How are EITHER team in the EC . . .

[Rickortreat]

Look gang, the biggest weakness LA has is the ego's of Shaq and Kobe.  An inferior team like Detroit has to use this advantage if they're going to win any games.

Not to be insulting here, but Shaq is not the sharpest tack in the box!  Let him post up consistently on anyone and he'll get his and more, but use the other centers NOT B. WALLACE to foul him and send him to the line, especially when he gets to point blank range.  And, definitely run at him on defense.  A tired harrassed Shaq is the best thing for Detroit.  He has to come out to guard or LA gets called for illegal defense.  Detroit can score if they get Shaq outside or better yet, out of the game.  Don't make it easy for Shaq to get the ball in the paint.  Make him work hard, and front him and keep him out of the paint and you've got a shot.  

The next best thing is to frustrate Kobe.  Prince will do a very good job of making Kobe work.  Does anyone here think Phil will put Kobe on Hamilton?  Hamilton will tear up whoever is on him, if Kobe defends him, his offense will suffer.  Actually he'll have a tough time guarding Prince.  Anytime you can get Shaq and Malone to come outside, you post up Kobe with Prince.  

Working Shaq and Kobe on both ends of the floor is what Detroit needs to do.  Payton will have trouble with Hamilton, he's pretty tough to stop.  

I know many of you think the in the Half-court Detroit can't stop LA.  I think LA is incredibly lazy on offense- the reason they dropped the games against the other teams they defeated in the playoffs was poor half-court execution. Detroit will make them work very hard on offense in the half-court.  If they can slow down Shaq and Kobe, LA will have real problems generating offense.  Malone and Payton were big additions, good for Detroit that they're old.  The rest of LA is a bunch of role players that can't play (Well maybe Rush) They can't shoot well under pressure.

It's very easy to score when no-one's on you because they're preoccupied with Shaq and Kobe.  The more you slow them down, the more you hurt LA by asking their role players to keep them in the game.  If Detroit can get LA's role players to take the shots, they'll steal a game or two.   A tired Kobe gets it going by himself, instead of passing.  Keep Kobe selfish and working hard at both ends of the floor, and he stops breaking down your defense.  

The most devastating play LA has is Kobe driving, drawing a crowd, and passing to Shaq for an easy two.  Stop Kobe from driving by putting Prince on him, and LA gets out of their comfort zone.  They're too lazy to do anything else.  We've seen this in the other series.  The more Detroit stops the dynamic duo, the better their chances.  It could work.  It better, because this series will be over quick if it doesn't!  

The other thing is rebounding- Detroit will be able to rebound with LA, limiting their 2nd chance shots will be critical.  Getting run-outs off missed shots can keep Detroit in the game.  It's not a matter of size, but position and hustle. B. Wallace will get his boards.  

Let's not forget Detroit's pressure defense either.  Slow down Payton bringing the ball up will also be a major key. The triangle takes time, the less they have, the worse their execution will be.  Larry Brown knows all of this, and he will try to get his players to do everything to put LA into a bad situation.    

[Joe Vancil]

So Joe you see no problem, from a coaches point of view, with telling the players on your team that really the only way they can take this series is if they are whispering in Shaq's ear and just on the court in general to get Shaq to turn on his teammates?

If that's the truth, then I have no problem at all with it, because the players won't be able to avoid it forever.  I honestly think that if Detroit doesn't break the LA morale in the locker room, that if Detroit tries to win on talent, defense, fast-break, or keeping it close and hitting last-second shots, they'll lose.  I think that a Shaquille O'Neal who is working in unison with his teammates will carry his team past Detroit.  I honestly think that a Laker team divided against each other is the best chance Detroit has.  Payton and Malone will eventually say, "screw it, we want the title," but O'NEAL WON'T.  It has to be about him.  When Payton and Malone point the finger at SHAQ as the problem, as SHAQ that needs to adjust his attitude, SHAQ WON'T ADJUST.  Kobe might...in fact, Kobe probably would.  But not Shaq.  In the San An series, it was PHIL JACKSON who adjusted...not Shaq.

Shaq carries a bit of a chip on his shoulder that it's him versus the world.  My goal would be to make that chip heavier.

Personally that sounds to me like the coach doesn't believe in his teams abilities on the court and they are HOPING that this tactic will get Shaq to get away from his teammates for 4 games. Aside from the fact that its going to kill moral and confidence, its a HUGE gamble to hope that this tactic will work for four games. Sure it may work for one or 2 but how long before the rest of the team, including Shaq, say F it the title is on the line? Thats what happend before the SA series and we saw what happend since.

And it sounds to me like you think that a coach believing his team is better than the other team makes it true.  The statement to the team is "We are what we are, and what we are is smarter and more determined than Shaquille O'Neal - not bigger and not stronger.  We have to stop Shaq.  Here's how we're going to do it.  We're going to attack him when we're on the offense.  That means Okur and Campbell are going to get touches - Okur from the outside, Campbell on the inside.  Rasheed and Corliss, you occupy Malone...I don't want that <insert colorful name here> trying to do Shaq's work for him.  Ben, when you're out there, I want you to involve Shaq in pick-and-roll with Rip.  Rip, ignore Kobe, and go at Shaq.  If you want see if you can run Kobe into Shaq a couple of times - maybe remark to Kobe that Shaq's the best pick you've got because he's so slow on the way back up the court.  If they help Shaq on the pick-and-roll, find the open man.  Elden, in the post, go at Shaq.  You know he's going to come at you - so don't sit there and wait for it - make him pay.  I'll take an offensive foul or two out of you, if you can plant a good elbow on Shaq and stir him up a bit.  Same for you, Mehmet - if you pick up a charging foul knocking Shaq over, that's not something I wouldn't expect.  For every one of those you pick up, he'll pick up at least four for blocking."

The message to the team is "Shaq is slow, and Shaq is lazy, so sit his @$$ on the bench in foul trouble."  It's not a message of gloom and doom.  It's a message saying, "Shaq, Shaq, Shaq."  I want Campbell, Okur, and Ben Wallace HATING the man.  I want them to go strong at him.  I want them to challenge him.  I want them to take hit after hit from Shaq, and coming back for more.  I want them comparing bruises after the game.

For Shaq to get called for 6 fouls, he's going to have to commit about 8 blatant ones.  (That's not just Shaq, either, folk:  you could substitute the name Duncan, Garnett, Kidd, Iverson, or any other major draw in the NBA;  it's the reality of officiating.)  Heck, I might even announce a $100 bonus for anyone who draws a foul on Shaq.  I'll double the money to everyone if he fouls out.  I'll make it $500 a foul drawn if he fouls out playing less than 20 minutes.  $1000 a foul drawn if he fouls out playing less that 10 minutes.  WIN OR LOSE.

If the Pistons want to win the series, they'll do it with Shaq on the bench and the Pistons on the free throw line.  They won't win it any other way.  And they don't have a big margin of error for doing it.  They *MUST* win game 2, and then do something no other team has done - take 3, 4, and 5 at home.  I don't think Detroit can win game 1 at all if the Lakers halfway show up, which means game 1 has to be about setting the stage for Game 2.  And then, Detroit has to rely on home-court advantage.

Like I said, the margin for error is *TINY*.  But if you want to beat the Lakers, there's how to do it.
 

[WayOutWest]

The rest of LA is a bunch of role players that can't play (Well maybe Rush) They can't shoot well under pressure.

I was going to disect you post point by point but I read that line and figured you didn't know squat about the Lakers and it would be a waste of time.

[WayOutWest]

But if you want to beat the Lakers, there's how to do it.

First, Detroit will not beat LA.
Second, that's not how to do it anyway.
Third, you must have missed the SA series.

The only way to beat LA is to do what Philly did in 2001, ball pressure.  Ball pressure disrupts the Laker offense and therefore puts their defense in non-set positions.  That is the ONLY way to beat LA.  Philly was close in pretty much every game and took one game from the GREATEST NBA Playoffs team in history.

[Guest_Randy]

Look gang, the biggest weakness LA has is the ego's of Shaq and Kobe.  An inferior team like Detroit has to use this advantage if they're going to win any games.

Not to be insulting here, but Shaq is not the sharpest tack in the box!  Let him post up consistently on anyone and he'll get his and more, but use the other centers NOT B. WALLACE to foul him and send him to the line, especially when he gets to point blank range.  And, definitely run at him on defense.  A tired harrassed Shaq is the best thing for Detroit.  He has to come out to guard or LA gets called for illegal defense.  Detroit can score if they get Shaq outside or better yet, out of the game.  Don't make it easy for Shaq to get the ball in the paint.  Make him work hard, and front him and keep him out of the paint and you've got a shot.  

The next best thing is to frustrate Kobe.  Prince will do a very good job of making Kobe work.  Does anyone here think Phil will put Kobe on Hamilton?  Hamilton will tear up whoever is on him, if Kobe defends him, his offense will suffer.  Actually he'll have a tough time guarding Prince.  Anytime you can get Shaq and Malone to come outside, you post up Kobe with Prince.  

Working Shaq and Kobe on both ends of the floor is what Detroit needs to do.  Payton will have trouble with Hamilton, he's pretty tough to stop.  

I know many of you think the in the Half-court Detroit can't stop LA.  I think LA is incredibly lazy on offense- the reason they dropped the games against the other teams they defeated in the playoffs was poor half-court execution. Detroit will make them work very hard on offense in the half-court.  If they can slow down Shaq and Kobe, LA will have real problems generating offense.  Malone and Payton were big additions, good for Detroit that they're old.  The rest of LA is a bunch of role players that can't play (Well maybe Rush) They can't shoot well under pressure.

It's very easy to score when no-one's on you because they're preoccupied with Shaq and Kobe.  The more you slow them down, the more you hurt LA by asking their role players to keep them in the game.  If Detroit can get LA's role players to take the shots, they'll steal a game or two.   A tired Kobe gets it going by himself, instead of passing.  Keep Kobe selfish and working hard at both ends of the floor, and he stops breaking down your defense.  

The most devastating play LA has is Kobe driving, drawing a crowd, and passing to Shaq for an easy two.  Stop Kobe from driving by putting Prince on him, and LA gets out of their comfort zone.  They're too lazy to do anything else.  We've seen this in the other series.  The more Detroit stops the dynamic duo, the better their chances.  It could work.  It better, because this series will be over quick if it doesn't!  

The other thing is rebounding- Detroit will be able to rebound with LA, limiting their 2nd chance shots will be critical.  Getting run-outs off missed shots can keep Detroit in the game.  It's not a matter of size, but position and hustle. B. Wallace will get his boards.  

Let's not forget Detroit's pressure defense either.  Slow down Payton bringing the ball up will also be a major key. The triangle takes time, the less they have, the worse their execution will be.  Larry Brown knows all of this, and he will try to get his players to do everything to put LA into a bad situation.

Wow, Rick, after reading your post I'm beginning to wonder how in the world the Lakers ever managed to get into the NBA Finals.  Your post makes me think I should be thankful that they are IN the finals without any hope in winning it all again.

However, perhaps you missed the Lakers vs. SA and Minn. because the Spurs are the second best team in the NBA and the TWolves rank #3 -- Detroit doesn't rank in the top four -- you make them sound quite strong and the Lakers quite weak.  The Lakers DO have some weaknesses but you don't seem to actually point to any of them -- and the ones you do point out don't agree with the stats.

Shaq doesn't have to come out and guard the ball -- you CAN play zone -- there are no more illegal defenses for not guarding your man.  He CAN'T camp in the paint but he can stand outside the paint and watch Detroits centers try and shoot the ball from the arch all day if they want to try that -- Shaq ISN'T going to guard them out there and there isn't anyone on the team WORTH guarding out there.  Making Shaq go to the line IS a good strategy but only if you do it like Brown is already talking about doing it -- anytime Shaq gets within scoring distance (esp. deep in the paint) -- foul him and wrap him up so he can't get the bucket plus one.  Detroit has four big men to throw at Shaq but only one of them, Big Ben, applies any kind of defensive pressure in the paint.

Umm, this idea that Kobe can't guard Rip Hamilton?  Where did that come from and do facts make ANY difference in your argument?

Game 1 this year - Detroit vs. LA (with Kobe guarding Rip):
27 min.  3-7 fg   0-0 ft   0-0 3pt   3 reb   5 ass   0 stl   0 blk   4 TO   3 pf   6 pts.

Game 2 this yera - Detroit vs. LA (with Kobe guarding Rip):
32 min   6-11 fg   0-1 ft   2-2 3pt   0 reb   0 ass   1 stl   0 blk   2 TO   4 pf   14 pts.

If Rip is who you are hanging your hat on to lead the Pistons to victory, at least offensively, he is going to have to prove he can do it a LOT better than 6 and 14 points respectively.  IMO, Chauncy Billups is the ONLY player on Detroits team who can be a factor in the finals for Detroit -- Rip is going to get held in check.

Oh, and those role players who can't shoot?
In the 2004 playoffs to date:
  GP  - 37% fg   26% 3 pt  (certainly true)
  Fish - 44% fg   44% 3 pt -- how much better would you like him to shoot?
  George - 44% fg   39% 3 pt
  Rush - 41% fg   47% 3 pt
  Medvendenko  -  47% fg
  Malone  -  46% fg
  Averages to 43% from the field and 39% from the arch (GP, Fish, George and Rush)

With the exception of GP, every role player on the Lakers squad is shooting better than 40% from the field and 2 (almost 3) are shooting that percentage from the arch.  

NOW, let's look at who they are guarding:
IN the 2004 playoffs to date:
  James  -  39% fg   43% 3 pt
  Hamilton -  46% fg   38% 3 pt
  Prince  -  42% fg   30% 3 pt
  Billups  -  35% fg   32% 3pt
  Hunter  -  29% fg   23% 3 pt
  Williamson -  35% fg   0% 3pt
  Sheed  -  40% fg   24% 3pt
  Averages to 38% from the field and 29% from the arch (only counting James, Hamilton, Prince and Billups)

Also, please remember that the Lakers have done this against the Spurs, TWolves and Rockets -- Detroit has done this against Milwuakee, NJ and Indy.  Which has faced better defenses?  

[Joe Vancil]

Third, you must have missed the SA series.

Was that the one where:

Kevin Willis was going to the goal strong, trying to draw fouls?
Rasho Nesterovic was threatening 3-pointers, and then driving when Shaq recovered?
Malik Rose was constantly involving Shaq in pick-and-roll with scoring threats Bowen or Ginobili?

NO?

Then tell me, please, precisely what does the San Antonio have to do with what I'm saying Detroit should try?

San Antonio was an adjustment by PHIL JACKSON in his OFFENSE, and a renewed focus on helping PAYTON on defense.

Laker losses (with the four big guns) this year include:

New Orleans, where Shaq took 11 shots - Payton, George, and Fisher got 10 apiece and Bryant got 14.  Magloire went for 13, P.J. Brown for 20, and 4 for David West (2-3).

Detroit, where Shaq played 31 minutes, but had foul trouble, while Wallace has 12 and Okur had 13.

Dallas, where Shaq had 5 fouls, with Dallas going with its Nowitzki/Walker/Jamison line-up for much of the game.

Sacramento, where Shaq had 5 fouls and got only 6 shots (low man in the starting line-up).

Portland, where Shaq had 5 fouls, and got 11 shots (Bryant had 23, Payton had 12).

LA without Shaq for stretches, or with him in foul trouble, is a far less intimidating team on either end of the court.


 

[WayOutWest]

Was that the one where:

Kevin Willis was going to the goal strong, trying to draw fouls?

Three times in one game.  I don't call an alligator arm jump hook going strong to the basket trying to draw a foul.  TD when he got mad did play for the contact, Willis was just tring to get his shot off.  Huge difference.

Rasho Nesterovic was threatening 3-pointers, and then driving when Shaq recovered?

Not ONCE did Rasho "threaten" from behind the arc, he doesn't have that range.  Rasho did on a FEW occasions fake a jumper then goto the basket JUST to pull up only a couple of feet closer.  Rasho was a non-factor on offense, he did nothing of what you mentioned Detroit should do.  On defense he was a factor in game 1 and 2 ONLY.

Malik Rose was constantly involving Shaq in pick-and-roll with scoring threats Bowen or Ginobili?

Malik Rose practially played all of 2 minutes in the entire series, took maybe one jumper that he CLANKED.  He was effective on the offensive boards but again, he did nothing of what you mentioned Detroit should do.  I think you're remebering LAST year before Horry took all of Rose's minutes.

NO?

NO!

Then tell me, please, precisely what does the San Antonio have to do with what I'm saying Detroit should try?

The Lakers forced San An to become a jumpshooting team by DARRING them to shoot from the outside.  The Lakers packed it in the paint and let the BEST 3 point shooters in the league fire away UNCONTESTED just to protect the paint from drives.  What makes you think they will start running at AVERAGE 3 point Detroit shooters?  Shaq will not follow shooters out to the arc, the Lakers will dare Detroit to fire away from "fools gold" land every second of every minute of every qaurter of every game in the finals.  How many teams have TRIED to force Shaq out of his comfort zone and failed?  Unless your name is Dirk Nowitski, Shaq will be more than happy to let you fire away to your hearts content from behind the arc or beyond 15 feet.  

All the mind games you talk about are worth shyte against a Lakers team that features the offensive fire power that currently resides on the roster.  If your strategy were to work to perfection and Shaq isn't the Lakers focal point, guess what, the Lakers will STILL beat the Pistons.  Kobe cannot be gaurded by anyone on the Pistons.  There is NOBODY that can hope to keep Kobe in front the them and Kobe can drive/dish or drive/dunk all he wants.

[rickortreat]

OK, Randy- here we go.

Wow, Rick, after reading your post I'm beginning to wonder how in the world the Lakers ever managed to get into the NBA Finals. Your post makes me think I should be thankful that they are IN the finals without any hope in winning it all again.

Just because they have "weakneses" doesn't mean anyone in the league can exploit them.  So far no-one has, and I doubt Detroit will either.  I think they CAN do it once or twice- but four times, probably not.  Let me be clear about this: I think LA WILL WIN THE TITLE.

Shaq doesn't have to come out and guard the ball -- you CAN play zone -- there are no more illegal defenses for not guarding your man. He CAN'T camp in the paint but he can stand outside the paint and watch Detroits centers try and shoot the ball from the arch all day if they want to try that -- Shaq ISN'T going to guard them out there and there isn't anyone on the team WORTH guarding out there. Making Shaq go to the line IS a good strategy but only if you do it like Brown is already talking about doing it -- anytime Shaq gets within scoring distance (esp. deep in the paint) -- foul him and wrap him up so he can't get the bucket plus one. Detroit has four big men to throw at Shaq but only one of them, Big Ben, applies any kind of defensive pressure in the paint.

The point is getting him out of the paint.  Opening up the middle for Rip and Prince is what matters for Detroit.  Okur and the rest aren't going to score enough from the outside, but if they can drive to the basket from the outside, that's good for their cause too.  I do not want to see Wallace guarding Shaq too much, it will wear him down and prevent him from rebounding enough.  Ben will have to be careful to avoid fouling Shaq.  Keep him out of the middle and off the boards as much as possible, but only foul when Shaq is at point blank range.

If Rip is who you are hanging your hat on to lead the Pistons to victory, at least offensively, he is going to have to prove he can do it a LOT better than 6 and 14 points respectively. IMO, Chauncy Billups is the ONLY player on Detroits team who can be a factor in the finals for Detroit -- Rip is going to get held in check.

If Rip gets held in check Detroit can't win.  They need him to score a lot, as he has been doing in Detroit's playoff wins.  IF he plays as he did during the regular season it will be very hard for Detroit- although they did manage to win one against LA with that performance!

Oh, and those role players who can't shoot?
In the 2004 playoffs to date:
GP - 37% fg 26% 3 pt (certainly true)
Fish - 44% fg 44% 3 pt -- how much better would you like him to shoot?
George - 44% fg 39% 3 pt
Rush - 41% fg 47% 3 pt
Medvendenko - 47% fg
Malone - 46% fg
Averages to 43% from the field and 39% from the arch (GP, Fish, George and Rush)

With the exception of GP, every role player on the Lakers squad is shooting better than 40% from the field and 2 (almost 3) are shooting that percentage from the arch.

Easy there, Randy- I didn't say they couldn't shoot, just that they can't carry the team and shoot when LA needs them to.  Let me clarify this, when there open and LA has a lead they can fill it up, but when they are behind and the pressure is on, they won't shoot as well as the stats you have- as none of the teams they've played have been able to stay ahead- in the few games that these teams did manage to get a lead on LA, these players didn't shoot at that level.  The averages smooth out their game to game performances.  I do recall Payton really lighting it up early in one game- if he gets going like that or Karl does, the Pistons will be in big trouble.

I won't even bother to post the stats on Detroit- they aren't a great scoring team- Larry Brown doesn't believe in it anyway.  This series will be about Detroit's defense, and whether or not they can stop or slow LA down.  Pistons do work hard on defense, and LA doesn't like to work on offense.  Every game I saw LA loose, it was because they weren't scoring, not because the other team was doing a great job on offense.

I'll even agree that the teams LA has beaten so far are better defensively, but none of them control the tempo the way Detroit does.  They like to slow the game down when they play defense, and score easy baskets on offense- just like that Sixer team that stole one game a few years ago.  That's Brown's style and the only chance the Pistons have to win.  The key is to limit the number of posessions LA has, that wasn't  SA, Houston or Minnesota's style.

I really, really hope they can pull it off a couple of times- this finals will really suck if they can't put up a fight.  They're outgunned and out-talented.    :puke:  

[Guest_Randy]

I'll even agree that the teams LA has beaten so far are better defensively, but none of them control the tempo the way Detroit does. They like to slow the game down when they play defense, and score easy baskets on offense- just like that Sixer team that stole one game a few years ago. That's Brown's style and the only chance the Pistons have to win. The key is to limit the number of posessions LA has, that wasn't SA, Houston or Minnesota's style.

Rick, that may not be the style of Houston and Minnesota but it IS the style of SA.  They wanted to control the boards and are a better rebounding team than Detroit -- they have a great half-court offense as well and PREFER it over the run-and-gun.  

LA LOVES the halfcourt offense and while Brown is a great defensive coach, he has to be able to score on offense (and I personally believe that LA is a better defensive team than Detroit is at this point) and then has to keep the Lakers in check because the Pistons

[Guest_Randy]

I'll even agree that the teams LA has beaten so far are better defensively, but none of them control the tempo the way Detroit does. They like to slow the game down when they play defense, and score easy baskets on offense- just like that Sixer team that stole one game a few years ago. That's Brown's style and the only chance the Pistons have to win. The key is to limit the number of posessions LA has, that wasn't SA, Houston or Minnesota's style.

Rick, that may not be the style of Houston and Minnesota but it IS the style of SA.  They wanted to control the boards and are a better rebounding team than Detroit -- they have a great half-court offense as well and PREFER it over the run-and-gun.  

LA LOVES the halfcourt offense and while Brown is a great defensive coach, he has to be able to score on offense (and I personally believe that LA is a better defensive team than Detroit is at this point) and then has to keep the Lakers in check because the Pistons

Sorry, let me finish my post . . .

because the Pistons CAN'T score -- they simply don't have the offense to put up 80+ points a game -- and the defense can't hold the Lakers to less than 80 points.  It will be interesting to see how Detroits defense does against the Lakers offense -- it's probably going to be the only interesting facet of this series.