Author Topic: How are EITHER team in the EC . . .  (Read 6841 times)

Guest_Randy

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« on: June 01, 2004, 11:02:30 PM »
supposed to beat the Lakers if they can't even score 70 points?  :eek2:

Yeah, this should be a GREAT series, huh?  The best basketball in the playoffs to date has already been played folks!  The only way either team has a chance is if the Stern and the NBA decides to make Reality a ref for every game in the series -- and I still don't think they can beat the Lakers.

Offline RolandoBlackman

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2004, 01:18:35 AM »
Hey Randy!

Although in my TrueLaker heart-of-hearts I agree with you 100%, with this LAL team you never know which persona will show up on a nightly basis.  Remember how earlier this season PJ referred to this particular incarnation of ' The Lakeshow' as schizophrenic? Sadly, it seems like this moniker is not a misnomer.

Dang...even while basking in the victory, issues emerge that just can't be ignored by LAL fans.  This is the weirdest "winnin' time" that I can remember the LAL being in since I-don't-know-when.  Although anyone knows I am "The Daddy's" staunchest supporter, even I cannot ignore the lackluster effort and resulting level of play too often seen from "The Big Aristotle" throughout the playoffs.  Jerry Buss has already made his preference known...he will opt to keep Kobe (barring hard time) over Shaquille.  Pachy, it does not sound like you are the "M.D.E." in Buss' mind, you know?

After watching the Pistons-Pacers ECF Game 6 tonight, I have to think that the Finals won't be the broom-job that all of Los Angeles, from the local sportswriters across the spectrum of the populace to the casual Lakers supporters are expecting.  IMHO, it will be imperative for the Lakers to establish control of the tempo of each game from the outset, keeping it in half-court sets.  If the Pistons are able to extablish the running game at all, it will be a great advantage to them due to their overall youthfulness.  

It was kind of neat to see all of the "Bad Boys"-era players (and Chuck Daly as well) in attendance at the game - dang, Joe Dumars has put on some elbows!  Laimbeer still looks the same, though - although he is remembered for his Conrad Dobler-like game, Laimbeer's jump-shooting ability cannot be overlooked or forgotten.  This guy had skills, no matter how mean he was!  Jeez, when combined with McNasty (Rick Mahorn), you know how much Michael Jordan must have detested playing against the Pistons, knowing that the "Jordan Rules" would be in full effect.  So, don't complain about getting fouled TOO much, Pachyderm - if anything, MJ had it worse than you do.

-RB

Shaq #1

Rickortreat

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2004, 09:01:22 AM »
The Lakers are much more talented than Detroit, but talent doesn't allways win.  THe Lakers, in general, are the laziest basketball team ever, Kobe excepted.  

Detroit plays the stingiest defense in the league and has lots of big men to throw at Shaq and Karl.  Kobe will have his hands full dealing with Prince and Hamilton.  

Jeramine O'Neill even with the injuries, is much quicker than Shaq.  He could get around  Ben Wallace, I'm not so sure about Shaq.  And poor Karl who spent the last series chasing KG around, gets to chase Rashid Wallace now.

Lakers in 6.  

Offline Lurker

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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2004, 09:05:38 AM »
Actually I think Indiana would have been a tougher matchup.  I predicted Detroit would beat Indy but they can't stop LA.  The Piston's defense is overrated.  They basically tied with SA for the best defense but SA played offensive juggernauts like Dallas, Sac, Minn and even LA twice as many times.  The Eastern conference just doesn't have the same level of offensive firepower as the west.

There are only two reasons LA won't sweep Detroit....they forget to show up for one game or the league does everything in its power to stretch the series.  Detroit cannot handle Shaq/Malone up front.  And Prince (Detroit's best perimeter defender) will be eaten alive by Kobe.  Billups isn't as quick as Francis or Parker and isn't as consistent in outside shooting as Cassell or Minny's other guards.

BTW did anyone else who watched the eastern playoffs think that Artest was overrated this year as a defender?  He did nothing to shut down any scorer in either the Miami or Detroit series.  He did limit the shots taken by his opponent but then mostly guarded the #3 option (Butler & Prince) with only limited exposure to the opponent's top scorers (Wade & Hamilton).   DPOY award this year was a joke.....Big Ben deserved it again before Artest.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2004, 09:06:14 AM by Lurker »
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2004, 09:15:35 AM »
Quote
Actually I think Indiana would have been a tougher matchup.  I predicted Detroit would beat Indy but they can't stop LA.  The Piston's defense is overrated.  They basically tied with SA for the best defense but SA played offensive juggernauts like Dallas, Sac, Minn and even LA twice as many times.  The Eastern conference just doesn't have the same level of offensive firepower as the west.

There are only two reasons LA won't sweep Detroit....they forget to show up for one game or the league does everything in its power to stretch the series.  Detroit cannot handle Shaq/Malone up front.  And Prince (Detroit's best perimeter defender) will be eaten alive by Kobe.  Billups isn't as quick as Francis or Parker and isn't as consistent in outside shooting as Cassell or Minny's other guards.

BTW did anyone else who watched the eastern playoffs think that Artest was overrated this year as a defender?  He did nothing to shut down any scorer in either the Miami or Detroit series.  He did limit the shots taken by his opponent but then mostly guarded the #3 option (Butler & Prince) with only limited exposure to the opponent's top scorers (Wade & Hamilton).   DPOY award this year was a joke.....Big Ben deserved it again before Artest.
I was thinking the same think about Artest after the last 2 rounds of the EC playoffs.  The guy does an excellent job all year long of playing tough defense and then lost his game somewhere at the Queensbridge projects in NY.  Really I think everyone expected him to take over at least 1 or 2 games on the defensive end by getting Indy some stops and easy points of TO's....that just wasnt the case and REALLY hurt the Pacers who count on his D.

For someone who was rooting for him all year to get defensive player of the year I am very disapointed.

As for Wallace and Wallace...Sheed is going to get his.  Ben on the other hand is great at hustle plays, rebounding, and defending....but lets see how his energy level looks after having to guard Shaq in the post.  No using his bulk to overpower the other player to get a rebound.  That is just not going to happen with Shaq.  With all that said like everyone else said in the thread, we will see which Laker team shows up.  The champs or that other team who doesnt play defense.
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Offline WayOutWest

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2004, 09:43:17 AM »
It's fun to watch B-Ben rebound, he throws his body around and hustles like a mad man.  But when he has to play against Shaq, Big-Ben looks just like everybody else, ordinary and way over matched.  The only guy who looks like he can hold his own is Tim Duncan, Wallace is just a little rag doll going up against the Diesel.

I too am a bit concerned about wich Laker team will show up, especially since they have home court vs. the Pistons.  I think the Lakers will lose one of the first two games, if they don't then it will most likely only go 5.
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Guest_Randy

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2004, 10:11:24 AM »
I'd be a bit more concerned about the Lakers if it weren't for Karl Malone -- who I think is the heart of this Laker team.  He is competitive (although not as much as Kobe) but he is so team oriented that it spills over to the entire team (that doesn't happen with Kobe -- sometimes Kobe inspires his teammates but he never infuses them with confidence).  

As for Artest, I thought I heard that he was still not completely healthy (foot or knee, I forget which I heard).  If he ISN'T injured, he definately has benefited from hype because he hasn't done anything to stop Miami or Detroit.  

I think the Lakers lose one -- if they Lakers can't lose two to the TWolves -- they don't lose two to Detroit.  There isn't ANYONE on the Pistons who can score consistently outside of Rip Hamilton and that just puts WAY too much pressure on Rip -- esp. when LA will do a good job of defending.  One of the Lakers current weakness is defensively at SF -- and Prince isn't going to exploit that one.  Detroits frontline may be big but they can't contend with Shaq and Shaq is going to have some HUGE games.  

Lakers in 5 and Karl Malone is this years MVP for the Lakers -- he won't get the MVP for the series and/or finals because Shaq and Kobe will have better stats but Malone definately has been the heart of the Lakers this year.

Offline Joe Vancil

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2004, 10:55:38 AM »
I don't think anyone believes that Detroit is the more talented team.  To me, that means that it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that if Detroit tries to beat LA on talent, that they're going to lose, and to me, that means you don't play the series to win on talent if you're Detroit.

Detroit *CAN* beat LA, but the margin for error is infinitesimal.  And the key to beating LA is beating Shaq.  As Shaq goes, so go the Lakers, because they have to drag Shaq's ego along with them as they travel.  A Shaq that's unhappy at his teammates is the thing Detroit most wants to see.

And the best way to make Shaq unhappy with his teammates is to make Shaq's teammates unhappy with Shaq's effort.  That means you work O'Neal until he's too tired to be of any use.  Detroit has the big guys to do this.  They can use combinations of Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Mehment Okur, Elden Campbell, Corliss Williamson, and Darko Milicic across the front line.  Malone only gets to cover one of those guys.  The key is to use the OTHER against Shaq, and attack Shaq directly with the weapons the guys bring to the table.  For Ben Wallace, that's mobility, defense, and energy - you run pick-and-roll with Hamilton and Wallace.  (Hamilton - not Billups.  After all - if you want Kobe upset with Shaq, you rub Kobe's face in Shaq's mistakes.)

With Mehmet Okur, the trick is to make O'Neal run to cover the outside shot.  Okur needs to be patient, but aggressive.  Okur will end up taking a beating for this, but that's the sacrifice he has to make if he wants the opportunity at a title.  Make Shaq run out to cover Okur's shot...and let Okur choose between taking the shot before Shaq can get there, and DRIVING INTO SHAQ AS HE'S COMING OUT.  Those calls will go Okur's way, as the NBA calls APPEARANCE, not execution.  Okur will get into some ugly collisions...and take some hard hits.

For Rasheed Wallace, you're looking at doing the same thing as Mehmet Okur, except starting on the block.  Rasheed should be looking for contact on every post shot he takes.

For Campbell, this is where you let Campbell goon up on Shaq, after he's had his fill of the others.  Push Shaq.  Make him upset.  Plant an elbow in his chest for an offensive foul.  An angry and brain-dead Shaq is worth one possession, so  INCENSE SHAQ.  Make Shaq want to get even...and watch him fume as his teammates don't get him the ball and give him the opportunity.

This strategy is going to fail in game one - guaranteed.  There is NO WAY for the Pistons to win game 1.  But if you stick with this strategy throughout game 1, it should plant the discontent necessary to swing the series.

The problem is that LA has Malone and Fox - enforcers.  Play dirty with Shaq, and these guys will make other people pay for it.  And that means you need buy-in by the entire Detroit team, and that Larry Brown needs to work the refs constantly.

Personally, I can't see Detroit posing any kind of threat to Los Angeles if they DON'T do something like this.  If they want the title "Bad Boys," then this series, they're going to have to earn it.

I say Lakers in 6.

 
Joe

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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2004, 11:09:00 AM »
Quote
The problem is that LA has Malone and Fox - enforcers.  Play dirty with Shaq, and these guys will make other people pay for it.  And that means you need buy-in by the entire Detroit team, and that Larry Brown needs to work the refs constantly.
 
Malone has a thing for Piston guards.  Play the Lakers dirty and you will lose players for the entire series.  Bad strategy unless you get a Laker suspended, namely Shaq.  Make Shaq mad and Shaq will commit an offensive foul but you will most likely lose the player who draws the foul.

Detroit is dead.
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Offline Lurker

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2004, 11:25:45 AM »
And Joe please explain how Okur will guard Shaq on the other end of the court?  Just exactly how will Okur stay on the court long enough to get off more than 5 or 6 shots?  Besides Malone will guard any perimeter c/pf on the court for Detroit.  And if Detroit plays two perimeter oriented big men then this plays into LA's hands.

Ben Wallace is not a strong one on one post defender against bigger players.  Shaq & Duncan regularly put up large numbers against him.  He is a very good help defender.  Also Wallace can't put pressure on Shaq when Detroit has the ball.

Campbell can't earn playing time all year long and he is going to muscle Shaq?  Williamson will have as much effect on Shaq as Madsen.  Milicic will earn fouls at a rate of 1 per minute if not quicker.

Rasheed cannot guard Shaq in the post.  Guarding Malone in the post is work for him.  The best thing about running Sheed at center is to play small ball.  IMO Detroit's best chance is to go small and run at the Lakers.  This is where Minnesota had the most success.   However it is not in Brown's arsenal to run constantly.....he prefers a more controlled tempo.  And again this will play into the Laker's hands.

Getting physical with the Lakers won't work.  Running their legs off will.  And if the officials allow a physical game then Hamilton & Prince are dead.  Kobe, George & Fox will definately get the upper hand in a physical game.  Payton & Fisher will give Billups all he can handle also.  
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Guest_Randy

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2004, 12:09:21 PM »
Joe,

You gotta help me understand -- you think that Detroit can do (with their post players) what SA couldn't do?  You think that Okur, Wallace, Campbell, etc. are better than TD, Rasho, Willis, Rose and Horry?  The SA frontline are better defenders than Detroits frontline and they are SOOO much better offensively it's not even a fair comparison.  Sorry, but you are wayyy off base on this one, Joe.  Detroit doesn't stand a chance -- they were the second best defense in the league (behind SA), IMO, during the regular season but their offense is one of the worst in the league.  

The Lakers will make Detroit pay for sagging back on Shaq from outside and I don't think anyone on the Pistons can guard Kobe.  

Detroit goes down in 5 and the series isn't NEARLY as good as the WC semi-finals and not as good as the WC Finals.

rickortreat

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2004, 12:26:24 PM »
Randy,

You're forgetting about Detroit's depth.  What they don't have in quality, they make up in quantity.  They have lots of fouls to make on Shaq, and Shaq on the line is a great deal for Detroit.  Shaq will have to work very hard to get his shots, and he doesn't like to do that.

Malone will be just as tired guarding Rasheed as he was guarding Garnett.  They should be going to him in the post, but won't, as Shaq and Kobe will be taking most of the shots.  If Jackson is smart, he will go to Malone early and often and that should open up LA's offense.

Prince is very long- long enough to make Kobe work very hard.  Hamilton should have a field day against the other guard- Jackson knows he needs Kobe's offense too much to have him chase Hamilton around.

Brown will only run if he can't grind down LA in the halfcourt.  LA has been too lazy to execute well in the half-court and Detroit's effort will make them even lazier. Detroit execute well as long as they don't have to score a lot of points.  Hamilton will be a big problem for LA.

LA needs to get out and run, and I don't think they have the players to do it over a 7 game series.  

Larry Brown is a better coach than Phil Jackson, and will figure out a way to win.  It won't be enough, and LA will win the series in 6.  But LA fans will be screaming at the officials the entire series.  The best TV will be watching Jackson getting more and more frustrated at trying to work the officials, and the in-between game sniping between him and Brown.  

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2004, 02:24:28 PM »
Quote
You're forgetting about Detroit's depth.  What they don't have in quality, they make up in quantity.  They have lots of fouls to make on Shaq, and Shaq on the line is a great deal for Detroit.  Shaq will have to work very hard to get his shots, and he doesn't like to do that.
 
Rick,

You're not paying attention.

SA is BETTER and DEEPER than Detroit.  Better quality AND better quantity.

Duncan, Rasho, Willis, Horry and Rose are BETTER and DEEPER than B.Wallace, R.Wallace, Okur, Cambell and Williamson.  NO CONTEST.  The East fans are kidding themselves AGAIN!
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Offline Derek Bodner

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How are EITHER team in the EC . . .
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2004, 02:31:09 PM »
eh, easy there randy.  SA obviously has the best single player (Duncan > Wallace), but...
Wallace (whichever other one) > Rasho
and Okur > either Willis, Horry or Rose

It's certainly not "No Contest", like you so eloquently put it.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2004, 02:35:55 PM »
Quote
The East fans are kidding themselves AGAIN!
 :nod:  
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"