Kobes cheapshot earns suspension

[Laker Fan]

Thank you Lurker, your ability to reevaluate your opinion and change it demonstrates your objectivity, something I've always appreciated in you. I completely agreed with 'Koast and MSC and simply could not understand your falling for the spin and name calling so pevalent whenever Kobe's name pops up on this board, although we have gotten almost numb to the hatefilled name calling lack of objectivity.

[Joe Vancil]

I've just seen the video.

That is obviously no exaggeration to draw a foul by Bryant.  A move to draw a foul would have been in the opposite direction - from the presumed contact.

Is it a balance reaction?  NO.  Such a reaction would have involved Bryant's arm coming straight down - not flailing.  Flailing would pull Bryant out-of-balance - unless he knew he was going to make contact.  Plus, there's the problem that Bryant isn't off-balance in the first place.  If he were, Ginobili couldn't have blocked the shot.  Furthermore, if it were a balance reaction, that suggests that Kobe Bryant had sufficient time to plan his reaction - unless, of course, he swings his arm wildly like that after EVERY shot.

My take is that this is what I would call a "natural reaction for Bryant."  That's far from what I'd describe as a "natural reaction," however.  "Conditioned response" would be more appropriate.

Bryant has an affinity to hitting people in the face with elbows after big shot-blocks.  He did the same thing to Dirk Nowitzki last year - his SHOOTING ARM flailing wildly to the side.  It's a learned behavior - and one meant to send a message to shot-blockers;  "Come after me, and you pay a price."

Did he intentionally mean to hit Ginobilli in the face?  I can't honestly say...because I can't say that Bryant "aimed" the arm-swing.  He meant to hit Ginobilli - I can't say for certain that it was intended to be in his face.  But I do suspect it.

This is Bryant.  This is what he does.  And the league sent a message that it's aware of what is going on.  Bryant can pretend outrage all he wants, but this was a follow-up to what happened last year, when Bryant hit Wade, Nowitzki, and Miller all within a week.  (In Bryant's defense, the Wade contact *WAS* incidental.)  The league sent him a message then - mostly, because it could no longer avoid it after the Miller incident (and especially given that Cuban was pressing the issue).  This is the follow-up message in case he thought that the reason he got two games last time was just because of the Miller incident.

It's just bad, spoiled player behavior that the league has warned Bryant about in the past, and that's the reason this got a suspension.

[Joe Vancil]

Do you play basketball?  And if you don't...do not act like you've never seen someone make this same motion while getting fouled on a jump shot.

I play basketball every week - multiple times when not nursing injury, coach two different little league teams, watch religiously, play fantasy basketball, post on message boards, and study the game.

I've seen MANY players make this same motion, and there *IS* something common about the plays on which this happens.  It's not that the player got fouled.  The common thread is that the player's shot was blocked - sometimes cleanly and legitimately, sometimes not.  And it's always the same players who do it, and it happens whether or not there's a referee around to try to elicit a foul call from. 

[rickortreat]

Kobe deserved that suspension.  That elbow was directed at Manu's head.  MJ never got away with taking a cheap shot on someone so Phil should shut up.

And you Laker fans who didn't think the suspension was justified- you are morons.

It was deliberate.  No way does that elbow find Manu's face on a "flail".  You're so full of it, that it's disgusting!

And, that is my opinion after seeing it for the first time thanks to the youtube link.

[westkoast]

Do you play basketball?  And if you don't...do not act like you've never seen someone make this same motion while getting fouled on a jump shot.

I play basketball every week - multiple times when not nursing injury, coach two different little league teams, watch religiously, play fantasy basketball, post on message boards, and study the game.

I've seen MANY players make this same motion, and there *IS* something common about the plays on which this happens.  It's not that the player got fouled.  The common thread is that the player's shot was blocked - sometimes cleanly and legitimately, sometimes not.  And it's always the same players who do it, and it happens whether or not there's a referee around to try to elicit a foul call from. 

You and I are saying the exact same thing here.  I never once said he didn't flail his arms to draw attention for a foul.  He knew he got blocked and that is why he tried to throw up another shot. All I was trying to say was   that this is not the first, second, or last time this is going to happen.  Star players do this cuz the league lets them get away with it.

I also agree this is a learned movement/reaction.  The star players such as Kobe and Wade (who does this on the regular also) have learned they can draw calls that way by acting.  Is it wrong? Yes cuz it is the offensive version of flopping.  Do I see why they made the call? Sure.  After reading your take I certainly see it in another direction.    I do not agree with the suspension though because I do not feel it was intentional to hurt him.   

I stand by what I said when I think Manu overreacted to getting hit.  Watched it again on TiVO last night and while he did not lay on the ground for exactly 5 minutes there was a little bit of milking it.  The reason I say that is how he put his hands over his face and rolled back and forth a few times.  To me that seemed a little overboard for a player who gets banged up nightly.   I don't think that is why he (Kobe) ended up with the suspension.  The point Joe made is a good one and I think could be what Stu Jackson was thinking.  If they start calling this on other star players who do the same thing then the league is not being unfair.  So Laker fans will have to wait and see before jumping to conclusions about it.  This is offensive flopping and if we all are going to complain about flopping on the defensive end...then we need to also complain about this.  Regardless if it is Kobe, Wade, Bron, or T-Mac.

Also  he didn't direct the elbow at Manu's head.  Manu came from somewhat behind him.  How can you aim without seeing the player?  Second, it was actually his forearm that hit Manu across the face and not his elbow.  That is why so much damage was done across his nose and lip.

edit: There was no collision between Manu and Kobe.  Now if Kobe would have been more balanced in his jump shot then Manu probably would have ended up going into him.  Since Kobe was some what leaning  and Manu came from behind him, it kept them from colliding.  Def not a foul in any point in the game and certainly not worth sending a player to the line  in the final minutes.

[Reality]

By-the-way, Lurker, I don't think anything stinks worse than Reality's spins -- in fact, I imagine that there are some posters on here who are reacting to Reality AND his spins.  I know I tire of them -- it's why I visit this board so infrequently these days -- back in the days of the old board, we used to police the board together and not allow this kind of crap over and over and over again!  I guess it's why this board gets old for me!

On the old board I as others had complete freedom of speech.  You, LFD and the other "pro Krishna only" pushers in no way shape or form were allowed to dictate.  Talk about crap.
LakerFanDanno are you going to compliment Joe and rt for their "objectivity"?  Ha!
You twos silly spins that I am the only one who saw the Kobe play in non Krishna light just took (yet another) hit.

[Randy]

By-the-way, Lurker, I don't think anything stinks worse than Reality's spins -- in fact, I imagine that there are some posters on here who are reacting to Reality AND his spins.  I know I tire of them -- it's why I visit this board so infrequently these days -- back in the days of the old board, we used to police the board together and not allow this kind of crap over and over and over again!  I guess it's why this board gets old for me!

On the old board I as others had complete freedom of speech.  You, LFD and the other "pro Krishna only" pushers in no way shape or form were allowed to dictate.  Talk about crap.
LakerFanDanno are you going to compliment Joe and rt for their "objectivity"?  Ha!
You twos silly spins that I am the only one who saw the Kobe play in non Krishna light just took (yet another) hit.

Did I say dictate?  No, I didn't -- once again you twist and spin away -- I said "police!"  Police don't dictate actions -- just consequences -- you can do whatever you want to but on the old board there were consequences as the posters policed the board.

I'm REALLY tired of your crap, Reality -- you spin EVERY single post and nobody seems to care.  I'm done -- you can have this board!!!

[Wolverine]

I think it's obvious Bryant intentionally tried to make contact with Ginobili.  Was he trying to hurt him?  Eh.  Tough call.  Bryant has a history of this type of act, and whether or not it's an attempt to receive a call is irrelevant.  Regardless of the reason, if you flail your arm after shots or throw elbows at people, eventually you're going to injure someone

I'm guessing the league's decision to suspend him was simply an effort to limit these situations in the future.

[WayOutWest]

I finally got to see the play this morning.  The suspension was warrented.  I agree it's hard to believe it was intentional from an NBA player BUT if you've ever played b-ball yourself you KNOW that there are times when you whack a player for various reasons.  If someone I didn't like made a clean block on my game winning shot and I was an arrogant player like Kobe I would have done the same, INTENTIALLLY whacked him and hoped I get a call or at least send a message to him.

It's like throwing a rock at a bird, you don't really think you're gonna hit it but the intent is there and every now and then you REGRETABLY connect.

If the roles were reversed, or if it was Bruce Bowen whacking Kobe, I'd say the same thing, beutiful block and punk move on the shooters part.

[WayOutWest]

Here is the video btw....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a7TGrVIu3o

Sorry koast, that was so intentional it's not even close.  Players flail around like they're drowning when trying to draw a call, they're arms almost always go up and act like they're signaling for a life gaurd.  Kobe clearly went after whoever blocked his shot.

[westkoast]

Here is the video btw....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a7TGrVIu3o

Sorry koast, that was so intentional it's not even close.  Players flail around like they're drowning when trying to draw a call, they're arms almost always go up and act like they're signaling for a life gaurd.  Kobe clearly went after whoever blocked his shot.

I agree he intentionally threw his arms to try to get a call.  I do not think he intentionally tried to bust Manu's face up for reasons mention by various people in this thread.

[Lurker]

Stu Jackson's explanation...

"Some of the determining factors were the fact that there was contact made with Ginobili above the shoulders and the fact that this particular action by Kobe was an unnatural basketball motion. Following a shot, he drove a stiff arm in a backward motion and struck Ginobili in the head," Jackson said. "We did not view this as an inadvertent action."

No foul was called on the play.

"This blow was so swift in real time that it's understandable why, in fact, an official would have missed the contact," Jackson said. "In our view, this was not an attempt to draw a foul."

[jn]

Thanks for that Lurker.  Why then,  was Carlos Boozer not suspended for his recent action of intentionally throwing his arm back into Mark Madsen's throat and whipping Mad Dog to the floor?  Why was KG given only one game for pushing Antonio McDyess in the back, swiping a closed fist across the chest of and throwing the ball into McDyess AFTER the whistle had been blown?

Perhaps if McDyess and Mad Dog had taken time to flop around on the floor like complete sugartits the ruling would be different.

By the way I'd also like to thank kinesiologists/mind readers like Stu and some on this board for being able to determine intent and the definition of an "unnatural basketball motion" with %100 accuracy.   

[Rolando Blackman]

Kobe is the most polarizing athlete of his time.  It has clearly translated from the fan base to the league, to the officials.  He's brought a lot of it on himself due to his cockiness and attitude.  I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears here, but Phil is right in that Kobe is not getting the premier player treatment that he deserves.  Just watching Wade get every whistle when he's barely touched, while Kobe would go down and get mugged by three Heat players in the MLK day game was a prime example of who the new golden child is and who's in the dog house with the refs these days. 

Hey MSC!!!
   
I agree without reservation that Kobe is the most polarizing athlete of his time - not only because of his snotty, self-centered/indulgent attitude, but also because of his bad behavior. These negative aspects are constantly juxtaposed with his admittedly awesome basketball skills and physical ability, producing the classic American sports horror story, a la Steve Howe (R.I.P.) of Dodgers fame.  Everyone loves watching a car wreck!  One more trip in front of the judge, and he's finished.  I was going to say something about 'Little Ivey' along these lines, but thought the better of it...LOL
   
- RB
Shaq #1

[Lurker]

As far as "rolling around on the floor"...that excuse is getting old.  There were only 2.7 seconds left in the game when the play STARTED.  Manu stayed on the floor after the hit because HE WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS OWN BENCH AND THE TRAINERS ATTENDED TO HIM THERE.  THE REFEREES HAD WALKED AWAY TO GET READY FOR OVERTIME SO THEY WERE NOT AROUND TO BE INFLUENCED.

So in short Manu wasn't flopping around to get a call...there was no officials around to be influenced.