Author Topic: Top 5 revisited  (Read 12330 times)

Offline Skandery

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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2006, 01:49:49 PM »
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Would anyone say that is true now?

Can Shaq still impact a game?!? :huh:   The first place I'd look for that answer if I were you would be the Atlanta roster, when on Dec 20, he dropped 28 points in 24 minutes on 13/15.  Or maybe you could poll Sacramento's players after just yesterday when he handed them 27 points in 27 minutes on 11/15.

   
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Offline Reality

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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2006, 02:05:45 PM »
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LOL...The lineup was not the same (If you think Zo is equal to Chris Mihm please unregister your name). [/quote]
 Zo was not on the 2004 heat Playoff team.

yeah Wades lineup sure was a lot different from Kobes 2005 non playoff lineup.

Caron Butler, SF
Lamar Odom, SF
Brian Grant, FC
Dwyane Wade, G
 

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2006, 02:14:52 PM »
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LOL...The lineup was not the same (If you think Zo is equal to Chris Mihm please unregister your name). Zo was not on the 2004 heat Playoff team.

yeah Wades lineup sure was a lot different from Kobes 2005 non playoff lineup.

Caron Butler, SF
Lamar Odom, SF
Brian Grant, FC
Dwyane Wade, G

Did that Miami Heat team switch coaches and offensive schemes mid-season?  Odom also was not dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis nor did the Lakers have a healthy Brian Grant or a defender half as good as Eddie Jones.  Wasn't Caron Butler hurt that entire season just about?!

Skander, I didn't say that he cannot still domiante a game.  I am saying, at any given time, can Shaq dominate the game on either side of the ball?  My answer is no.  Not at any given time can he dominate on either end.  He can do it just not at a flick of a switch like he use to be able to.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 02:19:54 PM by westkoast »
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Offline JoMal

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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2006, 02:32:37 PM »
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Or maybe you could poll Sacramento's players after just yesterday when he handed them 27 points in 27 minutes on 11/15.
<sigh>

Perhaps you might also consider the competition he faced against Sacramento. Their defense, after all, made Jason Williams look like an all star in that game.
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Offline Reality

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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2006, 03:50:03 PM »
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Did that Miami Heat team switch coaches and offensive schemes mid-season?  Odom also was not dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis nor did the Lakers have a healthy Brian Grant or a defender half as good as Eddie Jones.  Wasn't Caron Butler hurt that entire season just about?! [/quote]
 2004-5 Kobe Lakers/Wade Heat 2003-4
Caron Butler Lakers 77 Games at 35 minutes per game.  He missed 5 games.  

Lamar Odom Heat dropping 25-30 consistently?  He must have also dropped 8-14 consitently.  His average was 17 and 7.

Brian Grant sounds like about a wash, same production just more Heat minutes.
Lakers 4 pts 4 board in 16 minutes.
Miami 8 pts 7 boards in 30 minutes

For DWade I won't be using the "switch coaches and offensive schemes mid-season" as an excuse should the Heat falter in the 2006 playoffs.  

 

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2006, 04:12:25 PM »
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Did that Miami Heat team switch coaches and offensive schemes mid-season?  Odom also was not dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis nor did the Lakers have a healthy Brian Grant or a defender half as good as Eddie Jones.  Wasn't Caron Butler hurt that entire season just about?! 2004-5 Kobe Lakers/Wade Heat 2003-4
Caron Butler Lakers 77 Games at 35 minutes per game.  He missed 5 games. 

Lamar Odom Heat dropping 25-30 consistently?  He must have also dropped 8-14 consitently.  His average was 17 and 7.

Brian Grant sounds like about a wash, same production just more Heat minutes.
Lakers 4 pts 4 board in 16 minutes.
Miami 8 pts 7 boards in 30 minutes

For DWade I won't be using the "switch coaches and offensive schemes mid-season" as an excuse should the Heat falter in the 2006 playoffs.
You couldn't if you wanted too....Pat Riley is using the exact same system that Van Gundy was.  In fact he took his playbook :lol:  Switching to the triangle offense mid-season with a bunch of inexpierenced players makes a difference.  Whether you would like to admit that or not.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedu...mia&season=2004

I see alot of games where Odom is hovering or above the 25 point mark there, do you?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 04:16:53 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2006, 04:21:06 PM »
Switching to or from the triangle didn't seem to make much difference for the Lakers last year, from what I saw.  It was bad before, and it was bad afterward.
Joe

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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2006, 04:23:12 PM »
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Switching to or from the triangle didn't seem to make much difference for the Lakers last year, from what I saw.  It was bad before, and it was bad afterward.
Check the stats from the second half of the season.  They dropped like 18 of their last 20 games.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 04:23:56 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Reality

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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2006, 04:26:12 PM »
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You couldn't if you wanted too....Pat Riley is using the exact same system that Van Gundy was.  In fact he took his playbook :lol:  Switching to the triangle offense mid-season with a bunch of inexpierenced players makes a difference.  Whether you would like to admit that or not.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedu...mia&season=2004

I see alot of games where Odom is hovering or above the 25 point mark there, do you? [/quote]
 Before we move on to another, is it correct that DWade did not get an advantage from 'Zo as you had posted?  Since Zo was not on the Heat roster.

I counted 12 games of 25 pts or more for Odom.
I don't do Laker math but that means 68 games he did not.
12 of 80 =  "Odom dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis."
rrrrraaaaaagh.  LakerMath.

Did you see any where he was below 25?

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2006, 04:43:11 PM »
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You couldn't if you wanted too....Pat Riley is using the exact same system that Van Gundy was.  In fact he took his playbook :lol:  Switching to the triangle offense mid-season with a bunch of inexpierenced players makes a difference.  Whether you would like to admit that or not.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedu...mia&season=2004

I see alot of games where Odom is hovering or above the 25 point mark there, do you?
Before we move on to another, is it correct that DWade did not get an advantage from 'Zo as you had posted?  Since Zo was not on the Heat roster.

I counted 12 games of 25 pts or more for Odom.
I don't do Laker math but that means 68 games he did not.
12 of 80 =  "Odom dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis."
rrrrraaaaaagh.  LakerMath.

Did you see any where he was below 25?
And how many of those were 22-23-24 point games?  Quite a number.  He was the leading scorer almost every few games.  

Quote
I see alot of games where Odom is hovering or above the 25 point mark there, do you?

I was incorrect about Zo, that was the year he was MIA for MIA  because he played the year previous to that one.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 04:43:53 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Laker Fan

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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2006, 06:05:28 PM »
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The reason Shaq is still on the list is because, when he, as the Lakers number 1 option, went from Los Angeles to Miami, in exchange for the Heat's number 1 option, plus their number 4 option, plus their number 5 option, Miami went from a second-round playoff team to a potential finals contender, while Los Angeles went from a finals team to a lottery team.  That's called IMPACT.

Either you believe Shaq is done, or he's (again) being lazy in the regular season.  I believe the latter.
So how long are we going off past accomplishments here?  He is top 5 in the league *this year* because *last year* they got to the 3rd round (because of Wade btw) and the Lakers didnt make the playoffs?!

The Heat are a finals contender as long as Shaq is still dominating.  Right now they look like they are still a second round team unless he gets into better shape and starts dominating again.  Maybe he is pacing for the playoffs, certainly see that before.  Based on whats going on right now though his greatest contribution to this squad is the fact he gets one of the best offensive weapons in the game more than enough space to operate.  Not his rebounding, not his shot blocking, not his ability to takeover a game at will.  

His freethrow shooting is 44%, his FG% is down,  his assists are down, his rebounds are down, his blocks are down, and he currently looks like a second tier center on the defensive end based on seeing him come in after Zo.  Can we also give Wade some credit here.  In his rookie season he helped get the Heat to the second round.  Now he has improved by leaps and bounds every year since yet Shaq is getting more of the props in South Beach?!  A while ago I would have agreed with you but they are currently 11-12 on the road.  How are you a championship caliber team when you are below .500 on the road?
Over the last 23 games Miami has played with Shaq in the lineup, they are 6-7 against teams playing .500 or better so far, with Shaq's max minutes 36 against the Pistons in a losing effort but averaging 28.5 mpg and 18.8 ppg, not bad but certainly not all world, not even all NBA. And don't give me this silly nonsensical tripe that "his numbers would go up if he played more" Skander, the point is he CAN'T play more because he no longer has what it takes! If Shaq tried to play more minutes he would simply collapse, and THAT my friends is no ones fault but his fat lazy own. I can certainly think of a few teams (Detroit, San Antonio, Phoenix) that prepare more for Wade than they do for Shaq. You see, Miami has TWO superstars, 1 on the rise, 1 in decline, and a very healthy supporting cast so this is a team that DOES NOT live or die based on Shaq's "impact". Impact? I think not quite so much as you all would like to believe. Top 5 this year? Hardly, Elton Brand earns his spot in that category so far this year and until (not likey) Shaq takes that spot back by force of "impact" other than the weight of his fat lazy body on the hardwood, I stand by my pick. And I will be the first one to admit error should Shaq prove me wrong now or in the playoffs, I am not too worried about having to admit error.

Over the same 23 game stretch the Lakers are 9-4 against teams playing at .500 or better and Kobe is averaging 40 mpg and well over 35 ppg. I have said before and I will say again, I am not thrilled by Kobe's shoot first mentality but the above numbers do speak to at least one thing, that thing you Joe call "impact", the same thing you erroneously apply to this years version of Shaquille O'Neal.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 06:08:09 PM by Laker Fan »
Dan

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2006, 07:54:21 PM »
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Enough *NOT* said.

81 points is incredible.  I'm not doubting that in any way.

But can you honestly say you'd rather have Kobe on your team than Duncan?  Duncan's never had 80.  Duncan's never had 70.  Duncan's never had 60.  I don't think Duncan has ever had 50...or even 40.  And what that tells me is that being top 5 isn't about putting up ungodly scoring numbers.

There are four players who are definitely top 5 in the league:  Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, and LeBron James.  I can make solid arguments for a number of players for that last remaining spot - including Kobe Bryant.  But it's *FAR* from a lock.
With all due respect Joe, Shaq isn't even the best player on his team.  My top 5 in no particular order
Duncan
Garnett
Lebron
Wade
Kobe
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AA Mil

Offline Laker Fan

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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2006, 11:27:19 PM »
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Enough *NOT* said.

81 points is incredible.  I'm not doubting that in any way.

But can you honestly say you'd rather have Kobe on your team than Duncan?  Duncan's never had 80.  Duncan's never had 70.  Duncan's never had 60.  I don't think Duncan has ever had 50...or even 40.  And what that tells me is that being top 5 isn't about putting up ungodly scoring numbers.

There are four players who are definitely top 5 in the league:  Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, and LeBron James.  I can make solid arguments for a number of players for that last remaining spot - including Kobe Bryant.  But it's *FAR* from a lock.
With all due respect Joe, Shaq isn't even the best player on his team.  My top 5 in no particular order
Duncan
Garnett
Lebron
Wade
Kobe
The only ones on your list Ziggy that are open to debate IMO is Wade and at the outside Lebron and my pick to replace one or the other of them is still Elton Brand, but again, you can make a very good argument for any of those 3 to take the final spot in a top 5 ranking, the other 3 are solid top 5, both the Lakers AND the Timberwolves are overachieving primarily solely because of Garnett and Kobe.

Garnett hardly has a stellar team around him and they have struggled mightily against the better teams in the NBA but they are at .500 and you can't exactly credit Wally Szczerbiak or Troy Hudson with that, it is Garnett. In fact, the Wolves are 4-10 over the same 23 game stretch I cited against teams at .500 or better so maybe not even Garnett is a lock for top 5, nah, he is too consistently good at what he does, sort of like Kobe is consistently good at what he does. You see, THAT is objective.

The Kobe argument we have beaten to death but the same applies, overachievement based strictly on Kobe's presence on the team. Why is it that Kobe's detractors give Garnett a pass, (or for that matter Shaq), the way the Wolves are struggling and yet he, like Kobe, must consistently carry them but Kobe is vilified? Don't give me the "he's a ball hog"' mantra Joe or Skander, it is wearing thin and simply doesn't jive with the pure facts, it smacks of nothing but bias, which is fine, be biased all you want, just be up front about it instead of hiding behind your cute little "analyses" of what makes a top 5 player and trying to come across as objective, the facts belie such nonsense.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 11:38:33 PM by Laker Fan »
Dan

Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2006, 10:42:10 AM »
Okay, Skander - do you want to b---- slap him, or shall I?  **grin**
Joe

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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2006, 10:47:53 AM »
I actually have some work I need to do this morning, so I probably won't be on long enough for a meaningful post until the afternoon, so by all means...

 :up:  
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