Top 5 revisited

[Laker Fan]

81 points, enough said.

[Joe Vancil]

Enough *NOT* said.

81 points is incredible.  I'm not doubting that in any way.

But can you honestly say you'd rather have Kobe on your team than Duncan?  Duncan's never had 80.  Duncan's never had 70.  Duncan's never had 60.  I don't think Duncan has ever had 50...or even 40.  And what that tells me is that being top 5 isn't about putting up ungodly scoring numbers.

There are four players who are definitely top 5 in the league:  Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, and LeBron James.  I can make solid arguments for a number of players for that last remaining spot - including Kobe Bryant.  But it's *FAR* from a lock.

[Laker Fan]

Come on Joe, your bitterness is showing through again!

Prodigious scoring (how about that word Skander!) is NOT the only criteria I or any Laker fan has ever used for arguing whether Kobe belongs in the top 5 or not, we've argued his defense, his freethrows, his game overall plus his drive, 81 points is merely the exclamation point to the argument.

[Joe Vancil]

Really?  I thought your message said:

81 points, enough said.

I've argued SEVERAL times - and will continue to argue - that Kobe's defense is overrated simply due to the particular style.  I'll easily concede that Bryant is an excellent free-throw shooter, and be glad to say that more players should be like him in that regard, even more especially if they're either 1) a ball-handler or 2) a person who is considered a go-to player.  And there's no doubt that Kobe's overall game is an excellent one.

However, his drive is one of the knocks I have on Bryant.  It doesn't command the respect of teammates - it ALIENATES them.  Give me the drive of Bill Russell...or even of Michael Jordan...because those were productive, and pulled the entire team together.  A leader COMMANDS the respect of his teammates - not DEMANDS the respect of his teammates.

And let's get to the REAL criticism of Bryant that I have:  name one teammate that Bryant ever made better.  One teammate that he elevated to All-Star level of success or a high level of recognition in some form or fashion.

Lamar Odom?  Nope.  Odom was the #1 option in Miami before coming to the Lakers.  Yet I hear Laker fans here say he's not capable of being the #2 option for the team.  Derek Fisher?  Look at the year he's having in Golden State.  Robert Horry?  Horry was a key component of Houston championship teams.  Even Mark Madsen is well-respected as a heart-and-hustle player in Minnesota.

The closest we can come is Smush Parker, this year.  That's not saying much.

Bryant has a tendency to hold players back - not to elevate them.  And that's a *VERY* bad trait.

 

[Skandery]

Prodigious scoring (how about that word Skander!)

Eh, how about "copious amounts of scoring", guess I'm feeling wordy today.  

As to your re-visitation to the Top 5.  When Kobe's all-around performance on the court translates to a harmonious (<-- eh) and cohesive team attack that leads to a significant amount of wins for the cinderella Lakers to break into the playoffs at a 7th seed or higher (I pre-season predicted they might squeak in at the eighth-so not good enough), then he's a Top 5 guy to me.  Sounds harsh; but if you're the best, I expect the best.


As a fellow shooting guard---81 points---     :hail:  :hail:  

[SPURSX3]

I think Kobe is on his way to possibly become top 5.  I would not say he is in the same ranks as Jordan - despite 81 points - and this is not hating on him - but Kobe is starting to show that he can impose his will upon the game itself - atleast it is starting to look that way.  That being said, if he can do this over and over again it would set him apart from the others as one of the toughest players in the league - tough in the sense that you just can't stop him no metter what you throw at him - how else could you explain his performance, it's just will power.  incredible will power.  Props to Kobe on his TWO big games this season.  I still think the 62 pointer could have ended up in the 80's.

[westkoast]

Can someone explain to me how Shaq is making the top 5 list as of today?  I understand him being hurt dented his numbers but the last 2-3 weeks he has been far from dominating.  The other night against the Spurs, a team they could possibly face if they were to make the NBA Finals, he has 10 points and 6 rebounds (Reality brought this up the other day)

Now granted 18 and 9 is still good numbers but not top 5 numbers.  If those are top 5 numbers then Elton Brand should be considered.  Heck even Dirk should be considered if we are lowering the current bar for top 5 in the league.

Kobe prior to scoring 81 was one of the best players in the league.  There really is no getting around that.  He is a good defender, there is not a defense in the league who can stop him, he is the best clutch player in the game currently, and he has the work habit of some of the great players in the game.  Really, personal bias aside I cannot see how he is not getting the nod.  You are considering Shaq who is posting the lowest numbers of his career in every category.

[Joe Vancil]

The reason Shaq is still on the list is because, when he, as the Lakers number 1 option, went from Los Angeles to Miami, in exchange for the Heat's number 1 option, plus their number 4 option, plus their number 5 option, Miami went from a second-round playoff team to a potential finals contender, while Los Angeles went from a finals team to a lottery team.  That's called IMPACT.

Either you believe Shaq is done, or he's (again) being lazy in the regular season.  I believe the latter.

 

[westkoast]

The reason Shaq is still on the list is because, when he, as the Lakers number 1 option, went from Los Angeles to Miami, in exchange for the Heat's number 1 option, plus their number 4 option, plus their number 5 option, Miami went from a second-round playoff team to a potential finals contender, while Los Angeles went from a finals team to a lottery team.  That's called IMPACT.

Either you believe Shaq is done, or he's (again) being lazy in the regular season.  I believe the latter.

So how long are we going off past accomplishments here?  He is top 5 in the league *this year* because *last year* they got to the 3rd round (because of Wade btw) and the Lakers didnt make the playoffs?!

The Heat are a finals contender as long as Shaq is still dominating.  Right now they look like they are still a second round team unless he gets into better shape and starts dominating again.  Maybe he is pacing for the playoffs, certainly see that before.  Based on whats going on right now though his greatest contribution to this squad is the fact he gets one of the best offensive weapons in the game more than enough space to operate.  Not his rebounding, not his shot blocking, not his ability to takeover a game at will.  

His freethrow shooting is 44%, his FG% is down,  his assists are down, his rebounds are down, his blocks are down, and he currently looks like a second tier center on the defensive end based on seeing him come in after Zo.  Can we also give Wade some credit here.  In his rookie season he helped get the Heat to the second round.  Now he has improved by leaps and bounds every year since yet Shaq is getting more of the props in South Beach?!  A while ago I would have agreed with you but they are currently 11-12 on the road.  How are you a championship caliber team when you are below .500 on the road?

[Joe Vancil]

Duncan gets more of the props than Manu Ginobilli or Tony Parker, yet they've improved every year.  Many of his numbers are down.  Is Duncan no longer the top-level player?

Essentially, that's the argument you're making.

Shaq is what Shaq is.  He dominates the lane, which is generally considered one of the basic principles of winning basketball.  He's big, he's strong, and he's hard to move, and his numbers go up to spectacular levels come playoff time.

When those things become the exception rather than the rule, then he'll drop out of the top 5 - as it was with Olajuwon and Abdul-Jabbar before him.  But not until.
 

[westkoast]

Duncan gets more of the props than Manu Ginobilli or Tony Parker, yet they've improved every year.  Many of his numbers are down.  Is Duncan no longer the top-level player?

Essentially, that's the argument you're making.

Shaq is what Shaq is.  He dominates the lane, which is generally considered one of the basic principles of winning basketball.  He's big, he's strong, and he's hard to move, and his numbers go up to spectacular levels come playoff time.

When those things become the exception rather than the rule, then he'll drop out of the top 5 - as it was with Olajuwon and Abdul-Jabbar before him.  But not until.

Duncan's numbers are down but they are still better than Shaq's...

#4 currently in rebounds

#1 in double doubles

#6 in blocks


Manu and Parker have improved and that is why they have two titles but if you think Parker and Manu could have Duncan sit out for half the 1st and 2nd round yet still manage to get to the WC finals I think you are sadly mistaken.   The Spurs also have a better record, aside from the fact that Manu has been hurt off and on the entire year it seems.  Head to head so far this year the Spurs have the upper hand.

As for his playoff stats, yes you are right, they have *in the past* been off the charts.  That is when he actually plays in the playoffs.  Last year he didn't post those numbers.  From the looks of things this year doesn't look like he will do it this year either.  I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt (as I have before) if it wasn't half way through the season.  

Remember it was Wade's improvement that got them from the second round plateau he got them on before to the third round.  Shaq was not the reason they got so far last year.  

[Reality]

Can someone explain to me how Shaq is making the top 5 list as of today?  I understand him being hurt dented his numbers but the last 2-3 weeks he has been far from dominating.  The other night against the Spurs, a team they could possibly face if they were to make the NBA Finals, he has 10 points and 6 rebounds (Reality brought this up the other day)

Now granted 18 and 9 is still good numbers but not top 5 numbers.  If those are top 5 numbers then Elton Brand should be considered.  Heck even Dirk should be considered if we are lowering the current bar for top 5 in the league.
 

That Wade got the Heat to Round 2 with essentially the same cast as Kobe says what?  Whereupon that cast with Kobe the immediate next year goes sub .500 and out.  Wade made the players around him better. :bash:   Also Joes Impact post is right on.

Shaq actually had 23 pts on 9-14 shooting vs Spurs to go with his wimpy 6 boards and fouling out.

My point was not that Shaq sucked that game and sucks, but rather the previous theads which had pro Shaq posters having him soo much more Dominant then Duncan.  He never was.  Dunkar played him to at least a standstill even in playoffs 2001.  But Shaq certainly was and is a force, albeit to a lesser extent now then 2001.

That Kobe is above .500 (barely) for the 1st time ever without Shaq shows promise for this year.
 

[westkoast]

Can someone explain to me how Shaq is making the top 5 list as of today?  I understand him being hurt dented his numbers but the last 2-3 weeks he has been far from dominating.  The other night against the Spurs, a team they could possibly face if they were to make the NBA Finals, he has 10 points and 6 rebounds (Reality brought this up the other day)

Now granted 18 and 9 is still good numbers but not top 5 numbers.  If those are top 5 numbers then Elton Brand should be considered.  Heck even Dirk should be considered if we are lowering the current bar for top 5 in the league.
 

That Wade got the Heat to Round 2 with essentially the same cast as Kobe says what?  Whereupon that cast with Kobe the immediate next year goes sub .500 and out.  Wade made the players around him better. :bash:   Also Joes Impact post is right on.

Shaq actually had 23 pts on 9-14 shooting vs Spurs to go with his wimpy 6 boards and fouling out.

My point was not that Shaq sucked that game and sucks, but rather the previous theads which had pro Shaq posters having him soo much more Dominant then Duncan.  He never was.  Dunkar played him to at least a standstill even in playoffs 2001.  But Shaq certainly was and is a force, albeit to a lesser extent now then 2001.

That Kobe is above .500 (barely) for the 1st time ever without Shaq shows promise for this year.

LOL...The lineup was not the same (If you think Zo is equal to Chris Mihm please unregister your name).  Nor was some other pieces of information you carefully left out but that is another thread.  If you want to start it go ahead, we need 10 laker threads at once!!!!!

As is the Duncan vs. Shaq all-time thread.  

PPG 18.5
RPG 9.3  
APG 1.3
SPG .45
BPG 1.45
FG% .546
FT% .442
3P% .000
MPG 28.5

Are those top 5 player numbers?  Cuz if they are then Elton Brand should be a top 5 player right now.

PPG 24.9
RPG 10.7  
APG 2.5
SPG .91
BPG 2.68
FG% .519
FT% .762
3P% .000
MPG 39.9


 

[Skandery]

Are those top 5 player numbers? Cuz if they are then Elton Brand should be a top 5 player right now.

I hate to beat a dead a horse, wk, but here I go again.  The most telling stat you posted was 28.5 minutes (Shaq) and 39.9 minutes (Elton).  Carry both numbers to 40 minutes and you'll start to see the humongous difference in accumulation dissipate.  Shaq will still be a horrible FT shooter but a more efficient scorer from the field than Elton.  Why is it that Shaq gets much fewer minutes, well, they've said that at his advanced age coupled with the wear and tear of his 340 pound body they were going to cut his minutes in order to keep him fresh for the playoffs.  Now then; playoffs come around and Miami can't rely on him, Shaq-bashing will be on 24/7, right RB. :up:

But you really want to get at the meat of why Shaq can be in the conversation of Top 5 player while Elton *still* can't be mentioned.  Here ya go:

http://www.82games.com/0506/plusminus.htm

The site I posted happens to have the +/- differential of all the players in the league when they're on the court.  The stats are from December 16th to January 15th.

You'll find that Elton Brand is #397 out of 402 players they've posted in the +/- differential at -86 points.  Shaq, on the other hand, is at a very healthy +55 points.  

Elton Brand is by far the worst player on the Clippers in this stat, the second worst being Sam Cassell at -43, that is 43 points worst than the next worst guy!!  Shaq, on the other hand is 4th best on the Heat behind Wade, Posey, and Walker.    

[westkoast]

Are those top 5 player numbers? Cuz if they are then Elton Brand should be a top 5 player right now.

I hate to beat a dead a horse, wk, but here I go again.  The most telling stat you posted was 28.5 minutes (Shaq) and 39.9 minutes (Elton).  Carry both numbers to 40 minutes and you'll start to see the humongous difference in accumulation dissipate.  Shaq will still be a horrible FT shooter but a more efficient scorer from the field than Elton.  Why is it that Shaq gets much fewer minutes, well, they've said that at his advanced age coupled with the wear and tear of his 340 pound body they were going to cut his minutes in order to keep him fresh for the playoffs.  Now then; playoffs come around and Miami can't rely on him, Shaq-bashing will be on 24/7, right RB. :up:

But you really want to get at the meat of why Shaq can be in the conversation of Top 5 player while Elton *still* can't be mentioned.  Here ya go:

http://www.82games.com/0506/plusminus.htm

The site I posted happens to have the +/- differential of all the players in the league when they're on the court.  The stats are from December 16th to January 15th.

You'll find that Elton Brand is #397 out of 402 players they've posted in the +/- differential at -86 points.  Shaq, on the other hand, is at a very healthy +55 points.  

Elton Brand is by far the worst player on the Clippers in this stat, the second worst being Sam Cassell at -43, that is 43 points worst than the next worst guy!!  Shaq, on the other hand is 4th best on the Heat behind Wade, Posey, and Walker.

Skander, Shaq is playing limited minutes because that is all he can play.  So going off a per-40 minute set of stats is going to be skewed because he is not as effective for another 10-15 minutes. Clearly you can tell by the way he has been moving over the past few weeks that either he is injured, out of shape, unintrested  or a combination of both.  I believe the plan at the begging of the year was to lower his minutes so come playoff time he will have more gas.  Now it looks like they are doing it by force moreso than by design.  Plus he has played in 22 games this season.  Just 4 more games played than games sitting out.

Like I was saying earlier, his greatest contribution to this team is the fact he gets guys like Dwayne Wade more space (which is what is reflected in that +/- link you posted).  The Shaq I knew, the most dominating player ive ever witnesses, biggest contribution was the fact that at anytime he could change the game on both ends of the floor.  Whether it was an alley oop to  seal Portland's finals chances or a block on Rick Smits to seal Indiana's chances....he could impact the game anytime on any end.  Would anyone say that is true now?