Did you hear this rumor?

[rickortreat]

The bottom line is IT WAS STUPID TO GET RID OF SHAQ.

He made the Lakers championships possible.  He is one of the few players in the league that attract other players because they see him as having a get into the finals free card.

If Peyton and Makone came to play with Kobe why did they leave when Shaq did?  They knew the party was over.

$30 million is worth it for Shaq.  I believe he would have stayed motivated if the Lakers had treated him better.  Their favoritism for Kobe, put Shaq into a funk.  The Lakers should have taken better care of their real franshise player.  That was the problem with the Lakers, they couldn't keep a good thing going.

With a healthy proud Shaq, the team could be on it's way back to a title.  WIth Kobe they are looking at another lottery pick.

In terms of the success for their relative franchises, the score is Shaq 1 (Conference Finals) Kobe & Lakers 0 (lottery pick)

[JoMal]

JoMaL I didnt know Shaq confides in you so much.......to where you know exactly what he was thinking.

He didnt need an excuse to leave.  He wanted to stay.  He didnt want the team to get rid of him in the first place.  It wasnt until he felt disrespected by the organization for even thinking about keeping Kobe over him is when he made a fuss.

Shaq played well and was in shape because his ego was bruised and he had something to prove.

Westkoast, would you please stop doing this? The LA air must be causing your "Delete Hypocracy" key to stick on your keyboard.

Last summer they did not make moves to compliment Kobe. Odom, Butler, and Grant were not brought in because they were pieces that would fit well with Kobe. They were brought in because thats all they could get for Shaq. Mihm and Atkins were sent over in a deal to get rid of Payton

"That's all they could get for Shaq". Which, apparently, you are all right with?? :bs:  

The Lakers brought in players that they knew would not really compliment Kobe?? But since that was "all they could get for Shaq", and they knew before hand that these were pieces that would not fit well with Kobe, but the Lakers made this trade to placate Bryant and really to just rid themselves of the utterly useless blob of a center that "may" not lead them to any more championships because they lost to Detroit??

Am I getting all of this right?

Man, I clearly am NOT Los Angeles Laker fan material!!!!!

Because if this is what you think are the right moves for your team, you guys clearly HAVE been sniffing the smogpipe a wee bit too long.

How can we judge the success of the rebuilding of the LA team in one season?

Usually, it starts early, but drafting Bynum must make it clear even to you that the rebuilding of the Lakers is being viewed by your team's management as going to take several years to do.

May I ask why on earth that should be the case???

Your comments boggle my mind sometimes JoMaL.

If you really want me to boggle your mind, you should meet me in person.

Surely it wasnt just to play with Shaq as Shaq is not the sole reason why the Lakers had success in recent history.

 :rolleyes: (I have acces to the smilies too)  

If the Lakers agreed to pay him 30 million over the next 3 years he would have stayed.   I guess everything that was shown to the NBA world and to the LA media was lies.  Shaq really wanted to leave the organization the whole entire time.

Why believe only some of the stuff the media prints, but disbelieve the rest? I am sure if the Lakers had declared Shaq their franchise player instead of Kobe, they could have kept him.  But Shaq did not act like he wanted to stay, at least to me he didn't.

[Reality]

So you have an aging 32 year old with no heart or work ethic and a 26 year old top 7 player in the league, with nothing but heart and an exceptional work ethic.  The 32 year old demands a two year extension for 60mil and threatens the owner.  The 26 year old wants a max contract.  Let's see .... hmmmm ... this is a real tough decision .... So Reality, here's my prediction ....0 - 0. 

Neither one of these prima-dona donkey's will see another championship in the next three years.  Shaq with Miami had their chance this year and they couldn't pull it off.  Next year Shaq is a year older, a year fatter, one year less motivated (if this is even possible), and Miami's chances are slim to none.  They'll lose a couple of roll players, Keyon Dooling, Damon Jones.  Eddie Jones will disappear in the playoffs like he has every year of his career with the exception of last seasons anomaly (sorry Eddie, I love you, but its true). 

Here's the difference, in 3 years, Kobe will only be 29 and with any luck,....

msc,

I wish you would weigh in more often.
Completely agree that these two are/were both prima donnas.
With all the cashe they make off the court, combined with all the cash they made on the court prior to 2004-5, why in the name of all that is good could they not have come together and said "Lets take 10 million apice, leave the Lakers money to get us some other good players and keep the title contention alive."

I know I know the board has spoken ad nauseum, multimillionaires taking less money for a better chance at a title is unthinkable.  Could you imagine the Lakers tho msc.

Well they didn't.  

Certainly the Laker hope is that Kobe stays healthy and FAs/other players are added thus 2007-8-9 title contention can be obtained.

Here is a point tho, and rickertreat you and i concur on this:  It's possible Shaq could have been just as motivated and gotten in just as good a shape had the Lakers jettisoned Kobe and made Shaq their chosen one.

Could Shaq have been just as fueled by his fat ego then needing to prove the Lakers with himself and minus Kobe were better.  Thus last years Lakers doing just as well as last years Shaqs Heat?  Kobe to the Clips for Maggett and ??  Many other sign n trade possibilities.

msc, Laker and other posters?

[Ted]

If I were a player, there's only one thing that would keep me from going to LA . . .

It's not that Kobe is THE MAN and runs the show. He plays harder than anyone, works harder, is in the best condition, has the most skills, and busts his butt even if he is sick or injured. I could handle being "his boy" based on his on-the-court game and his off-the-court work ethic.

But there's one thing that trumps all. Kobe is a cowardly backstabber. Bringing up Shaq's name when being questioned by the police . . .

that was low, LOW, LOW!!!! :puke:  

[westkoast]

JoMaL...just the fact you think the Lakers got Odom, Butler, and Grant to compliment Kobe and not because that is really all they could get for Shaq because they didnt want him in the WC keeps me from wanting to continue with you at all.  Those guys were not brought in to compliment Kobe.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is eating a l ttle bit too much of fungus that grows in the cow patty fields.

For the last and final time JoMaL...the trade was not made solely to please Kobe.  There was alot of other things that played into it....

1) Shaq wanted a large extension on his contract at the end of his career.

2) Shaq thought he deserved a raise but did not do more work to warrant one.

3) Shaq took shots at the owner of the team (you know the guy who has the final say)

4) Shaq has 3 or so years left in this league (save injury) Kobe has quite a bit more as he isnt even 30 years old yet (save injury).

5) Shaq has a history of injuries and that is not going to improve as he gets older

6) Jerry Buss likes a faster, more uptempo game.  What the Lakers were doing failed 2 years in a row.  Jerry felt it was time to try something else.  This came from Buss' mouth directly.

7) Shaq was not motivated in LA to get into better playing shape.  



Can you please point me to a job where I could insult my boss because I wanted a raise one year even though I do nothing to try to improve my work ethic?

[msc]

Reality wrote: Could Shaq have been just as fueled by his fat ego then needing to prove the Lakers with himself and minus Kobe were better. Thus last years Lakers doing just as well as last years Shaq's Heat? Kobe to the Clips for Maggett and ?? Many other sign n trade possibilities.

msc, Laker and other posters?

Personally, I don't believe Shaq would have been half as motivated had the Lakers jettisoned Kobe instead as he was in Miami.  Everyone (apparently) seems to believe that Kobe was the only reason Shaq left.  I'd argue he was a very small influence on why he left.  Prior to the 2004 season, Shaq wanted an extension and was very verbal about it.  Jerry Buss ignored him.  Then at a pre-season game in Hawaii, after a dunk, Shaq ran down the court and yelled at Buss, "Give me my f***ing money!".  This was the start of it all.  

BTW, what is all this "Shaq's ego was hurt b/c they put their faith in Kobe", "Laker management dissed Shaq by siding with Kobe".  I thought this was the biggest, baddest, Superman on the planet.  Did everyone have to coddle Shaq in order to make sure he worked out and tried his hardest.  What happened to pride?  And if you have no pride, what about trying your hardest b/c you're being paid millions to do so by your employer and it's the right thing to do?  It's laughable to me that many here are putting it all on Kobe and defending Shaq's lack of commitment over his last two seasons in LA.  That was the reason they hated each other people .... Kobe had no respect for Shaq because of his lack of work ethic and big-baby Shaq was threatened by someone actually calling him out.  The nerve!  

No one will argue Shaq’s dominance during the 2000-2003 Championship runs.  Remember when Shaq was always a threat to put up 40 and 20 during those games?  I do.  Then, when teams would focus all of their energy on Shaq, Kobe would slash up their D and drop 40+ on them (see Sac in 2000, 2001, and San Antone in 2001, 2002).  That was the winning 1-2 combo that resulted in 3 championships.  When was the last time Shaq had a monster game like that?  The Shaq of the last three years is lucky to have a 20/10 game.  Is he still the biggest force to be reckoned with in the league?  Yes, but no where near the force he WAS.  Even a slimmed down Shaq this year wasn't all that impressive.  Oh yeah, and he always seems to have some nagging injury, errr excuse, err I mean, injury.  Do you think these nagging "injuries" have anything to do with his inability to get and stay in shape?  I do.  Mark my words, he'll have one again next year.

So why on God's green earth would you mortgage your entire franchise for maybe 2 - 3 years of a declining Shaq?  I thank Dr. Buss everyday for making the trade.  It was a tough decision, but the right one.  They weren't winning Championships anymore with Shaq and Kobe.  Shoot, they brought in two future hall of famers to play with them and they STILL couldn't get it done.  And no one was more responsible for losing to the Pistons than Shaq.  He played like a slow, fat, un-motivated un-interested waste-of-flesh-and-bones in that series.  It was embarrassing.  I was embarrassed for him.  And you want the Lakers to give him 2 years, beyond his year left at 60mil?  No thanks, he's Miami's financial burden now.  They can have him for his geritol years.  They can give him a 5-year deal .... that's really smart  :crazy:

rickortreat wrote: The bottom line is IT WAS STUPID TO GET RID OF SHAQ.

He made the Lakers championships possible. He is one of the few players in the league that attract other players because they see him as having a get into the finals free card.

rickortreat, I couldn't disagree with you more that it was stupid to get rid of Shaq, as you can tell by my post(s) above.  Based on your statement, Miami went to the finals this year?  I'm confused, you must have meant 'conference finals'.

rickortreat wrote: In terms of the success for their relative franchises, the score is Shaq 1 (Conference Finals) Kobe & Lakers 0 (lottery pick)

Again, couldn't disagree more.  Last time I checked getting to the Conference Finals doesn't mean anything.  That and $1.50 might get you a cup of coffee.  Maybe in Sacramento or Dallas this is considered a victory, but in Los Angeles, Boston, Detroit, Chicago, and I thought Philly (but your statement is making me wonder) its win it all or nothing.  We don't hang our Conference Championship banners up in Staples like they do at Arco ... there isn't room for all of them.  And Miami didn't even win one of those ... so I'm not sure how it’s considered 1 for Shaq.  All this on top of the fact that Shaq guaranteed the people of Miami a title ... sad.  And when you think about it (I think westkoast astutely pointed this out in this thread somewhere) Shaq didn't get Miami that much farther than they went in the playoffs the year before.  Considering the expectations and the personnel he had around him, Shaq was more of a failure than Kobe last season, IMO.  
 

[WayOutWest]

Regarding the score, in the end all that matters is who has the most rings.  Right now Shaq and Kobe are tied at 3, we'll see who wins that contest.

Right now Russel leads the pack.
Kareem and Jordan didn't even come close, doubt anyone will.

[Skandery]

Score after one season 0 - 0.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the score 2 - 0 in favor of Shaq (Miami did win both times, if I'm not mistaken).

I know that me, my wife, and parent's in law watching on Christmas as Kobe dropped 700 points and LOST!

Odom, Butler, and Grant

Alright, I've heard just about enough of how much these players suck, and how they don't fit Kobe, etc.  As WK has said this team along with Wade took a stacked Indy team to Game 7 of the second round.  Why couldn't this team along with Kobe make the playoffs to have the chance to take a team to Game 7 in the second round.  Was Wade (a rookie) last year that much better than the hard-working, multi-talented, skills unlimited, muckety-muck, godsend of a player that is The Kobe?

And Westkoast, the parentheses next to the years were simply denoting that he was a member of the roster.  They weren't in anyway to demean the performance and hardwork of Robert Horry, Rick Fox, or any other member of those Laker rosters.  

As the last six years are concerned if Shaquille O'Neal happens to be on your roster (in any capacity), your team has made the Finals four of those times, and was 1/2 a quarter away from another one.  Ain't bad odds if ya ask me

[JoMal]

JoMaL...just the fact you think the Lakers got Odom, Butler, and Grant to compliment Kobe and not because that is really all they could get for Shaq because they didnt want him in the WC keeps me from wanting to continue with you at all.  Those guys were not brought in to compliment Kobe.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is eating a l ttle bit too much of fungus that grows in the cow patty fields.

If Shaq is so washed up, why would the Lakers care if he played in the WC instead of the EC? Could it be because they knew he would have that motivation the Lakers could not provide while he was still on the team if they did something like that and they did not want to address that issue four times each season?

And I clearly know those players were not brought in to compliment Kobe. Last season proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. But then, you are picking on an issue that I really don't care about. My issue is that the Lakers are going to have trouble attracting players who MIGHT be complimentary because, well, of Kobe and how he may be getting a reputation as not the best teammate to have.

The issue, westkoast, is about Kobe being able to help the Lakers in recruiting. You know, like Shaq could do. That sort of thing.

Now, are you going to run off again on a tangent issue over that comment once again? Remember now. Think about players making a decision of their own free will, not traded players, who usually have little to say about where they are sent.

For the last and final time JoMaL...the trade was not made solely to please Kobe.  There was alot of other things that played into it....

1) Shaq wanted a large extension on his contract at the end of his career.

2) Shaq thought he deserved a raise but did not do more work to warrant one.

3) Shaq took shots at the owner of the team (you know the guy who has the final say)

4) Shaq has 3 or so years left in this league (save injury) Kobe has quite a bit more as he isnt even 30 years old yet (save injury).

5) Shaq has a history of injuries and that is not going to improve as he gets older

6) Jerry Buss likes a faster, more uptempo game.  What the Lakers were doing failed 2 years in a row.  Jerry felt it was time to try something else.  This came from Buss' mouth directly.

7) Shaq was not motivated in LA to get into better playing shape.

Forget all of that about why Shaq did or did not force a trade.

Think about why shouldn't LA trade Kobe now before it is too late?

Can you please point me to a job where I could insult my boss because I wanted a raise one year even though I do nothing to try to improve my work ethic?

Focus. Why should the Lakers keep Kobe around if he may not get the players needed to actually improve the team to a place where you once were? Is he really the only guy in the NBA who the Lakers could center their team around, or has his time in LA run its course and they should try something else.

And please, let's just forget about Shaq. All he is now to LA is a distraction from the point I was originally making about the Laker keeping Kobe.

[Joe Vancil]

Anyone who could "thank Dr. Buss everyday for making the trade" of Shaquille O'Neal is kdding themselves about O'Neal's true value.

O'Neal's value is determined by his MOTIVATION.  His MOTIVATION in Los Angeles his last two years was crap - I admit that.  SO TELL THE COACHING STAFF TO FIX IT, the same way you would if this was a rookie with a flaw in his shot.

If I'm Kupchak, I re-sign Kobe while Shaq is still there.  Why?  I intend to give the team to Kobe.  I intend to massage his ego so that that way, he's not sending Shaq out of town - he's LORDING OVER HIM.  You tell me - which would you rather have - a coaching staff talking about how a sure-fire Hall-Of-Famer is subservient to you, or writers writing about "what could have been."  I'd point out to Kobe that when Magic took over for Kareem, he didn't ship the Big Fella out of town.  He didn't even take the title of "Cap" away from Kareem.  But with the situation, and O'Neal's often lackadaisical approach, OUR coach just happens to feel that we need to take away that captain title from Shaq and everyone else, and give it to Kobe.

And after Kobe inks his deal, I'm going to lay down the law to Shaq.  It's Kobe's team.  Kobe will get to have input on the coach, but you won't.  Kobe will be on the cover of our media guide, and you won't.  And every step of the way, I'm going to be in Shaq's face saying, "Kobe, Kobe, Kobe."  I might even "accidentally" call Shaq "Kobe" in our conversation!

And then, I'm going to say, "But I'm on your side, Shaq.  I think you're the better player, and the only thing that deserves the title of 'big and fat' is your contract.  And it'll be easy to get it for you, if you can take the team back by getting into the best shape of your career, and bringing it to the floor the way that nobody else can."

When all is said and done, Shaq and Kobe will absolutely despise me.  Big deal.  They're together, and they're each focused on winning - albeit for their own selfish, petty reasons.  I can live with that.

 

[Reality]

Score after one season 0 - 0.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the score 2 - 0 in favor of Shaq (Miami did win both times, if I'm not mistaken).

 

We're talking season-playoffs combo, with of course hugest emphasis on playoffs.
It's only been one season at this point.

 

[msc]

Joe Vancil wrote: Anyone who could "thank Dr. Buss everyday for making the trade" of Shaquille O'Neal is kdding themselves about O'Neal's true value.

I'm not kidding myself about his value at all.  I just don't think that he is worth $30mil/year for three more years in the twilight of his career.  The way I see it, the Lakers could start rebuilding now (i.e., last year) or they can start in three years when Shaq's extension expires.  Why not start now?

Look, IMO, Wade was the best guard in the league last season in terms of all around game.  Better than Kobe, better than Nash, better than everyone.  I love Wade.  I love his game, I love his attitude.  I like him better than Kobe.  If Shaq can't win it with Kobe (he wasn't able to the last two years they were together), he certainly should be able to win it with Wade, assuming Kobe is the "weak link" in the relationship.  Well, he went to Miami, Wade had an incredible season, and they couldn't get past Detroit.  What gives?  Here's what gives: Shaq is a shell of his former self ... he is on the downside of his career.  A guy who used to routinely put up 40-20 games in the playoffs now puts up 20/10 games.  IT IS NOT WORTH SIGNING HIM FOR $30 MIL/YEAR AT THIS POINT IN HIS CAREER, WHEN EACH YEAR HE IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE.   I will stand by that statement.  I believe I have a great grasp of his value that is why I agree with Buss's decision.  It didn't pay off for Miami and I will bet they never see a championship with Shaq.  Last year was their year to do it.  It takes a lot of stars to align (no pun intended) to get to the NBA Finals.  A team must avoid injury, have role players step up at crucial times, buy in to the coaches system, get a little lucky here and there, etc., etc.   Shaq has shown he can't play a full season for what, 5 or so years now? So next year he's going to be in shape, play a whole season, and step up in the playoffs?!?!?  I don't see it.  He hasn't done it in three years, he won't do it now.  Face it.  Shaq has lost his edge.  Before he had won a title, he had an edge, he had something to prove, he had a drive.  I witnessed it first hand.  Once he won three, the monkey was off of his back and he didn't have that same edge.  Face it, he's lost that lovin' feeling, it's long gone, gone, gone.  Whoa whoa whoa.  Best of luck to Miami, but I'm glad we got rid of him when we did.  I was calling for the trade of Shaq before it ever happened.  Get something for him while you can, he's done.  

Joe, you're idea to sign Kobe and have a heart felt talk with both of them is beautiful.  I wish it could have worked out that way.  They tried that for two years and the two apparently could not co-exist.  I put the blame on both of their shoulders evenly for being egomaniacal brats.  But moving forward, I'm going to look long-term and keep the 26 year old who's still getting better over the 32 year old who is a shadow of his former self.  You can call me crazy, or say I don't understand basketball or the business of basketball, but it's a no brainer to me.  Look, I don't even like Kobe much as a person.  I like Shaq off the court.  I love what he does in the community, I like that he's light and jovial with the media.  But my ultimate allegiance is with the Lakers, not one individual player and I believe Dr. Buss made the right decision.  I would have done the same thing.  Maybe we're both wrong, but Miami didn't bulldoze it's way to a Championship this year, so I'm not convinced we were wrong yet.    

[westkoast]

Think about why shouldn't LA trade Kobe now before it is too late?

Heres a pretty decent reason.........CUZ THERE IS NO ONE THEY CAN GET IN RETURN FOR HIM.  Who possibly can they trade for Kobe and get the same player back in return?  Ill start the timer for when you come back with a half way reasonable reply.


Focus. Why should the Lakers keep Kobe around if he may not get the players needed to actually improve the team to a place where you once were? Is he really the only guy in the NBA who the Lakers could center their team around, or has his time in LA run its course and they should try something else.

JoMaL..please put your thinking cap on today.  Since when is Kobe the GM and in charge of recruiting new talent.  I guess *IF* is very important in Sac-town.  You dont know, do you?     They've had one season where they didnt make the playoffs.  Its been ONE season JoMaL.  Not 3 not 5.  One.  A little quick to judge arent we?  I mean its painfully obvious you are throwing out logic because of your hate for Kobe.

Did you ever think players will decide to come to LA because its a big media outlet and because the Lakers could offer them good money?  In a league filled with players who only care about a paycheck im sure the first thought in their mind is 'I wonder if Kobe will hang out with me'

 

[JoMal]

Heres a pretty decent reason.........CUZ THERE IS NO ONE THEY CAN GET IN RETURN FOR HIM.  Who possibly can they trade for Kobe and get the same player back in return?  Ill start the timer for when you come back with a half way reasonable reply.




 

Okay, you want a half way decent answer? Here you go:

It doesn't matter.

This is a sample of addition by subtraction. I am suggesting you need to get rid of Kobe and let him try his luck elsewhere so the Lakers can go back to a semblance of normality and can attract players who want to come there.

Your situation is clearly in a rebuilding mold anyway for the next few years, so expectations of winning is not likely. But having a clean slate to do much is hindered by Bryant still being there.

Besides, you traded Shaq for less then he was worth. Kobe could bring at least a comparable deal, maybe better.

JoMaL..please put your thinking cap on today.  Since when is Kobe the GM and in charge of recruiting new talent.  I guess *IF* is very important in Sac-town.  You dont know, do you?     They've had one season where they didnt make the playoffs.  Its been ONE season JoMaL.  Not 3 not 5.  One.  A little quick to judge arent we?  I mean its painfully obvious you are throwing out logic because of your hate for Kobe.

Did you ever think players will decide to come to LA because its a big media outlet and because the Lakers could offer them good money?  In a league filled with players who only care about a paycheck im sure the first thought in their mind is 'I wonder if Kobe will hang out with me'

Kobe should concern you more for how he works with his teammates as much as anything else. I am just not seeing much enthusiasm from anyone coming to the Lakers these days, and it would seem it should be for those reasons you stated as well as the history.

And I beg to differ about his input with trades and such. Teams quite often consult with their key players when playing acquisitions, and in Bryant's case, that would definitely be factored in. I heard he was asked prior to the Brown trade that involved his best friend on the team, and he said it was fine by him.  

[Guest]

Kobe should concern you more for how he works with his teammates as much as anything else. I am just not seeing much enthusiasm from anyone coming to the Lakers these days, and it would seem it should be for those reasons you stated as well as the history.

And I beg to differ about his input with trades and such. Teams quite often consult with their key players when playing acquisitions, and in Bryant's case, that would definitely be factored in. I heard he was asked prior to the Brown trade that involved his best friend on the team, and he said it was fine by him.

What do you expect Kobe to say -- that he doesn't want Brown because it cost him the guy he likes best on the Lakers?  Let's see, on one hand, Kobe is supposed to allow management to make the decisions and on the other hand he is supposed to pitch a fit when he doesn't like a trade.  Because Kobe says it's "fine by him" that means that he doesn't care?  Kobe doesn't make the decisions, does he?  He is trying to be a team player and you even rack him for that!  Kinda sounds like Kobe couldn't make you happy no matter WHAT he does!!!  

What I think is GREAT is that you seem to know the thoughts of every NBA player -- nobody in the league wants to come play with Kobe!  Wow, you have surveyed every NBA player and know that as fact, I'm impressed JoMal.

Why don't you admit that your comments are based on your own hypothesis rather than fact.  We don't KNOW that nobody wants to come play with Kobe because at this point, nobody CAN come play with Kobe.  There isn't the opportunity because the Lakers are over the cap and have very little trade bait to interest teams.  I have yet to hear that "so-and-so" team was discussing a trade but "said" player refused to go to the Lakers because he didn't want to play with Kobe.  

So do you KNOW that other players in the NBA don't want to go play with Kobe -- or do you just THINK that other players don't want to go play with Kobe?  Notice you don't hear Vlade talking about the fact that he can't stand Kobe -- that he didn't want to play with Kobe.  I think you need to separate fact from fiction -- the fact is something, at this point, that we don't know -- the fiction is what is spewing from your posts.