Who will sign Michael Vick?

[rickortreat]

"Anything can be dangerous.  Cats can be dangerous.  Dogs can be dangerous.  A gun can be dangerous.  As can your car, motorcycle, heck even a house can be dangerous if not given the requisite attention.  Dogs are not dangerous if given the proper upbringing."

Proper upbringing is not something you can count on, not because the dogs won't be responsive, but because the trainers can't always ensure the dog is trained right.

Some dogs are high-strung and do not make good pets. A dalmation is a good example of a nice dog that does not make a good family pet. Pit Bulls do make good pets, until they turn, and the do turn often enough that it should be a concern.  You can say that the Pit Bulls weren't properly trained etc. but it happens too often that someone gets hurt by them. Is that lack of training or something intrisic to the dog?  If it's not intrinsic, why does it happen with that specific breed so much more often?

Why do we need Pit Bulls, what specific purpose do they serve that makes them essential?   There are plenty of other breeds that make excellent family pets without the potential for danger that a Pit Bull presents.  People are in general not well-equipped to handle dogs like Pit Bulls, and having them in the general population is a hazard.

The fact that they have been used in crimes and assaults and been viewed by the courts as deadly force should give you pause. Owners have to be held responsible for their pets, and that goes even more for Pit Bulls because they can do more.  I think they should be regulated more tightly than other dogs because they can be used as a deadly weapon.   That's not something I would think would be needed with a Dalmation.

My friend used to own a gas station and at night they put in an ex police dog. They wouldn't even let the dog see me, knowing that he would attack me right away. A german shephard, meanest dog alive. People breaking into the garage left a trail of blood when they left. You don't try to make a dog like that into a pet, because it learned that it liked being mean. Once a dog gets that sense of it's power, it's hard to control them. The owner had to be well protected before he went to get the dog to bring to the station.  It was treated as a deadly weapon because that's what it was.

A Pit Bull can be trained any way you want, but their nature is such that they will not always hold to their training and revert to their instinct. And I would say the danger with them is greater than other breeds because statistically most of the time, it's Pit Bulls involved not other breeds.

[WayOutWest]

A Pit Bull can be trained any way you want, but their nature is such that they will not always hold to their training and revert to their instinct. And I would say the danger with them is greater than other breeds because statistically most of the time, it's Pit Bulls involved not other breeds.

Absolutely wrong rick!  Where do you get this information?  All animals can revert bck to their instincts, including humans, don't know why you think this is a dog issue, let alone a Pit Bull specific issue.

In fact if you think danger is by breed you should be more concerned by Rottweilers, they were bred for taking into WAR by the Roman empire for cattle hearding and PROTECTION.  I think the Rotty can apply the most pressure when it bites, about 600 psi.  Rotts were actually used to guard money, the money would be tied around it's neck for safe keeping.  Where is your uproar over Rottys?

That fact that they are used incorrectly does not make them anymore dangerous than other large breed of dog.  It's like using areosol cans to get high.  I do agree that there should be strickter rules for dog ownership but that should apply to all large breeds, Dobies, Sheppards, and all Mastiff breeds.  As I pointed out earlier, a Dalmation is far more dangerous around families than Pit Bulls.

[JoMal]

A dog does not survive by establishing dominance.  Dogs survive by working together.

The "pack" mentality in dogs is exactly what makes them great pets.  They live with you, not simply sharing the same living space.  They're not just companions, they literally become part of the family.  If you want to experience undying devotion, get a dog.

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090819/NEWS11/908199995

[westkoast]

Pitbulls do not 'often' turn on their family.  That is a down right lie.  I know plenty of people who own pitbulls, none of which have had the dog turn on them.  If it happened often then I think I would have known at least one person who it happened to.

[Derek Bodner]

A dog does not survive by establishing dominance.  Dogs survive by working together.

The "pack" mentality in dogs is exactly what makes them great pets.  They live with you, not simply sharing the same living space.  They're not just companions, they literally become part of the family.  If you want to experience undying devotion, get a dog.

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090819/NEWS11/908199995

Those were wild dogs....

The discussion was whether dogs trying to establish dominance in a pack leads to violent behavior in domesticated dogs towards people.  Not that feral dogs in a pack of 16 can be dangerous when trying to fight for survival....

I think this was the most relevant part of the article you posted:

There have been at least 20 deadly dog attacks in the U.S. this year, 22 in 2008 and 33 in 2007, said the Humane Society?s Goldfarb, compared with about 75 million owned dogs. The National Weather Service says there were 27 lightning deaths so far this year, 28 in 2008 and 45 in 2007.

[JoMal]

Those were wild dogs....

The discussion was whether dogs trying to establish dominance in a pack leads to violent behavior in domesticated dogs towards people.  Not that feral dogs in a pack of 16 can be dangerous when trying to fight for survival....

Those dogs were not always feral. Someone had owned at least some of them at one point.

But the gist of this argument is how dogs can be affected by their surroundings and training, whether it is to behave properly around humans or to attack them, depending on the circumstances. And the circumstances are always that the pack comes first, whether the "pack" consists of humans who own the dog or feral dogs protecting their territory. The traits seen in this attack would amount to the same as it did with Ted's dog.

[Derek Bodner]

The traits seen in this attack would amount to the same as it did with Ted's dog.

I'm not sure I'm ready to jump to that conclusion, especially considering the lack of information coming from both stories (Ted and the elderly couple).

But I do agree with you that circumstances change.  when a dog has to go on its own to survive (or in a wild group), it's a wild animal in my mind.  Same thing with feral cats.  They might not be big enough to inflict the kind of damage these feral dogs did, but I don't go up and pet every cat I meet in the woods.  regardless of whether it was a housecat at one point or not.  And I love cats.

[Ted]

Dogs are not dangerous if given the proper upbringing.

FALSE. Outside of the instance I saw myself, there are countless examples of well-trained family-pet dogs, many of them pit bulls, attacking other dogs or people. Just plain FALSE.

[Derek Bodner]

And you're making many assumptions (both on "well-trained" and why).

And taking an entire post and commenting on one sentence.

And taking a single instance (or limited amount) and projecting (both dogs and breeds) as dangerous based on that.

But I'm done with arguing people who obviously aren't going to believe otherwise.

[Ted]

Pitbulls do not 'often' turn on their family.  That is a down right lie.  I know plenty of people who own pitbulls, none of which have had the dog turn on them.  If it happened often then I think I would have known at least one person who it happened to.

I don't think anyone said it that way. There's no denying fatal dog attacks from any kind of dog are pretty rare. I'm saying, I believe it happens more often, and with more devastating consequences with dogs like the pit bull.

And WoW makes a good point that it's not fair to single out pit bulls alone. Dalmations are indeed terrible family dogs and are pretty much nut jobs. Much of the breed's problems come from the fact that it attracts irresponsible owners more than probably any other breed. IMO, that's too bad. If you can't or won't control the way the owner trains the dog, then what can you do about the problem. Because you still have that big fat problem fact to get past:

The Humane Society of the United States says that since 1983, pit bulls killed 21 of the 29 people slaughtered by dogs: 72 percent killed by 1 percent of the nation's dogs.

That's still the least biased article I've seen on the subject. Everything else comes from either lovers or haters.

[JoMal]

The traits seen in this attack would amount to the same as it did with Ted's dog.

I'm not sure I'm ready to jump to that conclusion, especially considering the lack of information coming from both stories (Ted and the elderly couple).

I have two cats, no dogs. Always have had cats

Oddly enough, if you get a cat young enough, they also can be 'trained' though the results are surprising regarding how they interpret what you think you are training them to do and how they do it. It often ends up that they are training you to behave is a certain way. I think this is a unique way in which cats communicate with their owners. 

As for those pack dogs, what my point is, feral dogs also learn traits for survival, as do domesticated dogs and it is the same instinct - to survive and to protect the pack. Pit Bulls are notorious as the prime 'pack' dog who will literally kill to protect its pack. The types of dogs in that pack were surprising. They were small and typically not know for inflicting even a bite on their owners let alone killing anyone or anything. But the basic instinct of the dogs came out in the pack. They reverted back to when this is how they survived.

[Ted]

And you're making many assumptions (both on "well-trained" and why).

You're right. I have only what I heard, saw, and was told by the owner and police.

And taking an entire post and commenting on one sentence.

Because it was the only sentence that I really really disagreed with. And because it was false.

And taking a single instance (or limited amount) and projecting (both dogs and breeds) as dangerous based on that.

That's fair. Limited as in consisting of significant proportion of limited number of fatal attacks.

But I'm done with arguing people who obviously aren't going to believe otherwise.

Two thoughts:

1. I was starting to feel the same way, but I wasn't quite ready to quit.
2. Quitter!  

P.S. For clarity's sake, I'm not calling for a ban on the breed. But I do think we should have laws that they (and other commonly dangerous breeds) are registered and regulated.

[Ted]

I'm not sure I'm ready to jump to that conclusion, especially considering the lack of information coming from both stories (Ted and the elderly couple).

Sorry. Forgot to post the details.

In chronological order:

1. Wife and I are in bed about midnight in autumn of 2007. August I think. Nothing interesting happening at the moment . . . dammit.
2. We hear sounds of a dog getting its arse kicked outside our window in the backyard, behind our fence. Wife says, "Those are dogs fighting, and one of them's Teva!" She jumps out and runs outside. In hindsight, she was quite daft to run out alone without a weapon or something.
3. I throw on a pair of shorts, grab the Easton and run out after her.
4. I find her facing the neighbor?s (from across the street) growling dogs, standing over her dog; her yelling at them to get away.
5. I advance much less courageously with the bat in hand, the dogs stand there for a second, then when I yell too, they "trot" away.
6. Being a licensed veterinary techinician, my wife tries to help her dog, but there's a lot of blood and she's not breathing well--probably a crushed wind pipe. She has severe bites on here head, ears, neck, and belly. She dies before we can get her to the vet the next morning. My wife cries a lot.
7. I call police, officer comes asks if we know where the dogs are. I say ask the guy across the street. Officer asks me to stay on my property and goes over there.
8. Neighbor denies it was his dogs. Officer asks to see the dogs. Neighbor can?t find them in his yard; realizes a gate is open. He starts calling for them. Dogs return a few minutes later.
9. We identify the dogs.
10. Policeman instructs neighbor to secure his dogs well and asks us both to be available next day to talk to animal control officer.
11. Next day, animal control issues citation for keeping vicious animals, despite neighbor?s pleas that they are so sweet with his children. They wouldn?t hurt a fly. They?ve never done it before. My children will be heartbroken. AC takes the animals to be destroyed. His deciding factor for euthanization was their aggressive stance towards us as we initially approached.
12. Neighbor blames me for what happens. I recommend that he show gratitude that we don?t sue his ass. I also, thinking solely of his and his family?s long-term financial future, suggest penile enlargement therapy rather than keeping vicious dogs. He does not agree with my recommendation.
13. Our previously amiable relationship suffers irreparable harm.
14. He moves his family away in early 2008, after acquiring two new pit bull pups.
15. I conclude he is a dumbass; and admittedly, I receive a poor first-hand impression of pit bulls and their owners.

[westkoast]

I don't think anyone said it that way. There's no denying fatal dog attacks from any kind of dog are pretty rare. I'm saying, I believe it happens more often, and with more devastating consequences with dogs like the pit bull.

Rick specifically said that Pitbulls turn too often.

oblem. Because you still have that big fat problem fact to get past:

The Humane Society of the United States says that since 1983, pit bulls killed 21 of the 29 people slaughtered by dogs: 72 percent killed by 1 percent of the nation's dogs.

That's still the least biased article I've seen on the subject. Everything else comes from either lovers or haters.

They are also the number 1 dog used to fight and the most popular dog used to protect homes next to dobers.

[WayOutWest]

Sorry. Forgot to post the details.

In chronological order:

1. Wife and I are in bed about midnight in autumn of 2007. August I think. Nothing interesting happening at the moment . . . dammit.

Sorry Ted, I'm calling BS on the entire story.  There is no way you were in bed with ONE wife!

I'm sorry to hear about what happened.  I have had several bad experiences with dogs as well, dogs do scare me at times, if it's too big for me to kick at least 10 feet then I am worried. 

The worst experience was in 94 or 95, two dogs dug under my fence and attacked my dog.  One of them was a pit and the other dog was a lab mix.  When I got outside the Pit had my Rotty by the neck and the lab was biting my dogs ears.  I walked outside and started yelling at them to scare them away, the lab broke off his attack and started barking at me.  I went back inside, grabbed a baseball bat (aluminum is the way to go) and walked back outside.  By then my dog was not moving much and I thought he was dead so I was really angry.  The lab started barking at me again so I cracked him on the head then I took two swings at the Pits ribs and he let go and sort of crawled away a couple of feet.  I was still scared of the Pit so I cracked him on the head a couple of times to make sure he wouldn't get up again.

I took my dog to the vet and he gave me the option of $2500 to TRY and save him or $100 bucks to put him to "sleep".  I did not have the money to pay that kind of bill, even if I did I probably would not spend that much on an animal, so I opted to have him put to sleep.  I left a note on my neighboor house that I had to use his trash cans to get his dogs out of my yard.  He was truely upset about what happened, not that I killed his dogs, and we were both gratefull it wasn't a kid they attacked.  He even replaced my Mutweiler, he was a Rotty with no papers, with a Rotty that had AKC papers.  He's still my parents neighbor and we get along fine, he actually has a Boxer that he got from my sister.