Aaron McKie signs with the Lakers . . .

[Guest_Randy]

Joe,

I can't disagree with you more -- you HAVE to rebuild at some point.  The Lakers rebuilt with youth -- Magic Johnson to join Kareem.  They continued to add youth (AC Green, Bryon Scott).

Even the Lakers that were DISMAL in the 90's used youth (and the draft) to grow -- what they did was start with youth (Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Vlade, and then they begin to trade for pieces in order to build a championship team -- okay, they did add a pretty decent piece in Shaq but they STILL used youth to trade for pieces to the puzzle).  The Lakers simply don't have much currently to trade.  

How do you rebuild?  Because it is GOING to happen -- you either trade away a superstar at the end of his career (when he is still worth something) or you wait until the superstar retires and then begin rebuilding.  

I would have been ALL for keeping Shaq *IF* Shaq was going to be in playing shape -- but ever since the Lakers great 15-1 championship run (one of the greatest in basketball), Shaq has let himself go!  It was pretty obvious (okay, it's apparently not obvious to you) that Shaq WASN'T going to get into even DECENT shape!  Why do we want a Shaq who isn't going to help us win anything.  Not to mention that WHILE Shaq was in horrible shape -- he starts whining about a contract extension and he wants to make $30 mill a year!!!  Hey, he's worth that WHEN he's in shape -- he wasn't worth that at the shape when the Lakers traded him.  And sorry, all this crap about him bringing in more superstars to play for nothing -- umm, that WASN'T going to happen.  I STILL can't imagine what GP and Malone thought -- I'm sacrificing for the team to win a title -- and then hear Shaq make comments about "I want my money -- and I can bring in even more players to play for free."  Sorry, every player in the NBA heard that -- I can't imagine that helps them line up to play for the Lakers.

So Kobe got his max -- and Shaq starts making $30 mill a year -- congrats -- we are almost at the salary cap with just those two players.  And we DON'T have the supporting cast to surround Kobe and Shaq with -- the players that helped us win a title are gone (Fish was never the same after his second foot surgery, Fox was old -- and the Lakers cast is made up of players like Medvendenko, Cook, Pargo, George, etc.).  

You add it all up and it just doesn't make sense to keep Shaq around.  Shaq and Kobe don't like each other -- and with Kobe you have at least a possible future -- with Shaq and Kobe, you are just trying to maintain toward the top of the league (you know another title shot isn't going to happen).  Why not get what you can, start making trades and work yourself into a position (with some youth) to make trades and build your team through free agency, draft, and build around your superstar (with the hopes of clearing enough cap space to gain another superstar).  

If Shaq had been in shape, I would have been all for keeping him (even though he and Kobe couldn't get along) but with the shape that Shaq was in? No way!!!  He wasn't going to win another title at that weight and in that shape.  And I'm not content with a team that is going to just make it to the playoffs -- I want a team that is going to be able to contend -- and Shaq at that weight, it just wasn't going to happen.

[Guest_Randy]

JoMal,

I'm sure that tradition means nothing for a Kings fan but to say that it means nothing to a Laker fan?  That's nuts!!!  Go ask a Boston fan how they felt after management begin driving their team into the ground with bad signings, trades, coaches, etc.  They were SOOO unhappy -- why?  Because they didn't mind rebuilding -- they expected that but they wanted a return to the top of the league and what they got was mediocrity.  

Ever listen to some players talk about where it is they dream of playing?  Why is it that the Lakers get mentioned so frequently?  That has nothing to do with tradition?

Today's NBA has changed a great deal -- salary cap, luxury tax, incredibly selfish players, etc. but none of this changes the fact that the Lakers have built a strong tradition -- it's one to be proud of.  Will that continue?  Obviously, I hope that it does but there are no guarantees -- history doesn't guarantee the present nor the future but that tradition is one to be proud of and it increases the pressure on the organization to rebuild a championship squad.  Personally, I doubt that any team in the NBA has the pressure or expectations year in and year out -- decade in and decade out as the Los Angeles Lakers -- perhaps some of that comes from their tradition -- perhaps some of it comes from media -- perhaps some of it comes from hollywood and the prices they pay -- but there is a great deal of pressure and expectation to be at the top once again.  

I think it's funny though that you expect them to do it overnight!

[JoMal]

So Kobe got his max -- and Shaq starts making $30 mill a year -- congrats -- we are almost at the salary cap with just those two players.  And we DON'T have the supporting cast to surround Kobe and Shaq with -- the players that helped us win a title are gone (Fish was never the same after his second foot surgery, Fox was old -- and the Lakers cast is made up of players like Medvendenko, Cook, Pargo, George, etc.).  

 

Ummmm, excuse me there, Randy, but there are a ton of role players available scattered around the NBA who are better then Medvendenko, Cook, Pargo, or George, who would cost about the same percentage of the team salary as Fisher and Fox and produce equally or even better then those two did for the Lakers.

[JoMal]

I think it's funny though that you expect them to do it overnight!

I expect the Lakers to do it overnight? News to me. I expect them to fail to do it at all, or at the very least, have similar success at it as any other mediocre NBA team.

I'm sure that tradition means nothing for a Kings fan but to say that it means nothing to a Laker fan?  That's nuts!!!

Actually, what I was saying was that tradition means way too much to Laker fans. If you somehow misinterpreted what I was saying as the opposite......why does that not surprise me. What was it you said about reading comprehension? Go back and reread that part Randy.

Ever listen to some players talk about where it is they dream of playing?  Why is it that the Lakers get mentioned so frequently?  That has nothing to do with tradition?

What is interesting is your contradiction. If tradition only means something to Laker fans, and not potential free agents chosing which team they want to play for, does that imply that your tradition does not inspire players to come to Los Angeles anyway, so who, exactly is benefitting from your history?

And besides. you don't hear that from players too often these days, which should concern you. It once was true, but as you stated, "...today's NBA has changed a great deal -- salary cap, luxury tax, incredibly selfish players, etc.", but where you are really mistaken is where you continue by saying, "... personally, I doubt that any team in the NBA has the pressure or expectations year in and year out -- decade in and decade out as the Los Angeles Lakers -- perhaps some of that comes from their tradition". That is simply a ridiculous and arrogant comment. No other team in the NBA has the pressure or expectations year in and year out as the Lakers do? Come on!!!

For crying out loud, Randy, that is just pathetic and narrowminded. Are you channelling Reality now?  

[Guest]

I expect the Lakers to do it overnight? News to me. I expect them to fail to do it at all, or at the very least, have similar success at it as any other mediocre NBA team.

Funny, you think it's arrogant when I make a statement and you don't see the arrogance of this statement?  EVERY team in the NBA is destined to rebuild -- face it!  Your team has already gone through some of that -- it will continue -- perhaps until the Kings fall to their previous place in the basement of the NBA.

Actually, what I was saying was that tradition means way too much to Laker fans. If you somehow misinterpreted what I was saying as the opposite......why does that not surprise me. What was it you said about reading comprehension? Go back and reread that part Randy.

That's funny -- your talking about reading comprehension.  You fail that course from the very beginning of this thread!

And besides. you don't hear that from players too often these days, which should concern you. It once was true, but as you stated, "...today's NBA has changed a great deal -- salary cap, luxury tax, incredibly selfish players, etc.", but where you are really mistaken is where you continue by saying, "... personally, I doubt that any team in the NBA has the pressure or expectations year in and year out -- decade in and decade out as the Los Angeles Lakers -- perhaps some of that comes from their tradition". That is simply a ridiculous and arrogant comment. No other team in the NBA has the pressure or expectations year in and year out as the Lakers do? Come on!!!

You don't believe that teams that HAVE been more successful in the past -- that it creates more pressure to be successful in the future?  Ask ANY top college program in the NCAA today -- ask any coach that has followed in the steps of Coach Wooden at UCLA.  Obviously, you've been in a small city without an established winning program at any level if you don't believe that winning creates pressure and expectation to continue that tradition.  

I live in a fairly small town but there is a LONG standing tradition of excellence in football -- that puts a GREAT deal of expectation and pressure on the coaching staff here.  I'm sure it's difficult -- but actually stop and try to engage your brain here.  This concept isn't that difficult to grasp.

[Guest_Randy]

So Kobe got his max -- and Shaq starts making $30 mill a year -- congrats -- we are almost at the salary cap with just those two players.  And we DON'T have the supporting cast to surround Kobe and Shaq with -- the players that helped us win a title are gone (Fish was never the same after his second foot surgery, Fox was old -- and the Lakers cast is made up of players like Medvendenko, Cook, Pargo, George, etc.). 

 

Ummmm, excuse me there, Randy, but there are a ton of role players available scattered around the NBA who are better then Medvendenko, Cook, Pargo, or George, who would cost about the same percentage of the team salary as Fisher and Fox and produce equally or even better then those two did for the Lakers.

Okay, JoMal, let's stop and think about this.

The Lakers have these players UNDER contract -- with Shaq and Kobe both taking almost ALL of the salary cap, just how do you expect the Lakers to add these other players that you are referring to?

There is no cap space and there are no trading options.  It's that simple -- the Lakers weren't going to be able to upgrade their supporting cast.

[Reality]

For crying out loud, Randy, that is just pathetic and narrowminded. Are you channelling Reality now?

Yawn.
No.  I would have told him to abandon this thread a long time ago.
But then i only pick winners.

Lets see we've some *MATH* to which I can only respond there are some really good sources of fiber out there.

Jomal you had some good ones till you allowed yourself to attempt a reasoning conversation with Randy on the Lakers.

RT had the best restart.

Skandery had a good zinger but msc zinged back well.

Another pathertic attempt to discredit the Pistons earned 2004 title.

On we go....Aaron Mckie signs with the Lakers.

 

[JoMal]

 

Funny, you think it's arrogant when I make a statement and you don't see the arrogance of this statement?  EVERY team in the NBA is destined to rebuild -- face it!  Your team has already gone through some of that -- it will continue -- perhaps until the Kings fall to their previous place in the basement of the NBA.

That's funny -- your talking about reading comprehension.  You fail that course from the very beginning of this thread!

ooooh, that one hurt, I have to tell you. My reading comprehension is wanting and I arrogantly responded to a level of arrogance that my poor, pathetic Kings colored psyche could only dream to attain???

You mention it being funny twice. Is that, like, an insane cackle you've acquired, perhaps?

But let me compliment you on being so clever as to pick up my point that EVERY team in the NBA is destined to rebuild, making those choices that can make or break a team for the next ten years. The person you have who reads these threads to you and cuts out all those words of two or more syllables has made a laudable attempt to free your mind of any encumbrances, like original thought, that would naturally interfere with any intelligent dialogue. Trying to talk reasonably with you is like trying to drag an anchor behind a moving speed boat.

I live in a fairly small town but there is a LONG standing tradition of excellence in football -- that puts a GREAT deal of expectation and pressure on the coaching staff here.  I'm sure it's difficult -- but actually stop and try to engage your brain here.  This concept isn't that difficult to grasp.

Now here is a concept that fully expresses my point - comparing how an NBA team must rebuild itself under the restrictions of the current league policies to a local football team's recruiting program. Ever hear of UC-Davis?? Believe me, you do not own the rights to great expectations and pressure on coaching staffs in small town programs. NOTHING you know about comes close to what that program has done for so long.

And I bet you have no idea of it either, because it involves thinking outside the brain.  

[JoMal]

Okay, JoMal, let's stop and think about this.

The Lakers have these players UNDER contract -- with Shaq and Kobe both taking almost ALL of the salary cap, just how do you expect the Lakers to add these other players that you are referring to?

There is no cap space and there are no trading options.  It's that simple -- the Lakers weren't going to be able to upgrade their supporting cast.

The same way they added Fisher and Fox in the first place, how do you think?

And there are always ways to free up cap space and work out trades. You see, that is how the Lakers acquired Payton, Malone, Harper and other role players during the championship years.

Oh, and so far, I would have to say the Lakers have failed to upgrade Kobe's support cast even WITH some freed up trading bait and cap space.

[Guest_Randy]

Now here is a concept that fully expresses my point - comparing how an NBA team must rebuild itself under the restrictions of the current league policies to a local football team's recruiting program. Ever hear of UC-Davis?? Believe me, you do not own the rights to great expectations and pressure on coaching staffs in small town programs. NOTHING you know about comes close to what that program has done for so long.

Umm, yet another fine display for your need for an adequate reading comprehension class -- if you would have actually read what I said, you would have noticed that I was not comparing how a NBA team must rebuild -- simply comparing the pressures and expectations for a program with a history of excellence (not that a Kings fan would know anything about that anyway).  However, I shouldn't be astonished by your lack of reading comprehension since SacTown has a long history of excellence in education -- ebonics, for instance!  But I would recommend an ebonics course for you -- at least it would be a start!

The same way they added Fisher and Fox in the first place, how do you think?

And there are always ways to free up cap space and work out trades. You see, that is how the Lakers acquired Payton, Malone, Harper and other role players during the championship years.

Oh, and so far, I would have to say the Lakers have failed to upgrade Kobe's support cast even WITH some freed up trading bait and cap space.

Hmm, must have picked up some of that flopping from Vlade, huh?  Let's stay on topic, shall we!  We weren't talking about LA's ability to sign FA and trade right now -- we were talking about LA's ability to sign FA and trade with Shaq and Kobe both making a max contract and eating up about $55 million of the Lakers cap space.  

The Lakers CAN now make some trades but they aren't going to make any trades that include longterm deals unless it's a legit superstar/star in this league.  The plan is to see which of the young players we want to keep when the Lakers use their cap space to go after some of the top players on the market in 2 years.

Of course, you weren't really interested in the facts -- I'm sure you were just trying to blow enough wind to turn those 100 foot wind turbines but at least some good comes from all the bluster.
 

[JoMal]

Umm, yet another fine display for your need for an adequate reading comprehension class -- if you would have actually read what I said, you would have noticed that I was not comparing how a NBA team must rebuild -- simply comparing the pressures and expectations for a program with a history of excellence (not that a Kings fan would know anything about that anyway).  However, I shouldn't be astonished by your lack of reading comprehension since SacTown has a long history of excellence in education -- ebonics, for instance!  But I would recommend an ebonics course for you -- at least it would be a start!


 

Oh, so sorry Randy. I did completely misinterpret your meaning there. I don't mean to imply you were comparing the recruiting practices of a football program to producing a competitive NBA team, what I meant to imply was that you have absolutely no idea what kinds of pressure one NBA organization has over others simply because of past success. A blind man would know that every front office in the League faces the same pressure regardless of its past history, but Laker arrogance, I admit, certainly would lead the developmentally challenged of the LaLa area to think theirs was the only 'pressure' that counts, for some reason.

Reading comprehension, I can see, is not your problem. Comprehension period is just beyond you. Get out of the LA Smog belt once in a while and get the shock of your life. Something other then the challenge of breathing becomes an option. Do they HAVE accredited colleges in Los Angeles? Must be hard to recruit local students though, since they simply try entering the buildings by ramming their heads into the brick walls. BTW, which one did you attend?  

Hmm, must have picked up some of that flopping from Vlade, huh?  Let's stay on topic, shall we!  We weren't talking about LA's ability to sign FA and trade right now -- we were talking about LA's ability to sign FA and trade with Shaq and Kobe both making a max contract and eating up about $55 million of the Lakers cap space.

Hmmmm. $30 million for Shaq and $15 million for Kobe = $55 million according to Randy. I understand much better now your confusion regarding simple comprehension. You must have juuust gotten a D- in that community college ebonics statistics course after the third time you took it.  

The Lakers CAN now make some trades but they aren't going to make any trades that include longterm deals unless it's a legit superstar/star in this league.  The plan is to see which of the young players we want to keep when the Lakers use their cap space to go after some of the top players on the market in 2 years.

Of course, you weren't really interested in the facts -- I'm sure you were just trying to blow enough wind to turn those 100 foot wind turbines but at least some good comes from all the bluster.

The PLAN is to see which of the young players we (I am making a huge jump in speculation here and assume that by "WE" you actually mean the Lakers) want to keep when the Lakers use their cap space to go after some of the top players on the market in 2 years?? Which you then claim to be THE FACTS that I am not interested in.

There is no way in your wildest "Reality" based universe I can come close to a 100 foot wind turbine blowhard, self-righteous, conceited, haughty, attitude comment like that. Did you also PLAN to fire, then re-hire Phil Jackson?? Did you also PLAN to trade Shaq for essentially another hole in the ozone layer hunkering over downtown Los Angeles?

Okay, I admit I am lost. Are those THE FACTS that I am not interested in, or would that be you? This PLAN you seem to be so privy to.....was it the intention of "your" Laker organization to appear completely incompetent so the rest of the League will unsuspectingly let some unbeknownst budding superstar get taken away by you (making the same huge jump in speculation here that by 'you' I actually mean the Lakers)??

Tell me, if your PLAN fails and all your young players turn out to be Kwame Brown's and the only free agent who comes out and tells the world that the Laker tradition and history were the swaying factors in his signing a deal with LA is Vin Baker, which one of you (meaning the Laker braintrust) will be taking credit for the PLAN then?

[westkoast]

OH...hold on...are you saying that if Shaq had STAYED, KOBE WOULD HAVE LEFT? Are you admitting what I claimed earlier - that Kobe couldn't play with Shaq any longer?

It wasnt a secret here in LA that Shaq didnt want to play with Kobe....so if Shaq had the choice more likely than not he would have pushed Kobe out of the picture.  He would have had the chance because that was a contract year for Kobe.  The person in charge in the Bryant household, his wife, did not want to leave the area so his choice was going to be LA regardless.   So Im not saying Kobe would have left.  Im saying that he would have been pushed out (and not for the same reasons Shaq was pushed out before you even bring it up)  This is the same Shaq who pouted on the bench when Kobe scored 580 points in 17 games and then came back and gave little effort to show everyone that Kobe needed him.  Shaq didnt like Kobe just as much as Kobe didnt like him.  He didnt like him from day 1.

Im almost tired of repeating this to people who are experts on the Lakers last season but do not get but a handfull of games...

Did Wade have a coaching change?  Or did they completely change the offense on the whole team mid-season?  Did Wade go out for 18 games?  Also, why dont you go and check the records of the EC teams that year.   Miami got in by being 2 games over .500.  You had to almost have a 50-win season to make the playoffs in the WC last year.

I find it funny that you are talking ish JoMaL...your Kings arent in any better shape.  At all.

[msc]

Thanks fellas, this has been entertaining reading to this guy procrastinating at the office on a Friday afternoon.  I'm not sure who's wasted more of their time ... Randy and JoMal for chasing their tails over 6 pages of posts ... or me for actually reading through all of them!  I love it.  Is it Nov 1 yet?  Go Kwame Brown!!  That's it Chris Mihm, box out, baby!  Juuuuuuuu - maine Jooooooonesss ... swish!  (man, I love that rainbow arc he puts on his shot).

I love this game ... pass me the Laker Kool-Aid  :drunk:

Look, we (and when I say “we” I mean the Lakers, that's right I said it, I bleed purple & gold and am proud of it!) WE are going to suck for several years to come.  We all hope we can rebuild starting in 2007 when some cap relief occurs, but with Jerry West in Memphis, I'm certainly not as confident as I would be if he were still here.  And make no mistake about it, Mitch Kupchak is a great guy and probably a decent GM.  Problem is ... he doesn't make ANY decisions right now.  It's all Dr. Buss's final say.  So, I'm not one of the Laker family that dis Mitch.  

All that being said, I think Buss's strategy is a sound one.  That being, swing for the fences without committing any dollars long term.  All of the off-season moves (sans McKie) have had HUGE risk-to-reward ratios without costing anything.  Drafting Andrew Bynum ... he most likely will be a bust, but you can't teach 7' 1", 300lbs.  If, and it's a big IF, this kid can learn the NBA game and get in to NBA shape, he could be a force to be reckoned with.  If he's a bust, we're no worse off then we already were.  Same goes for Kwame.  Everyone who has paid any attention to this uber-under-achiever knows the kid was blessed with God given physical attributes, but has the IQ of a dishrag and the maturity of an Ashlee Simpson fan lining up outside of MTV's TRL studio on a Monday afternoon.  If, another huge IF, this rock-head can re-focus his priorities and finally grow up and be a man … he could be the man.  He certainly has the physical gifts.  I hated to see Caron go in this trade, but you’re not going to win anything with 11 small forwards on your roster.  You need a low post presence in the NBA to have any kind of success.  

So let’s say the most likely scenario occurs and both of these big boys remain big baby’s and don’t pan out.  Well, now it’s 2007 and you’ve got some flexibility to make some moves and acquire some free agents.  Let’s say another very likely scenario happens, maybe one of these kids come in to their own.  You keep them and dump the other.  And maybe a few of the other younger guys start to develop.  And maybe the one and only thing Phil accomplishes in the first 2-years of his stint is that he is able to get Lamar Odom to truly fit in to the triangle offense.  Now it’s 2007, you’ve got Kobe, a productive Lamar, a productive post player and a some decent supporting guys.  At this point you can go after a big name free agent.  I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s certainly attainable and hardly a pipe dream.  

Bring on the kicking us while we’re down, I’m up for it.  I don’t blame Spurs, Sixers and Kings fans for wanting to kick us while we’re down.  Those beat-downs we laid on them still sting years later.  Well, Spurs fans should be well past it now that they’ve earned their turn to dominate the league.  But it’s painfully clear in the posts on this board from certain Kings and Sixers fans that it stings like a mutha to this day.  To be that close to winning it all and have it yanked out from under you … and not even by a good team, but by the officials and David Stern.  Ouch.  
 

[rickortreat]

Yes, I think that sums it up.  Many of us outsiders are of the opinion that the Lakers organization is floundering.  They made a serious mistake in choosing Kobe over Shaq.  Was it Buss, Kupcake or Kobe's forcefull personality? Was it West finally loosing patience with the whole business of dealing with all the ego's?  

It may very well have been that if the Lakers sided with Shaq, they would have lost Kobe.  IMO, that would have served the Lakers better.  There are a number of top-line players who would have loved to get a shot at the title with Shaq.  By contrast, there are fewer of them if any, aching for the chance to play with Kobe.

It just comes down to who you build a team around.  Most of the time, success will come to the team with the dominant Center.  IMO it was a no-brainer to keep Shaq, even with all the pouting and comming into camp out of shape.  All it really would have taken was Buss saying to Shaq, "You're our guy if you want to be.  We'll build the team around you, and give you say in who comes.  We'll pay you, but we need you to not take so much as to prevent us from getting enough other decent players for you to go to the finals with."

Isn't this what Miami has done? Aren't players running to Miami to get onto the Championship express?  If you're a player in the NBA, and looking to get a ring, where do you want to go now?  Either San Antonio, Miami or maybe Phoenix, places where they already have a monster inside presence.  

Rebuilding is sometimes necessary.  The Kings made the right decision in moving Webber, IMO, because they knew that the team was in decline.  It may be a while for them to get back, but at least they started the process.  The Sixers have been trying to rebuild for a while and took a shot that Webber would move them closer.  We'll see what happens in Philly this year, now that AI and Webber have learned about how to help each other, and the young players are getting more experience.  What we're saying is that LA jumped the gun, and made a mistake in choosing which star to keep.  

There's no way you can say that LA will be better off this year than Miami.  And you won't be able to say that for another 3 seasons at least.  I don't necessarilly think there's more pressure to win in LA than anywhere else, but the fans there are certainly not going to be happy with a team that misses the playoffs for another year or two, watching guys like Mihm.  Lucky for the Lakers that the Clippers aren't worth watching either.  That would really get Buss's knickers in a bunch to see Jack and the other stars going to a Clippers game!

[westkoast]

There's no way you can say that LA will be better off this year than Miami.

No one has said that but in 2 years when Shaq is no longer on the court or playing very very few minutes who is going to have the better team?  We will see.  If they keep Wade around then they probably will continue to have a decent team long after Shaq.  If Kobe left who would the Lakers have in two years?  T-Mac was locked up contract wise, Amare locked up, Malone would be gone, Vince Carter?  Would Miami have let go of Wade to goto LA?

Wade is constantly overlooked in these Shaq/Kobe/Miami/Lakers debates.  Wade last year did loads and loads of work yet people constantly talk about how Shaq made the Heat grab a ECF apperance.  Shaq had three times as much help as Kobe did last year.