoff stats on Eddie Jones (doesn't Wade always make his teammates better? He did for 82 games why not these playoff games) ?!  Can you stay on track here Reality?  Twisting isnt even the word to describe what your doing....id call it setting a brand new course in a different direction.

I'll leave it at that since you entire post shows exactly how bias you are against the Lakers and Kobe.  Randy sumed it up for me nicely!

So, let me get this right:
Wade is better than Kobe because Wade makes his teammates better.
If Kobe's teammates don't play great, it's Kobe's fault.
BUT if Wade's teammates don't play better none of it is Wade's fault.

Well, your reality certainly hasn't changed!

[/quote]
 If you cared to watch Miami that year you would actually have realized that the reason they ended up getting to the second round and pushed Indy to 7 games is because Wade decided to take over the games on the offensive end by scoring and really could not be stopped. Sounds to me like you didn't even watch Wade in that series.

contrasted with:

You are talking about me twisting when I am talking about the entire season...you know the part of the year that you need to do well in to make the playoffs?  That is what we are speaking about, the help during the regular season that got them to the playoffs.

Another truckload Boss.
 

[westkoast]

You are talking about me twisting when I am talking about the entire season...you know the part of the year that you need to do well in to make the playoffs?  That is what we are speaking about, the help during the regular season that got them to the playoffs.    And you are coming back at me with playoff stats on Eddie Jones (doesn't Wade always make his teammates better? He did for 82 games why not these playoff games) ?!  Can you stay on track here Reality?  Twisting isnt even the word to describe what your doing....id call it setting a brand new course in a different direction.

I'll leave it at that since you entire post shows exactly how bias you are against the Lakers and Kobe.  Randy sumed it up for me nicely!

So, let me get this right:
Wade is better than Kobe because Wade makes his teammates better.
If Kobe's teammates don't play great, it's Kobe's fault.
BUT if Wade's teammates don't play better none of it is Wade's fault.

Well, your reality certainly hasn't changed!

If you cared to watch Miami that year you would actually have realized that the reason they ended up getting to the second round and pushed Indy to 7 games is because Wade decided to take over the games on the offensive end by scoring and really could not be stopped. Sounds to me like you didn't even watch Wade in that series.

contrasted with:

You are talking about me twisting when I am talking about the entire season...you know the part of the year that you need to do well in to make the playoffs?  That is what we are speaking about, the help during the regular season that got them to the playoffs.

Another truckload Boss. [/quote]
 Someone needs to visit the wizard of Oz for a brain.

Talk about twisting, for 2 solid pages we are talking about Odom, Wade's help, and how the Lakers did not make the playoffs with the same lineup but the Heat did.  One tid bit is added about Wade using the Kobme attack in the playoffs and you go off on a tangent.  Eddie Jones playoff numbers do not reflect his contribution to the team in the regular season.  The part of the year that you need to do well in to get into the playoffs .  So sorry, insert another quarter and try again.

Did you watch the two series Reality?  Cuz I remember perfectly Wade willing his team to win by slashing into the lane and takeover the games.

Oh wait...I even made a thread about it here

http://www.phillyarena.net/forums/index.ph...owtopic=675&hl=

WOW!!!  So much for revisionist Reality ehhh?
 

[Guest_Randy]

You are talking about me twisting when I am talking about the entire season...you know the part of the year that you need to do well in to make the playoffs?  That is what we are speaking about, the help during the regular season that got them to the playoffs.    And you are coming back at me with playoff stats on Eddie Jones (doesn't Wade always make his teammates better? He did for 82 games why not these playoff games) ?!  Can you stay on track here Reality?  Twisting isnt even the word to describe what your doing....id call it setting a brand new course in a different direction.

I'll leave it at that since you entire post shows exactly how bias you are against the Lakers and Kobe.  Randy sumed it up for me nicely!

So, let me get this right:
Wade is better than Kobe because Wade makes his teammates better.
If Kobe's teammates don't play great, it's Kobe's fault.
BUT if Wade's teammates don't play better none of it is Wade's fault.

Well, your reality certainly hasn't changed!

If you cared to watch Miami that year you would actually have realized that the reason they ended up getting to the second round and pushed Indy to 7 games is because Wade decided to take over the games on the offensive end by scoring and really could not be stopped. Sounds to me like you didn't even watch Wade in that series.

contrasted with:

You are talking about me twisting when I am talking about the entire season...you know the part of the year that you need to do well in to make the playoffs?  That is what we are speaking about, the help during the regular season that got them to the playoffs.

Another truckload Boss. [/quote]
 Hmm, so it's okay when WADE takes over a game and can't be stopped -- but it's NOT okay when Kobe takes over a game and can't be stopped?   You need to be careful -- you are twisting yourself in the wind here -- pretty soon you are going to be a pretzel!

[WayOutWest]

Enough *NOT* said.

81 points is incredible.  I'm not doubting that in any way.

But can you honestly say you'd rather have Kobe on your team than Duncan?  Duncan's never had 80.  Duncan's never had 70.  Duncan's never had 60.  I don't think Duncan has ever had 50...or even 40.  And what that tells me is that being top 5 isn't about putting up ungodly scoring numbers.

There are four players who are definitely top 5 in the league:  Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, and LeBron James.  I can make solid arguments for a number of players for that last remaining spot - including Kobe Bryant.  But it's *FAR* from a lock.

WTF?  Joe you must be sniffing glue to make LeBron I haven't done squat, don't play D and develop an allergy to the ball in crunch time James a lock on top 5.

I'll now return to the thread after being distracted by that brain FART induced statement.
 

[WayOutWest]

Garnett has never missed the playoffs - perhaps - but last year, his "not missing them" meant watching them on TV like the rest of us.

oh zing you got me.  

What is he, 8 of 9 with those powerhouse TWolves lineups.

Actually, many thought the TWolves had a legit shot at challenging for an NBA title last year -- so I don't know what lame line-up you think the TWolves have.  I'd DEFINATELY say that the TWolves have more talent than the Lakers overall but they aren't playing better than .500 ball.

Tell me about.  The Wolves had basically the same squad that went to the WCF and they didn't even make the playoffs.  I guess we need to take KG off the list as well.