Author Topic: My Letter from John Kerry!  (Read 8375 times)

Guest_Randy

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2004, 03:25:18 PM »
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It never ceases to amaze me that you are like the 3rd son of George Bush Sr.  Randy... as a tax paying, voting American I am entitled to critique any decision made by the government that effects me, my family, or the people around me.  That is part of democrary buddy.  That is how this system works, the people are the voice and part of that  is speaking your mind.   Whether it be with other voting Americans, in a debate, at  a school, or in the polls.   God forbid we have millions of Randy's running around the US right now getting brown goo on the end of their nose from the presidents rear end like he did this country such a great serive the last 2 years.  Dont get me wrong he did a fine job boosting the morale of the US after 9/11....but aside from that he has done very little to deserve this constant e-buttlicking he recieves from you.    What makes me laugh the most is you always rant about Kerry's promises and how hallow they are, even tho the guy has no way of doing anything until hes president.......but seem to "forget" about the promises and statements Bush has given the people of the US .  We were told we would see a boost in the economy.  We were told the war in Iraq was won.  We were even told that America is safer than ever.  None of which are about as hallow as anything Kerry has said (according to you), except for that one important fact that Bush actually has alot of power in the US.  If you think America is safer now than before because you wait at the airport longer you are sadly mistaken.  Right now I can tell you that a large number of water treatment plants in Southern California are vulnerable.  This isnt some kind of Michael Moore statement either....I work for a large engineering firm that is in the water and waste water treatment industry.  Some of the work the company does is provide assessments on the vulnerability of the treatment plants.

Randy think back to when the apple of your eye addressed all us American's on national television.  I believe the underlining reason we were going to war was because Bush and his staff felt that Iraq was possing a threat to the United States because they had weapons of mass destruction.  How can you honestly say you don't understand why this is all about weapons of mass destruction?  We wouldn't have put forth thousands and thousands of US lives, billions of US dollars, shrugged off our allies, and possibly broke international law because Sadaam is a bad bad guy to his people.  Sadaam was plotting to blow us up ( :rolleyes: ).  Maybe if Bush stressed another reason on why he needed to rally US support so quickly people wouldnt bring it up.  He did not so how can you expect people to talk about Sadaam spitting in the UNs face like they would WMDs?  That wasn't the reason we went in the first place.  That sounds like a Bush (and in your case Bush supporter) excuse because we found nothing.

edit: btw Randy...when your decisions directly effect millions and millions of people in the US, middle east, and abroad they are always going to be held under scrutiny.  That's part of the job.  Its not ok to critique Bush's decisions that effect us all.....but its ok to critique Kerry's decisions on where it should go from here?
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Kerry's promises and how hallow they are, even tho the guy has no way of doing anything until hes president

Umm, you don't think that years as a Senator is "no way of doing anything until hes president?  There are Senators from BOTH parties on Capital Hill making a difference -- Kerry just hasn't been one of those -- EVER!  Why do you think he's running on his war record from Vietnam instead of his record as Senator in Congress. He doesn't want to talk about his record in government -- EVER, does he?

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We were told we would see a boost in the economy.

Why don't most people realize that effect of 9/11 on our economy?  Clinton left Bush with an economy that was already reeling -- made worse by the electoral process that made a lot of investors very nervous.  So he already inherited a shaky economy and that was shattered by 9/11.  Look what happened to the tech industry -- look what happened to the airline industry, only to name a few.  We have seen a steady growth in our economy but I wouldn't expect you to see that until a democratic President is elected to give him credit.

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If you think America is safer now than before because you wait at the airport longer you are sadly mistaken.  Right now I can tell you that a large number of water treatment plants in Southern California are vulnerable.  This isnt some kind of Michael Moore statement either....I work for a large engineering firm that is in the water and waste water treatment industry.  Some of the work the company does is provide assessments on the vulnerability of the treatment plants.

Okay, let me get this right -- you think that America isn't safer because of the vulnerability of water treatment plants in So. California?  So what has Bush done to make those less safe than they were before?  There isn't anything to compare it to -- because there wasn't a lot of thought into MAKING those safer before 9/11 was there?  Now, all of the sudden, it's up to Bush to protect everything in the US?  As long as we have free borders, it will always be impossible to protect everything 100% -- but the fact is that the US IS safer than we were before -- is there still a lot of work to be done?  Of course, but there is no way to safeguard every possible target in the US -- not unless we want to spend trillions of dollars on nothing but security.  You really think that we should safeguard every water treatment plant in the US?  Or just the ones around you?

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I believe the underlining reason we were going to war was because Bush and his staff felt that Iraq was possing a threat to the United States because they had weapons of mass destruction.  How can you honestly say you don't understand why this is all about weapons of mass destruction?

Well, I was actually listening before the talk about weapons of mass destruction -- Bush said "Saddam, you have until _______ (date) to comply with UN demands (I might add that these demands had been pushed, ignored and taunted by Saddam for years) -- if you don't comply by that time, we will inspect your country by force."  You don't remember those statements?  Now, what I do believe is that Saddam hated the US and would do anything in his power to see harm come to us.  He had motive, money and opportunity -- so I truly believe it was simply a matter of time.  We all know that Saddam supported terrorism even though he didn't support Bin Laden.

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but its ok to critique Kerry's decisions on where it should go from here?

Umm, decisions and campaign promises are two different things.  So far, name one decision that Kerry has made in government to date -- then I might start believing he has the capability to lead our country anywhere.  

PS - please show me where I said that Bush was the right man for the job?  What I DO stand by is that he is a better man for the job than John Kerry!

Offline Lurker

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2004, 03:26:15 PM »
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Just a compliment is all. Admire him for sticking up to the environmental wasting, non-recycling, minority hating, white only-loving, war-mongoring, morality pushin, bible thumpin, non-overtime payin, isolationist lovin, non WMD findin, Christianity is the only approved religion, right wing,poor-hatin, non-compasionate, assault weapon lovin Repubs.

And YES x3, I know you that that as a compliment! :rofl:
You're a psycho 101.

I usually vote Republican, and I recycle.

What do you have to say to that!?!
That having too many wives can confuse you like that.     :D
Well, I've been sitting here for five minutes trying to think of a comeback on the same intellectual level as yours Lurk.

This is all I got:

"Yo mama so fat, she sat on a quarter and squeezed a booger outta Washington's nose."
Well, Ted....when you throw out an opened ended line like that you have got to expect a slam coming back.


BTW your momma is so fat she makes my fat momma look like an anorexic Hollywood starlet.



(Sorry so long for the response....damn work gets in the way of intelligent conversation.)
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Offline westkoast

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2004, 03:51:42 PM »
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Umm, you don't think that years as a Senator is "no way of doing anything until hes president? There are Senators from BOTH parties on Capital Hill making a difference -- Kerry just hasn't been one of those -- EVER! Why do you think he's running on his war record from Vietnam instead of his record as Senator in Congress. He doesn't want to talk about his record in government -- EVER, does he?

So a senator directly controls foreign policy, the army in Iraq, and the president appointed homeland security concil?  Did Bush run on his record when he was in charge over in Texas?  I believe Lurker, x3, and 101 will tell you how great a job he did there.  I've seen Bush's record as president and I think it stinks.  Kerry is one of many many many senators.  Bush is one of one in the president category.  Who has more pull in the govt, the people, and people overseas?  John Kerry the Mass. Senator or George Bush Jr. The President of the United States?

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Why don't most people realize that effect of 9/11 on our economy? Clinton left Bush with an economy that was already reeling -- made worse by the electoral process that made a lot of investors very nervous. So he already inherited a shaky economy and that was shattered by 9/11. Look what happened to the tech industry -- look what happened to the airline industry, only to name a few. We have seen a steady growth in our economy but I wouldn't expect you to see that until a democratic President is elected to give him credit.

No one is denying the effect 9/11 had on the economy.  This is 2 years and counting later Randy with the economy being in a tad (I stress TAD) better shape as when everyone was scared.  We all knew it was a tough task but again Bush was the one who opened his mouth and promised that it would turn around.  When you say something along those lines of course people are going to call you on it.  He was better off doing the normal political jig around the subject.  At least then people wouldn't have been hoping for something that was pretty tough to do. As for the electoral process....You can thank good ol Jed (or jeb whatever his name is) Bush for the American people not sure what direction the country was going in.  Btw, Clinton had the economy running to a T during his terms until the tech bubble burst.  That had very little to do with Clinton and his decisions as it did people high on the 'get rich quick' fever going about.  Bush's decisions have directly effected the economy in a negative way.

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Okay, let me get this right -- you think that America isn't safer because of the vulnerability of water treatment plants in So. California? So what has Bush done to make those less safe than they were before? There isn't anything to compare it to -- because there wasn't a lot of thought into MAKING those safer before 9/11 was there? Now, all of the sudden, it's up to Bush to protect everything in the US? As long as we have free borders, it will always be impossible to protect everything 100% -- but the fact is that the US IS safer than we were before -- is there still a lot of work to be done? Of course, but there is no way to safeguard every possible target in the US -- not unless we want to spend trillions of dollars on nothing but security. You really think that we should safeguard every water treatment plant in the US? Or just the ones around you?


That was one example.  Quite a big example if you ask me considering if we had bad water or a waste treatment plant go out that we would all suffer from the nasty effects raw sewage has on the body and the enviroment.  Where is the stepped up pressure from the white house to secure soft spots?  They did it with the airports (then stopped) why not continue that pressure onto other soft spots?  Imagine all those billions of dollars going to fight in Iraq being used to secure spots at home.  Water and waste water treatment plants, the border....better yet how about more police on the streets?  Protecting our intrests at home are not Bush's sole responsibility but it should be high up on his list.  In fact it should have been higher up on the list than invading Iraq.  Whats more important to you Randy, knowing that we have more man power at home and we are focused in on our own security all the way around or knowing that Iraqi's no longer have to fear Sadaam?  Because quite frankly the only people who were threatend by Sadaam last year was the Iraqi, not American, people

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Well, I was actually listening before the talk about weapons of mass destruction -- Bush said "Saddam, you have until _______ (date) to comply with UN demands (I might add that these demands had been pushed, ignored and taunted by Saddam for years) -- if you don't comply by that time, we will inspect your country by force." You don't remember those statements? Now, what I do believe is that Saddam hated the US and would do anything in his power to see harm come to us. He had motive, money and opportunity -- so I truly believe it was simply a matter of time. We all know that Saddam supported terrorism even though he didn't support Bin Laden.

So you can honestly sit behind your work computer and tell me that Bush rallied the US and the government behind his cause soley based on getting Sadaam to comply with the UN demands?  We speak on behalf of the UN but as soon as the rest of the UN decides against the invasion we are solo.  That selective memory must come in handy for you Randy.  Kim in N. Korea hates us, has a motive, money, and really has an arsenal.  He's hanging out in pumps eating Kim Chi.  He hasnt even fully been addressed.  Why even take part in the UN or pretend like we believe it helps the world as a whole if we are going to push it aside when we please?  We openly defied the UN just like Sadaam did.  Except 10 fold.  We involved the well being of our own soldiers and the innocent people living in Iraq.

Demo and Rep mean nothing to me to tell you the truth.  Basically its the crip and the bloods for older white males.  Bush took a crack at it, I feel he has done a poor job and is focused on the wrong things.  On top of that he has to stick by decisions he made in this term if he gets re-elected.  Thats how he works and in most cases I would say thats a good personality trait, except when things are not working.  Two times in the last few months he has either justified or said he would not do anything different when it comes to Iraq.  That bothers me.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 03:57:11 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Joe Vancil

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2004, 10:03:31 AM »
westkoast,

You said:

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The end result was us not finding anything, loosing a thousand lives, and throwing Iraq into turmoil. As much as I agree about the UN being like a soccer mom and pretending Iraq didn't do anything wrong (the whole inspector ordeal) they were right.

That's where I disagree.  We didn't find *NOTHING*.  We found research for solid fuel missiles.  We found missiles that exceeded the flight limitation ban.    We found advanced research on unmanned vehicles.  EACH ONE OF THESE THINGS IS A VIOLATION OF THE AGREEMENT THAT ENDED THE FIRST GULF WAR.  Each one of these things is something the UN inspectors missed.  Each one of these things is, in my eyes, justification for us going back in to Iraq.

Now, in all fairness, is this just not enough for you to justify going in, or is it that you deny these claims?  In essence, WHAT WOULD WE HAVE HAD TO FIND in order for you to say, "We were right, and the UN was wrong."

I fault the intelligence community for a shoddy job on pre-war intelligence;  I don't think any reasonable American wouldn't.  And for certain, that faulty intelligence misled us into thinking Iraq was a bigger threat than it was.  BUT IT WAS A THREAT.  It *WAS* violating the terms of the accord ending the first Gulf War.  Now perhaps it's just me, but I believe that a "scrap of paper" is worth fighting for.

Did we find what we expected, given what we were told in advance of the war?  Hell no.  (And I think we should hold our intelligence agencies accountable for those failures.)  Did we find enough to justify what we did?  In my opinion, *YES*.

Until someone answers how grave they consider Iraq's violation of the agreement, and is willing to admit that we *DID* find violations, I have trouble agreeing with any criticism of the President that they offer.  I want to know what those people would consider a significant enough violation in order to go to war.  I want to know how they propose to find such violations.  Folks may say, "It's because the UN Inspectors didn't have enough time."  This was *YEARS* of research and development - much of it occuring while the UN Inspectors were there the first time.  This didn't happen in a couple of years the Inspectors weren't there.

If it's just that you don't believe in war, that's fine;  many folks share that belief.  But if you *DO* believe in war depending on circumstances - which is the more common view - then I'm trying to figure out how you can reconcile our findings with the statement "the UN was right."

 
Joe

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Offline Lurker

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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2004, 10:29:05 AM »
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It *WAS* violating the terms of the accord ending the first Gulf War.  Now perhaps it's just me, but I believe that a "scrap of paper" is worth fighting for.
 
So that "scrap of paper" called the Geneva Convention which the US has ignored should give our enemies the reason they need to attack us.  Same logic, Joe.

No, there was NOT enough evidence...found or make believe....to justify the US invading a sovereign nation.  There was no immediate threat to the US, US interests or Americans.  IMO the war in Iraq was for two reasons....1) to finish what Daddy couldn't and 2) to try and improve our economy.  

Bush went off like an old wild west sheriff bound and determined to get the "bad guy".  He had no strategy for how to end the conflict....short of killing every single Iraqi.  He still doesn't!  Also why Iraq?  Why not Lybia? Or Korea? Or any of the other half dozen countries that have WMD and show no "friendship" to the US or Americans?  Basically Daddy Bush backed down from Saddam in the Gulf War and by god Junior was going to finish it.

Also histroy has shown that war tends to bring our economy out of any doldrums that it is in.  After 9/11 the econonmy was in great danger of dropping into a depression....it was struggling prior to the attacks.  What better way to help unemployment than to send thousands of able bodied men & women overseas?  And to top it off we can justify increasing defense spending which pumps more government dollars into an ailing economy.

A co-worker of my wife showed her a poll the other day (I'm still trying to get a link) taken in Iraq.  It showed that the rank & file soldiers are almost unanimous in their conviction to vote against Bush.  The only "soldiers" that were for Bush & the handling of Iraq (war) were the officers; who aren't on the front lines risking their butts on a hourly basis.
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Offline spursfan101

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2004, 10:39:20 AM »
How many billions have been spent in Iraq? Anybody know?
Paul

Offline westkoast

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2004, 10:47:01 AM »
Joe what I was saying the UN was right about was the whole going to invade Iraq.  The rest of the UN was against it, we were for it.  The UN felt that we did not have enough information nor did they feel Iraq threatend the US.  Im not talking about fuel missles or ones that travel farther than allowed because frankly Iraq didn't have weapons that could be launced from Iraq that would hit the US.  We went in because the US was threatend.  Sadaam had WMDs that could harm the American people according to our govt.  These WMDs the govt spoke about were chemical and possibly biological.  The ban put in place after the gulf war on those missle sizes and kinds of missles were to protect countries surrounding Iraq, like Kuwait.  Nothing that was found would have been able to hit us.  If this whole thing was about up holding the word of the UN then I wouldnt be debating this....but it wasnt.  Also if the whole thing was about up holding the word of the UN, why did we openly defy the rest of the UN by going in?  Sounds like Bush administration smoke screen to me.  We are all for the UN until the rest of the nations dont agree with us, but heaven forbid another country flip the script.

I feel we jumped into Iraq TOO fast and for the wrong reasons.  Yes, blame falls on the intelligence agencies involved but people dont want to place any blame on the administration for not back checking, planning a little better, and then going on to proclaim a premature victory.  If they did throughly back check the information for a long period of time how come it went from Sadaam having chemical and possibly biological weapons to the closest thing we've found is a hallowed out truck that at first was a mobile chemical lab.......then later was said to be something else by the AP.

One thing no one has yet to mention is that the US broke international law by going after Iraq.  We won't even be held accountable but we broke laws to handle someone else who broke some laws.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 11:18:53 AM by westkoast »
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Offline westkoast

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2004, 01:46:57 PM »
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How many billions have been spent in Iraq? Anybody know?
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/issues/m...highcost/us.pdf

We are at 136 billion and counting.....with another 50 million each year we stay beyond 2004.  Look at the amount of money spent on the military and the amount of money spent on homeland security.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 01:56:36 PM by westkoast »
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Offline ziggy

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My Letter from John Kerry!
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2004, 12:19:11 PM »
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First, the president has to get the promised international support so our men and women in uniform don't have to go it alone. It is late; the president must respond by moving this week to gain and regain international support.

Last spring, after too many months of resistance and delay, the president finally went back to the U.N. which passed Resolution 1546. It was the right thing to do -- but it was late.

That resolution calls on U.N. members to help in Iraq by providing troops, trainers for Iraq's security forces, a special brigade to protect the U.N. mission, more financial assistance, and real debt relief.

Three months later, not a single country has answered that call. And the president acts as if it doesn't matter.

The president should convene a summit meeting of the world's major powers and Iraq's neighbors, this week, in New York, where many leaders will attend the U.N. General Assembly. He should insist that they make good on that U.N. resolution. He should offer potential troop contributors specific, but critical roles, in training Iraqi security personnel and securing Iraq's borders. He should give other countries a stake in Iraq's future by encouraging them to help develop Iraq's oil resources and by letting them bid on contracts instead of locking them out of the reconstruction process.

This will be difficult. I and others have repeatedly recommended this from the very beginning. Delay has made only made it harder. After insulting allies and shredding alliances, this president may not have the trust and confidence to bring others to our side in Iraq. But we cannot hope to succeed unless we rebuild and lead strong alliances so that other nations share the burden with us. That is the only way to succeed.

Second, the president must get serious about training Iraqi security forces.

Last February, Secretary Rumsfeld claimed that more than 210,000 Iraqis were in uniform. Two weeks ago, he admitted that claim was exaggerated by more than 50 percent. Iraq, he said, now has 95,000 trained security forces.

But guess what? Neither number bears any relationship to the truth. For example, just 5,000 Iraqi soldiers have been fully trained, by the administration's own minimal standards. And of the 35,000 police now in uniform, not one has completed a 24-week field-training program. Is it any wonder that Iraqi security forces can't stop the insurgency or provide basic law and order?

The president should urgently expand the security forces training program inside and outside Iraq. He should strengthen the vetting of recruits, double classroom training time, and require follow-on field training. He should recruit thousands of qualified trainers from our allies, especially those who have no troops in Iraq. He should press our NATO allies to open training centers in their countries. And he should stop misleading the American people with phony, inflated numbers.

Third, the president must carry out a reconstruction plan that finally brings tangible benefits to the Iraqi people.

Last week, the administration admitted that its plan was a failure when it asked Congress for permission to radically revise spending priorities in Iraq. It took 17 months for them to understand that security is a priority, 17 months to figure out that boosting oil production is critical, 17 months to conclude that an Iraqi with a job is less likely to shoot at our soldiers.

One year ago, the administration asked for and received $18 billion to help the Iraqis and relieve the conditions that contribute to the insurgency. Today, less than a $1 billion of those funds have actually been spent. I said at the time that we had to rethink our policies and set standards of accountability. Now we're paying the price.

Now, the president should look at the whole reconstruction package, draw up a list of high visibility, quick impact projects, and cut through the red tape. He should use more Iraqi contractors and workers, instead of big corporations like Halliburton. He should stop paying companies under investigation for fraud or corruption. And he should fire the civilians in the Pentagon responsible for mismanaging the reconstruction effort.

Fourth, the president must take immediate, urgent, essential steps to guarantee the promised elections can be held next year.

Credible elections are key to producing an Iraqi government that enjoys the support of the Iraqi people and an assembly to write a Constitution that yields a viable power sharing arrangement.

Because Iraqis have no experience holding free and fair elections, the president agreed six months ago that the U.N. must play a central role. Yet today, just four months before Iraqis are supposed to go to the polls, the U.N. Secretary General and administration officials themselves say the elections are in grave doubt. Because the security situation is so bad and because not a single country has offered troops to protect the U.N. elections mission, the U.N. has less than 25 percent of the staff it needs in Iraq to get the job done.

The president should recruit troops from our friends and allies for a U.N. protection force. This won't be easy. But even countries that refused to put boots on the ground in Iraq should still help protect the U.N. We should also intensify the training of Iraqis to manage and guard the polling places that need to be opened. Otherwise, U.S forces would end up bearing those burdens alone.

This is what has to be done. This is what I would do as president today. But we cannot afford to wait until January. President Bush owes it to the American people to tell the truth and put Iraq on the right track. Even more, he owes it to our troops and their families, whose sacrifice is a testament to the best of America.

The principles that should guide American policy in Iraq now and in the future are clear: We must make Iraq the world's responsibility, because the world has a stake in the outcome and others should share the burden. We must effectively train Iraqis, because they should be responsible for their own security. We must move forward with reconstruction, because that's essential to stop the spread of terror. And we must help Iraqis achieve a viable government, because it's up to them to run their own country. That's the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home.

 
Kerry and the Other "F"-word
The Democratic candidate doesn't want to talk about how to deal with Falluja.
by Fred Barnes
09/23/2004 3:00:00 PM

JOHN KERRY'S NEW POLICY on Iraq is like a doughnut. It has a big hole in the middle. The Kerry four-point plan calls for recruiting more allies to help in Iraq, accelerating the training of Iraqi soldiers, pushing ahead on reconstruction, and guaranteeing a national election by next January. All that's fine. But none of it can happen unless the terrorists who've made the Iraqi city of Falluja their sanctuary and staging point for attacks and bombings are defeated. Kerry has no plan for dealing with the terrorists. Falluja is the hole in Kerry's doughnut.

In fact, the f-word--Falluja--was mentioned only once in Kerry's speech Monday outlining his Iraq strategy. He identified the city as a breeding ground "for terrorists who are free to plot and launch attacks against our soldiers." Indeed, it is exactly that. But then he went on to lay out his new plan without offering a scheme for subduing Falluja. He simply assumed, tacitly, that the single biggest problem in Iraq had been solved. Otherwise, his proposal for "high visibility, quick impact" reconstruction projects, for example, makes no sense. It couldn't happen unless Falluja had been vanquished. Of course, it's not just Falluja that's a problem now. A few other cities in the Sunni Triangle north and west of Baghdad are dominated by terrorists, too. Kerry has no plan for overcoming them either.

Falluja has been the greatest impediment to progress in Iraq since Saddam Hussein was toppled in April 2003. American Marines had nearly conquered the city last  
April when they were called off. There were concerns among Iraqi political leaders and American officials that too many civilians were being killed. The decision was bucked to the Bush administration in Washington, which decided to call for a halt. Instead, a brigade of former Iraqi soldiers was sent into Falluja in hopes it would persuade the terrorists to hand over their weapons. That tactic failed and the brigade was later disbanded.

There are two basic strategies for conquering Falluja and capturing or killing the terrorists. The one being followed by the U.S. military today is to squeeze the city gradually, reducing the area controlled by the terrorists. By the end of the year, American forces are expected to stage a final effort to seize the city. The other strategy, favored by Sen. John McCain, is to take Falluja by attacking it forcefully, the sooner the better. This might be bloody, but, according to that strategy, the price would be worth paying in the long run.

It's clear that a national election couldn't be conducted in all of Iraq if the terrorists centered in Falluja are still free to operate. Nor would allies who've balked at helping in Iraq be inclined to send troops or other personnel as long as terrorism is rampant. And reconstruction projects, now delayed or halted entirely because of terrorism, couldn't move ahead either. The name of the game in Iraq now is: Defeat the terrorists.

Both the Bush and McCain strategies are risky and would probably produce many American and Iraqi casualties. Under the Kerry plan, however, there would be no casualties, since he doesn't broach the overriding Falluja problem. This oversight could have been erased the day after Kerry's big Iraq speech when he held his first press conference in weeks. But, again, Kerry offered no strategy for seizing Falluja and the other troublesome towns. He left the hole in the doughnut.

 
 
 
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2004, 12:26:20 PM »
Ziggy..I apperciate you posting articles from the other point of view.  I may not agree with the ones youve posted but its nice to hear the other side.   This one was actually very intresting and something Kerry def needs to outline.  Bush too. Always two sides to everything and I feel for someone to make the best decision they need to listen to both sides.

But since you are a Bush supporter I take back any of my props   :D
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 12:27:07 PM by westkoast »
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« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2004, 12:31:42 PM »
Some related material.  The opening lines are why I like George Will.

By George F. Will
NewsweekSept. 27 issue - This grotesque presidential campaign, which every day subtracts from the nation's understanding of its deepening dilemmas, cannot end soon enough, or well. Concerning the issue that eclipses all others—the wars in Iraq and against Islamic terrorists—reasonable people can be simultaneously to the right of President Bush and to the left of John Kerry.


 
To the right of Bush: More forces may be needed—and more forceful employment of them. In the truncated conquest of Fallujah, U.S. commanders ignored Napoleon's axiom: "If you start to take Vienna—take Vienna." Flinching may have been prudent, although finishing the conquest might not have added much to the odium surrounding the U.S. presence in Iraq. And not crushing the insurgency in Fallujah may have accelerated, even formalized, the disintegration of Iraq. How do the administration's nation-builders think elections are going to be held in this maelstrom?

To the left of Kerry: Recently he said that even if he had known then what we know now, he would have voted to authorize the war. That is, even knowing that Saddam Hussein was not yet nearly the danger that intelligence guesses said he was, and even experiencing the occupation's rapidly multiplying horrors, Kerry says: Make me president and I will more deftly implement essentially the same policy.

Who believes there are now fewer terrorists in the world than there were three years ago? The administration should be judged as it wants to be judged, by its performance regarding the issue it says should decide the election—national security. However, the opposition party is presenting an appallingly flaccid opposition. Teddy Roosevelt's description of William Howard Taft fits Kerry: "feebly well-meaning."

He needs to resuscitate his campaign by making himself an interesting alternative to Bush. However, he seems incapable of mounting what the nation needs—a root-and-branch critique of the stunningly anticonservative idea animating the administration's policy. The idea, a tenet of neoconservatism, is that all nations are more or less ready for democracy. So nation-building should be a piece of cake—never mind the winding, arduous, uphill hike the West took from Runnymede and Magna Charta in 1215 to Philadelphia in 1787.

 
 
Last week in The Washington Post, Robert Kagan, a leading neoconservative, wrote a column that illustrates why neoconservatives alarm almost everyone who isn't one—and especially dismay real conservatives. He was responding to Vladimir Putin's quick-step march into authoritarianism—Bonapartism with a semi-civilian face. Putin is scrapping direct popular election of Russia's governors, and will have Parliament elected on the basis of slates compiled by parties he largely controls. This is not a change of direction; it is an acceleration of a process already far advanced. It is adding sinews to Putin's existing semi-dictatorship, which is buttressed by his control of television.

Kagan thinks Putin's Russia should be Bush's next reclamation project, starting right now. Kagan does not exactly mean regime change; instead, he favors stern tutoring in democratic niceties. You might think America has its hands full democratizing Iraq. But Kagan says Russia is today's test of "how committed [Bush] really is to the cause of democracy around the world."

Kagan says "much depends on what Bush does and says in the coming days" and "a great deal is riding on whether President Bush can muster the will to denounce" Putin. Much? A great deal? Please. Will Putin retreat under the heat of a Bush scowl? Kagan says that unless Bush, while insisting on democracy in the Middle East, also denounces Putin, Bush will seem guilty of a "glaring" double standard. But that is the problem with neoconservative naivete that seeks to apply a single standard to all the nations of this naughty world.

"A dictatorial Russia," says Kagan, "is at least as dangerous to U.S. interests as a dictatorial Iraq." Oh? Then perhaps regime change is required in Russia after all.

Kagan knows that "we will pay a price" if Bush denounces Putin, and there may be "a loss of Russian cooperation" if Bush "goes further, as he should, and begins taking tangible actions in the economic and political spheres to express U.S. disapproval." This is neoconservative monomania.

There is no more urgent U.S. priority than Russian cooperation in securing Soviet-era fissile material that could fuel nuclear terrorism. Should we sacrifice that just to express impotent disapproval?

Warning that Russia might slide into tyranny, Kagan asks: "Is that the legacy President Bush wants to leave behind?" Think about that. Russia's fate will be Bush's "legacy"? Kagan, a highly intelligent and very representative neoconservative, evidently believes it is in Bush's power to determine Russia's fate.

Lurking there is the idea behind foreign-policy overreaching—the anticonservative delusion that political will can control the world. And Kerry has nothing to say about it.
 

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2004, 01:47:20 PM »
Quote
Some related material.  The opening lines are why I like George Will.

By George F. Will
NewsweekSept. 27 issue - This grotesque presidential campaign, which every day subtracts from the nation's understanding of its deepening dilemmas, cannot end soon enough, or well. Concerning the issue that eclipses all others—the wars in Iraq and against Islamic terrorists—reasonable people can be simultaneously to the right of President Bush and to the left of John Kerry.
 
I read this as well.   I liked it, and I think had a fascinating perspective neo-con view and approach.  George Will is also the perfect antidote to the liberal elites view that conservatives are between Neanderthal and Cro Magnon.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2004, 02:17:42 PM »
Quote
Quote
Some related material.  The opening lines are why I like George Will.

By George F. Will
NewsweekSept. 27 issue - This grotesque presidential campaign, which every day subtracts from the nation's understanding of its deepening dilemmas, cannot end soon enough, or well. Concerning the issue that eclipses all others—the wars in Iraq and against Islamic terrorists—reasonable people can be simultaneously to the right of President Bush and to the left of John Kerry.
 
 George Will is also the perfect antidote to the liberal elites view that conservatives are between Neanderthal and Cro Magnon.
More like old and out of touch
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jn

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« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2004, 03:05:42 PM »
But then again I saw Pat Buchanan saying the same thing and he IS a Neanderthal, or at least he plays to Neanderthals.  Agreeing with Pat makes me ill.  

Will has excellent command of the English language, though he gets pretty snobby and elitist in his own right.  He didn't use the phrase in this article but in talking about Iraq and other states failure to adopt American style Democracy Will has said that other countries lack "cultural maturity", which is a pretty condescending thing to say.  

Anyhoo this goes along with one of my main arguments against invading Iraq. It took centuries of history, immense bloodshed and an incredibly lucky convergence of factors to create American democracy.  Those factors were simply not in place in Iraq.  A lot of people of various political stripes believed that, of all Middle Eastern/Muslim countries, Iraq had the best chance of form something resembling a free society.  Reasons given included the history of secularism, the potential wealth and current infrastructure, overall education and the many Iraqi exiles living in the West who would return.  

Ultimately none of that matters in the face of the easily predictable chaos.  Right off the bat the decision to send in a low number of troops so Rummy could stroke his ego at Colin Powells expense combined with the decision to disband the Iraqi Army without a thorough disarming meant there was huge pool of people and weapons hiding in wait to start an insurgency.  That also means it's easy to create chaos by destroying the infrascture and revenue sources, (businesses that cooperate with the occupiers and oil pipelines.) and the intimidation and murder of the people who are trying to help create order.

We technically are offering the Iraqi's some form of Western style freedom.  However right now what they see is tanks, bombs, Abu Gharaib, chaos and fear.  It's a natural human instinct to desire order and short term survival, even the order of Tyrants like Sadaam, over the promises of future benefits that result from democracy.  


 

Offline Ted

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« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2004, 03:21:52 PM »
The idea that we should interfere with Russia is madness. Totally agree with Will on this one.
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