Did you hear this rumor?

[Guest]

Translation: Never put me on a jury. I look for WHAT IS BELIEVABLE and the motivation behind it. If I don't see both of those things, I don't inherently trust the information.

I totally agree, Joe, that's why I have problems with the accuser's actions immediately following the sordid event.  She went back to work and she wasn't visibly upset.  Most people who are raped go into shock -- they're stunned and while they may go back to work they struggle focusing, etc.  The only exception that I have seen is date rape victims -- when they have known the person quite well and usually have dated them a time or two (and they are afraid that people to share with people because it's going to be her word against his -- and even then, there were signs if a person knew what to look for).  

My struggle wasn't when the defense lawyers went to work -- it was from the very beginning.  There are just soooo many things that point that neither is as innocent as they would like you to believe in the whole ordeal -- and you have to prove this beyond reasonable doubt, there's just WAY too much doubt there on both sides, IMO.

The players you named aren't superstars. None of them has the public eye in the basketball realm the way that players like Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, Duncan, etc. have it. None of the players you listed are among the elite players. That means that they aren't the kind of person a player chooses to play with or not play with - because those players could be gone on a moment's notice and the GM wouldn't have any explaining to do to the fans. Not so with Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, etc. Kobe is a player who is a team foundation. He's not going anywhere. If you sign with the Lakers, the possibility that you stay and Bryant goes is nowhere in your mind.

When people sign with the Lakers, they know they're going to have to play with Kobe. When people sign with the Pacers, do they know that they're going to have to play with Artest? No. They're going to have to play with Jermaine O'Neal. So disliking Artest isn't the problem you should examine - disliking Jermaine O'Neal would be. You're comparing apples to oranges - a superstar (Bryant) to people who might be shipped out of town in a heartbeat.

Okay, point taken -- I might hav a case on Latrell (at least at one point in his career) but personally, I still believe these factors reign in the NBA -- when it comes to FA's signing:  1) money (first and foremost and overrides the other two); 2) playing time; and 3) championship (and at least with Kobe they DO have a chance at a championship -- not where there isn't a superstar such as the Clippers, Magic, etc.).  

If Kobe Bryant wanted these guys there, they'd have been there. Bryant's free agency was looming, and the Laker management was NOT going to lose their future foundation. Getting rid of Jackson was as much to do with appeasing Bryant as it was to do with saving money. The evidence? Jackson is back, and he's being paid tons of bucks to be back - so it's not the money that was the issue. It was something else.

[Guest_Randy]

Sorry, I wasn't done yet . . .

If Kobe Bryant wanted these guys there, they'd have been there. Bryant's free agency was looming, and the Laker management was NOT going to lose their future foundation. Getting rid of Jackson was as much to do with appeasing Bryant as it was to do with saving money. The evidence? Jackson is back, and he's being paid tons of bucks to be back - so it's not the money that was the issue. It was something else.

Okay, I think you are dead wrong on this one, Joe.  Why is PJ back (and why is he making so much money to come back?)?  Because the Lakers WEREN'T going to get better in FA or in the draft and Buss is faced with the need to make the Lakers better.  He recognizes that he has a good thing -- always HAS had with the Lakers.  He has a TREMENDOUS cash cow -- and that cow WILL pay up even if the Lakers don't win championships -- BUT they had better be competitive night in and night out and they need to have a legit shot at the playoffs.  People (stars) will continue to play INCREDIBLY overinflated prices for season tickets -- remember the .05 season?  When the series went back to LA, front row tickets were going for $25,000 a shot!  Where else are you going to find that in the NBA?  

Buss made his decision with Shaq -- and it was about money.  Did Kobe mind Shaq leaving?  Absolutely not -- and neither did I!  Why?  Because I was tired of Shaq coming into the season (and playing through the season) out-of-shape and overweight.  Shaq IS the reason why the Lakers lost to Detroit -- because he allowed himself to be covered one-on-one by Ben Wallace.  Sure, Shaq got his points and rebounds but the Pistons didn't focus on Shaq -- the focused on Kobe -- and Shaq NEVER gave them a reason to have to focus on him.  He should have been a monster -- scoring 50 or 60 points and MAKING the Pistons have to start doubling him.  TD did it in the second half of game 7 and when they started having to double TD, that's when things broke lose for the rest of the Spurs.  Ben Wallace just ran Shaq all over the court because Shaq was out-of-shape and he doesn't motivate himself.  WHY would you want another season (esp. since you knew he was going to come into the season in WORSE shape than the previous year) of Shaq in that kind of shape esp. when he was demanding an extension that was going to effectively kill the Lakers hopes of signing any quality players to play around Shaq and Kobe.  

And before you pull the "Shaq can get people to play along side him for less money," you need to look at what happened that year and realize that players weren't going to be eager to do that.  1)  How did it work out for GP and Malone?  They both gave up salary and it netted them nothing.  2)  Shaq tells THEM to come for less money -- "hey, come give up your salary --- I'll give you a ring!"  And WHILE they are playing for less money, he starts DEMANDING (to everyone -- even in front of them) that he needs an extension for the max!  How many players are going to be excited about giving up salary to come play with a guy that wants them to give up salary so he can get even MORE money?  Not very many, IMO.  

What should worry Laker fans for the future is that the only teams built on the strength of guards that have been championship teams are the 1991-4,1996-8 Bulls and the 1989-90 Pistons. And you could make compelling arguments that the '89-90 Pistons had the best backcourt in the league, and that the Bulls had two superstars in Jordan and Pippen. Right now, you've got Kobe Bryant. That more resembles the "got close" teams like Indiana, and only then when Reggie was surrounded with very good talent at all the other spots or the 1980-82 Sixers (yes, I know, Erving was a forward) with Dr. J - and look who all HE had surrounding him! Only when he got Moses in the post did he win - and that year, Moses was the MVP. Can Bryant stomach that? His history says that he can't.

Come on, Joe, you just got through telling me that I was comparing apples and oranges and so are you.  You are now comparing Reggie with Kobe?  Reggie, I don't play defense, Miller?  Come on, Joe, Reggie was NEVER a superstar -- he was a one-dimensional player and it showed in the playoffs!  Kobe IS a legit superstar so I don't think this comparison quite works.

As for Dr. J, look at the league at the time -- this was during the peak of Boston, LA, even the beginnings of Detroit.  The Sixers had star power but nothing like LA and Boston.  But the league has changed a LOT since then -- too many teams, IMO, not to mention the salary cap and lack of fundamentals and too many young players without discipline in the league today.  

On the bright side, Kobe is still young and has time to smarten up. But he can't be the player and person he was at the end of the 2004 season and expect success. He has to grow up.

I couldn't agree more with this comment.  It's the one thing that Laker fans have to hang their hat on.  MJ smartened up so I think there is hope for Kobe -- and frankly, last season was the best thing that could have happened to Kobe.  Realizing that he CAN'T do it all himself.

I would add the same thing about Shaq!  Look at Shaq's record with young superstars -- Penny, Kobe, now Wade.  Wade has definately acted more maturely than not only Penny and Kobe but also Shaq.  Shaq is STILL making the stupid comments that he did to Penny and Kobe -- the difference is that Wade doesn't even worry about it and just focuses on playing team ball.  He is more than happy to allow Shaq to hog the glory -- even when his team wins WITHOUT Shaq (and loses with him but without Wade).  Wade doesn't make any comments about anything -- he just looks forward to next year when he can play ball again.  Now THAT is a mature player -- THAT'S a guy I like -- on the basketball floor and off it (well, at least what I have seen to date).  

The Lakers had an ego problem for years -- one of the reasons why they had to build a new stadium -- because there wasn't enough room in the Forum for Kobe, Shaq AND PJ's egos (they are ALL huge).  What's amazing is that the Lakers ever managed to win three titles together!

[JoMal]

Randy –

You make some excellent points, especially about Shaq and his salary and luring other stars to the Lakers to win a championship. Looked at in that light, yeah, Shaq was truly out of line and you would be hard pressed to side with O'Neal with his "give me the money" demands.

But you can also argue that Shaq is no different from any other ego-driven sports star that is used to being given anything he wants. I would venture that both Payton and Malone, in their primes, would have acted the same way and come to think of it, they did.

Also, I was hoping to keep Kobe's rape trial out of this assessment of him. Serves as a distraction to the basketball stuff, which is what I would prefer the focus was on.

Your description of Shaq's performance during the Piston championship series sounds more like trying to find blame for the Lakers' pretty much getting hammered in that series. I have an alternative suggestion as to why they lost. The Pistons were the better team, including the coaching.  If Shaq could not dominate as he had in the previous series and previous years, maybe the defensive schemes that Brown employed and his players executed were just better.  I would also assume, being that this was Shaq, that he was not playing at 100% and besides him being in less then great shape, the daily toll of dealing with aggressive defenses may just have worn him down. Should he have played through all of that and been more offensive-minded? Sure, you would think, considering the stakes. But in all likelihood, he just was not able to, and as much as his shape contributed to that, he really is alone out there when it comes to the brutal defenses faced in the middle. Kobe, for instance, would not be able to help him control Wallace. But maybe he could have used a break with some front line help once in a while.

Reggie Miller is going into the Hall of Fame, so I don't think you have a point in saying Reggie was NEVER a superstar. His one dimension could win games in an instant and he did it over and over again.  While Kobe IS a more complete player, Joe's comparison is hardly that far off.

Now, as for Kobe maturing, yes, there is hope he may yet do that. But after ten years of mostly success, and getting his own way with coaches and players, fans loving him and Buss paying him tons for years, you have to think his ego MAY be a bit inflated. He just might think he can do it all himself, and one year of clearly (to us at least) contrary results may not change all that.

Just yet.

Eventually, as has been pointed out time and time again, including to Kobe whether he liked Shaq or not, the teams that win do so with more then one great player. Unfortunately, this is where I have a poor opinion of Bryant. I still suspect he believes that the Lakers will only succeed with only him being the star, and with him distributing the ball to teammates, and with all offensive sets starting with him in control.

THAT is the image that Kobe projects. THAT is where we, all of us, have yet to see his maturity focus. Because he will need to share that workload with somebody else at some point. A player who can be just as reliable as himself, where Bryant can essentially be a decoy on occasion because there is another teammate who can break down the opponent effectively.

He has NEVER been viewed as that player in his career. This is why talking about his assists being up and him teaching his teammates the triangle is totally bogus to this argument. Players who fit the real 'Star" billing will never have to be lectured on playing the game by Bryant and will produce plenty of assists on their own. But they will need to know they will have the ball enough of the game to do that, and playing along side Bryant so far has clearly indicated he has no intention of sharing it much.

That may just be my opinion, but that also has been a fair description of Kobe's image up to now.  



 

[Guest_Randy]

You make some excellent points, especially about Shaq and his salary and luring other stars to the Lakers to win a championship. Looked at in that light, yeah, Shaq was truly out of line and you would be hard pressed to side with O'Neal with his "give me the money" demands.

But you can also argue that Shaq is no different from any other ego-driven sports star that is used to being given anything he wants. I would venture that both Payton and Malone, in their primes, would have acted the same way and come to think of it, they did.

I don't disagree, JoMal.  Shaq isn't doing anything different than what Kobe did -- or even GP and Malone when they were younger.  However, it does apply to the situation at hand because it was a factor.  

Your description of Shaq's performance during the Piston championship series sounds more like trying to find blame for the Lakers' pretty much getting hammered in that series. I have an alternative suggestion as to why they lost. The Pistons were the better team, including the coaching. If Shaq could not dominate as he had in the previous series and previous years, maybe the defensive schemes that Brown employed and his players executed were just better. I would also assume, being that this was Shaq, that he was not playing at 100% and besides him being in less then great shape, the daily toll of dealing with aggressive defenses may just have worn him down. Should he have played through all of that and been more offensive-minded? Sure, you would think, considering the stakes. But in all likelihood, he just was not able to, and as much as his shape contributed to that, he really is alone out there when it comes to the brutal defenses faced in the middle. Kobe, for instance, would not be able to help him control Wallace. But maybe he could have used a break with some front line help once in a while.

I have always said that the team who wins the finals were the better team.  However, to state that my explanation was an excuse for why the Lakers got hammered isn't quite accurate, IMO.  Brown DID put a tremendous defensive scheme together for the Pistons and the Pistons played that to perfection.  Brown did the same thing with the Pistons in the SA series.  The Pistons weren't doubling TD and that allowed Detroit to play one-on-one with the rest of the Spurs players.  This IS great defense -- and until TD started playing in such a way that they started having to double him, it was working great for the Pistons.  Same thing is true with Shaq -- when he demands a double-team, it shakes things loose for everyone else.  Shaq got a great deal of help during the regular series and in the playoffs -- in fact, IMO, Malone played better in the SA series than Shaq did.  If it weren't for Malone, we wouldn't have made it past SA that year.  

And my point STILL is that when stock is starting to slip, you don't respond by dumping a TON of more money in it -- esp. if it's all the money you've got.  My ONLY regret with Shaq (other than he wouldn't motivate himself to stay in shape) is that we didn't get MORE for him.  THAT was a travesty!

Reggie Miller is going into the Hall of Fame, so I don't think you have a point in saying Reggie was NEVER a superstar. His one dimension could win games in an instant and he did it over and over again. While Kobe IS a more complete player, Joe's comparison is hardly that far off.

Sorry, but there are a TON of players in the Hall of Fame that aren't superstars -- Reggie Miller was NEVER a superstar -- a star?  Sure, but not a superstar.  Artest is as good a player, if not better, than Reggie Miller -- same with Spree (who actually plays on both ends of the court as was a very good defensive player in his day).  Being a Hall of Famer, these days, doesn't earn you the superstar status.  Reggie is comparable to the players I mentioned -- Rodman WILL make it into the NBA Hall of Fame someday (if they don't ban him for being an idiot) because the league has seen few players as good defensively as Rodman and the guy was a rebounding machine.  If you are going to put a purely one-dimensional player like Reggie in the Hall of Fame because he was great in that dimension -- then you have to put in ALL great one-dimensional players -- and that's a real shame, IMO.  There will be many players who make the Hall of Fame - that doesn't make them a superstar.  

Reggie is in the same boat, IMO, with Artest, Rodman, Spree, etc.

Unfortunately, this is where I have a poor opinion of Bryant. I still suspect he believes that the Lakers will only succeed with only him being the star, and with him distributing the ball to teammates, and with all offensive sets starting with him in control.

JoMal, name a superstar in the league who doesn't feel this way about himself!  I can name a lot of STARS in the league who feel that way -- CWebb definately among them!  Most teams have at LEAST one player who feels that way about themselves.  You do find some stars that are willing to share the limelight but your description definately would have fit MJ, wouldn't it?  Even Magic, who was a consumate team player, realized that HE was the star -- he just also realized that he couldn't do it all himself.  I don't have a problem with Bryant feeling like he's a great player and he's the man for the Lakers -- all those things are true!  What I have a problem with is the mindset that he's the ONLY Laker and that he doesn't need anyone else.  I don't agree that he displays that attitude all the time -- what I don't like is that he has that attitude at all!

[JoMal]

I don't disagree, JoMal.  Shaq isn't doing anything different than what Kobe did -- or even GP and Malone when they were younger.  However, it does apply to the situation at hand because it was a factor.  

 

And I am not saying it wasn't.

Same thing is true with Shaq -- when he demands a double-team, it shakes things loose for everyone else.  Shaq got a great deal of help during the regular series and in the playoffs -- in fact, IMO, Malone played better in the SA series than Shaq did.  If it weren't for Malone, we wouldn't have made it past SA that year. 

And my point STILL is that when stock is starting to slip, you don't respond by dumping a TON of more money in it -- esp. if it's all the money you've got.  My ONLY regret with Shaq (other than he wouldn't motivate himself to stay in shape) is that we didn't get MORE for him.  THAT was a travesty!

But when Malone went down in the playoff series, would you not agree that his being hurt had to have a huge effect on the outcome of the Detroit series? He was playing some dominant basketball up to that point and then it went back onto Shaq's shoulders alone.

As for Shaq's salary demands, any team that has him only has one choice, same as when he was with the Lakers. You get one other legit player to be the playmaker, pay him some good change, and fill up the rest of the roster with NBA
filler material. That pattern looks to be playing out in Miami, though it also seems to work.  

JoMal, name a superstar in the league who doesn't feel this way about himself!  I can name a lot of STARS in the league who feel that way -- CWebb definately among them!  Most teams have at LEAST one player who feels that way about themselves.  You do find some stars that are willing to share the limelight but your description definately would have fit MJ, wouldn't it?  Even Magic, who was a consumate team player, realized that HE was the star -- he just also realized that he couldn't do it all himself.  I don't have a problem with Bryant feeling like he's a great player and he's the man for the Lakers -- all those things are true!  What I have a problem with is the mindset that he's the ONLY Laker and that he doesn't need anyone else.  I don't agree that he displays that attitude all the time -- what I don't like is that he has that attitude at all!

Comparing Kobe to other superstars who feel the same way isn't the point. My point is those superstars are having the same troubles with it that Bryant appears to have. Iverson, McGrady, even Garnett for some reason, and his game is pretty even. Jordan had Pippen, voted one of the top fifty players ever, so it is hard to include him in a discussion about selfish egos in ball players. But when you strip away those other players and just observe the star, you certainly can learn a lot about them.

And Magic??? With Worthy and Jabber, I don't think his game suffered too much from anyone wanting him not to be the point guard on THAT team.

[Skandery]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the christmas game when Miami had beaten the Lakers.  To tell you the honest truth I was flabbergasted at the talent Kobe displayed, it was an amazing thing to behold.  Miami would score-Kobe sinks a three from 24 feet top of the key, Miami scores-Kobe sinks another three from the baseline, Miami scores-Kobe sinks another three from 27 feet on the diagonal.  Fueled by that sense to show the world he didn't need Shaq and could beat him, he made me question whether he was going to miss a single shot that game during the first quarter.  Well, eventually he did start to miss and although he played a spectacular game dropping 45 points, Miami won the game.  That game is the michrochosm of this whole situation with Kobe and the Lakers.  

Kobe hated the fact that as skilled and as amazing as he was, Shaq was billed "as the most dominant".  As hardworking and persistant as he was, Shaq was "the Franchise".  I think that more than anything across the Lakers championship years just stuck in his craw (to borrow a western phrase).  It was the bird nibbling on his entrails as he won championship after championship.  Whether subconcious or outwardly poignant, he began to resent Shaq, and what he perceived as Phil's favoritism towards Shaq (and if you read Phil's book, his perception was probably right).  And when the Lakers got shelacked by some up and coming, over-achieving, journeyman like the Pistons, that was exactly the excuse he needed to gain control of what was rightfully HIS.  Kobe pushed Shaq and Phil out to prove to the entire world that he was good enough on his own (without those two) to bring the Lakers glory.  Maybe it is this fear of under-appreciation or envy (might be a better word) that leads him to work harder, put his teammates down, trust only himself with the important shots, run the offense, direct traffic, speak up during timeouts.  Some of these are great qualities to have in a leader, but taken too far, could lead to arrogance, selfishness, aloofness, jealousy.  

Lamar Odom his last year on the Heat was the focus of the offense.  His passing and shooting ability from the high post lead to defensive mismatches and great opportunites for cutters like Caron and Dwayne.  He was confidant, decisive, and it showed as he had his best year ever in his career.  Watching him last year with the Lakers, he seemed lost when he got the ball (the few times he did).  He would settle for bad outside shots, try to force shots in traffic or just hand it back to Kobe.  You'd swear it was two different people.  That is until Kobe went down and people caught a glimpse of the previous year's brilliance and Laker Fans enjoyed double-doubles and four different games of 8 assists and another one with 7 assists.  

Taken in context of my larger theory, Kobe Bryant in his quest to prove to the world that he is indeed a superstar of supreme dominance in the basketball world hangs over like a cloud across the Laker team.  The flow of the game is so saturated with Kobe's involvement that it stifles the creativity and prowess of players like Odom.  Players the Lakers need to realize success once again.  Even with a player like Jordan, Luc Longley and Ron Harper were the main offense to start games.  Scottie Pippen brought the ball up the court on many occasions.  With that great 92-93 Phoenix team, Richard Dumas was the first quarters offensive focus (not Barkley-MVP, not KJ, not Majerle).

I believe for the Lakers to succeed, Kobe is going to have to learn to trust again.  He is going to have to trust that someone else on his team can score, can pass, can set the offense, and that doesn't mean he still won't be the best player on the team or that he won't be its captain or that he won't be appreciated by Laker fans.  I think Phil might help him in this respect (if I'm correct and its a mental problem).  

I don't believe that Dwayne Wade has the all-around skills of Kobe Bryant, yet.  In time, maybe, but as it stands today, no way.  But Wade has no problem doing what he does, being the all-star he is, contributing as much as he can when all reporters can say is "what a great teammate", and posters like some of us will say "Shaq is the reason Miami is title contender".  None of that bothers Wade.  He doesn't care if Shaq calls himself the best player on the Heat, he doesn't care if people believe it when Shaq says it.  This is the mental advantage that Wade has on Kobe.  This is why he makes up one component of the best 1-2 punch in the league.  It is his lack of the mental insecurites Bryant has that allows him to play with a dominant player like Shaq.  Now 4 years down the road should Wade gain some championships alongside Shaq, will he begin to have some of Kobe's problems.  I don't know, it is a possibility.  As Kobe matures and gets over his problems, will he allow meaningful contribution from star teammates, I don't know, it is a possibility.  

Should Kobe have tried to get over his problems and tried his hardest to make sure Phil and Shaq came back and keep things going.  I think he should have but thats my personal opinion.  Will Kobe prove me wrong, he may very well.  As it stands after one year, I don't begrudge JoMaL's opinion that maybe a change is necessary, and I don't begrudge Randy and WK's opinion that the Lakers have not been given enough time to build around Kobe.  I will simply wait and see...

[Joe Vancil]

Skander,

To add to your thought, though, what should we EXPECT to see from Kobe?  Realistic expectations have to be out there for him.

Is it realistic to expect a Laker title in the next year or two?  Well, that kind of depends on what happens with the roster, doesn't it?  If LA suddenly gets a couple of top-level post players in steal deals, it changes the level of expectations.

Is it realistic to expect a Laker playoff berth in the next year or so?  Again, it depends.

What folks don't realize is that Kobe has REMOVED the expectations from himself in this little soap opera.  And I maintain that without some level of expectation, Kobe can't hope to redeem himself.  

Kobe's fans will always be his fans, and his haters will always be his haters.  But how does the objective outsider evaluate Kobe Bryant *NOW*?

Obviously, he has to step up his leadership skills.  The question is, "How will we know it when he does?"  He has to do a better job winning the respect of his teammates.  He has to do a better job of putting his faith in his teammates.  BUT HOW WILL WE KNOW IT?

In my opinion, Bryant has irrevokably damaged his reputation, because there's no good criteria of evaluation - save the "miracle" type of happening (the Lakers, with their current roster, win the championship - and even then, will the credit go to Kobe, or to Phil?).  And miracles don't happen often.

I've often said at the office, "I don't want the reputation of being a miracle worker, because then, people expect you to routinely work miracles."  Like it or not, before the happenings of 2003-4, Bryant was a miracle worker.  He's lost that golden image.  I don't know that it's possible to recapture it.

 

[JoMal]

Besides all of what you guys have said, Kobe is never going to grow another six inches and add 150 pounds, so all he has to fall back on is his skill level. He never will be as dominant as Shaq, no matter how skilled he gets.

[Skandery]

What folks don't realize is that Kobe has REMOVED the expectations from himself in this little soap opera. And I maintain that without some level of expectation, Kobe can't hope to redeem himself.

Kobe's fans will always be his fans, and his haters will always be his haters. But how does the objective outsider evaluate Kobe Bryant *NOW*?

Whether Kobe has removed the expectations or not (and I'm not arguing that he didn't), doesn't stop expectations from being placed on him, ANYWAY.  After all this guy is the best player on the Lakers (not the Hawks) in all their grandiose.  I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head.

Now the objective outsider will take a look at a couple of factors:

1.  How successful have the Kobe Lakers been?
2.  How successful has Kobe's team been in relation to Shaq's team?
3.  If the Lakers are successful, did Kobe contribute significantly?

If the answer to those questions is yes, moreso, and yes, I'll gladly eat my words that Kobe can't do it alone.  If the answer is yes, less so, and yes, I'll eat my words about Kobe but maintain he should've tried to keep Shaq around.  Any other answers and I'll believe Kobe screwed up a good thing.

Besides all of what you guys have said, Kobe is never going to grow another six inches and add 150 pounds, so all he has to fall back on is his skill level. He never will be as dominant as Shaq, no matter how skilled he gets.

I don't think anyone disputes that at this time, my question remains does the fact that people believe this in anyway propogate Kobe's insecurities and thereby lead to mediocre Laker teams.  
   

[Reality]

What folks don't realize is that Kobe has REMOVED the expectations from himself in this little soap opera. And I maintain that without some level of expectation, Kobe can't hope to redeem himself.

Kobe's fans will always be his fans, and his haters will always be his haters. But how does the objective outsider evaluate Kobe Bryant *NOW*?

Whether Kobe has removed the expectations or not (and I'm not arguing that he didn't), doesn't stop expectations from being placed on him, ANYWAY.  After all this guy is the best player on the Lakers (not the Hawks) in all their grandiose.  I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head.
 

Phil Jackson in coming back to coach did Kobe one of if not the biggest favors that struggling Kobadiah could recieve.  Media attention on Kobe, if the Lakers flame and lotto next year (i agree, lets give him his chance to try to be like MJ) would have been total spotlight.   Whatever other coach they would have hired, except Larry B, oh sure the coach would have caught some media for not being in the playoffs.  But that coach would not be the great and powerful wizard of PhilZen.  He be burned a bit in the media, but nothing like Kobe.  

Kobadiah would get the full brunt of the attention.  Xs it by 5 if Shaqs thigh heals and The Heat have another 1st place reg season.

Now with Phil, any lotto team finish or 1st Round flop and the media blitz will be divided.  Probably a bit more towards Phil but certainly no worse then 50-50.

Phil whats it like after 9 rings now tanking?
Repeat repeat repeat blah blah blah.  

Besides the national and LA media, dabods get the bandwidth increase ready here.

 

[Guest_Randy]

Whether Kobe has removed the expectations or not (and I'm not arguing that he didn't), doesn't stop expectations from being placed on him, ANYWAY. After all this guy is the best player on the Lakers (not the Hawks) in all their grandiose. I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head.

Now the objective outsider will take a look at a couple of factors:

1. How successful have the Kobe Lakers been?
2. How successful has Kobe's team been in relation to Shaq's team?
3. If the Lakers are successful, did Kobe contribute significantly?

If the answer to those questions is yes, moreso, and yes, I'll gladly eat my words that Kobe can't do it alone. If the answer is yes, less so, and yes, I'll eat my words about Kobe but maintain he should've tried to keep Shaq around. Any other answers and I'll believe Kobe screwed up a good thing.

Umm, guys, I think you misunderstanding my points to date.

Here they are in a nutshell:

1.  Kobe, Shaq, PJ -- they are ALL guilty in this -- none are innocent, all are equally to blame.

2.  It took ALL three (and some quality role players) to win 3 NBA Championships -- the were all needed and all were vital (I'd throw Tex Winters in there too).

3.  I have never said that Kobe has been successful or will be successful as the leader of the Lakers.  What I have said is that you can't judge at this point because he lacks the role players needed to due to the lack of cap space to judge.  I don't think you are going to be able to come to a conclusion for several years -- and if Kobe doesn't live up to be the leader that I think he can be?  Absolutely, I'll be calling for the Lakers to trade him for whatever they can get!  


PS - There is a LOT mentioned about the fact that Shaq took Miami to the EC Finals -- but we need to stop and remember the following:  Miami managed to win without Shaq but they got beat without Wade.  I think that says a LOT about Miami's team even without Shaq.  While Shaq deserves a lot of credit -- let's make sure that we realize that Miami managed to do pretty well for themselves without Shaq.  I would, of course, add that Shaq (like any good superstar -- esp. when he's a big man rebounding, blocking shots and playing defense) helps role players confidence a great deal.

[westkoast]

" I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head."

I hope we all continue to post together for the next 4 years.  All I can say is only time will tell.

However, I will not call for Kobe's head unless the Lakers management bring in somebody to help out.  If the Lakers land a quality player(s) to compliment Kobe and they continue to fall flat, then I will not give him a pass.   Right now I feel its too early to judge anything and the Lakers management (aka that moron Kupchek) need to do their part also.

If the Lakers magically make the playoffs next year will you be feasting on crow Skand?  :cheers:  

[Joe Vancil]

I don't think anyone disputes that at this time, my question remains does the fact that people believe this in anyway propogate Kobe's insecurities and thereby lead to mediocre Laker teams.

Wouldn't it HAVE TO?  I mean, come on - there's been one 2-guard in the past 25 years who people have looked at as the key to the championship, and a lot of people (mistakenly) believe that that guy is the best player of all time!  Kobe has been crowned the "Next Jordan" for a number of years, and Jordan never played second fiddle to anyone during his stay in the pros.  It's easily possible for someone to argue that, due to the expectations, Kobe was underachieving.  Now personally, I think that the only way Kobe underachieved was in allowing himself to become a distraction to the team, which finally blossommed into a distraction from winning.  By the numbers, Kobe's had a great career.

And let's not forget that Kobe's father also displayed a lot of the same kind of "what I could have been" behavior - comparing himself with Erving and Magic.  Perhaps it's more than just the environment at work.

I believe that being the best 2-guard in the league was so inadequate for Kobe's ego - whether that's due to arrogance or insecurity, I can't really say -  that he destroyed one of the key chemistries that allowed him to be the league's best 2-guard.  The talent is still there - but the chemistry has to be re-worked.

As for expectations, I think my question is really "What are *FAIR* expectations which Bryant must meet to elevate his status back to what it was?"  Beating a single player's team doesn't really cut it, in my book.  Nor does Laker success, if it comes with too high of a price in the meantime.  Is a single title all he needs?  Given what he had, I don't know that that's significant enough of an accomplishment.  Granted, that's a significant statement about his accomplishments in the past, but it also plays a part in his expectations for the future.  And how quickly that is done *DOES* play a part in the whole picture.