Top 5 revisited

[Guest_Randy]

Actually, I don't think you can legitimately state that Kobe isn't a top 5 based on what he has done this year.  You MAY state that you don't like his style of play or you think he is too selfish with the basketball but to say that a player who has scored 81 once (and could have actually done it twice) isn't a top 5 player is quite laughable.  There are TONS of critics out there that you can find who DON'T like Kobe's game -- but they would still tell you that he's one of the best players in the game!

[Reality]

Did you see any where he was below 25?

And how many of those were 22-23-24 point games?  Quite a number.  He was the leading scorer almost every few games.  

I was incorrect about Zo, that was the year he was MIA for MIA  because he played the year previous to that one. [/quote]
 About 1 in 4.
Odom was leading Heat scorer 23 of the 81 games he played in.
Could that be "every few games?"  Rrrrraaaagh.

Playoffs?  Odom high scorer 3 of 14.  He surpassed 25 once.  20 once.  
Translation 12 of the 14 he was below 20.

You are trying to use the above stats to show Koubee had such less production for Odom while Wade enjoyed much more.

Odom ""Odom dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis." with Heat.
Reg season
03-04 Heat 17 and 9 boards on 43% shooting.
04-05 Lakers 15 and 10 boards on 47% shooting.

[JoMal]

Actually, I don't think you can legitimately state that Kobe isn't a top 5 based on what he has done this year.  You MAY state that you don't like his style of play or you think he is too selfish with the basketball but to say that a player who has scored 81 once (and could have actually done it twice) isn't a top 5 player is quite laughable.  There are TONS of critics out there that you can find who DON'T like Kobe's game -- but they would still tell you that he's one of the best players in the game!

One of the best players in the game? Undoubtedly. A top five contender? Kobe's stats clearly show he must be considered in that loftly air.

Would I prefer him on my team over, say, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett or even LeBron James? No, not really, which is really an odd thing to say, but I gave it some thought.

I like the concept of TEAM NBA style basketball. That is just my preference. Kobe, for whatever all his amazing scoring stats might show as his place in today's NBA rankings compared to his contemporaries, does not, by himself, lend me to think he would ultimately make my team that much better. He has yet to prove he can lead less gifted atheletes to improve their games, or at least understand their supporting roles better so the team does better.

That may very well have more to do with the quality of those players, but so far, I can see the teammates of those other players mentioned actually accepting their roles in support of the superstar, and their games showing that improvement, more then what I have seen with Kobe, and that attitude is a good way to judge his ultimate place with the best players in the NBA today.

[Reality]

Would I prefer him on my team over, say, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett or even LeBron James? No, not really, which is really an odd thing to say, but I gave it some thought.

I like the concept of TEAM NBA style basketball. That is just my preference. Kobe, for whatever all his amazing scoring stats might show as his place in today's NBA rankings compared to his contemporaries, does not, by himself, lend me to think he would ultimately make my team that much better.

1.  Why is that an odd thing to say?

2.  Can you really be a top 5 player and not make your team that much better?

Boils down to definition of "top player."

Kobes 45 pt average tear has the Lakers on track to make the Lakers playoff bound.  They could also revert and go back to sub .500  I'll give it till seasons end.
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As to Shaq "living off past" :rofl:  I'm sure Joe and Skander will handle it.
60 seconds away from Finals 2005 while Kobe was home looking in mirrors.
Also Garnett -never has missed playoffs.

What has Kobme done without Shaq?  Done.

But I'll sure give him this rest of this year to see what happends in May and June.

[Guest_Randy]

I thought this article was rather interesting from espn.com.  Five analysts gave their input about Kobe, his scoring and his team.

How will Kobe's recent performances affect his "selfish" image?

Legler: I think most NBA fans appreciate Kobe's greatness, yet they also understand that he doesn't augment his teammates' games. His ability to score is something to marvel, but will always have a hint of selfishness when the majority of the time his fellow Lakers are mere spectators to his individual talent.

Broussard: Kobe's recent play will help his public image immeasurably. Fans remember victories and stupendous performances above all else. If he continues to play well and doesn't have any more missteps socially, he'll remake himself almost completely.

Bucher: I've never thought of him as selfish, so it's hard for me to know how what I considered a flawed view might change. I saw someone who was emotionally conflicted and immature at times. Someone who was supremely confident in himself but not always in his teammates. That's not selfish, by my definition or Webster's. A selfish player is someone who pursues his own glory at the expense of everything else, including winning. I've never known Kobe to do that. Ever.

Shouler: No, I don't think these performances will change that image. But just as the Warriors' second-best scoring option in 1962 was an aging Paul Arizin, who is Bryant's second best option? We'd rather have him shoot than his mates, even if the team field goal percentage is roughly equal to his.

Anthony: Kobe in my mind is not selfish. Last year was a valuable lesson learned for him, teaching him that no matter how great he is (and he is certainly that) championships are won by teams, not individuals.

How is Kobe's domination of the Lakers affecting the team?

Broussard: As long as Kobe shoots a high percentage and the Lakers keep winning, it's all good. Granted, it's probably not fun to watch a teammate launch 35 shots a night, but if you're winning, what can you say? If they don't win, that's when the problems begin.

Bucher: He's carrying the team to the playoffs, where they have no business being based on the talent they have. He's setting a standard of excellence and effort that if Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown get anywhere close to matching, they will be immensely better players for it.

Hollinger: It's marginalized Lamar Odom to the point of uselessness, but otherwise the impact hasn't been great -- the other Lakers are guys who have played off the ball their whole careers.

Anthony: It's only helping, because the key is winning -- winning breeds confidence and all those young players need confidence.

I think there are some GREAT points on BOTH sides of the Kobe as a selfish player issue.  I think that Kobe has hurt the play of Lamar Odom -- however, you CAN'T have a player who just flat disappears on nights.  Odom is VERY inconsistent -- one night he shoots 1 of 7 and scores in single digits and the next night it's 20.  In fact, Odom has NEVER averaged more than 17 points per game -- he has never shown that he is a consistent #2 option.  Odom IS doing some great things for the Lakers -- his fg% is solid (47% (just above his career ave. I believe), His ppg, are right at average -- INCLUDING during Kobe's 45.5 January tear, Odom is averaging almost 10 rpg (a career best) and almost a career best in assists per game (almost 6 apg).  The bad thing is that he is shooting the 3 at 30% and ft's at 66%.  Odom IS a vital part of the Lakers when it comes to operating the offense and rebounding the basketball -- however, he fails to be aggressive and consistent enough to be a legit #2 scoring option.

However, as a side note, check out Kobe's averages during the month of January:
  41 minutes per game
  45.5 points per game
  48.7 % field goal percentage
  40% 3 point percentage
  90% free throw percentage
  5.9 rebounds per game
  3.9 assists per game

And the most important stat:
  The Lakers are 7-3 with Kobe in the line-up in January.  0-2 without him!

[westkoast]

And how many of those were 22-23-24 point games?  Quite a number.  He was the leading scorer almost every few games. 

I was incorrect about Zo, that was the year he was MIA for MIA  because he played the year previous to that one.
About 1 in 4.
Odom was leading Heat scorer 23 of the 81 games he played in.
Could that be "every few games?"  Rrrrraaaagh.

Playoffs?  Odom high scorer 3 of 14.  He surpassed 25 once.  20 once. 
Translation 12 of the 14 he was below 20.

You are trying to use the above stats to show Koubee had such less production for Odom while Wade enjoyed much more.

Odom ""Odom dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis." with Heat.
Reg season
03-04 Heat 17 and 9 boards on 43% shooting.
04-05 Lakers 15 and 10 boards on 47% shooting.

No what I am doing is pointing out the differences between Wade's squad that went to the second round and the Kobe squad last year that did not make the playoffs.  I have given you various reasons on how the teams varied but as usual its like talking to the wall.  I guess one out of every 4 games is not consistant ehh?   I clearly stated 'hovered around on above 25'

Whether he was the high scorer 1 out of every 4 games  or what he had in the playoffs still shows that his offensive production was up higher than it is in LA the past 2 years.  Makes a difference.  As does switching from a regular NBA offense to the triangle offense after the allstar break with a coach who is not an expert in the offense, losing a head coach  getting a new assistant coach to takeover, having your star player out for 15 games, having a PG who was so horrible on the defensive end drible penetration was losing games for the team,  you know...things like that.  There was improvement on this team in the off season in those areas that I mentioned and the team is playing better imagine that.

Reality, Shaq helping an already stacked team in the EC where you could get in with a .500 record doesn't count for as much as you would like it.  Shaq didn't get his team to the 3rd round and couldn't get them to the finals.  So right now the only thing Shaq has done without Kobe is sit on a team that has a player who has enough drive to pick up the slack for Shaq when his body breaks down.

I love how Wade is constantly overlooked when talking about the two team comparisons.  What if Kobe went to a team with a big man who is as talented as Wade is?  Shaq would surely be dominating in LA wouldnt he?

[Joe Vancil]

Garnett has never missed the playoffs - perhaps - but last year, his "not missing them" meant watching them on TV like the rest of us.

 

[Reality]

Garnett has never missed the playoffs - perhaps - but last year, his "not missing them" meant watching them on TV like the rest of us.

oh zing you got me.  

What is he, 8 of 9 with those powerhouse TWolves lineups.

[Guest_Randy]

Would I prefer him on my team over, say, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett or even LeBron James? No, not really, which is really an odd thing to say, but I gave it some thought.

I like the concept of TEAM NBA style basketball. That is just my preference. Kobe, for whatever all his amazing scoring stats might show as his place in today's NBA rankings compared to his contemporaries, does not, by himself, lend me to think he would ultimately make my team that much better.

1.  Why is that an odd thing to say?

2.  Can you really be a top 5 player and not make your team that much better?

Boils down to definition of "top player."

Kobes 45 pt average tear has the Lakers on track to make the Lakers playoff bound.  They could also revert and go back to sub .500  I'll give it till seasons end.
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As to Shaq "living off past" :rofl:  I'm sure Joe and Skander will handle it.
60 seconds away from Finals 2005 while Kobe was home looking in mirrors.
Also Garnett -never has missed playoffs.

What has Kobme done without Shaq?  Done.

But I'll sure give him this rest of this year to see what happends in May and June.

Umm, you know JUST how LUDICRIOUS it is to say that Kobe DOESN'T make the Lakers a better team?  

The Lakers ARE above .500 ball -- and you DEFINATELY can't say that Kobe has half the talent surrounding him that Shaq has.  Imagine what the Lakers could do with Mourning starting in the post -- think that would make a difference rather than Mihm?  

Also, anyone want to debate that Kobe has helped Smush Parker's game?  The kid is averaging 11 points per game and shooting 45% while doing it.  He has had a couple seasons to date and has been released from Phoenix, Detroit, etc.  

Which of the other Lakers players, outside of Odom and Smush, would teams look at (and teams weren't giving Smush much consideration before this year)?


You CAN questions whether Kobe can make his teammates better -- but the fact is that there is ZERO way the Lakers can win more than 10 games if you took Kobe off this squad.  The fact that the Lakers are currently 7 and 3 (beating Clips, Indy, Cleveland, Philly, Miami, GS and Toronto -- while losing to Port, Phoenix and SacTown (in OT)) certainly DOES say something about Kobe making the Lakers a better team.  

[Guest_Randy]

Garnett has never missed the playoffs - perhaps - but last year, his "not missing them" meant watching them on TV like the rest of us.

oh zing you got me.  

What is he, 8 of 9 with those powerhouse TWolves lineups.

Actually, many thought the TWolves had a legit shot at challenging for an NBA title last year -- so I don't know what lame line-up you think the TWolves have.  I'd DEFINATELY say that the TWolves have more talent than the Lakers overall but they aren't playing better than .500 ball.

[westkoast]

Garnett has never missed the playoffs - perhaps - but last year, his "not missing them" meant watching them on TV like the rest of us.

oh zing you got me.  

What is he, 8 of 9 with those powerhouse TWolves lineups.

You two can continue your little pow wow but I don't think any Laker fan has said Kobe is the better player between him and KG.  Don't let me rain in on your exchange though!!

And Joe, your bias towards Kobe is seriously clouding your judgement in this thread.

[westkoast]

btw Reality...

Over the last few years the Wolves have had such useless players as Terell Brandon, Chauncey Billups, WallyWorld, Latrell Spreewell, Sam Cassel, Tom Gugliotta , and Stephon Marbury.

:rolleyes:

Again, I will stress to you and Joe, there has not been a single time any Laker fan on this board said Kobe is better than Kevin Garnet.

[Reality]

No what I am doing is pointing out the differences between Wade's squad that went to the second round and the Kobe squad last year that did not make the playoffs.  I have given you various reasons on how the teams varied but as usual its like talking to the wall.  I guess one out of every 4 games is not consistant ehh?   I clearly stated 'hovered around on above 25'Reality, Shaq helping an already stacked team in the EC where you could get in with a .500 record doesn't count for as much as you would like it.  Shaq didn't get his team to the 3rd round and couldn't get them to the finals.  So right now the only thing Shaq has done without Kobe is sit on a team that has a player who has enough drive to pick up the slack for Shaq when his body breaks down. [/quote]
 In your attmepts to prove Koubee had a lesser Odom to work with then Wade did, you initially claimed 'Zo was playing center for the Heat.  You have since retracted.  Thank you for the Zo retraction.

Next, your exact quote was "Odom also was not dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis"  Which you are now backpedaling to "I clearly stated 'hovered around on above 25'.  Perhaps you go repeat these two to a wall.  See if the response differs.

You then lower it to "And how many of those were 22-23-24 point games? Quite a number. He was the leading scorer almost every few games."   Which he was, about 1 in 4.  Whether or not that is "every few games" or not, its okay with me.  

Reality is, Odom probably has about the same number of consistent 17-24 pt games with the Lakers as he had with the Heat.  Of course I can't verify that because espn.com only lists the high scorer, not the 2nd high scorer.  With Wade, Odom was often the high scorer and Wade the high assist man.  With the Lakers Kobe has been the high scorer almost the entire past two seasons.

Playoffs?  Wade was the high assist man in 12 of 14 Heat-Odom games.  Kobe sits at zero.  

Your claims that Wade had such a better Odom then Kobe has are baseless.  
Randolph, your post suggests Odom is as good or better as a Laker.

Shaq at 60% certainly did help the Heat vs Pistons.  To all objective viewers.

[Reality]

Umm, you know JUST how LUDICRIOUS it is to say that Kobe DOESN'T make the Lakers a better team?  

You CAN questions whether Kobe can make his teammates better -- but the fact is that there is ZERO way the Lakers can win more than 10 games if you took Kobe off this squad.  The fact that the Lakers are currently 7 and 3 (beating Clips, Indy, Cleveland, Philly, Miami, GS and Toronto -- while losing to Port, Phoenix and SacTown (in OT)) certainly DOES say something about Kobe making the Lakers a better team. [/quote]
 Are you asking me or Jomal?

Kobes shooting % goes up, Lakers win more.
On the 7-3 streak his % is wayy better then previous.

Can he keep it up?  Maybe.  The top 5 players all do. B)

What do you think of msc[/size]s posts on Kobe and # of shots?

[westkoast]

Did that Miami Heat team switch coaches and offensive schemes mid-season?  Odom also was not dropping 25-30 point games on a consistant basis nor did the Lakers have a healthy Brian Grant or a defender half as good as Eddie Jones.  Wasn't Caron Butler hurt that entire season just about?! 2004-5 Kobe Lakers/Wade Heat 2003-4
Caron Butler Lakers 77 Games at 35 minutes per game.  He missed 5 games. 

Lamar Odom Heat dropping 25-30 consistently?  He must have also dropped 8-14 consitently.  His average was 17 and 7.

Brian Grant sounds like about a wash, same production just more Heat minutes.
Lakers 4 pts 4 board in 16 minutes.
Miami 8 pts 7 boards in 30 minutes

For DWade I won't be using the "switch coaches and offensive schemes mid-season" as an excuse should the Heat falter in the 2006 playoffs.

You couldn't if you wanted too....Pat Riley is using the exact same system that Van Gundy was.  In fact he took his playbook :lol:  Switching to the triangle offense mid-season with a bunch of inexpierenced players makes a difference.  Whether you would like to admit that or not.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedu...mia&season=2004

I see alot of games where Odom is hovering or above the 25 point mark there, do you?

Reading is fundamental Reality.

And Odom does not have the same amount of 17-24 point games this season.  So you are 'probably' better off checking stats before you 'probably' make a statement :lol:

This is a stone cold fact that Kobe does not have the offensive minded Odom that Wade had.  Its far from baseless, you can check stats or watch the games yourself.  All point to the fact that Kobe does not have the same Odom.  Everyone will tell you that because its in broad day light for everyone to see.

Shaq did not get them to the finals which is what he was brought in to do.  So while he did help, they did not win so that point is moot.