Author Topic: Hey Ted  (Read 19752 times)

Offline spursfan101

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Hey Ted
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2004, 12:52:37 PM »
Man...poor Derek!   :o

I heard that they are really particular about you giving your...what's the word...tithings?  That they will knock on your door if you are not giving your 10% or whatever, basically send you to COLLECTIONS!  :o

To be fair,  I also heard that they are extremely giving, and when a member is in trouble, they take care of their own. :)  
Paul

Offline spursfan101

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Hey Ted
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2004, 12:53:47 PM »
Hey WOW, not a Mason, am an inactive Knight of Columbus.  (We strap with the Masons in the backalleys. ;)  
Paul

Offline Ted

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Hey Ted
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2004, 01:10:22 PM »
Wow, a "hive"? Now I feel like a Borg drone. "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." I doubt it was meant it as an insult, but I resent the idea that somehow being LDS removes one's free will or individuality.

JoMal, you're right about pressure. For people who don't really want to be there or who don't really believe, trying to play the LDS part can really be hard. The expectations are high.

I think you may have some of your story mixed up though. That's not the way it works. In fact, it MUST not work that way. Repentance isn't about "shame" in front of other members; that's just plain wrong. My brother went through a similar "repentance" process, and it was nothing like your friend's experience. If you want an explanation of what is supposed to happen, I'd be happy to send you an email. I doubt everyone here is all that interested in the particulars of Mormon membership.
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

Offline Ted

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Hey Ted
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2004, 01:18:04 PM »
Tithing is completely voluntary. If you don't pay tithing, you are not kicked out of the church and you are not sent to collections, and no one comes to your house.

Church members are encouraged to contribute whatever they can each month to a fund that the local bishop then uses to help people in the neighborhood, usually members, and sometimes others. It's called a Fast Offering, and it usually amounts to five to ten bucks a month. You donate if you wish to.
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

Offline Ted

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Hey Ted
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2004, 01:18:57 PM »
What exactly is a Mason? I've heard of them, but I don't know much about them. Wasn't the first GW a mason?
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

jn

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Hey Ted
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2004, 01:27:32 PM »
Masons are a fraternal organization that grew out of the old European guild system.  There rituals borrowed from other older organizations.  Some elements borrow from old occult practices so the Masons have been accused of being part of some sort of evil conspiracy, somehow tied in with the Knights Templar, Hospitalers, Rosecrucians, etc.
 

jn

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Hey Ted
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2004, 01:35:45 PM »
And yes George Washington, Ben Franklin, Paul Revere, and other founders were Masons.  I think the Pyramid and Eye symbol on the dollar is a Masonic symbol.  

Offline WayOutWest

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Hey Ted
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2004, 01:35:52 PM »
Quote
Hey WOW, not a Mason, am an inactive Knight of Columbus.  (We strap with the Masons in the backalleys. ;)
"stap" ?  For your sake I hope you're the one who's strapping it on, otherwise you're just a catcher and not a Knight.
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jn

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Hey Ted
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2004, 01:38:06 PM »
That would make him a Templar.  There was a reason their symbol was two guys riding a horse.  :lol:  

Offline WayOutWest

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Hey Ted
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2004, 01:40:36 PM »
Quote
And yes George Washington, Ben Franklin, Paul Revere, and other founders were Masons.  I think the Pyramid and Eye symbol on the dollar is a Masonic symbol.
Yes they are.  All but two or three of the signers of the Declaration of Independance where Masons.  Patrick Henry didn't like them, PH was the MAN!!!

The square and compass are the symbols of the Masons.  Washington DC's streets around key buildings form that symbol.  Every president except Clinton was a Mason or honorary Mason.  Their origins date back to the crusades and they have temples in every single country.  They are very much cultish but their power and sphere of influence is amazing.

I was asked to join but there is a thing about keeping secrets that my wife wouldn't buy into so I didn't join.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline WayOutWest

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Hey Ted
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2004, 01:41:55 PM »
Quote
Wow, a "hive"? Now I feel like a Borg drone. "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." I doubt it was meant it as an insult, but I resent the idea that somehow being LDS removes one's free will or individuality.

JoMal, you're right about pressure. For people who don't really want to be there or who don't really believe, trying to play the LDS part can really be hard. The expectations are high.

I think you may have some of your story mixed up though. That's not the way it works. In fact, it MUST not work that way. Repentance isn't about "shame" in front of other members; that's just plain wrong. My brother went through a similar "repentance" process, and it was nothing like your friend's experience. If you want an explanation of what is supposed to happen, I'd be happy to send you an email. I doubt everyone here is all that interested in the particulars of Mormon membership.
Post away evil one, there's tons of stuff I'm sure I could use for ammo.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline JoMal

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Hey Ted
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2004, 01:50:17 PM »
A "hive" mentality, or "collective" mentality was the first thing I thought of when I was deep inside the Mormon Church, but a "protective" mentality probably would be a much more accurate description. They are a very closed group, protective of their members and mutually supportive when they need to be. The main feeling was one of never having to face adversity... or shame....alone. You are welcomed into the group, you must face the group if things go wrong, and the group decides your fate. Once repentance is achieved, the group magnanamously welcomes you back.  

Derek was an outsider, not only of the Mormon Church, but of his family itself. He chose, however, to not indulge in any other typical vices that the rest of us deal with....alcohol, caffeine, smoking... because he just was not interested in any of it, though curious enough to try all of it to at least experience it once. His friendship with me, a non-Mormon, was probably another example of that. His best friend up to then was a Jack-Mormon, who fell off the church bandwagon in all ways. I met Derek through this mutual acquaintance, who was dating a close friend of mine from high school, (who, as it turned out, is now my wife). Derek and I had so many things in common, plus our personalities meshed so well, that we became friends almost immediately.

But the one thing that kind of stuck between our friendship was the Mormon Church. His loyalty to it was amazing, considering he did not fully accept all the constraints of it. His family was always so nice to me, I felt extremely comfortable at his home. Only later did I learn how fake all of that was.

Within the last ten years, Derek's mother died of cancer. Almost immediately, his father started to date another women of the church and married her within six months. Before then, Derek, who always was a very hard worker and always thinking of ways to make money, went into business with his father involving an idea that Derek came up with and, with Derek doing the hard work and sales, just needed his father's financial help to make a go of it. His father agreed on the stipulation that Derek bring in his younger brother into the business as well. The brother, Clay, never had much drive or direction and his father wanted him to have a career of some sort, so Derek agreed.

Once the company Derek developed and worked so hard to make a go of took off, his father sued Derek to take full control of the company and won the lawsuit, at which time he gave full control of the company to Clay and kicked Derek out completely. Derek was so devastated he could hardly function. My wife and I only communicated, via emails, with Derek's wife during this time, who told us the story. We last saw Derek at his daugher's wedding down in Vallejo, about four years ago. His whole family was there, except his sister, and while they were as friendly as ever towards me, Derek would not talk to them, or sit with them, and never acknowledged them the whole day. He has since moved to Idaho and we don't see them anymore, though the wifes email each other occasionally.

All that open, friendly, welcoming attitude, and you never really know what lurks underneath. Needless to say, I don't necessarily blame the Mormon Church for Derek's family turning out to be rather evil, but I also can see how the mentality of the closed society of the church could cammoflage the reality so well.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

jn

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Hey Ted
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2004, 01:55:23 PM »
Mmmm... here's what I found for a list of Mason Presidents.


http://home.att.net/~presidents/


As for the roots in the Crusades part I assume your talking about the same thing I was, namely that the borrowed some of their ideas from what they thought The Templars and Hospitalers were about, and later the Teutonic Knights.  That's a whole fascinating topic in and of itself.

I wonder what the Templars did with the Holy Grail?  ;)  

Offline spursfan101

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Hey Ted
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2004, 02:06:37 PM »
Horrible.   :angry: Hope the company imploded under his lil brothers leadership.
Paul

Offline Ted

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Hey Ted
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2004, 02:13:58 PM »
JoMal,

I think I remember you telling that story before. It is a bitterly tragic story. First of all, your friend Derek was probably one of the most honest and true members of his family. The way his father treated him is sinful, more sinful IMO than anything Derek ever did because his father undoubtedly hid his rottenness behind his devout facade and sterling church attendance. That's the worst kind of false witness there is.

I'm really sorry that your contact with Mormons has been so negative. I wish I could say that we are immune to vice and human weakness, but I can't. The divorce rate among LDS marriages isn't as high as the general population, but it's high. And Mormon families are torn apart by drugs, violence, pornography and dishonesty all the time. There are a lot of true and good people in the LDS church, just as there are a lot of good and true Buddhists, Muslims, Catholics, Hindus and even WayOutWests.

There are LDS people (like your friend's family) who think they will be saved by going through life living according to the scriptures on the surface, looking righteous to the world, while rotting away greed and evil inside. They just don't believe the gospel they are following. In that way you are right, the closeness and community of the Mormon culture can hide a lot, but not from God. Your friend didn't deserve what happened to him. If his family had truly lived what they professed to believe, his life would have been better.
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton