Hey Ted

[Lurker]

Especially when his children today face so many new challenges. I still haven't found a scripture on Internet porn. Still looking.  

 

Still looking at the scriptures or the internet porn?

 :ph34r:
 

[WayOutWest]

Moses, Moroni, and the Salamander

Martin Harris' letter of 23 October 1830 to Wm. W. Phelps (published in Church News, 28 April 1985) has dismayed some people. Harris talks of a "white salamander" which was "transfigured" into "the spirit" otherwise known to us as the Angel Moroni. We may never know whether this description was an embellishment on the part of Harris, or an allegory employed by Joseph Smith, or whether Moroni somehow chose to appear to Joseph out of, or in the form of, a salamander. But since Phelps joined the Church after reading Harris' letter, he must not have found the allusion to a salamander very disconcerting. In fact, as new research is showing, the salamander has been thought for millennia to have supernatural and extraordinary powers. Consider the following:

1. Well into the 19th century, it was commonly believed that salamanders "lived in or were able to endure, fire." Numerous references to this wide-spread belief are listed in the Oxford English Dictionary under "salamander." Long before, even Aristotle -- of all people -- reported: "The salamander shows that certain animals are naturally proof against fire, for it is said to extinguish a flame by passing through it." Historia Animalium V.19, 552b.

2. Indeed, salamanders were thought to be "generated in fire." The great Rabbi Akiba held to this view, in Hullin 127a. Other rabbis, including the noted Rashi, debated whether the fire had to be heated for seven days, seven years or seventy years to produce a salamander that would appear walking and flying in the midst of the fire. (Should we compare Dan. 3:19ff.?)

3. Accordingly, salamanders were often associated with spirits. In Germany, salamanders were thought to be "Wetter-propheten" (weather-prophets), and "Hausgeister" (house-protector spirits). German churchdoor locks and bolts, as well as ovens and fireplaces, had salamander insignia on them. Handwoerterbuch des deutschen Aberglaubens (Berlin, 1934), 6:458. In the Middle Ages, the salamander denoted "a being possessing the shape of a man whose element was the fire, or who at least could live in that element." Chambers's Encycl. (1875), 8:436. Earth, air, fire and water, each had a spirit -- for fire, it was the salamander.

4. Moreover, salamanders were associated with the voice of God and with the Holy Ghost! From Midrash Ex. Rabbah XV.28 on Exodus 12, we find that the rabbis of the 9th Century A.D. and before believed that "God had to show Moses on Mt. Sinai was the salamander: "He stirred up the fire and showed him the salamander, for it [Ps. 29:7] says: The voice of the Lord heweth out flames of fire." In 1841, the baptistry of Winchester Cathedral in England bore the figure of a salamander, alluding to the words, "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire." G. A. Poole, Churches: Their Struct. Arrang. & Decor. 9,2.

5. Since the salamander was said to endure fire, it was thought to protect others against burning, including hell-fire. The rabbis remarked that hell would not harm scribes, since they were "all fire, like the Torah; and if flames cannot hurt one who is anointed with salamander blood, still less can they injure the scribes." Jewish Encycl. (1905) 10:646, citing the Talmud Hagiga 27a. A similar popular belief seems to stand behind Austrian lore relating the salamander to the atoning suffering of Christ. The Zohar (ii. 211b) mentions protective garments of salamander skin.

6. Not far removed from these ideas about salamanders are ideas depicted by the biblical phrase "fiery flying serpents" Were these "salamanders"? A brass model of this reptile symbolized Jesus himself, who commanded Moses to put it up on a pole, so the people who had been bitten could look to it and live (Num. 21:6-9; 1 Ne. 17:41; cf. Is. 14:29; 30:6; 2 Ne. 25:20). The Hebrew word here for "fiery" is saraf. This strongly suggests a further connection with the six-winged seraphim (Is. 6:2-6) and the nearly identical cherubin (Ezek. 1 & 10; Rev. 4:6-8). Cf. Egyptian srf ("griffon"). Were their six wings and abstraction from the six, red, wing-like, external gills of salamanders?

7. Eternal life and resurrection were also symbolized by the salamander. The Arabic word for both the salamander and the phoenix, which could die and rise again out of its own ashes, was samandal. Se Al-Jahiz, Kitab al-Hayawan (9th c.) 5:309-10 (Harun edition); S. Nasser, Intro. to Islamic Cosmology, 2d ed., 273 n. 29.

8. People too were sometimes called salamanders. Shakespeare calls a fiery-red face a "salamander." Henry IV, III, iii, 58. Likewise called were soldiers who courageously exposed themselves to fire in battle. Salamanders appear in medieval and renaissance coats of arms, including that of Francis I, King of France. Thomas Brooks in 1670 wrote, "God's people are true salamanders, the live best in the fire of afflictions." Works 6:441.

9. Not all salamanders were good, however. The poisonous ones are "spectacularly colored" with bright spots on a dark background. Encycl. Brit. (15th ed.), Macrop. 18:1087. They were linked with evil spirits. But the non-poisonous good ones were white or grey-brown.

Obviously, much has changed culturally since 1830. Some of us may wince at the suggestion that an angel of God should be associated with, or described as, a salamander. But to people then, no image or description would better fit the appearance of a brillant white spiritual being, once a valiant soldier, now dwelling in a blazing pillar of light, shockingly pure and glorious, speaking with the voice of God while flying though the midst of Heaven, then the salamander! Moroni should be flattered. (JS-H 1:30-32; History of the Church 4:536).

Still, it was predictable that people would not understand this. The Lord apparently knew this would happen. In 1829, God commanded Harris not to try to describe things which he had not personally witnessed: "And I the Lord command him, my servant Martin Harris, that he shall say no more unto them concerning these things, except he shall say: I have seen them, and they have been shown unto me by the power of God; and these are the words which he shall say." D&C 5:26. Harris seems to have overstepped his commission here when he wrote to Phelps in 1830.

Further research is still underway. Glenn Clark's recent "Pillars of My Faith" presentation at the Sunstone Theological Symposium (May 18, 1985) covers several of these points and will soon appear in Sunstone. In the end, this research may lead to a less "modern" view of many symbolically meaningful religious events: a burning bush; a talking ass; a flaming sword; a tempting snake; the Lord with seven horns and seven eyes; a descending dove; and a salamander angel.

(FAIR USE COPYING NOTICE: These pages may be reproduced and used, without alteration, addition or deletion, for any nonpecuniary or non-publishing purpose, without permission.)

[WayOutWest]

Is this correct Ted?

Mormonism began when Joseph Smith, a young man in western New York, was spurred by a Christian revival where he lived in 1820 to pray to God for guidance as to which church was true. In answer to his prayers he was visited by God the Father and God the Son, two separate beings, who told him to join no church because all the churches at that time were false, and that he, Joseph, would bring forth the true church. This event is called "The First Vision."


In 1823 Joseph had another heavenly visitation, in which an angel named Moroni told him of a sacred history written by ancient Hebrews in America, engraved in an Egyptian dialect on tablets of gold and buried in a nearby hill. Joseph was told it was the history of the ancient peoples of America, and that Joseph would be the instrument for bringing this record to the knowledge of the world. Joseph obtained these gold plates from the angel in 1827, and translated them into English by the spirit of God and the use of a sacred instrument accompanying the plates called the "Urim and Thummim." The translation was published in 1830 as The Book of Mormon.


The Book of Mormon is a religious and secular history of the inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere from about 2200 BC to about 421 AD. It tells the reader that the American Indians are descended from three groups of immigrants who were led by God from their original homes in the Near East to America. One group came from the Tower of Babel, and two other groups came from Jerusalem just before the Babylonian Captivity, about 600 BC. They were led by prophets of God who had the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is thus preserved in their history, the Book of Mormon. Many of the descendants of these immigrants were Christians, even before Christ was born in Palestine, but many were unbelievers. Believers and unbelievers fought many wars, the last of which left only degenerate unbelievers as survivors, who are the ancestors of the American Indians. The most important event during this long history was the visit of Jesus Christ to America, after his crucifixion, when he ministered to (and converted) all the inhabitants.


Joseph Smith was directed by revelation from God to reestablish ("restore") the true church, which he did in 1830. He was visited several times by heavenly messengers, who ordained him to the true priesthood. He continued to have revelations from God to guide the church and to give more knowledge of the Gospel. Many of these revelations are published in the Doctrine and Covenants.


Joseph Smith and his followers were continually persecuted for their religious beliefs, and driven from New York State to Ohio, then to Missouri, then to Illinois, where Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844 by a mob, a martyr to his beliefs. The church was then led by Brigham Young, Joseph's successor, to Utah, where the Mormons settled successfully.


The LDS church is led today by the successors of Joseph Smith. The present president of the church is a "prophet, seer and revelator" just as Joseph Smith was, and guides the members of the church through revelations and guidance from God.


The modern LDS church is the only true church, as restored by God through Joseph Smith. Other churches, derived from the early Christian church, are in apostasy because their leaders corrupted the scriptures, changed the ordinances of the original church, and often led corrupt lives, thus losing their authority.


By accepting baptism into the LDS church you take the first step necessary toward your salvation and your ultimate entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (the "Celestial Kingdom").
 

[WayOutWest]

I also dug up:

The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?    NOTES


Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later.   NOTES


In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.    NOTES


Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.  NOTES


The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."   NOTES


Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (apparently a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.   NOTES


The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.    NOTES


The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.  NOTES


Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race.   NOTES


Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.   NOTES


Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.   NOTES


Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet   NOTES. The most recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide.   NOTES


The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day.    NOTES  Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the 150 years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.    NOTES


Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

-  The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);   NOTES
-  the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
-  Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);   NOTES
-  the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);   NOTES
-  Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);   NOTES

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.   NOTES

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.   NOTES

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.   NOTES


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.    NOTES


Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."    NOTES


Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history.   NOTES

 

[WayOutWest]

It's been a while since I discussed Mormon stuff so I dug around and found that stuff here:

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

[Ted]

Moses, Moroni, and the Salamander

Martin Harris' letter of 23 October 1830 to Wm. W. Phelps (published in Church News, 28 April 1985) has dismayed some people. Harris talks of a "white salamander" which was "transfigured" into "the spirit" otherwise known to us as the Angel Moroni. We may never know whether this description was an embellishment on the part of Harris, or an allegory employed by Joseph Smith, or whether Moroni somehow chose to appear to Joseph out of, or in the form of, a salamander. But since Phelps joined the Church after reading Harris' letter, he must not have found the allusion to a salamander very disconcerting. In fact, as new research is showing, the salamander has been thought for millennia to have supernatural and extraordinary powers. Consider the following:

1. Well into the 19th century, it was commonly believed that salamanders "lived in or were able to endure, fire." Numerous references to this wide-spread belief are listed in the Oxford English Dictionary under "salamander." Long before, even Aristotle -- of all people -- reported: "The salamander shows that certain animals are naturally proof against fire, for it is said to extinguish a flame by passing through it." Historia Animalium V.19, 552b.

2. Indeed, salamanders were thought to be "generated in fire." The great Rabbi Akiba held to this view, in Hullin 127a. Other rabbis, including the noted Rashi, debated whether the fire had to be heated for seven days, seven years or seventy years to produce a salamander that would appear walking and flying in the midst of the fire. (Should we compare Dan. 3:19ff.?)

3. Accordingly, salamanders were often associated with spirits. In Germany, salamanders were thought to be "Wetter-propheten" (weather-prophets), and "Hausgeister" (house-protector spirits). German churchdoor locks and bolts, as well as ovens and fireplaces, had salamander insignia on them. Handwoerterbuch des deutschen Aberglaubens (Berlin, 1934), 6:458. In the Middle Ages, the salamander denoted "a being possessing the shape of a man whose element was the fire, or who at least could live in that element." Chambers's Encycl. (1875), 8:436. Earth, air, fire and water, each had a spirit -- for fire, it was the salamander.

4. Moreover, salamanders were associated with the voice of God and with the Holy Ghost! From Midrash Ex. Rabbah XV.28 on Exodus 12, we find that the rabbis of the 9th Century A.D. and before believed that "God had to show Moses on Mt. Sinai was the salamander: "He stirred up the fire and showed him the salamander, for it [Ps. 29:7] says: The voice of the Lord heweth out flames of fire." In 1841, the baptistry of Winchester Cathedral in England bore the figure of a salamander, alluding to the words, "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire." G. A. Poole, Churches: Their Struct. Arrang. & Decor. 9,2.

5. Since the salamander was said to endure fire, it was thought to protect others against burning, including hell-fire. The rabbis remarked that hell would not harm scribes, since they were "all fire, like the Torah; and if flames cannot hurt one who is anointed with salamander blood, still less can they injure the scribes." Jewish Encycl. (1905) 10:646, citing the Talmud Hagiga 27a. A similar popular belief seems to stand behind Austrian lore relating the salamander to the atoning suffering of Christ. The Zohar (ii. 211b) mentions protective garments of salamander skin.

6. Not far removed from these ideas about salamanders are ideas depicted by the biblical phrase "fiery flying serpents" Were these "salamanders"? A brass model of this reptile symbolized Jesus himself, who commanded Moses to put it up on a pole, so the people who had been bitten could look to it and live (Num. 21:6-9; 1 Ne. 17:41; cf. Is. 14:29; 30:6; 2 Ne. 25:20). The Hebrew word here for "fiery" is saraf. This strongly suggests a further connection with the six-winged seraphim (Is. 6:2-6) and the nearly identical cherubin (Ezek. 1 & 10; Rev. 4:6-8). Cf. Egyptian srf ("griffon"). Were their six wings and abstraction from the six, red, wing-like, external gills of salamanders?

7. Eternal life and resurrection were also symbolized by the salamander. The Arabic word for both the salamander and the phoenix, which could die and rise again out of its own ashes, was samandal. Se Al-Jahiz, Kitab al-Hayawan (9th c.) 5:309-10 (Harun edition); S. Nasser, Intro. to Islamic Cosmology, 2d ed., 273 n. 29.

8. People too were sometimes called salamanders. Shakespeare calls a fiery-red face a "salamander." Henry IV, III, iii, 58. Likewise called were soldiers who courageously exposed themselves to fire in battle. Salamanders appear in medieval and renaissance coats of arms, including that of Francis I, King of France. Thomas Brooks in 1670 wrote, "God's people are true salamanders, the live best in the fire of afflictions." Works 6:441.

9. Not all salamanders were good, however. The poisonous ones are "spectacularly colored" with bright spots on a dark background. Encycl. Brit. (15th ed.), Macrop. 18:1087. They were linked with evil spirits. But the non-poisonous good ones were white or grey-brown.

Obviously, much has changed culturally since 1830. Some of us may wince at the suggestion that an angel of God should be associated with, or described as, a salamander. But to people then, no image or description would better fit the appearance of a brillant white spiritual being, once a valiant soldier, now dwelling in a blazing pillar of light, shockingly pure and glorious, speaking with the voice of God while flying though the midst of Heaven, then the salamander! Moroni should be flattered. (JS-H 1:30-32; History of the Church 4:536).

Still, it was predictable that people would not understand this. The Lord apparently knew this would happen. In 1829, God commanded Harris not to try to describe things which he had not personally witnessed: "And I the Lord command him, my servant Martin Harris, that he shall say no more unto them concerning these things, except he shall say: I have seen them, and they have been shown unto me by the power of God; and these are the words which he shall say." D&C 5:26. Harris seems to have overstepped his commission here when he wrote to Phelps in 1830.

Further research is still underway. Glenn Clark's recent "Pillars of My Faith" presentation at the Sunstone Theological Symposium (May 18, 1985) covers several of these points and will soon appear in Sunstone. In the end, this research may lead to a less "modern" view of many symbolically meaningful religious events: a burning bush; a talking ass; a flaming sword; a tempting snake; the Lord with seven horns and seven eyes; a descending dove; and a salamander angel.

(FAIR USE COPYING NOTICE: These pages may be reproduced and used, without alteration, addition or deletion, for any nonpecuniary or non-publishing purpose, without permission.)

Okay, I've done some reading. The letter in this article was one of many "discovered" by a young historian named Mark Hofmann. Once I saw his name I realized where the story was going. This was an embarrassing time for some church historians in Salt Lake City. Basically the head church historian and several church leaders were totally hoodwinked by Hofmann. In 1987, Hofmann murdered two people with bombs and tried to murder several others until he was injured by one of his own bombs. Hofmann later confessed that his letters were forgeries.

So unless Hofmann's confession was coerced, the letter that started the whole white salamander was a fabrication. It was, however, very successful in freaking out a lot of people and fooling some church leaders.

There's a pretty balanced review of a book on this subject at this link. The author is a staunch Mormon hater, and even he said the salamander letter was bull. Take it for what it's worth. Let me tell you this. If all you look for is negative stories about "Mormonism," you'll never lack for sources, but you'll never get the whole story.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingreview.htm

 

[Reality]

Never any mention about magical salamanders.
Here is what some Jehovahs Witnesses literature has regarding salamanders:

A Long Sleep

Miners claimed an extraordinary find when they recently excavated for gold in the bleak Siberian region of Yakutia, just above the Arctic Circle. Thirty feet [9 m] below the surface of the polar tundra, they discovered a triton, a tailed amphibious animal resembling a newt (salamander), trapped in the permafrost. The news agency Tass asserts that, to the amazement of the miners, after a while in the sun “it crawled slowly . . . on its five-fingered limbs, turning its head, with round bulging eyes, from side to side.” It died after a few days. Soviet scientists say that in a state of reduced animation, known as anabiosis, it is possible for such creatures to live for hundreds, even thousands, of years.

*** g91 9/8 p. 29 Watching the World ***

Animals in Danger

The Environment Committee of the State Council in China recently revealed that “because of reckless hunting, the number of wild animals is becoming smaller in China, and many rare animals are facing extinction.” After examining a number of restaurants, markets, ports, and private businesses in the province of Kwangtung, a group of inspectors recently found that rare animals continue to be killed and sold there. According to the magazine China Today, the “provincial forestry bureau reported that 1,286 rare animals, including the giant lizard, pangolin, giant salamander, monkey and civet, had been killed, sold or smuggled in 11 of the province’s cities.” China Environmental News notes that ‘some people, including some officials, do not fully understand the importance of protecting wild animals. In their view, everybody can hunt wild animals because they don’t belong to anyone.’
*******

A small salamander or tailed amphibian, resembling a lizard but scaleless and covered with a soft, moist, thin skin. It is related to the frog and is listed among the unclean creatures of the Mosaic Law. (Le 11:29, 30) The banded newt (Triturus vittatus) of Asia Minor and Syria is distinguished by a black band along each side of its body. Born in the water, it lives on land for two or three years after losing its gills, then returns to the water to live out the remainder of its life.
********

The Blind Watchmaker, by Richard Dawkins, on page 116 comments on the amount of information stored in a single cell: “There is enough storage capacity in the DNA of a single lily seed or a single salamander sperm to store the Encyclopædia Britannica 60 times over. Some species of the unjustly called ‘primitive’ amoebas have as much information in their DNA as 1,000 Encyclopædia Britannicas.”

 

[WayOutWest]

Okay, I've done some reading. The letter in this article was one of many "discovered" by a young historian named Mark Hofmann. Once I saw his name I realized where the story was going. This was an embarrassing time for some church historians in Salt Lake City. Basically the head church historian and several church leaders were totally hoodwinked by Hofmann. In 1987, Hofmann murdered two people with bombs and tried to murder several others until he was injured by one of his own bombs. Hofmann later confessed that his letters were forgeries.

So unless Hofmann's confession was coerced, the letter that started the whole white salamander was a fabrication. It was, however, very successful in freaking out a lot of people and fooling some church leaders.

There's a pretty balanced review of a book on this subject at this link. The author is a staunch Mormon hater, and even he said the salamander letter was bull. Take it for what it's worth. Let me tell you this. If all you look for is negative stories about "Mormonism," you'll never lack for sources, but you'll never get the whole story.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingreview.htm

Why did it take the actions of outsiders and "Mormon haters" to wake the church up to the truth?

[Ted]

Is this correct Ted?

Mormonism began when Joseph Smith, a young man in western New York, was spurred by a Christian revival where he lived in 1820 to pray to God for guidance as to which church was true. In answer to his prayers he was visited by God the Father and God the Son, two separate beings, who told him to join no church because all the churches at that time were false, and that he, Joseph, would bring forth the true church. This event is called "The First Vision."


In 1823 Joseph had another heavenly visitation, in which an angel named Moroni told him of a sacred history written by ancient Hebrews in America, engraved in an Egyptian dialect on tablets of gold and buried in a nearby hill. Joseph was told it was the history of the ancient peoples of America, and that Joseph would be the instrument for bringing this record to the knowledge of the world. Joseph obtained these gold plates from the angel in 1827, and translated them into English by the spirit of God and the use of a sacred instrument accompanying the plates called the "Urim and Thummim." The translation was published in 1830 as The Book of Mormon.


The Book of Mormon is a religious and secular history of the inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere from about 2200 BC to about 421 AD. It tells the reader that the American Indians are descended from three groups of immigrants who were led by God from their original homes in the Near East to America. One group came from the Tower of Babel, and two other groups came from Jerusalem just before the Babylonian Captivity, about 600 BC. They were led by prophets of God who had the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is thus preserved in their history, the Book of Mormon. Many of the descendants of these immigrants were Christians, even before Christ was born in Palestine, but many were unbelievers. Believers and unbelievers fought many wars, the last of which left only degenerate unbelievers as survivors, who are the ancestors of the American Indians. The most important event during this long history was the visit of Jesus Christ to America, after his crucifixion, when he ministered to (and converted) all the inhabitants.


Joseph Smith was directed by revelation from God to reestablish ("restore") the true church, which he did in 1830. He was visited several times by heavenly messengers, who ordained him to the true priesthood. He continued to have revelations from God to guide the church and to give more knowledge of the Gospel. Many of these revelations are published in the Doctrine and Covenants.


Joseph Smith and his followers were continually persecuted for their religious beliefs, and driven from New York State to Ohio, then to Missouri, then to Illinois, where Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844 by a mob, a martyr to his beliefs. The church was then led by Brigham Young, Joseph's successor, to Utah, where the Mormons settled successfully.


The LDS church is led today by the successors of Joseph Smith. The present president of the church is a "prophet, seer and revelator" just as Joseph Smith was, and guides the members of the church through revelations and guidance from God.


The modern LDS church is the only true church, as restored by God through Joseph Smith. Other churches, derived from the early Christian church, are in apostasy because their leaders corrupted the scriptures, changed the ordinances of the original church, and often led corrupt lives, thus losing their authority.


By accepting baptism into the LDS church you take the first step necessary toward your salvation and your ultimate entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (the "Celestial Kingdom").

For the most part, this is accurate. The part that talks about leaders of other churches leading corrupt lives is not accurate. LDS church members should not claim to know the hearts of other people, and anyone who claims to is a liar. I have great respect for anyone who believes in a follows a faith that teaches them to be good to their fellow man. We do believe that there was an apostasy as prophesied in the Bible. But we also do not judge people of other faiths, or we should not, lest we be judged by that same judgement.

[Ted]

Okay, I've done some reading. The letter in this article was one of many "discovered" by a young historian named Mark Hofmann. Once I saw his name I realized where the story was going. This was an embarrassing time for some church historians in Salt Lake City. Basically the head church historian and several church leaders were totally hoodwinked by Hofmann. In 1987, Hofmann murdered two people with bombs and tried to murder several others until he was injured by one of his own bombs. Hofmann later confessed that his letters were forgeries.

So unless Hofmann's confession was coerced, the letter that started the whole white salamander was a fabrication. It was, however, very successful in freaking out a lot of people and fooling some church leaders.

There's a pretty balanced review of a book on this subject at this link. The author is a staunch Mormon hater, and even he said the salamander letter was bull. Take it for what it's worth. Let me tell you this. If all you look for is negative stories about "Mormonism," you'll never lack for sources, but you'll never get the whole story.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingreview.htm

Why did it take the actions of outsiders and "Mormon haters" to wake the church up to the truth?

I honestly don't know. I do know that Hofmann was a highly trusted historian in his day, and he fooled a lot of smart people.  

[Ted]

I also dug up:

The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?    NOTES


Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later.   NOTES


In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.    NOTES


Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.  NOTES


The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."   NOTES


Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (apparently a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.   NOTES


The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.    NOTES


The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.  NOTES


Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race.   NOTES


Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.   NOTES


Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.   NOTES


Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet   NOTES. The most recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide.   NOTES


The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day.    NOTES  Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the 150 years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.    NOTES


Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

-  The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);   NOTES
-  the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
-  Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);   NOTES
-  the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);   NOTES
-  Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);   NOTES

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.   NOTES

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.   NOTES

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.   NOTES


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.    NOTES


Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."    NOTES


Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history.   NOTES

WoW, if you really want me to, I'll respond to each and every question you've got. I know you well enough to know that your only interest in a discussion of religion is to attack without understanding. It's obvious that, by getting all of your information from a site whose only purpose is to belittle something that is vitally important to me, you're not really interested in what I have to say.

I've read nearly every word of exmormon.org, and several books on the "falseness" of the LDS church. Steve Benson, a pretty famous political cartoonist and one of the main heroes on exmormon.org, is my second cousin. When I heard his story, it made me totally re-examine what I believed. I've studied long and hard about these things, and I've come to one conclusion. For every historical or current source that cries foul, there is a source that supports the goodness of what I believe. Nearly every negative historical reference about Joseph Smith comes from someone who hated Mormons; and every positive reference comes from someone who loves them. Who do you believe? Both sides are biased. Well, the fact of the matter is, you're screwed if the stories of men are all you're going to rely on.

Try to understand one thing, and I hope I don't misrepresent others on this board. Faith in any religion, supreme being, savior, prophet, etc. requires willingness to postpone sure knowledge for a time. It sure would be easy for me if Jesus Christ came down and kicked you in your fat ass, but that's not how he shows himselves in our lives. We believe in him, have faith in what he has promised he will do for us if we follow his example, and THEN, if we've got our eyes open, we see him in our lives. Can anyone else attest to that?

Anyway, you can post all the anti-religion, anti-Mormon sh*t you want and it won't shake me. I'm not some mindless drone who doesn't wipe my ass unless my church leader tells me to. I came to this belief on my own. It's my choice, and I've made it.

[spursfan101]

Very interesting guys.  I don't put much stock in the mormon religion, but if you do, that's fantastic. Bottom line is, you follow Christ, so your a Christian. For those that put their faith in Allah; more power to you brother.  Hindu is your God?  Budah?  Great.  

My personal belief is, God takes many forms.  The world is a great, diverse place. I don't think there is ANY ONE WAY to worship, you just have to go with what feels right.  In the end, we will be judged, I don't think there will be a separate line for any 1 religion to get to the front of that line.  In the end, your faith, your good deeds toward man, and your penis size will get you threw the gates.  (just seeing in anyone is paying attention.)


There are three religious truths:

1. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

2. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith.

3. Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store or at Hooters.
 

[WayOutWest]

Ted,

Your response is typical of most people I've encountered.  I didn't go out of my way to find that info, just typed in Mormon and there it was near the top of the list.  Odd, yet not surprising, that you take it as an attack.  

I don't like religion, hate is probably too strong a word considering I don't feel strongly enough about religion to feel hate.  It's like parking tickets, I don't really think much about them until the subject comes up.

I know very little about Mormons other than their rep in Utah of multiple wives and other stuff I saw on 60 minutes or some other news show.  The basically followed two girls around and told their story.  They both got out but one went back.  Pretty nasty stuff going on in their part of the world.  I've found sites on other subjects with slants going in either direction.

In the end, IMO, the "supreme being" written about in the various version of the bible is a far shittier father then I would expect.  People are just afraid of death and religion helps in that regard.

Why are there different versions of the bible anyway?

[jn]

I'm sorry but I HATE JOSEPH SMITH!!!!![/b]  

All that money and draft picks lost and for what?  A totally gay choir? :lol:  

[Ted]

Sorry if I'm overly defensive about my beliefs; I'll chill out a bit. Still, I don't buy the idea that you didn't know what you were posting. Why should it be odd that I perceive an attack when the only information you're willing to consider is from people who hate that which I hold sacred? That site is clear in it's objectives. Did you "dig it up," or did it just pop up on your screen? If you didn't realize what you were looking at the moment you entered, you need to lay off the wacky tabacky.

As far as you hating religion, sorry if I misinterpreted your earlier posts; you seemed pretty clear on the subject. Direct quote from the "Evangelicals frustrated with Bush" thread: "I hate religion, I think religion is the scum of the earth, especially those that fly the banner of Jesus." That's cool. I don't care. You have every right to feel however you want.

Another quote:

"I know very little about Mormons . . ."

Yep. I'll say it once more. The people in Utah and neighboring states who have plural wives are not Mormons. If a Mormon takes a plural wife, they are no longer Mormon.

You may not think it, but I respect your right to your opinion on religion, and I respect your right to have that opinion in peace. Can you do that for me?

P.S. Your Bible question: Many different Kings, monks and scholars over the centuries have commissioned or performed translations of the Bible. Then in recent years, some have rewritten the text in more modern language, to make it more understandable.