Did you hear this rumor?

[Guest_Randy]

Just in case no one realized it, that was my post above!

[westkoast]

"Kobe should concern you more for how he works with his teammates as much as anything else. I am just not seeing much enthusiasm from anyone coming to the Lakers these days, and it would seem it should be for those reasons you stated as well as the history."

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  Please share your inside information with us JoMaL on how you are gauging the levels of excitement of anyone stepping foot into LA.  You know id tell you otherwise, being that these guys show up in public here ( you know clubs, venues, and places to eat) and on shows such as Jay Leno talking about how fun it is to play in LA.....but why bother you with words out of their mouth (or them having a great time) when we have such solid assumptions to run with?

On the court?  Did you notice a different attitude when they were playing half way decent at the begging of the season?  How about when they started to lose alot?  Did you see a change then?  Had to have been all Kobe doing that! They werent down because they were losing, they were down because Kobe did something!  Not sure what but he did it!  Kobe didnt work well with teammates this season...that is why he had a career year in the assists department and had numerious double digit assist games.


"I heard he was asked prior to the Brown trade that involved his best friend on the team, and he said it was fine by him"

Oh I could see it now, Kobe says he thinks the trade is bad because he likes Caron and management does it anyways...

In swoops JoMaL like the cape crusader of critism to talk about how all Kobe does is alienate new players who are comming to his team.  Oh man would the hate sign be flashing in the clouds ( or on a barn ) for you to fly in if Kobe were to say that.

[JoMal]

What do you expect Kobe to say -- that he doesn't want Brown because it cost him the guy he likes best on the Lakers?  Let's see, on one hand, Kobe is supposed to allow management to make the decisions and on the other hand he is supposed to pitch a fit when he doesn't like a trade.  Because Kobe says it's "fine by him" that means that he doesn't care?  Kobe doesn't make the decisions, does he?  He is trying to be a team player and you even rack him for that!  Kinda sounds like Kobe couldn't make you happy no matter WHAT he does!!!  

 

Randy, what on earth are you talking about.

I don't care whether Kobe is consulted on personnel decisions or not, and as I stated, it is not uncommon for management to consult with their key players on transactions. And I certainly would think Kobe, or any other player, would be honest in their assessments if asked for them.

What I think is GREAT is that you seem to know the thoughts of every NBA player -- nobody in the league wants to come play with Kobe!  Wow, you have surveyed every NBA player and know that as fact, I'm impressed JoMal.

Neither do you so you have no idea if they actually DO want to come play with Kobe.

But, gee Randy, ummmm, let's consider the exit poll of players who actually HAVE played with your Mr. Bryant.

YIKES!!!! I can see why you don't want to go there!!! :eek2:

Why don't you admit that your comments are based on your own hypothesis rather than fact.  We don't KNOW that nobody wants to come play with Kobe because at this point, nobody CAN come play with Kobe. There isn't the opportunity because the Lakers are over the cap and have very little trade bait to interest teams.

Thank God for that, huh Randy? What a mess it could be if the Lakers actually had cap space and tradable material. Man, it sure is fortunate you have THOSE little arguements to fall back on, or where would you be?

I have yet to hear that "so-and-so" team was discussing a trade but "said" player refused to go to the Lakers because he didn't want to play with Kobe.

There are compelling reasons other then Kobe that lure players to want to play in Los Angeles and especially with the Lakers. That is the thing, though, is it not? You are not likely to hear anything like you suggest, because LA will do its own PR for the players involved. Why do so many who leave the team not seem too upset then? I suppose suggestions about player chemistry and job satisfaction are no longer relevant arguements for me to make at this point.    

So do you KNOW that other players in the NBA don't want to go play with Kobe -- or do you just THINK that other players don't want to go play with Kobe?  Notice you don't hear Vlade talking about the fact that he can't stand Kobe -- that he didn't want to play with Kobe.  I think you need to separate fact from fiction -- the fact is something, at this point, that we don't know -- the fiction is what is spewing from your posts.

I think Vlade looked forward to playing with Kobe. So what? Vlade made friends with Chris Webber and welcomed him to SacTown and it improved Chris' image to be viewed in that positive light. Vlade is the ultimate team player, who worked out kinks in all relationships and made light of everything and problems just seemed to go away with him around. The best roll-playing center in the League, in his prime, no question. He made everyone happy because they all could get good looks at the basket with him running things.

Man oh man, could the Lakers use him next year instead of who you got to play the middle instead.

Good luck.  

[JoMal]

<That was just confusing to have posted twice>

[JoMal]

<But to post it three times - I blame the system for not acknowledging it the first two times>

[JoMal]

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  Please share your inside information with us JoMaL on how you are gauging the levels of excitement of anyone stepping foot into LA.  You know id tell you otherwise, being that these guys show up in public here ( you know clubs, venues, and places to eat) and on shows such as Jay Leno talking about how fun it is to play in LA.....but why bother you with words out of their mouth (or them having a great time) when we have such solid assumptions to run with?

 

Players who come to Los Angeles enjoy the nightlife once there. Stop the presses.

When they open up a nightclub at Staples owned by Kobe and all his teammates show up, let me know.

And when they leave the Lakers, they never sound off over the city, do they?

Sorry if this all comes across to you like rocket science, westkoast, but when did Kobe=Los Angeles?

On the court?  Did you notice a different attitude when they were playing half way decent at the begging of the season?  How about when they started to lose alot?  Did you see a change then?  Had to have been all Kobe doing that! They werent down because they were losing, they were down because Kobe did something!  Not sure what but he did it!  Kobe didnt work well with teammates this season...that is why he had a career year in the assists department and had numerious double digit assist games.

Now you're just being foolish and I am insulted for the first time by what you are saying. KOBE, if you have forgotten, IS the offensive focus of the Lakers. You can count on one hand the number of offensive sets the Lakers ran all of last year when Kobe was on the court and the ball WAS NOT in his hands. That is just a ridiculous argument and you know it.

And prey tell, what did you expect his teammates to do? Throw the ball out of bounds instead of passing it to Kobe? Keep their hands at their sides on feeds by Bryant to the basket?

Is this argument really just as black and white as that to you? Give me some credit for a better understanding of this situation then that, because I find it embarassing FOR YOU even having to address this nonsense.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of this.  

[Guest_Randy]

Neither do you so you have no idea if they actually DO want to come play with Kobe.

But, gee Randy, ummmm, let's consider the exit poll of players who actually HAVE played with your Mr. Bryant.

YIKES!!!! I can see why you don't want to go there!!! 

Sure, I do -- I'd LOVE to go there!  So trot out your comments from players leaving LA outside of Shaq!  

Malone was tight with Kobe until he made the comments to his wife.

GP (and agent) has already contacted the Lakers about returning this fall.

I've heard comments that Horry has made but they have more to do with Shaq than they did Kobe.  

So, sure, pony them out there, we can discuss them.

Thank God for that, huh Randy? What a mess it could be if the Lakers actually had cap space and tradable material. Man, it sure is fortunate you have THOSE little arguments to fall back on, or where would you be?

Well, that's certainly one way to back up your argument - state that I can't prove my hypothesis even though you can't prove yours either.  I've been saying ALL along (while you've been yapping) that we are going to have to wait to see who is correct.  I believe that it has a WHOLE lot more to do with money than it does Kobe -- why?  Because that's what players play for around this league.  We've only seen a handful of players make any exceptions to the rule but we don't lambast every team that doesn't get someone to give up money to play for their team, do we?  Just the team and player you don't like!  I think you've been eating too many of those sour grapes again!!!

[westkoast]

Players who come to Los Angeles enjoy the nightlife once there. Stop the presses.

When they open up a nightclub at Staples owned by Kobe and all his teammates show up, let me know.

And when they leave the Lakers, they never sound off over the city, do they?

Sorry if this all comes across to you like rocket science, westkoast, but when did Kobe=Los Angeles?

This might be crazy to you JoMaL but these guys actually talk to people in the clubs, around town,  and are on local tv saying things all bright eyed with a smile ear to ear.  If it was so horrible being in LA and playing for LA then why are they telling people in the club they love playing ball in LA?  Who had a problem with Kobe last year?  You seem to know how all NBA players think so lets hear it.  Chuck Atkins.....some random anonamous source :rolleyes:

See JoMaL...here in LA there is plenty to do and these players are out all the time doing things in LA.  Ive seen Odom shopping and at a venue for some hip hop group.  So while you are running with this Miss Cleo psychic ability..I am going off of what people in LA have been told.

Now you're just being foolish and I am insulted for the first time by what you are saying. KOBE, if you have forgotten, IS the offensive focus of the Lakers. You can count on one hand the number of offensive sets the Lakers ran all of last year when Kobe was on the court and the ball WAS NOT in his hands. That is just a ridiculous argument and you know it.

JoMaL....the lakers ran two different offensive schemes last year.  So cut the 'we can count the number of sets the Lakers ran on one hand'   The argument isnt ridiculous.  Whats ridiculous is the fact that you think everything is controlled by Kobe...the attitude of the team and each player, personel moves, and of course anything else that needs a decision to be made in Staples Center.  I personally blame Kobe for the cost of Krispy Kreme's in the Staples Center.


And prey tell, what did you expect his teammates to do? Throw the ball out of bounds instead of passing it to Kobe? Keep their hands at their sides on feeds by Bryant to the basket?

What the hell are you talking about?   If Kobe was so horrible with his teammates on the court then why was his assists up?  Why was he staying late after practice trying to show Mihm and others where they need to be in the triangle?  Why did he call Caron Butler the minute he got sent to the Lakers to start working out with him?  You seem to have this uncanny ability to read the minds of NBA players so please tell us what the real problem was instead of just saying random things.


Is this argument really just as black and white as that to you? Give me some credit for a better understanding of this situation then that, because I find it embarassing FOR YOU even having to address this nonsense.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of this

Id love to give you credit for a better understanding of this situation but you cant seem to grasp simple concepts and continue to run with assumptions you thought up yourself without any real hard facts to back it up.

[JoMal]

These arent' current, but gee they sound like they could be

Sports
February 8, 2001

Shaq, Kobe: Know your roles
They continue their immature squabble with Lakers' season hanging in the balance

BY DAVID GONEN
Sports n' Stuff
The Johns Hopkins News-Letter


.......A more reliable barometer for the situation are the other 10 players on the Lakers. Several of them have lodged complaints against Kobe that he is often too selfish and does not get his teammates involved.

These are the opinions that matter, for as much importance people are placing on Kobe and Shaq, it's the other guys on the floor who are going to determine the Laker's fate this year.

These players are simply not involved in the offense the way they were last year. Last year, when the offense ran through Shaq, he made a great effort to involve the rest of his team. His assist statistics were better than any other big man in the league.

This year, players feel that once they give the ball to Kobe, they might as well hurry back for defense because they're not getting the ball back.
It is no surprise that the Laker's team defense has gone from superb to awful. The other Lakers are frustrated on offense, which translates into lack of motivation on defense.
 
So, as badly as Shaq has handled it, he does have a point. The Lakers are a better team when the offense runs through him. And he is a better player.....

http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/02-8-01/Sports/7.html

Defensive effort
The 'bag man's All-Star picks come under fire
Posted: Friday January 24, 2003 1:31 PM 

Sports Illustrated senior writer Jack McCallum

...The main insider complaints about Kobe are: he isolates himself from his teammates and isn't a good enough leader; he criticizes the other Lakers too much; and he is prone to operate outside the triangle offense.....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_ga.../01/24/mailbag/

Mr. Triangle Kobe Bryant was showing others where they had to be in the Triangle :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Do you mean he was showing them how to be out of position in it?

Now, these are not current, so you will be coming back at me on that. Let me assure you, my reason is that it is THIS image of Bryant that still lingers today. The argument that "he's changed" carries as much weight with teammates as it does with the judge adjudicating a domestic battery trial.

And if you are trying to justify somehow that Kobe Bryant did not initiate the Laker offense last year, it would help if this were somehow visually relayed to anyone who watched the team at all. Two offenses, one when he was on the court and one when he was off. I get it.

Whats ridiculous is the fact that you think everything is controlled by Kobe...the attitude of the team and each player, personel moves, and of course anything else that needs a decision to be made in Staples Center. I personally blame Kobe for the cost of Krispy Kreme's in the Staples Center.

What's utterly ridiculous is your continuous lame attempt to justify your own argument by continually saying this about what I am talking about when only YOU are fixated on it. So clearly this is your own opinion because it never was, nor never did I ever indicate that Kobe was the control freak ON ALL THINGS IN LOS ANGELES that you make him out to be.

How did my opinion that the Lakers are going to find it hard to attract a quality star NBA player back to Los Angeles to play along side Kobe Bryant get twisted into my being psychic about what every other player in the NBA thinks, that Kobe runs the Lakers, that Kobe is, in fact, the equivalent of Los Angeles - that "the attitude of the team and each player, personel moves, and of course anything else that needs a decision to be made in Staples Center" comes from Kobe? To even the cost of Krispy Kreme's at Staple?

Then you accuse me of having an opinion based on these psychic musings. Guess what? It IS my opinion. That's all. Sorry if your bloated Laker egoes can't handle a negative opinion about your damned team and the cesspool of a city you live in, but congradulations on finally ferreting it out that I AM expressing an opinion here. That it apparently is making you all sick about it is a shame, but hardly affects it and won't.

Do you have any idea of the intellectual morass such pathetic arguments require to even respond to?

But honestly, the Lakers can keep Kobe, trade him, leave him in a bag on a park bench somewhere, or trade him to a college soriety to be their pull toy. I can't say his doing any of those things will make much of a difference until the Lakers figure it out. Not Kobe. I said the LAKERS

I am talking about whether or not it makes sense to trade Kobe Bryant now, since the team will be rebuilding anyway and his baggage is extreme and could be detrimental to the franchise over the next few seasons. If you guys want to continue to respond to that premise with a blithering dribblefest of mortification, so be it.

[westkoast]

"Mr. Triangle Kobe Bryant was showing others where they had to be in the Triangle    

Do you mean he was showing them how to be out of position in it?"

Dont make comments about people spewing non-sense when you make comments like this.  You obviously didnt see very many Laker games the 2nd half of the season did you JoMaL?

Did you ever notice how players being out of place caused the triangle to break down and guys like Caron and Kobe were forced to freelance because of bad spacing?  Oh wait you didnt :laugh:

Two offenses JoMaL...one geared around Kobe with Rudy.  The other the triangle offense put in mid-season.  Please tell us how along with your psychic ability to know what all NBA players are thinking that you also can comment on 82 games where you get to watch a whooppin 10-15 per year.

If you guys want to continue to respond to that premise with a blithering dribblefest of mortification, so be it.


Just giving you a taste of your own medicine here...that is all.  Hook, line, and sinker.  As for dribblefest...is this comming from the same JoMaL who knows how every single NBA player feels about Kobe Bryant personally and whether or not they would ever goto the Lakers?  Cuz we all know money isnt the most important factor in this league for players when they sign somewhere else right?

then you accuse me of having an opinion based on these psychic musings. Guess what? It IS my opinion. That's all.

Maybe you should start acting like they are opinions and not stone cold facts.  Im not the only person who saw this JoMaL, Randy has also.

See JoMaL you think because you personally dont like Kobe that everyone feels the same way.  Some people do give people the benefit of the doubt and would like to get to know them personally before they start to hate them like you do.
 

[JoMal]

"Mr. Triangle Kobe Bryant was showing others where they had to be in the Triangle    

Do you mean he was showing them how to be out of position in it?"

Dont make comments about people spewing non-sense when you make comments like this.  You obviously didnt see very many Laker games the 2nd half of the season did you JoMaL?

Did you ever notice how players being out of place caused the triangle to break down and guys like Caron and Kobe were forced to freelance because of bad spacing?  Oh wait you didnt :laugh:

 

THAT was not my opinion, westkoast. It was just my added commentary to someone else who for some reason felt Kobe messed up the triangle all on his own. You should have seen that for yourself, but once again your struggles continue.

Two offenses JoMaL...one geared around Kobe with Rudy.  The other the triangle offense put in mid-season.  Please tell us how along with your psychic ability to know what all NBA players are thinking that you also can comment on 82 games where you get to watch a whooppin 10-15 per year.

And which of those offenses ignored Bryant?

Just giving you a taste of your own medicine here...that is all.  Hook, line, and sinker.  As for dribblefest...is this comming from the same JoMaL who knows how every single NBA player feels about Kobe Bryant personally and whether or not they would ever goto the Lakers?  Cuz we all know money isnt the most important factor in this league for players when they sign somewhere else right?

Once your translation gets through my language filter, I will predict once again that you will say my opinion is actually some kind of omnipresent, all-knowing ability that defies gravity.

I bet you are sitting down right now.

See? I knew that.

Maybe you should start acting like they are opinions and not stone cold facts.  Im not the only person who saw this JoMaL, Randy has also.
See JoMaL you think because you personally dont like Kobe that everyone feels the same way.  Some people do give people the benefit of the doubt and would like to get to know them personally before they start to hate them like you do.

Maybe you should remove your head from its unnatural position and view what I have submitted here for what they always were and always have been - just my opinions. I never intended to overwhelm you with anything that may give you a rupture about your precious Kobe.

But just because I personally do not like Kobe, in which I am not alone, does not affect my opinion that Kobe's image is not steller. I am sure that money and location would certainly make many players go anywhere they can if all things are equal. Kobe has money; the Lakers have money. Between them, they just might make his questionable past disappear.

Do you guys want collaborating documentation on that? I'm not really interested in finding any, so don't ask.

But you certainly are welcome to your own opinion of that wonderful young man with a beautiful wife, to whom he is constantly faithful, who has a terrific relationship with his father, his home town, all of the basketball players in the entire world, and his coaches, none of whom have ever said a bad word about him.

Gee, I wish he was MY personal buttlicker to the stars. You guys are so blessed to be in the same sphere as him, no wonder you agree with everything in that statement. :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  

[Guest_Joe Vancil]

What the hell are you talking about? If Kobe was so horrible with his teammates on the court then why was his assists up? Why was he staying late after practice trying to show Mihm and others where they need to be in the triangle? Why did he call Caron Butler the minute he got sent to the Lakers to start working out with him? You seem to have this uncanny ability to read the minds of NBA players so please tell us what the real problem was instead of just saying random things.

A while back, I hurt my knee on the basketball court.  Couldn't bend it all the way.  Ended up going to the doctor, getting it diagnosed, and then ended up doing some re-hab work on it for quite some time before it really got better.

The same could be said of Kobe Bryant.  His behavoir hurt his image really, really bad.  He was to blame - right or wrong - for Shaq and Phil leaving town.  And now, he's having to do re-hab work.  Phil is back.  He's addressing the complaints about him not being the kind of teammate he should be.  He's showing the new Lakers where they should be in the triangle according to Kobe.  (Whether that's the triangle according to Phil and Tex, we'll soon see.)

As for the "why were his assists up" comment?  Let me point out that Iverson's assists are higher than Kobe's...so obviously, Iverson isn't a selfish teammate, either.

Strangest thing, though.  You know what I did once my knee got better?  I went out and played basketball.  After all, the knee was sound.  I admit to favoring it a bit - just to be careful - but I still looked to use it the same way I always had before.

Think Kobe might do the same thing with his behavior?

And for Kobe and Butler being forced to free-lance in the Laker offense at the end of last season?  The Caron Butler I knew in Miami did quite a bit of free-lancing.  That was a drive-and-kick, drive-and-kick, drive-and-kick kind of team.  And as for Bryant, wasn't he one to "free-lance" in the triangle long before last year?

Got to wonder why those players were out of position all the time if Byrant was showing him where he wanted them to be.  Oh, I'm not saying Bryant PURPOSELY showed them the wrong place, because how would I know?  But I am saying that it's amazing how quickly Bryant adopted the triangle once the two people who knew it best - Phil and Tex - were gone.

is this comming from the same JoMaL who knows how every single NBA player feels about Kobe Bryant personally and whether or not they would ever goto the Lakers? Cuz we all know money isnt the most important factor in this league for players when they sign somewhere else right?

Neither JoMal nor anyone else has to know how every single player feels to get a grasp of the situation and form his own opinion as to how HE would react in such a situation.  One can only assume that there is at least a significant percentage of people who would react in the same way.

I wouldn't play with Kobe Bryant (assuming I had a choice).  I wouldn't trust him.  I believe he'd talk down to me.  I believe he'd be more interested in his image than in mine - even to the point of tarnishing mine just to save his own, when he was "caught" in a compromising situation.  And if I were tempted to, I'd remember Karl Malone - who hated Bryant in the All-Star game, played with him and became his friend and spoke highly of him, and then was trashed by Bryant in the media.  And I'd take Karl Malone out to a quiet dinner, my treat, and ask him what he thought of Bryant;  whether he was simply paying lip service like a good teammate would do when he played alongside of Bryant, or whether Bryant was really a good teammate.

However, you're right that money buys a lot of friends.  If you offer me $6 million a year when I'm only worth $3 million a year, I might take it.  How is *THAT* going to help the Lakers' cap situation?

 

[Guest_Randy]

I wouldn't play with Kobe Bryant (assuming I had a choice). I wouldn't trust him. I believe he'd talk down to me. I believe he'd be more interested in his image than in mine - even to the point of tarnishing mine just to save his own, when he was "caught" in a compromising situation. And if I were tempted to, I'd remember Karl Malone - who hated Bryant in the All-Star game, played with him and became his friend and spoke highly of him, and then was trashed by Bryant in the media. And I'd take Karl Malone out to a quiet dinner, my treat, and ask him what he thought of Bryant; whether he was simply paying lip service like a good teammate would do when he played alongside of Bryant, or whether Bryant was really a good teammate.

Joe, you make a lot of good points about Kobe but you fail on the part with Malone.  Malone was the one who broke media silence first -- and it blew up from there.  I'm not saying that Kobe isn't to fault -- he STILL should have kept his mouth shut (when has Karl EVER been able to keep his mouth shut).  Malone and Bryant had become very good friends (the two couples were spending a lot of time together) until Malone made his comments to Kobe.  I think Kobe still struggles in what it means to:  1) have a good friend and 2) be a good friend.  However, while MJ was a great teammate -- nobody on the Bulls was a "good friend" to MJ -- he did his own thing too.

Kobe did a horrible thing -- he cheated on his wife and lied about it.  It drops him a great deal in my eyes -- I will not condone those actions or support them -- ever.  But many have chosen to condemn Kobe to a guilty verdict and I don't know whether Kobe was guilty or not.  There are some things that don't look very good for Kobe -- but the testimony and actions of the accuser leave a WHOLE lot of questions for me.  

As for Kobe on the basketball court, time will see who is correct about whether people will play with Kobe -- but the fact is that we have seen players act incredibly selfish and do incredibly stupid things (Latrell, Artest, Rodman and the list goes on) and players STILL play with them -- because players in the NBA (for the most part) base their careers on a couple of things:  1) earning money; 2) getting to play; and 3) a chance at a championship (probably in that order too).
They didn't have to pay people more money to play with any of those other players -- I think it's interesting that you think they are going to have to pay Kobe more.

PS - as for Kobe being the reason why PJ and Shaq are gone -- you are STILL wrong about that.  They didn't even ASK PJ if he wanted to come back -- Buss didn't want to have to pay him the kind of money PJ would have wanted.  Shaq was demanding the Max and Buss didn't want to pay it -- plain and simple.  You guys keep forgetting that Shaq wasn't in shape -- hadn't been for years and that's just a BAD investment for a stock that is plummeting so why buy more shares?  Did Kobe factor into the equation -- of course, he did -- but the biggest factor was money, plain and simple.  It's like declaring that the civil war was fought for the rights of states for segregation -- that was only one of the factors and it certainly wasn't the largest factor (although one could argue it became the largest factor by the end of the war).  Kobe did factor into the decision but Buss has done what he has done for years (it's the reason West left) -- he makes his own decisions.

And most people forgot that the Lakers were playing fairly decent ball (given their roster) until Kobe got hurt -- and then Odom and the rest of the squad went down with injuries as well.  It was a bad season for the Lakers for injuries.

I don't think there's a "plague" on the Lakers -- and I think we will see that when the Lakers clear cap space.  What I struggle with is that most superstars in the league aren't going to change teams -- it just doesn't happen these days unless they insist on a trade -- so that means the Lakers are going to have to build with stars and through the draft.  Well, the Lakers aren't going to do badly enough to fare well in the draft and most of the FA "stars" are getting WAY overpaid (and it has ZERO to do with Kobe, does it?) and therefore that's going to hurt the Lakers as well.  I think the Lakers have a couple of pieces to trade -- but they are going to have to either hope that someone in the frontcourt realizes their potential or trade Odom for a quality big man (and those are VERY hard to come by, aren't they?).  

[westkoast]

"Got to wonder why those players were out of position all the time if Byrant was showing him where he wanted them to be. Oh, I'm not saying Bryant PURPOSELY showed them the wrong place, because how would I know? But I am saying that it's amazing how quickly Bryant adopted the triangle once the two people who knew it best - Phil and Tex - were gone."

There were a number of reasons.  Guys like Slava could never figure out where to be as the offense started to shift and the ball was moved.  Even under Phil and Tex Slava was often caught in the wrong spot.  Not saying hes on the weak side when hes suppose to be on the strong side....but more like 3-4 steps from where he should be.  3-4 steps doesnt sound like alot but it does mess with spacing.  Kobe use to point Slava and Samaki to the right spot all the time.  This is something hes done for a while....since the first championship just about.

Guys like Chucky Atkins and Lamar Odom had problems running bread and butter triangle plays like the ever so successfull hand off and cut move at the top of the key.  Atkins also had trouble getting to his spot after giving up the ball.  Atkins was often seen just standing in the same spot after giving up the ball...another boo boo in spacing.

Phil Jackson has said many times before that Kobe knows the triangle and thats part of the reason he would get mad when Kobe would get away from it.  He got away from it because that was an on court decision he made, not because he didnt know how to run it.  If anyone on this left over squad knows the triangle its Kobe Bryant.  Much moreso than Kurt Rambis or Brian Shaw who were put in charge of bringing it back.  Im pretty sure Kobe didnt really want to go back to the triangle, especially with knowing the Lakers were struggling and its not something you pick up over the all-star break.  However, I think that was his way of trying to do the right thing and do what hes told by the coaching staff.

[Joe Vancil]

Randy,

For the most part, I agree with you.  However there are a few places where I don't.

There are some things that don't look very good for Kobe -- but the testimony and actions of the accuser leave a WHOLE lot of questions for me.

The actions of the accuser indicate that she's somewhat unstable.  Bryant's defense team did a little TOO GOOD of a job of getting that point across.  The instability of the accuser makes her story a little more believable to me.  Why?  Because so much of it fits the facts in evidence.  She had things to hide, and Bryant had things to hide.  I'm not one to believe that because a person has things to hide that that makes everything they say or do suspect.  Saint and sinner have a lot more in common that most people think.  Airing a person's dirty laundry is generally an attempt to distract.  I tend to push through that.

Translation:  Never put me on a jury.  I look for WHAT IS BELIEVABLE and the motivation behind it.  If I don't see both of those things, I don't inherently trust the information.

As for Kobe on the basketball court, time will see who is correct about whether people will play with Kobe -- but the fact is that we have seen players act incredibly selfish and do incredibly stupid things (Latrell, Artest, Rodman and the list goes on) and players STILL play with them -- because players in the NBA (for the most part) base their careers on a couple of things: 1) earning money; 2) getting to play; and 3) a chance at a championship (probably in that order too).
They didn't have to pay people more money to play with any of those other players -- I think it's interesting that you think they are going to have to pay Kobe more.

The players you named aren't superstars.  None of them has the public eye in the basketball realm the way that players like Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, Duncan, etc. have it.  None of the players you listed are among the elite players.  That means that they aren't the kind of person a player chooses to play with or not play with - because those players could be gone on a moment's notice and the GM wouldn't have any explaining to do to the fans.  Not so with Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, etc.  Kobe is a player who is a team foundation.  He's not going anywhere.  If you sign with the Lakers, the possibility that you stay and Bryant goes is nowhere in your mind.

When people sign with the Lakers, they know they're going to have to play with Kobe.  When people sign with the Pacers, do they know that they're going to have to play with Artest?  No.  They're going to have to play with Jermaine O'Neal.  So disliking Artest isn't the problem you should examine - disliking Jermaine O'Neal would be.  You're comparing apples to oranges - a superstar (Bryant) to people who might be shipped out of town in a heartbeat.

They didn't have to pay people more money to play with any of those other players -- I think it's interesting that you think they are going to have to pay Kobe more.

You ALWAYS have to pay a person more to get him to do a job he doesn't want to do (when he has a choice in the matter).  If players don't WANT to play with Kobe Bryant, you'll have to pay them more to get them to.  The point to argue is whether players will or won't WANT to play with Kobe Bryant.

PS - as for Kobe being the reason why PJ and Shaq are gone -- you are STILL wrong about that.

If Kobe Bryant wanted these guys there, they'd have been there.  Bryant's free agency was looming, and the Laker management was NOT going to lose their future foundation.  Getting rid of Jackson was as much to do with appeasing Bryant as it was to do with saving money.  The evidence?  Jackson is back, and he's being paid tons of bucks to be back - so it's not the money that was the issue.  It was something else.

And Shaq's work ethic is rotten - everyone knows that.  But outside of Los Angeles, pretty much every team wants him.  Why is Los Angeles the exception?  Because of BRYANT.  Sure, O'Neal was incredibly insulting to Jerry Buss with his "give me my money" comment.  But that's par for the course in the league.

Bottom line:  If Bryant wanted these guys to stay, they'd still be Lakers.  They're not (or weren't) - therefore, Kobe didn't want these guys to stay.

What should worry Laker fans for the future is that the only teams built on the strength of guards that have been championship teams are the 1991-4,1996-8 Bulls and the 1989-90 Pistons.  And you could make compelling arguments that the '89-90 Pistons had the best backcourt in the league, and that the Bulls had two superstars in Jordan and Pippen.  Right now, you've got Kobe Bryant.  That more resembles the "got close" teams like Indiana, and only then when Reggie was surrounded with very good talent at all the other spots or the 1980-82 Sixers (yes, I know, Erving was a forward) with Dr. J - and look who all HE had surrounding him!  Only when he got Moses in the post did he win - and that year, Moses was the MVP.  Can Bryant stomach that?  His history says that he can't.

On the bright side, Kobe is still young and has time to smarten up.  But he can't be the player and person he was at the end of the 2004 season and expect success.  He has to grow up.