Author Topic: Mr. Smith visits Philly...  (Read 31021 times)

Offline Skates

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 12:17:37 AM »
Skates:

To be fair...

1) If GS is considering moving Ellis to PG, it is because of the loss of Davis and no other option is jumping out at them right now that would be better...this does not mean that Ellis' best position (offensively at least) is as SG;
2) Hinrich is being considered at SG because they have a new PG, their SG may not get resigned (or may get signed away) and they are paying him $10 mil to do SOMETHING;
3) We agree on Thad;
4) 'Sheed is listed as a PF...and my exercise is looking at where these guys would play on offense...I have no question in certain situations, 'Sheed would guard the 5 and Sammy the 4, but on this team, 'Sheed's skill set would clearly be at the PF on offense...right?

You are absolutely right about Ellis, he is no PG from the skill set I have seen.  At SG he is very undersized (his listed height is very generous and he makes Iverson look like Superman weight wise), but is hidden playing on an unusual team like GS.  grat scorer and mid-range shooter sure, but not a three point shooter of note yet.

Hinrich is being considered at SG because the Bulls suffered greatly at the point last year.  Truthfully, Hinrich fits better on the Sixers at point with an excellent full-court ball handler and passer like Iggy next to him (Iggy does lack explosive ball handling in the half court, but his open court skills are excellent, can't say I understand he has those disparate traits) and a small, quicker player backing him up  like Lou Williams.  He could play with Lou and slide over to SG at times.  Lou can also play SG in a smaller line-up.  Iggy can play SG or SF, Thad can play SF or PF and so could Josh Smith.  Jason Smith and Speight can both play the 4 and 5, although in very different ways. 

I fully understand the problem with getting guys to fit into roles that don't suit them, I was here for both the Barkley and Iverson years, great players, ill-suited for the positions befitting their height.  That is not what this team is being built as, quite the opposite they are being built with long, athletic multi-positional players that can go big or small or in between.  You dream team had guys like that in both Hinrich and Sheed.  I also don't worry about Josh Smith not being a post-up PF because we just drafted one in Speights and because moving Thad to the 3 and Iggy to the 2 lets them play in the post at their positions as well.  I expect down the road Thad will become our first option as a scorer and Speights will become our inside monster on offense.  Add a shooter in Hinrich to replace Miller, grab a shooting wing to replace Carney and Green off the bench and we have something with Iggy, the Smiths and Lou playing their roles.  Truthfully we are two to three years away from contending which is the main reason Smith is our primary target given his age.

Offline Pure Hatred

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 05:20:44 AM »
Hi, new poster here, posted occasionally on the realgm boards under the same name, but I doubt anyone remembered me.

My thoughts on Smith:

He definitely wouldn't be Number one on my priority list, but he's a decent fit with our current team and would certainly improve it, though not, I fear to the next level. Lukewarm just about sums it up, though I don't think he'll be as bad as some are making it out to be.

The Good:
Smith makes us an even better open court team. Possibly the best in the league, not only at finishing, but also at creating opportunities through steals. Finishing I won't bother going into, it's obvious. Smith, as a second weakside shot blocker would probably allow the rest of the perimeter players to gamble more on steals, leading to fast break opportunities, without negatively impacting their defense too much. I don't have stats or anything to back it up, but I would guess that having a second shot blocker would help out Dalembert a great deal; he wouldn't have to rotate nearly as much from penetrations given up from players unsucessfully playing the passing lanes, and he'd SHOULD be able to contribute more on the defensive glass in boxing out his man if he doesn't have to help. From what I saw near the end of the season, our perimeter defenders were becoming pretty damn good at recovering and contesting jumpshots (case in point, end of Game 1 vs. Detroit, this sticks out most firmly in my mind), and adding Smith would only help our help defense as a whole and our running game. (Didn't even bother trying to justify Smith's blocking as possibly helping our fastbreaks, most of his blocks are simply sent flying into the stands.)

Here are some random players I checked the stats of on 82games: Bryant, Pierce, James, Ginobili, Parker, Iguodala, Johnson, Allen, McGrady, Melo, Nowitzki, Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, Brand. They all have a more than a few things in common, they're stars, and they've all represented their team in all-star games. Here's another: Josh Smith drew fouls at a higher frequency than ALL of them. I've watched Smith play for only 2 games this year, admittedly, but those stats tell you something. Smith wouldn't exactly be a useless vegetable some make him out to be in the halfcourt. He excels at getting to the line, something we were horribly lacking in last year. In fact, if you wanted to obtain someone better than him in this regard, you have two targets--Wade and Howard. Smith would give us that ref-appeal factor we desperately need to, and he would charge up our fan base.

EDIT: Forgot about Iverson (!), who checks in at a rate of 0.1% above Smith.

This has nothing to do with Smith directly, but I think we'll do a good job next year beating a clog the lane or zone defense, even with his addition. It's a myth I've seen perpetuated on message boards that having 3 point shooters is a prerequisite to break down a zone, having consistent shooters out to about 20 feet would be enough to break it. Rip, for example, would be a godsend to this team. We don't have Rip, but we do have players I think that could develop into being decent out to about 20-22 feet. Thaddeus Young and Speights both have excellent forms on their Js and can only improve, while Smith, Miller and Iguodala have already shown this year that they can be a threat from 17-20. Smith and Iguodala can probably improve, along with the likes of Carney and Lou. I count about 6 potential players who could become excellent mid-long range shooters, and if only 2-3 pan out, I think that will be more than enough to somewhat deter teams from using that defense every time down the court.

Smith isn't also a particularly bad playmaker in a halfcourt set, from what I've heard from savvier Hawks fans, he is actually a pretty decent passer, think Kirilenko. I'm told he has the ability to make pretty spectacular passes.

Smith has attitude. We need it. See Evans and what he brought to the playoffs last year. I'm banking on Smith bringing similar intangibles.

It's now or never. There are a TON of expirings next year, and half the teams in the league will be able to sign FAs, not only us Memphis. Plus, the PF FA crop won't be as good (Boozer wants 6/126M???).

Damn, I think I've just convinced myself we need to sign him.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 08:02:03 AM by Pure Hatred »

Offline bebopdeluxe

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 06:54:00 AM »
tk:

I'm not trying to throw Iggy under the bus for wanting a top-60 NBA contract.  I just don't know if he deserves that contract as a 35+ mpg SG...on a given team - with a traditional Redd/Rip SG as a consistent outside threat, he would be a SUPERB SF.  Unfortunately, we have our SF of the future in Thad - right?

Offline Howardmgm3

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2008, 07:52:17 AM »
Hi, new poster here, posted occasionally on the realgm boards under the same name, but I doubt anyone remembered me.

My thoughts on Smith:

He definitely wouldn't be Number one on my priority list, but he's a decent fit with our current team and would certainly improve it, though not, I fear to the next level. Lukewarm just about sums it up, though I don't think he'll be as bad as some are making it out to be.

The Good:
Smith makes us an even better open court team. Possibly the best in the league, not only at finishing, but also at creating opportunities through steals. Finishing I won't bother going into, it's obvious. Smith, as a second weakside shot blocker would probably allow the rest of the perimeter players to gamble more on steals, leading to fast break opportunities, without negatively impacting their defense too much. From what I saw nearthe end of the season, our perimeter defenders were becoming pretty damn good at recovering and contesting jumpshots (case in point, end of Game 1 vs. Detroit, this sticks out most firmly in my mind), and adding Smith would only help our help defense as a whole and our running game. (Didn't even bother trying to justify Smith's blocking as possibly helping our fastbreaks, most of his blocks are simply sent flying into the stands.)

Here are some random players I checked the stats of on 82games: Bryant, Pierce, James, Ginobili, Parker, Iguodala, Johnson, Allen, McGrady, Melo, Nowitzki, Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, Brand. They all have a more than a few things in common, they're stars, and they've all represented their team in all-star games. Here's another: Josh Smith drew fouls at a higher frequency than ALL of them. I've watched Smith play for only 2 games this year, admittedly, but those stats tell you something. Smith wouldn't exactly be a useless vegetable some make him out to be in the halfcourt. He excels at getting to the line, something we were horribly lacking in last year. In fact, if you wanted to obtain someone better than him in this regard, you have two targets--Wade and Howard. Smith would give us that ref-appeal factor we desperately need to, and he would charge up our fan base.

This has nothing to do with Smith directly, but I think we'll do a good job next year beating a clog the lane or zone defense, even with his addition. It's a myth I've seen perpetuated on message boards that having 3 point shooters is a prerequisite to break down a zone, having consistent shooters out to about 20 feet would be enough to break it. Rip, for example, would be a godsend to this team. We don't have Rip, but we do have players I think that could develop into being decent out to about 20-22 feet. Thaddeus Young and Speights both have excellent forms on their Js and can only improve, while Smith, Miller and Iguodala have already shown this year that they can be a threat from 17-20. Smith and Iguodala can probably improve, along with the likes of Carney and Lou. I count about 6 potential players who could become excellent mid-long range shooters, and if only 2-3 pan out, I think that will be more than enough to somewhat deter teams from using that defense every time down the court.

Smith isn't also a particularly bad playmaker in a halfcourt set, from what I've heard from savvier Hawks fans, he is actually a pretty decent passer, think Kirilenko. I'm told he has the ability to make pretty spectacular passes.

Smith has attitude. We need it.

It's now or never. There are a TON of expirings next year, and half the teams in the league will be able to sign FAs, not only us Memphis. Plus, the PF FA crop won't be as good (Boozer wants 6/126M???).

Damn, I think I've just convinced myself we need to sign him.



Great analysis!!!
Thanks...Howard

Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2008, 09:48:37 AM »
So I'm just thinking.  If the Sixers offer a really big deal to Smith to try to get the Hawks not to match, do they hafta offer the same deal to Iggy to stop him from becoming a petulant child?

Offline anklebreaker

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2008, 09:55:18 AM »
^^ They'll probably be forced to take a wait and see approach. 

Offline TheGuiltyParty

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2008, 10:27:17 AM »
So I'm just thinking.  If the Sixers offer a really big deal to Smith to try to get the Hawks not to match, do they hafta offer the same deal to Iggy to stop him from becoming a petulant child?

I've thought a lot about this. How will Iguodala react to Smith getting $66MIL if Ed is only (ha!) offering him $57MIL? I'm really liking the idea of moving Iguodala more and more although I don't think Ed will do it.

jemagee

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2008, 10:28:18 AM »
If Josh Smith is worth 66 million, then so is Andre Iguodala, who has accomplished more is more well rounded and has no 'baggage' with him.

And I'm sure the sixers are smart enough to realize that as well


Offline bebopdeluxe

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2008, 10:49:20 AM »
I don't think I'm comfortable - yet - giving Andre Iguodala $66 million to be our 35+ mpg SG of the future.

And listening to Stefanski's comments (where he has suggested giving serious burn to LouW at SG), I wonder if he is ready to give Iguodala $66 million as well.

jemagee

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2008, 10:51:12 AM »
Oh yes please Mr Stefanski, let Iguodala who excels at so many things walk and replace him with the short more one dimensional Louis Williams.

That makes a lot of basketball sense.

If Iguodala is given 66 million over 6  years, that's not too much for what he is, and if people would accept what he is instead of trying to make him what he is not and what he never will be or was never GOING to be,  it would be a lot easier

Offline TheGuiltyParty

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2008, 11:07:06 AM »
Oh yes please Mr Stefanski, let Iguodala who excels at so many things walk and replace him with the short more one dimensional Louis Williams.

That makes a lot of basketball sense.

If Iguodala is given 66 million over 6  years, that's not too much for what he is, and if people would accept what he is instead of trying to make him what he is not and what he never will be or was never GOING to be,  it would be a lot easier

If Iguodala walks... the team would still have a significant amount of cap space to go acquire an actual "shooting" guard. I like Iguodala but we have Thad and so I'm just not for the idea of moving 'Dala to the 2. As Barkley said, if we get Smith... teams should just play zone against us since we won't be able to score 60 points if we have to shoot from the outside.

jemagee

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2008, 11:09:06 AM »
Well, I've never really listened to Charles Barkley since i think he's full of more hot air than the hindenburg was, and i expect him to mimic a hindenburg later on in life.

If the sixers plan is to sign and trade Iguodala and then sign Mikael Pietrus, I'm not an unhappy person, cause I like Mikael Pietrus

I just wish people would stop dimissing Iguodala as a 2 guard (which he played his first 3 seasons or so) or as easily replacable, he is NOT easily replacable at either the 2 or the 3 and Louis Williams is a significant downgrade

Offline bebopdeluxe

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2008, 11:11:02 AM »
jem:

I'm not going to get into an argument with you about Iguodala's worth.  Of course he's a fine basketball player with a multitude of skills.  However, on this team, it looks like he is going to be our SG of the future, and I have concerns about his skill-set as a SG (shooting, handle, ability to break down defenders on the wing in the half-court with the bounce, ability to catch-and-shoot, ability to come off screens and shoot..most quality NBA SG's can do most - if not - all of these things).

Heck - LouW can do many of those things better than Iggy.

I have heard a lot of talk over the years abouot how young Andre is...how he can still develop these things...and while that may be true, it may also not be true...and while we could argue that Iguodala is better than the Bruce Bowens and Raja Bells of the world, and that $66 million over six years may not be a ridiculous amount of money, I'm still not convinced that - given the current construction of this team - that Iguodala is the right guy to commit to (for $66 million) as our SG of the future.

Now...if we had a better shooting PG, perhaps that would not be as much as a problem (one of the reasons why I am interested in Hinrich).


Offline tk76-

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2008, 11:11:09 AM »
Hi, new poster here, posted occasionally on the realgm boards under the same name, but I doubt anyone remembered me.

Good post, esp the stats about fouls draw.  Shows he's not just settling all the time for jumpers.

And how can we forget "Pure Hatred"?  That is right up there with Welfare Fruad as the most memorable handle.

Offline TheGuiltyParty

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Re: Mr. Smith visits Philly...
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2008, 11:13:33 AM »
First of all... I don't think Iguodala straight up walks. I think he would have to be signed and then traded unless GSW comes after him. Also, I thought you trusted your boy, Ed? If he lets Iguodala go then he obviously has a plan. Close your eyes... fall backwards... and let those soft hands of Ed Stefanski cushion your drop.