Did you hear this rumor?

[Guest_Randy]

Stevie Franchise for Lamar Odom!!!  

Okay, as a Laker fan I would just like to say  :eek3 :puke: :

Okay, we have heard a TON of false rumors (SAR to SA, etc.) but this one just tanks!!!  What are the Lakers trying to do -- assembly the biggest team of misfits to play in the league?  

I don't have a problem with the Bynum pick -- IMO, there wasn't anyone available who would really help the Lakers so go ahead and roll the dice and gamble a little.  If it pays off, that's great -- if not, we saved ourselves from another Medvendenko and Brian Cook.  But the trade that is REALLY steaming me and has me questioning the Lakers head office (like I had a lot of confidence in Kupchak anyway) is trading Butler and Atkins for Kwame Brown.  Brown!?!  And you trade away Butler (who was playing MUCH better than Lamar Odom at the end of last season) and our ONLY PG?  Okay, I know Chucky isn't a great PG -- he's a decent back-up but who the heck is going to start PG for the Lakers now?  Now the Lakers are pursuing Tyronne Lue!?!  Okay, Chucky may not be great but he's a LOT better than Tyronne Lue!!!  

I would have MUCH rather seen the Lakers keep Butler and trade Lamar Odom -- for a quality PG (that excludes Franchise, IMO) or a big man.  But if you ARE going to trade Butler for Brown, get rid of a player we DON'T need -- like Medvendenko, George, Jones, Cook -- don't trade your ONLY PG!  

Sorry, just a little Lakers venting  :cry: -- hmm, still don't feel better!  lol

[JoMal]

I actually feel a bit sorry for the famed Laker franchise these days, even though the Kings are also going through a tough personnel shift themselves.

The main problem the Lakers face is really simple. There is no way you are going to attract a quality star NBA player back to Los Angeles to play along side Kobe Bryant. To return to the lofty ranks of NBA championships, you still need that 'other' complementary superstar to split the attention from other teams, and I have to say it looks like no one else who envisions themselves as an upper tier NBA player wants to be shoved aside by Bryant like he tried to do with Shaq. While Odom and Butler are great role players, they lack that higher standard where they occasionally just demand the ball, and you need a another guy who sees himself in that light.

We all do.

Let's face it, Kobe did not want to share the limelight with O'Neal, argueably the best player in the NBA in your championship years, so what chance does anyone else have playing with him? That has to have a carryover affect in the minds of anyone else who thinks they could enjoy Laker sunshine down in SoCal.

I think I mentioned last year that the Lakers are never going to succeed again until you dump Bryant, and I still hold by that. At least my Kings saw the light and traded Webber before he dragged any hopes for Sacramento down into the depths of lottery hell once again.

[Guest_Randy]

I can't disagree MORE with your assessment, JoMal.

There is no way you are going to attract a quality star NBA player back to Los Angeles to play along side Kobe Bryant. To return to the lofty ranks of NBA championships, you still need that 'other' complementary superstar to split the attention from other teams, and I have to say it looks like no one else who envisions themselves as an upper tier NBA player wants to be shoved aside by Bryant like he tried to do with Shaq.

Umm, just HOW do you expect the Lakers to get another complementary superstar to LA?  There are three ways of pulling this off:  1) trade for one (umm, let's see, who do the Lakers have to trade for another superstar -- umm, nobody!); 2) sign them through FA (umm, how do you do this when you don't have any cap space?) and 3) draft them (and you aren't going to do that in today's draft when your highest pick in years is at #14).  


Did you notice Turiaf's statement the other day?  He thanked the Laker organization, Buss and Kobe specifically for their help and support through this time!  Why thank Kobe if he is such a worthless teammate?

Let's face it, Kobe did not want to share the limelight with O'Neal, argueably the best player in the NBA in your championship years, so what chance does anyone else have playing with him? That has to have a carryover affect in the minds of anyone else who thinks they could enjoy Laker sunshine down in SoCal.

You seem to forget what the real deal was -- this wasn't a Kobe decision -- it was a FINANCIAL one!  Shaq wanted a 3 year extension for the MAX (which means over $30 million dollars PER YEAR!!!).  Umm, how many other players are the Lakers going to be able to afford if Kobe is making the Max and Shaq is making over $30?  It's easy math, JoMal -- that's the cap almost just between those two players.  The Lakers still have a couple of other players under contract so they are over the cap and have zero room to sign anyone else.  Kobe and Shaq AREN'T going to win a championship on their own -- just isn't going to happen.  And let's consider what Shaq's incredibly high salary has netted the Lakers over the past few years -- 1) a player who comes into each season more out of shape than the last; 2) a player who isn't interested in working his hardest (either in the off-season or in the regular season); 3) a player who waits until the season begins to have surgery; and 4) a player who is as concerned with his off the court activities than he is his on the court activities.  

IMO, it was this simple with the Lakers -- Shaq wasn't going to help bring the Lakers any more titles -- he was never going to be motivated enough to get in the shape that would have meant and the Lakers role players (that helped bring them their titles like Grant, Shaq, Fisher, Fox, etc.) had retired and the current Lakers role players weren't good enough to help the Lakers to another title.  Since the Lakers have been at the top so long they can't help themselves in the draft and they can't help themselves in FA due to cap restraints.  It spells doom for the Lakers current chances and the only way to hurry up rebuilding is trading Shaq before he is completely done!  This is one decision by the Lakers recently that I have actually LIKED (although I wish they had gotten more for Shaq).  

At least my Kings saw the light and traded Webber before he dragged any hopes for Sacramento down into the depths of lottery hell once again.

Hmm, that's exactly what the Lakers were trying to do by trading Shaq -- funny how you think it's great management by the Kings but horrible management by the Lakers!

[westkoast]

JoMaL dislikes Kobe so he assumes everyone who touches a basketball would never want to play with him.

Isnt the Chris Webber and Shaq situation similar?  Aside from the fact Shaq is 40x the player Webber ever was...it was a similar situation as far as playing level dropping lower and lower.

[Guest_Randy]

JoMal,

I would also add that the Lakers and SacTown chose two different ways to put a team together:

The Lakers chose two superstars to build a team around.
The Kings chose stars to build around.

The Lakers way netted 3 NBA championships -- the Kings way netted what?

When the Kings traded away one of their stars -- it didn't make them a lottery team because they had several stars -- when the Lakers traded away one of their superstars it made them a lottery team.  

Chris Webber was never a superstar -- he was a very talented player who had a great deal more stars on his team but in the end, he never showed he could do the things that make a player a superstar.

[JoMal]

And yet the Kings got at least equal value for Webber in their trade that the Lakers got for O'Neal, considering that Webber was viewed just about univerally as being untradable.
 
I know you guys are all loyal to the Lakers and think in the long run the team will be better off by moving O'Neal when they did, but the fact is, if the Lakers were serious about maintaining their level of play, they would have kept the dominant center instead of the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard, and I mean hardly exceptional because you could get the same production from that position whether it was manned by Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, LeBron James, Allen Iverson.....you get the picture.

With Shaq, even at his price level, you don't think Kobe could have at least brought in a Michael Redd to complement him? Who have the Lakers brought in who can accommodate Kobe in any way near the same way? Isn't that the whole point of building an NBA team? Find components who want to work together and give them some freedom to do so? The Lakers just don't appear to have all that much freedom in that regard with Kobe. Why is that?    

And isn't it fairly clear that what Shaq was doing with his salary demands was essentially putting the Laker management on the line to chose, and Shaq did not care if he stayed or went at that point? He twisted Kupchek up and Buss said trade him.

Did you notice Turiaf's statement the other day? He thanked the Laker organization, Buss and Kobe specifically for their help and support through this time! Why thank Kobe if he is such a worthless teammate?

What does Kobe have to lose being nice to a player who was absolutely no threat to him on the basketball court and would not ever be a superstar in the League? It cost him nothing and made a kid feel good. Hardly the issue I was making. Even Butler and Odom are not who I was referring to. But put him out there with a McGrady or an Iverson and I think you know what I mean.
 

[Guest]

And yet the Kings got at least equal value for Webber in their trade that the Lakers got for O'Neal, considering that Webber was viewed just about univerally as being untradable.

lol -- you call that equal value?  Your opinion of Webber must be a WHOLE lot lower than mine is!!!

if the Lakers were serious about maintaining their level of play, they would have kept the dominant center instead of the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard,

Umm, was Shaq dominant against the Pistons the year before?  Nope, why?  Because he was sooo out-of-shape, Ben Wallace ran his fat butt all over the court.  You must have missed those playoffs.  Shaq proved, at least in the shape he was in, that he was no longer dominant.

the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard

I guess you missed the series in which Kobe kicked SacTown butt, huh?  So do all those players you mentioned kick SacTown's butt?

[westkoast]

"What does Kobe have to lose being nice to a player who was absolutely no threat to him on the basketball court and would not ever be a superstar in the League? It cost him nothing and made a kid feel good. Hardly the issue I was making. Even Butler and Odom are not who I was referring to. But put him out there with a McGrady or an Iverson and I think you know what I mean"

Great examples of  players who are great with other superstars themselves    Not to mention you would never have two shooting guards side by side like that.

[Derek Bodner]

When has Allen ever had a superstar?

Closest thing is a 1 legged chris webber, whom most have already agreed wasn't a superstar when he had 2 legs.

[JoMal]

lol -- you call that equal value?  Your opinion of Webber must be a WHOLE lot lower than mine is!!!
 

Apparently.

At the cost of his contract, at least the Kings now have movable parts to swing other deals. Another three years of Webber's contract would have left the Kings in dire straights indeed.

...the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard.

I guess you missed the series in which Kobe kicked SacTown butt, huh?  So do all those players you mentioned kick SacTown's butt?

As a matter of fact, they do. No defense, remember???

Umm, was Shaq dominant against the Pistons the year before?  Nope, why?  Because he was sooo out-of-shape, Ben Wallace ran his fat butt all over the court.  You must have missed those playoffs.  Shaq proved, at least in the shape he was in, that he was no longer dominant.

I think the Lakers had other problems with the Pistons that "weighed" down LA more then just what foot injury Shaq was suffering from at that time.
 

[JoMal]

Great examples of  players who are great with other superstars themselves    Not to mention you would never have two shooting guards side by side like that.

Yeah, well there are a sub-group of these players out there that look absolutely terrific on paper, and often their teams look great as well, but does it not also seem that a common thread weeds through the careers of these players also?

For years, Kobe's , ummm, issues were mostly camouflaged within the Laker triangle, and the team concept forced on him by Jackson and to a degree, Shaq.

Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum).

I have to guess the big "secret" of all these moves is that the Lakers need to free cap space for future FA signings, like in 2007. Clearly, they want to keep Bryant around, so maybe it does not matter what warm bodies slip in and out of LA for now. In a few years, a good crop of free agents are available, like Yao and Stoudemire.

Unless their current teams do something stupid like sign them to long term deals this summer.

You know, it just is not that easy to sign a quality free agent front line player, like that dominant power forward or center. You usually have to trade for one of those guys, have you noticed? Or even bad ones who burned previous bridges, like Kwame.

Not like a point guard or shooting guard. They seem to change with the winds of fortune more readily.

Kobe? Shaq? Who could be easier to replace through free agency?

[JoMal]

When has Allen ever had a superstar?

Closest thing is a 1 legged chris webber, whom most have already agreed wasn't a superstar when he had 2 legs.

But Adelman sure made him "look" like one in his system for several years. Triple doubles are soooooo overrated, sometimes.

[westkoast]

"For years, Kobe's , ummm, issues were mostly camouflaged within the Laker triangle, and the team concept forced on him by Jackson and to a degree, Shaq. "

JoMaL Kobe assumption #324...:rolleyes:  Yes the team concept was forced on him as Kobe as said numerous times he could win the championship 1 on 5 right?

"Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum)."

Again, your dislike for Kobe forces you to make off the wall comments.  Why is it only Kobe you take sarcastic stabs at because the team has to move players around till they find the right fit.  I guess Jordan should get the same sarcastic shot from you as they moved players around from the day he was drafted till the year they won it all to find the pieces to fit.  Chris Webber?  Eh... they did the same thing.  Shaq? Same thing. They got Kobe to compliment Shaq.  The list goes on and on yet you feel the need to take a stab at having to shift players around to find ones that fit.

"Kobe? Shaq? Who could be easier to replace through free agency?"

Once again you fail to realize something either because your hate is clouding your judgement or you feel like being difficult.  Not sure which.  So replace Kobe for another good 2-guard......who will end up taking over the team in 2-3 years?  What shooting guard is the same caliber of Kobe that would be able to take over the team after Shaq left?  T-Mac??  Steve Francis?? Vince Carter? Who else JoMaL im curious lol.  Id say Dwayne Wade, umm..... uhhh.......Who else could they have got that would compliment Shaq and take them deep in the playoffs beating such teams as the Suns, Sonics, and the Spurs??

[Guest_Randy]

"Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum)."

Actually, from all reports that I have read -- Kobe and Butler were hitting it off and they really liked each other --- there were issues with Kobe and Atkins (aren't there always issues when you lose? -- as a SacTown fan you should understand that!)

[JoMal]

JoMaL Kobe assumption #324...:rolleyes:  Yes the team concept was forced on him as Kobe as said numerous times he could win the championship 1 on 5 right?

 

"Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum)."
So, are you saying that Kobe was really happy all those years playing next to Shaq and sharing the glory? Why is it the perception from the rest of the entire NBA world saw it differently?

Again, your dislike for Kobe forces you to make off the wall comments.  Why is it only Kobe you take sarcastic stabs at because the team has to move players around till they find the right fit.  I guess Jordan should get the same sarcastic shot from you as they moved players around from the day he was drafted till the year they won it all to find the pieces to fit.  Chris Webber?  Eh... they did the same thing.  Shaq? Same thing. They got Kobe to compliment Shaq.  The list goes on and on yet you feel the need to take a stab at having to shift players around to find ones that fit.

Sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but Kobe never has been and never is going to be the next Michael Jordan. LeBron James undoubtedly will fill that void.

By the way, I am glad you finally see my point regarding Shaq and Kobe -"They got Kobe to compliment Shaq." Exactly - It could have been Ray Allen or lets go to the ultimate sidekick - Scotty Pippen. But the one thing you can NEVER say (with a straight face at least) is that Shaq was just Kobe's 'compliment'.

But I do not deny disliking Bryant. What you fail to assimilate from all of this is that I would admire the Lakers so much more as a franchise if they had cut their ties to this prima donna instead of Shaq, who was clearly a pain in many areas but still demanded the serious attention of other teams regardless.  Bryant simply drags the Laker franchise around like a wet rag doll.

Once again you fail to realize something either because your hate is clouding your judgement or you feel like being difficult.  Not sure which.

I am being difficult. Comes with the hate.

So replace Kobe for another good 2-guard......who will end up taking over the team in 2-3 years?  What shooting guard is the same caliber of Kobe that would be able to take over the team after Shaq left?  T-Mac??  Steve Francis?? Vince Carter? Who else JoMaL im curious lol.  Id say Dwayne Wade, umm..... uhhh.......Who else could they have got that would compliment Shaq and take them deep in the playoffs beating such teams as the Suns, Sonics, and the Spurs??

I don't know, westkoast, maybe you just LIKE your team having a constant fractured squad, always taking sides against one another, always voicing "annonymous" complaints about their franchise player, where reporting that he gets along with one of his teammates actually is NEWSWORTHY!!!!!

In the rest of the known world, this looks, smells, and sounds like a dysfunctional team. At the very heart of that dysfunction, one name keeps coming up .... just one. It is NOT Caron Butler, or Brian Grant, or Lamar Odom. It, for some odd reason STOPPED being Shaquille O'Neal once he joined the Miami Heat. But the dysfunction on the Lakers still is being talked about. Oh....and now it is with the NEW players now. You know, the ones brought in to 'compliment' the "name"?

So, westkoast, please explain to all of us, and maybe to yourself as well, why this one name is all that is ever mentioned when locker room problems are ever discussed about the Lakers?

Looky here, "The Name" makes nicey nice with the poor kid drafted in the second round who has the bad heart. He MUST be a great guy to do that, right? Please? It's in the paper, so that must make his image squeaky clean again so he can go back to selling those McDonald hamburgers.

Looky here, "The Name" has made kissy noises with one of his fellow teammates!!!! He IS a team player after all!!!! It's right there in print, so let's all jump back on his band wagon and play patty cake with him just like the old days.

Please. Who between you and I is really the jaded one about Kobe Bryant??