Kobes cheapshot earns suspension

[westkoast]

As far as "rolling around on the floor"...that excuse is getting old.  There were only 2.7 seconds left in the game when the play STARTED.  Manu stayed on the floor after the hit because HE WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS OWN BENCH AND THE TRAINERS ATTENDED TO HIM THERE.  THE REFEREES HAD WALKED AWAY TO GET READY FOR OVERTIME SO THEY WERE NOT AROUND TO BE INFLUENCED.

So in short Manu wasn't flopping around to get a call...there was no officials around to be influenced.

How in any way, shape, or form is that an excuse?  It is an observation.  As someone who recently took a knee to the face by being ran over by a bigger player I find it hard to believe that he was hit so bad he had to cover his face with two hands cuz the pain was so extreme.  Sorry I cannot give him the benefit of the doubt.  Just like I am sure Spurs fans could not give Derek Fisher the benefit of the doubt on charging fouls.   The guy acts quite a bit on contact he recieves all the time.  Maybe you guys don't realize it in SA but people in other areas do.

Also, I never said he was trying to get them to make a call for him.  I also said I don't think that is why Kobe ended up being suspended.

[Joe Vancil]

Here is the video btw....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a7TGrVIu3o

Sorry koast, that was so intentional it's not even close.  Players flail around like they're drowning when trying to draw a call, they're arms almost always go up and act like they're signaling for a life gaurd.  Kobe clearly went after whoever blocked his shot.

I agree he intentionally threw his arms to try to get a call.  I do not think he intentionally tried to bust Manu's face up for reasons mention by various people in this thread.

westkoast,

He wasn't going after a call.  He was trying to send a message - namely, "stay back, you <insert favorite derogatory term here>."  WayOut is right on the money with where his arm would have been if he had been trying to draw a call.

[msc]

Hey MSC!!!
   
I agree without reservation that Kobe is the most polarizing athlete of his time - not only because of his snotty, self-centered/indulgent attitude, but also because of his bad behavior. These negative aspects are constantly juxtaposed with his admittedly awesome basketball skills and physical ability, producing the classic American sports horror story, a la Steve Howe (R.I.P.) of Dodgers fame.  Everyone loves watching a car wreck!  One more trip in front of the judge, and he's finished.  I was going to say something about 'Little Ivey' along these lines, but thought the better of it...LOL
   
- RB
Shaq #1

Hey RB,  

I agree and disagree.  We all can agree Kobe has a cocky attitude and that's turned a lot of people off to him.  That said, he's really only had one transgression that resulted in legal action.  I'm not making light of it, but he was acquitted, so at the very least he's guilty of adultery.  BTW, a large % of the NBA cheats on their spouses and I have first hand knowledge of several players who are well respected that do this.  A friend of mine recently had a kid by a player not to be named who is very well liked on this board who has a wife and three kids.  I'm not making excuses for that behaviour, but I'm not as quick to judge Kobe as harshly as some for committing adultery knowing what I know.  Many NBA wives know their husbands cheat and turn a blind eye because they love the lifestyle they've grown accustomed to (cars, mansions, etc.)  

Anyway, back on track.  Where I disagree with you is the comparison to Steve Howe.  This is a guy who had all of the talent in the world and unfortunately had a horrible drug addiction and could never shake it.  I'm sympathetic to those who suffer from addiction, but the reality is Kobe is probably one of the most disciplined, hard working athletes of his generation.  He doesn't do drugs; he's active in charity work.  Sure he's trying to make amends for his previous bad behavior, but the point is he is indeed trying to make amends.  I think he's matured a lot over the last several years and going through those troubles had a big impact on his personal growth.  I'd hardly say he's a "train wreck" like a Howe, Strawberry, or a JR. Rider.

I’m not looking to change your mind, and I know I never could anyway.  I know you love Shaq.  When you think about it, Shaq could have had a girl accuse him of rape after he committed adultery and he'd been in the exact same spot Kobe was in.  It only takes one transgression.  To all those who would say, "yeah but Shaq wouldn't rat out Kobe like Kobe did Shaq".  I can't make an excuse for that.  Kobe broke the unwritten law.  All I can say is Kobe has clearly taken steps to be a better man since then and I think at a certain point people have to give him a break.  Right now he's truly “damned if he does and damned if he doesn't” and this Manu incident is just another example of this.  

Peace,
 
msc

[westkoast]

Here is the video btw....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a7TGrVIu3o

Sorry koast, that was so intentional it's not even close.  Players flail around like they're drowning when trying to draw a call, they're arms almost always go up and act like they're signaling for a life gaurd.  Kobe clearly went after whoever blocked his shot.

I agree he intentionally threw his arms to try to get a call.  I do not think he intentionally tried to bust Manu's face up for reasons mention by various people in this thread.

westkoast,

He wasn't going after a call.  He was trying to send a message - namely, "stay back, you <insert favorite derogatory term here>."  WayOut is right on the money with where his arm would have been if he had been trying to draw a call.

I disagree.  The reason is that the arms have flung out that way on many "calls" for Kobe, T-Mac, and Wade.  Kobe most often when he does the swing through and someone gets his arm when he goes to shoot a jump shot.   I can't count the number of times I have seen that  play happen with his arms flailing to the side.  Now it wasn't as dramatic as it was on Sunday.  He certainly overacted to try to get the attention.  The only reason I don't see it like you do is the fact, like Lurker said, is that his eyes never leave the rim and he tries to toss up another shot.  I don't think he had enough time to think about 'sending a message' because quite frankly he was focused in on making the shot.  There was a split second to make a decision as the ball got blocked, I find it very hard to believe he was able to think 'hay I need to try to get a call' then think 'I need to send a message to Manu to not try to ever block me'  Think up that last part yourself and tell me how long it takes just to have it pop up.  Certainly much longer then getting blocked, trying to get a foul, then to continue to grab the ball and toss up another shot.

Would you say that when the other two do this, Wade most often of the two, they are too trying to send a message to the player and not the ref?  I don't think Wade is trying to send a message to the player.  I think he is trying to get the refs attention.

[Lurker]

As far as "rolling around on the floor"...that excuse is getting old.  There were only 2.7 seconds left in the game when the play STARTED.  Manu stayed on the floor after the hit because HE WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS OWN BENCH AND THE TRAINERS ATTENDED TO HIM THERE.  THE REFEREES HAD WALKED AWAY TO GET READY FOR OVERTIME SO THEY WERE NOT AROUND TO BE INFLUENCED.

So in short Manu wasn't flopping around to get a call...there was no officials around to be influenced.

How in any way, shape, or form is that an excuse?  It is an observation.  As someone who recently took a knee to the face by being ran over by a bigger player I find it hard to believe that he was hit so bad he had to cover his face with two hands cuz the pain was so extreme.  Sorry I cannot give him the benefit of the doubt.  Just like I am sure Spurs fans could not give Derek Fisher the benefit of the doubt on charging fouls.   The guy acts quite a bit on contact he recieves all the time.  Maybe you guys don't realize it in SA but people in other areas do.

Also, I never said he was trying to get them to make a call for him.  I also said I don't think that is why Kobe ended up being suspended.

To say...as most in this thread who claim it...that it wasn't that bad BECAUSE (clue: this is usually the start of an excuse) Manu rolled around on the floor, acted like a crybaby, tried to draw a call, etc. is using that claim as an excuse.

The key is that the refs weren't even looking as the game had ended (at least regulation) and they weren't there.  So I am not sure how a player lying on the floor in front of his own bench during the time between regulation and OT being attended for a bloody nose & cut lip EXCUSES the fact that his opponent decked him.  Besides the simple fact that he returned with almost 3 minutes left in overtime and immediately drove down the lane and was fouled again.  IMO the Spurs need more wimps like that.

Also it can't be a simple observation.
An observation:  Manu stayed on the floor.
An opinion:  Manu is a wimpy crybaby for staying on the floor.

Your comment...and the others...are not observations.  they are thinly veiled attacks on the victim in this incident.

[rickortreat]

Westcoast, 

IMO Kobe knew exactly where Manu was and deliberatly cracked him one.  Kobe felt his presence and had to have seem him through his peripheral vision, since the elbow went right at his head.  If he didn't know where he was, he could have swung over the top of Manu's head, or below his head.

Kobe may be trying to make amends, but no-one gets away with elbowing another player and drawing blood without paying for it, superstar or not.

Kobe could have said "nice block, Manu".  He said something else and the league called him on it.

[Reality]

The key is that the refs weren't even looking as the game had ended (at least regulation) and they weren't there.  So I am not sure how a player lying on the floor in front of his own bench during the time between regulation and OT being attended for a bloody nose & cut lip EXCUSES the fact that his opponent decked him.  Besides the simple fact that he returned with almost 3 minutes left in overtime and immediately drove down the lane and was fouled again.  IMO the Spurs need more wimps like that.
Also it can't be a simple observation.
An observation:  Manu stayed on the floor.
An opinion:  Manu is a wimpy crybaby for staying on the floor.

Your comment...and the others...are not observations.  they are thinly veiled attacks on the victim in this incident.

Right on.  And Pop is known for doing just that, getting players back on the floor if at all possible to show their mettle.  Remember earlier this year when he did it Brent Barry after he caught an Artest head to the chin that opened up a cut.

[msc]

IMO Kobe knew exactly where Manu was and deliberatly cracked him one.  Kobe felt his presence and had to have seem him through his peripheral vision, since the elbow went right at his head.  If he didn't know where he was, he could have swung over the top of Manu's head, or below his head.

How did Kobe know exactly where Manu was when he didn't even see him because Manu came from behind Kobe?  Kobe juked Finley, went up for the shot and Manu made a great play sneaking from behind and blocking the shot.  Had Kobe seen Manu or known he was there, I doubt Manu would have been able to make the block.  This all transpired in like 1 second.  There was no time for anyone, even a player as great as Kobe, to go through any kind of thought process.  It was all instinctual reaction.  And as many have pointed out, Kobe immediately starts reaching for the ball after the block and his right arm swings out in what looks to me to be a natural action to maintain balance mid air.  

In watching the game in real time, it happened so fast it really looked to me to be an obvious case of incidental contact.  Now we're watching it over and over in slo-mo and making all of these assumptions about what Kobe was thinking and intending.  It really was just a split second incidental contact on a last second shot.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Pop and Manu said the same thing.  

Now, Kobe's elbow to Mike Miller last year was clearly intentional and done in retaliation.  That was clear.  I don't see how anyone can make that statement about this incident.  Actually I do see; it's because they hate Kobe and can't be objective.  

[westkoast]

As far as "rolling around on the floor"...that excuse is getting old.  There were only 2.7 seconds left in the game when the play STARTED.  Manu stayed on the floor after the hit because HE WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS OWN BENCH AND THE TRAINERS ATTENDED TO HIM THERE.  THE REFEREES HAD WALKED AWAY TO GET READY FOR OVERTIME SO THEY WERE NOT AROUND TO BE INFLUENCED.

So in short Manu wasn't flopping around to get a call...there was no officials around to be influenced.

How in any way, shape, or form is that an excuse?  It is an observation.  As someone who recently took a knee to the face by being ran over by a bigger player I find it hard to believe that he was hit so bad he had to cover his face with two hands cuz the pain was so extreme.  Sorry I cannot give him the benefit of the doubt.  Just like I am sure Spurs fans could not give Derek Fisher the benefit of the doubt on charging fouls.   The guy acts quite a bit on contact he recieves all the time.  Maybe you guys don't realize it in SA but people in other areas do.

Also, I never said he was trying to get them to make a call for him.  I also said I don't think that is why Kobe ended up being suspended.

To say...as most in this thread who claim it...that it wasn't that bad BECAUSE (clue: this is usually the start of an excuse) Manu rolled around on the floor, acted like a crybaby, tried to draw a call, etc. is using that claim as an excuse.

The key is that the refs weren't even looking as the game had ended (at least regulation) and they weren't there.  So I am not sure how a player lying on the floor in front of his own bench during the time between regulation and OT being attended for a bloody nose & cut lip EXCUSES the fact that his opponent decked him.  Besides the simple fact that he returned with almost 3 minutes left in overtime and immediately drove down the lane and was fouled again.  IMO the Spurs need more wimps like that.

Also it can't be a simple observation.
An observation:  Manu stayed on the floor.
An opinion:  Manu is a wimpy crybaby for staying on the floor.

Your comment...and the others...are not observations.  they are thinly veiled attacks on the victim in this incident.

Lurker where did I say that Kobe's foul was okay, let alone not 'as bad because Manu rolled around on the ground' ??  I never made such a statement.  Not even close.  No where did I use Manu's dramatics as an excuse for what Kobe did.  Or an excuse on why the league suspended him.  Please show me where I made any such statements.

I also did not say he did it for the refs to make a call.  I don't believe he did.  That still doesn't mean he did not milk it in my eyes.  You are saying he has no reason to milk the call because the refs left that area of the court.  As if there could not be any other reasons....maybe to motivate the team?  Why does he get gumby like when going to the basket everytime even though he does not get the calls in his favor on the road?  The basic idea here is to draw attention right?

Did you ever think the fact he was so quick back into the game after hitting the ground like he has a major injury says something also?  I know you've been wacked in the face in basketball before.  Did you fall to the ground and cover your face in the same manner Manu did?  He had both hands over his face in a peek-a-boo kind of way.  That is an observation.  It is also stems from the fact he acts when he gets contact normally.  No one gives Derek Fisher the benefit of the doubt when a charge is called because he is known for flopping.  So why exactly does the same not apply to Manu when he is known (and not just by Laker fans, I believe Marc Jackson and the other commentator made a comment about it during the telecast) for doing the same?

Also, I never said he was a wimp.  I said he was overexaggerating.  In fact, one of the reasons I felt he was overexaggerating is the fact that he does take so much contact during the course of a year.  He should be a little bit used to getting hit, smacked, grabbed, pulled, and whatever else word you want to describe what happens.   Why is it that you get on Randy for putting words in your mouth then you turn around and do the same to me?  And what other Laker posters are saying around here is not what westkoast is saying.  We do not brainstorm on posting ideas for each of our names in a collective manner.

[Reality]

Now, Kobe's elbow to Mike Miller last year was clearly intentional and done in retaliation.  That was clear.  I don't see how anyone can make that statement about this incident.  Actually I do see; it's because they hate Kobe and can't be objective.  

WayOutWest  Sorry koast, that was so intentional it's not even close.  Players flail around like they're drowning when trying to draw a call, they're arms almost always go up and act like they're signaling for a life gaurd.  Kobe clearly went after whoever blocked his shot.

WayOutWest, you hate Kobe and can't be objective.  Wow, this coming on the heels of Joe, Wolverine and rt also being unobjective Kobe Haters.

[Rolando Blackman]

Sure he's trying to make amends for his previous bad behavior, but the point is he is indeed trying to make amends.  I think he's matured a lot over the last several years and going through those troubles had a big impact on his personal growth.  

Hey msc!!!
  
First of all, thank you for the thoughtful, well-reasoned post - it was totally 'old-school', if I may say so...bravo!  

The masthead for this article from Y2K says it all - at least for me...

http://www.brainerddispatch.com/stories/062000/nsp_0620000002.shtml

msc, I have tried hard to dismiss the hatred (literally) that I feel for Kobe Bryant (and by extension, Busschak and the LAL) for getting 'The Big Continuous' bounced out of L.A., and with him any hope for another LAL championship while I am still here on this earth (snif) - however, I cannot bring myself to do it.  I even root for the 'Kobe-Stopper' (Reuben Patterson) to shut Bryant down these days - that's how much of a #8/24 (fodder for another dis - LOL) 'hater' I am.!  However, I only was a true 'athletic supporter' of Shaq when he was in his #34 jersey...l still think 'The Pachyderm' is the 'Most Dominant Ever (M.D.E.)', but that is as far as it goes - sadly, after all these years of bleeding 'Forum Blue and Gold' (Chickie Baby - snif...) I am a 'fan without a team'.
  
BTW, Jerry Buss needs to forget about video interviews - back in the 'Showtime' days, he could get away with his polyester-and-gold-chain look, but now he just comes off as a doddering old man...unfortunately, I'm getting up there as well myself!

 
- RB
Shaq #1

[msc]

WayOutWest, you hate Kobe and can't be objective.  Wow, this coming on the heels of Joe, Wolverine and rt also being unobjective Kobe Haters.

I don't want to speak for these guys, but it has seemed to me over the years that rt and Joe are ... don't really know about Wolverine.  That said, Joe's always seemed objective to me.  We just plain disagree on this.  I think a lot of the disagreement has to do with whether you watched this incident in real time when it happened, or continue to discect the slo-mo replay.  Real time, to me it was clearly incidental.  You slow something down so much that it starts to look like there was more time going by than there really was.  BTW, I don't think it looks intentional in slo-mo either.   

And WOW thinks Jack in the Crack tacos are better than Tito's, so I can only conclude that his opinions are as tainted as his taste buds! 

[msc]

Hey msc!!!
  
First of all, thank you for the thoughtful, well-reasoned post - it was totally 'old-school', if I may say so...bravo!  

The masthead for this article from Y2K says it all - at least for me...

http://www.brainerddispatch.com/stories/062000/nsp_0620000002.shtml

msc, I have tried hard to dismiss the hatred (literally) that I feel for Kobe Bryant (and by extension, Busschak and the LAL) for getting 'The Big Continuous' bounced out of L.A., and with him any hope for another LAL championship while I am still here on this earth (snif) - however, I cannot bring myself to do it.  I even root for the 'Kobe-Stopper' (Reuben Patterson) to shut Bryant down these days - that's how much of a #8/24 (fodder for another dis - LOL) 'hater' I am.!  However, I only was a true 'athletic supporter' of Shaq when he was in his #34 jersey...l still think 'The Pachyderm' is the 'Most Dominant Ever (M.D.E.)', but that is as far as it goes - sadly, after all these years of bleeding 'Forum Blue and Gold' (Chickie Baby - snif...) I am a 'fan without a team'.
  
BTW, Jerry Buss needs to forget about video interviews - back in the 'Showtime' days, he could get away with his polyester-and-gold-chain look, but now he just comes off as a doddering old man...unfortunately, I'm getting up there as well myself!

 
- RB
Shaq #1

Great post, RB, I must say it's great to have you back even if you don't bleed Purple and Gold any longer.  Yeah, we don't need to re-hash anymore than we already have.  It's unfortunate that Big Aristotle and Kobme couldn't keep it together to potentially challenge the Celtics record. 

I couldn't agree with you more re: Jerry Buss's look.  In this day and age, with the gold chain, unbuttoned shirt, surrounded by 8 blond bimbos, he just looks like a dirty old man to me.  Of course I like what he's done with the franchise and have a lot of respect for the man as a businessman and team owner, but aesthetically speaking he's definitely creepy. 

I also respectfully disagree with you about Mitch Kupchak.  Many Laker fans have chided him the last couple of years, but I stuck by him knowing that he has a great basketball mind, is a class guy, learned at the feet of The Logo, has that North Carolina b-ball foundation, etc.  Even though the Lakers have a ways to go before they’re competing for another trophy, I think they’re in great shape right now with a solid combination of youth, speed and depth.  I think Mitch and Dr. Buss deserve credit for that. 

[westkoast]

Hey msc!!!
  
First of all, thank you for the thoughtful, well-reasoned post - it was totally 'old-school', if I may say so...bravo!  

The masthead for this article from Y2K says it all - at least for me...

http://www.brainerddispatch.com/stories/062000/nsp_0620000002.shtml

msc, I have tried hard to dismiss the hatred (literally) that I feel for Kobe Bryant (and by extension, Busschak and the LAL) for getting 'The Big Continuous' bounced out of L.A., and with him any hope for another LAL championship while I am still here on this earth (snif) - however, I cannot bring myself to do it.  I even root for the 'Kobe-Stopper' (Reuben Patterson) to shut Bryant down these days - that's how much of a #8/24 (fodder for another dis - LOL) 'hater' I am.!  However, I only was a true 'athletic supporter' of Shaq when he was in his #34 jersey...l still think 'The Pachyderm' is the 'Most Dominant Ever (M.D.E.)', but that is as far as it goes - sadly, after all these years of bleeding 'Forum Blue and Gold' (Chickie Baby - snif...) I am a 'fan without a team'.
  
BTW, Jerry Buss needs to forget about video interviews - back in the 'Showtime' days, he could get away with his polyester-and-gold-chain look, but now he just comes off as a doddering old man...unfortunately, I'm getting up there as well myself!

 
- RB
Shaq #1

Great post, RB, I must say it's great to have you back even if you don't bleed Purple and Gold any longer.  Yeah, we don't need to re-hash anymore than we already have.  It's unfortunate that Big Aristotle and Kobme couldn't keep it together to potentially challenge the Celtics record. 

I couldn't agree with you more re: Jerry Buss's look.  In this day and age, with the gold chain, unbuttoned shirt, surrounded by 8 blond bimbos, he just looks like a dirty old man to me.  Of course I like what he's done with the franchise and have a lot of respect for the man as a businessman and team owner, but aesthetically speaking he's definitely creepy. 

I also respectfully disagree with you about Mitch Kupchak.  Many Laker fans have chided him the last couple of years, but I stuck by him knowing that he has a great basketball mind, is a class guy, learned at the feet of The Logo, has that North Carolina b-ball foundation, etc.  Even though the Lakers have a ways to go before they’re competing for another trophy, I think they’re in great shape right now with a solid combination of youth, speed and depth.  I think Mitch and Dr. Buss deserve credit for that. 

I personally think he lucked out and he has been kind of falling back on the fact that Phil Jackson and his staff are pretty darn good at getting players to work together.

The reason being he made two moves on his own this past year, Radmonvich and Mo Evans.  No one thought Mo Evans was going to play as well as he did, I feel he lucked out with that.  Rad-man is a waste of money plain and simple.  The Bynum pickup was not his choice either, it was Buss' son that forced the hand to get him.

[Reality]

msc  

We just plain disagree on this.

That is so much better then some "Anybody who saw it differently is an unobjective Kobe Hater."
Also, please stop saying GNob came behind Kobe.  He came from the side, 90 degrees.  Probably more like 75 or 80.  Kobe certainly could have seen GNob in his peripheal.  Behind Kobe was the Spurs bench, not GNob.  GNob actually brushed and bumped Bowen as GNob cut in front of Bowen to get close to Kobme for the block.