Author Topic: How are EITHER team in the EC . . .  (Read 6691 times)

Guest_Randy

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2004, 02:47:39 PM »
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eh, easy there randy.  SA obviously has the best single player (Duncan > Wallace), but...
Wallace (whichever other one) > Rasho
and Okur > either Willis, Horry or Rose

It's certainly not "No Contest", like you so eloquently put it.
My point was about offense dbods (since that was the point that Joe was making)and TD is definately better than Rasheed and Rasho is definately better than Ben.

And yes, I would take Rose, Willis and Horry over Okur and Campbell -- at least at this point in his career -- have you seen what he is doing against Indy's "tough" defense?

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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2004, 03:09:09 PM »
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The Lakers are much more talented than Detroit, but talent doesn't allways win.  THe Lakers, in general, are the laziest basketball team ever, Kobe excepted.  

Detroit plays the stingiest defense in the league and has lots of big men to throw at Shaq and Karl.  Kobe will have his hands full dealing with Prince and Hamilton.  

Jeramine O'Neill even with the injuries, is much quicker than Shaq.  He could get around  Ben Wallace, I'm not so sure about Shaq.  And poor Karl who spent the last series chasing KG around, gets to chase Rashid Wallace now.

Lakers in 6.
Kobe excepted? Karl Malone is hardly lazy, I daresay he hustles for his age even more than Kobe, and Malone can handle Wallace just fine, he held his own against the 2 premier power forwards in the NBA and Wallace is hardly in their league.

We must remember, while Detroits defense is stingy it is still and EC defense with its stats padded because of their opponents, and it is not in the same class as San Antonio's and LA managed to get past them, and they are by far the toughest team LA has faced or will face this year.

LA has also proven that all the early season hype about their defensive potential was more than hype once the playoffs came around, if Detroit can't even manage 70 points against the Pacers LA's defense will really make them look anemic.

I know you say Lakers in 6 Rick, but I think it is more like LA in 5, I don't see the Pistons as capable of stopping LA defensively, maybe slowing them down, but no way they slow them down enough to outscore them, and that is where they have no chance.
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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2004, 03:34:06 PM »
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Malone will be just as tired guarding Rasheed as he was guarding Garnett.

Brown will only run if he can't grind down LA in the halfcourt.  LA has been too lazy to execute well in the half-court and Detroit's effort will make them even lazier. Detroit execute well as long as they don't have to score a lot of points.  Hamilton will be a big problem for LA.
I don't remember seeing Malone get tired against Garnett, I saw him work him and make him earn every point he scored, Garnett was the one who looked tired, tired and whipped. Wallace is not this big scary monster you seem to think he is, and if he plays dirty to attempt to frustrate Shaq or Karl, he will be so outmatched by Malone in that category I see him getting tee'd up every game. This isn't even a point for discussion, if Malone can handle Duncan and Garnett in back to back series, I'm sure he's licking his chops at only having to contend with Rasheed Wallace for 4, maybe 5 games.

As far as Brown trying to grind LA down in the half court, he tries that to a Laker team who lives for the half court set and LA is above 100 points every game and this series doesn't go 5. You're deluding yourself if you think forcing a half court game on LA works to Detroits advantage. And defensively Hamilton can be doubled almost with impunity given he is Detroit's only scoring threat, Hamilton is toast.
Dan

Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2004, 05:16:23 AM »
The idea behind Wallace, Okur, Campbell > Nesterovic, Duncan, Rose, Willis is a simple one:  with the Spurs line-up of big men, you're getting ONE LOOK - low-post to midrange.  You're not seeing good pick-and-roll type players in San An.  You're not seeing 3-point threats at center in San An.  The idea here is to make Shaq work at doing different things rather than allowing him to settle in and play one style of game.  Historically, Shaq has never been one of the most adaptable players.

Likewise, no team has ever really said, "We want to go strong directly at Shaq."  Most teams avoid O'Neal rather than taking the game directly at him.

Face it - there are only two times when Shaq is ineffective:  1) when he's on the bench instead of in the game, and 2) when he's playing half-@$$ed.  The only ways to get Jackson to bench Shaq is to get Shaq in foul trouble - which means you have to attack him, or get him ejected for doing something stupid - which means you have to attack him.  And the only ways you can get Shaq to play half-@$$ed are 1) make him upset with his teammates, or 2)  make the series uncompetitive.  Since doing the 2nd would cause you to lose the series, that's probably a good one to rule out as a strategy.

If I'm Shaq's opponent, I want Shaq running his mouth about how bad those teammates that get him the ball are, and how he's the man and the other players are just kids on the playground.  I want Shaq concentrating on feeding his ego rather than on beating my team.  And when I'm on the court, I'm going to prod Shaq about it - "When are they gonna swing it to you?  How long has it been since they've run a play for you?"

If Shaq goes for 30 and 15, this series is over.  And Detroit doesn't have anyone that can keep Shaq from going for 30 and 15.  So you have to make sure that LA doesn't go to Shaq, because he won't work himself into someone else's game, but rely on them to come to him.  In this case, if Mohammad doesn't go to the mountain, the mountain is going to whine about it instead of going to Mohammad.

I want to see Shaq try to step in and draw a charge.  Oh, sure, it's going to hurt me...but if winning isn't worth some pain, why play?

You don't attack Shaq for what he isn't - we've seen over and over that that doesn't work, and I see no reason to believe it would work this time;  you attack him with what he *IS*.  No one has tried that.  It won't work in the regular season, because you play a team one night and you're gone the next.

And this strategy won't work in Game 1...you've got to let the damage be done in the Laker locker room, and that's going to take a game.

Think of it this way:  the Pistons, in my opinion, have only one advantage over the Lakers' key players:  DISCIPLINE.  The Laker role players have discipline...and Karl Malone has significant discipline.  But Shaq, Payton, and Kobe aren't disciplined players.  Therefore, the only way Detroit can win is to play the game so that the more displined team has the most advantages.

Don't play the game - play the human factor.


                                                  Joe
 
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2004, 09:04:12 AM »
You know its sad when fans of b-ball are saying the only way Detroit has a chance is if they pick tactics like Joe mentioned...which I dont disagree with.  Pretty much thats the only way Detroit wins in this series.  Only Shaq's ego can get them to loose here.  Anything else probably wont work.

Detroit had problems scoring on Indy when Ron Artest was WELL below his normal defensive level and their best help defender/core of the defense was playing at 70-80%.  Id say this Laker defense is a little different than Indy's.  
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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2004, 10:32:15 AM »
What's so "sad" about that, westkoast?  No one has a problem blowing by a player with inferior speed.  No one has a problem doubling off of a bad shooter and forcing him to beat you with his shot.  Why should anyone have a problem with getting into the head of a player who tends to demotivate his teammates?  

As long as the game is played within the rules and without intent to injure, I'm for allowing a team to choose whatever tactic works best.  That's the best way to get egoes back in check and teamwork re-infused into the game.

Telling a Mehmet Okur to drive aggressively on Shaq after getting Shaq to come out and challenge a 3-pointer with the knowledge that Okur's going to get hit really hard for doing it is just smart basketball.  I personally look at it this way:  one way or the other, Detroit is going to get punished by Shaq physically.  It only makes sense that Detroit chooses to get punished in a way that will limit Shaq's ability to continue that punishment.

Shaq doesn't pick up enough offensive fouls to limit his minutes significantly.  That means if you want him hampered by foul trouble, you've got to challenge him.  He's the last line of defense, and he knows it - people who play that way should be susceptible to foul trouble.  Yet, in all this time, no one has ever made challenging Shaq a priority.

This isn't a pick-up game.  This is organized basketball.  You can't continue to approach the game as being the former.
 
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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2004, 10:44:50 AM »
Joe,

Why would you think for a second that the center 3-pt tactic is going to work.  It will fail just like it always fails.  The Lakers challenged the best 3-pt shooters in the league, SA, and they failed, so will the average journeymen Piston shooters.  Not to mention Shaq will probably not guard the outside shooting center anyway, Malone will.  The only way you can force Shaq to play an outside shooting center is to put in an outside shooting PF along side him.  Therefore if you're going to try and beat the Lakers with R. Wallace and Okur as your bigment and sit B. Wallace then this series will be over in 4 games (or LESS ;) )!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 10:46:24 AM by WayOutWest »
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2004, 12:18:54 PM »
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What's so "sad" about that, westkoast?  No one has a problem blowing by a player with inferior speed.  No one has a problem doubling off of a bad shooter and forcing him to beat you with his shot.  Why should anyone have a problem with getting into the head of a player who tends to demotivate his teammates? 

As long as the game is played within the rules and without intent to injure, I'm for allowing a team to choose whatever tactic works best.  That's the best way to get egoes back in check and teamwork re-infused into the game.

Telling a Mehmet Okur to drive aggressively on Shaq after getting Shaq to come out and challenge a 3-pointer with the knowledge that Okur's going to get hit really hard for doing it is just smart basketball.  I personally look at it this way:  one way or the other, Detroit is going to get punished by Shaq physically.  It only makes sense that Detroit chooses to get punished in a way that will limit Shaq's ability to continue that punishment.

Shaq doesn't pick up enough offensive fouls to limit his minutes significantly.  That means if you want him hampered by foul trouble, you've got to challenge him.  He's the last line of defense, and he knows it - people who play that way should be susceptible to foul trouble.  Yet, in all this time, no one has ever made challenging Shaq a priority.

This isn't a pick-up game.  This is organized basketball.  You can't continue to approach the game as being the former.
You are comparing apples and oranges with your 'blowing by' comparison.  Blowing by a defender is part of atheletic ability, which is what sports compeitition is primarly based on (Yes I know there is other factors).  The sad part is that the only way (keyword only) that Detroit can beat the Lakers is by using these kinds of tactics.  Their skill and talent will not get it done.  Last time I checked people watch sports to see athletes use their skill, talent, and atheltic ability to compete.  Do you not see the problem with using this as their main attack at the Lakers?  Pretty much you are telling the team as a whole that they cannot compete with this team the normal way teams compete.  They have to resort to mind games because they do not have the talent, skill, or expierence to deal with the Lakers.  You dont see a problem with that?  Sounds to me like they are already in that loose mentality if they get away from what got them to the finals in the first place.......which was tough defense and huge contributions from Wallace/Wallace and Rip.  That would be finals suicide for Brown if he made comments like that.

However, I do agree that a team should do whatever it needs to do to win.  If that includes whispering in Shaq's ear then so be it.  This is the NBA finals so whatever works is what needs to be done.  I just think its sad that this is really the only way to compete....they are not that horrible of a team.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 12:33:00 PM by westkoast »
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Guest_Randy

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2004, 12:59:02 PM »
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What's so "sad" about that, westkoast?  No one has a problem blowing by a player with inferior speed.  No one has a problem doubling off of a bad shooter and forcing him to beat you with his shot.  Why should anyone have a problem with getting into the head of a player who tends to demotivate his teammates?  

As long as the game is played within the rules and without intent to injure, I'm for allowing a team to choose whatever tactic works best.  That's the best way to get egoes back in check and teamwork re-infused into the game.

Telling a Mehmet Okur to drive aggressively on Shaq after getting Shaq to come out and challenge a 3-pointer with the knowledge that Okur's going to get hit really hard for doing it is just smart basketball.  I personally look at it this way:  one way or the other, Detroit is going to get punished by Shaq physically.  It only makes sense that Detroit chooses to get punished in a way that will limit Shaq's ability to continue that punishment.

Shaq doesn't pick up enough offensive fouls to limit his minutes significantly.  That means if you want him hampered by foul trouble, you've got to challenge him.  He's the last line of defense, and he knows it - people who play that way should be susceptible to foul trouble.  Yet, in all this time, no one has ever made challenging Shaq a priority.

This isn't a pick-up game.  This is organized basketball.  You can't continue to approach the game as being the former.
Joe, why would you WANT Shaq to close out on Okur at the 3 point line?  He isn't a great shooter out there (35% in the regular season and 25% in the postseason).  I'd take my chances with that ANY day -- and Okur has ZERO chance of stopping Shaq in the post -- as a Laker fan I LOVE that match up!  Shaq scores 35 to 40 and hauls in 20 boards against Okur and Okur knocks down 30% of his 3 pointers and gets 20 points and the Lakers WIN!  Detroit has to try and double and triple team leaving Fish, Kobe, George and Payton to shoot wide open looks.  

As for Rasheed Wallace being a three point shot, answer this:  who would you RATHER have shooting a 3 point shot?  Sheed or KG?  Malone will do JUST fine guarding Sheed.

Shaq DOESN'T need to respect the 3 point shooting of the Pistons CENTERS -- it's Karl's job to respect Sheed's ability to shoot from long range and Shaq is a GREAT weakside help.  Sheed doesn't like taking the ball to the hoop anyway.  And if you disrespect Okur's 3 point shot (which you need to do if you are the Lakers) then you give him 6 feet and dare him to shoot -- it doesn't give Okur the possibilities of driving to the hole and it gives Shaq room to get back and get rebounds.

Outside of Okur, who is going to shoot the ball from the 3 point line?  
Ben Wallace?  Yeah, he doesn't even have Shaq's range -- ZERO offense from Big Ben except from offensive putbacks and when he is playing for Shaq -- don't look for too many of those possibilities.  
Elden Campbell?  Umm, the guy is a solid 18' shooter -- nothing more.  Rasho is a better outside shooter than Campbell and Campbell ISN'T going to drive by anyone -- he didn't do much of that in his prime.  Campbell will do the BEST job on Shaq in one-on-one post defense but Campbell doesn't handle the ball well and is a very poor passer (believe me, I KNOW this as a Laker fan) so you welcome him to the floor -- he's a poor man's version of Rasho (who is a poor man's version of DRob).
Mehmet Okur?  Okay, you'd LOVE to have this guy playing against Shaq in the post -- Shaq scores HUGE on defense and Okur ends up in foul trouble anyway.  Shaq stands back 6 to 8 feet from the 3 point line and dares Okur to shoot the ball -- heck, taunt the guy -- TELL him to shoot the ball.  He shoots the best he has in the playoffs -- 30% and plays 15 minutes -- all 15 minutes of which allows Shaq to earn half of his 40/20 against him cause this guy is a poor defensive post player and he CAN'T guard Shaq.

I am amazed that this is the tactic you want to go with -- it has ZERO chance of working.  There isn't anyone who can blow by Shaq on this team offensively outside of Okur and you MAKE Okur shoot from outside -- even dare him too and then you allow Shaq to punish him on the other end.  This is a horrible strategy, IMO, you would be much better, IMO, having Campbell and Wallace play Shaq, at least they can keep him below the 35 to 40/20 mark with some help.

 

Offline RolandoBlackman

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« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2004, 01:09:55 PM »
Hey y'all!

I agree with the contention that Ron Artest is over-rated - his defensive game rests on a foundation of intimidation.  This idea has been well-established in everyone's mind from the get-go - remember him as a rookie breaking MJ's ribs in a practice before he even stepped on an NBA court?  

I have tried to think of any other player in the past or present who has an over-all game (nasty) like Artest at his position...I drew a blank.  Artest is definitely on my 'detest' list, as this point.

-RB

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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2004, 03:24:11 PM »
Look - I'm not asking Ben Wallace and Elden Campbell to heave up any 3-pointers.  I'm not even asking Okur to heave up that many - just enough to get Shaq to come out of the paint, thereby exposing Shaq to foul possibilities on an Okur drive.  A collision outside of the paint will likely draw a foul call.  That's my main goal for Okur.  The only way he can do that is to extend the range of the defense.

And granted, 25% from outside won't cut it.  That's why the focus *RIGHT* *NOW* has to be getting Okur lots of 3-point looks in practice.

You ask, "What about when Shaq's on offense?"  My answer is: 1) I don't want Shaq on offense - I want him sitting on the bench in foul trouble, and 2) I want Shaq's teammates to not give Shaq the ball when he's in the game.  The best chance of that happening is by getting Shaq to gripe at his teammates.

If the Lakers are disciplined - if they can beat Detroit in a game decided by discipline - then you offer your hand and you say "Good game."  But Detroit isn't going to beat LA if they try to hold LA to 70 points a game.  In a slow-down game, which is what that would have to be, O'Neal can dominate the Piston centers.  He may get 40 of those 70 by himself.  And trying to run-run-run will get the Pistons blown out by the superior offensive team.

The key is stopping Shaq.  I've yet to see folks really come up with ways to stop Shaq, whereas I'm throwing 2 of them out there - foul trouble and getting his teammates angry at him.

I think we all agree that if Shaq dominates, the series is over.  So - if you were the opposing coach, how would you try to prevent Shaq from dominating?

 
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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2004, 03:56:58 PM »
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Why would you think for a second that the center 3-pt tactic is going to work. It will fail just like it always fails. The Lakers challenged the best 3-pt shooters in the league, SA, and they failed, so will the average journeymen Piston shooters.

Why do I think it would work?

1.  Nothing is lost by trying, because the Pistons won't win any other way.
2.  It hasn't been tried.
3.  It's insulting to the Lakers, which plays into the mind game you want to play against Shaq in the first place.

Remember that I'm not looking for 3-pointers.  I'm looking for the THREAT of 3-pointers exposing Shaq in the middle of the court rather than in the lane.  Shaq won't get the calls out on the floor whereas he will get more of them in the lane.  And I'm not looking at this for all the players.  I don't want to see Prince, Billups, or Hamilton take a 3-pointer unless it's necessary.  I want Okur and Rasheed Wallace out there.  Malone will guard one - fine - I want to go to the OTHER.  I WANT TO PULL SHAQ OUT OF THE LANE.  I WANT SHAQ TO RUN HARD.

San An didn't try this:  they put Turkoglu and Horry and Bowen and Ginobili at the 3-point line.  Those aren't the guys Shaq covers.  He's on Nesterovic, Willis, Duncan, Rose, etc.

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Do you not see the problem with using this as their main attack at the Lakers? Pretty much you are telling the team as a whole that they cannot compete with this team the normal way teams compete. They have to resort to mind games because they do not have the talent, skill, or expierence to deal with the Lakers. You dont see a problem with that? Sounds to me like they are already in that loose mentality if they get away from what got them to the finals in the first place.......which was tough defense and huge contributions from Wallace/Wallace and Rip. That would be finals suicide for Brown if he made comments like that.

If the Pistons are too prideful to realize that the strategy I outlined is their best chance, then they're doomed anyway, so why should I care?  If these guys have it drilled into them that the best team always wins, why compete?  By record, Detroit isn't the better team, and shouldn't win.  They don't have the advantage of home court.  They don't have the better players.  Believing anything else is simple avoidance of the truth, and isn't going to get them any further.

LOTS of games and serieses have been won by "mind games."  Heck look at the old New York vs. Miami games.  Look at the old LA/Utah serieses.  

The margin of error for Detroit to win this way is slim.  The margin of error for any other way is non-existent.  Does anyone seriously believe Detroit can win if O'Neal plays 35-40 minutes, and averages 30-40 points and 13-20 rebounds?  I want to see O'Neal in the 20 minute range - going 4-for-6 from the field with 6 rebounds.  If that's what LA gets out of Shaq, LA will be hurting.

To beat the unbeatable, Detroit has to first stop the unstoppable.  Of course, it's tough as hell to do...if it were easy, everyone would do it, and if everyone did it, LA wouldn't be considered "unbeatable" for very long.

If Detroit wants to beat LA in ways which LA is superior, I don't consider that anything other than stupid - the same way I considered it stupid when Karl Malone tried to prove his outside shooting ability against the Bulls.  You don't try to compete against a superior competitor by besting him with his skills.  You try to prevent him from using his skills.  And that's the entire Detroit philosophy - at least so far.

 
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Guest_Randy

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« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2004, 04:58:47 PM »
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Remember that I'm not looking for 3-pointers. I'm looking for the THREAT of 3-pointers exposing Shaq in the middle of the court rather than in the lane.

My point, Joe, is that if I were PJ, I would simply tell Shaq not to go out to guard the 3 -- let them shoot it -- if that's the way Detroit is going to play, I would rather have the 3 backcourt players (and Malone, if necessary) rotating on the arch than have Shaq playing someone on the 3 point line.  And, frankly, I don't think that Okur is a good enough 3 point shooter to even WANT Shaq out there guarding him.  If you don't guard him on the 3 point line, then your offensive scheme is shot.

Quote
San An didn't try this: they put Turkoglu and Horry and Bowen and Ginobili at the 3-point line. Those aren't the guys Shaq covers. He's on Nesterovic, Willis, Duncan, Rose, etc.

I can't think of but two teams in the league who could use this strategy successfully and Detroit isn't one of them -- SacTown and possibly Dallas are the only two players who could pull off this strategy.  Vlade CAN hit the three (although, again, I would make him beat you from there) and if Dallas went small, they could too (but again, Shaq is going to kill them in the paint on the other end of the floor).  

And no, SA, didn't try that strategy because in order to make it work, you have to have 5 players who can ALL hit the 3 -- and you have them all out at the 3 point line.  When you do that, you simply make it easy for the backcourt players to be able to rotate to the ball because there isn't enough spacing between the players.  Not to mention, you have to have a PF and C who BOTH are legit threats at the 3 point line -- and I can't think of anyone outside SacTown and Dallas who have that kind of personnel -- and I would question that those teams have that (unless they both want to go small and then Shaq and Malone would kill them in the paint and on the boards).

Quote
I WANT TO PULL SHAQ OUT OF THE LANE. I WANT SHAQ TO RUN HARD.

So Detroit's going to be a "run and gun" team in the finals?  They like to push the ball when possible but it's not because of their big men.  Sheed can finish on the fastbreak but Detroit's frontline isn't known for it's fastbreak offense -- so that means Shaq doesn't run hard.  

Actually, if you look at the game that the Pistons won (the second game they played), the Pistons won because Shaq was in foul trouble and played limited minutes but this is a SERIES -- not one game.  I actually expect Detroit to win one game -- but PJ is a great adjuster and Detroit just doesn't have much in the way of being able to adjust because of Shaq, Kobe and Malone (and a lot of very experienced role players).  

Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2004, 06:42:18 PM »
I didn't say I wanted this to be a fast-break game.  Detroit will lose that kind of a game.  I want Shaq - ONLY SHAQ - being forced to run hard.  I want him working harder than he's ever worked on the defensive end of the court - because if he does, no amount of touches will be enough to satisfy him.  The more he gripes at his teammates, the less they care about helping him.

Divide and conquer - it's the oldest strategy in the book.

I want Phil Jackson's time spent diffusing bad feelings in the locker room instead of building strategy.  I want Kobe, Payton, and Malone saying "we can win it without O'Neal."  (Malone won't go for it...but will Kobe and Payton?)

 
Joe

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Offline westkoast

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2004, 06:50:11 PM »
So Joe you see no problem, from a coaches point of view, with telling the players on your team that really the only way they can take this series is if they are  whispering in Shaq's ear and just on the court in general to get Shaq to turn on his teammates?

Personally that sounds to me like the coach doesn't believe in his teams abilities on the court and they are HOPING that this tactic will get Shaq to get away from his teammates for 4 games.  Aside from the fact that its going to kill moral and confidence, its a HUGE gamble to hope that this tactic will work for four games.  Sure it may work for one or 2 but how long before the rest of the team, including Shaq, say F it the title is on the line?  Thats what happend before the SA series and we saw what happend since.

I know it seems like you are getting attacked from all sides.  I dont think we are trying to "come at you".  You are quite the foe when it comes to verbal e-battles.  Remember, tts not our fault you are good at debating  B)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 06:52:00 PM by westkoast »
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