end of game heroics

[westkoast]

You are correct you did not bring up Ron Artest, I did and for good reason.  1) Being hes your new favorite player, 2 ) you hate  Kobe and I like him so I brought up a player we both like to watch thats fits what we are speaking on and 3) He, just like Kobe, has got on the bad side of certain officials which makes a difference on certain calls, good example? Last night with Bowen.

Who said that Kobe is not getting enough calls to satisfy me?  Where in this board did I say 'poor Kobe' or even get mad?  What I said is that his numbers have dropped due to shooting more jumpers and pissing off certain refs.  Do I realize he gets more calls than Joe Blow basketball player? Yes.  My gripe wasn't that he doesnt get enough calls, in fact I have no gripe at all.  Thought it was pretty clear in my posts in this thread but I guess not.  I was simply pointing out that he pissed off certain refs and it has led to him getting hammered under the rim with no whistles being blown.  I didn't even put 100% blame on the refs, I put most of the blame on Kobe for running his mouth did I not?  Please show where I said 'poor Kobe' or that I went into fury mode because he didnt get those calls?  Heck even in my original comments after the game I made on this very board I did not even come close to giving you that idea.  That was you doing what you do best, try to bend what Laker fans are saying into the polar opposite of what you hold to be true because you are ASSUMING that is what we are thinking.  That or you just are very bored at work today.

If you don't want me to assume you are thinking a certain way then don't do the same to me.  I never said poor Kobe or hinted to it.  I blamed him for the non-calls about 3-4 times in this very thread.  So again, if you don't want people to assume you are thinking one way do not turn around and do the same exact thing in another post.

[rickortreat]

It is a fact of life in the NBA that certain top-line players get more calls than others, and that the front-running teams get more breaks from the refs than the bad teams.

Iverson gets more free throws than anyone, but many times the refs don't call fouls on him.  Dalmebert gets more stupid fouls than anyone I've ever seen, but most times they are well-deserved.  Igoudala used to get the benefit of the doubt as a great defensive player, but more often than not these days he gets called for the foul.

IMO, the refs can't help it.  The teams at the top are better- better passers, better at getting position for rebounds, have better execution, etc.  Every once in a while, the lesser team is going to get the short end of it from the refs.  But I would also say that it's up to the lesser team to outplay the other team.  If they can do that, the refs won't interfere (in general!)

I used to hate how MJ would get oppossing players into foul trouble simply because they breathed on his airness.  Or how they would ignore the travelling calls when he went up for a spectacular dunk.  

Players aren't as good as they used to be when it comes to fundamentals,  lots of palming, double dribbles and up and downs aren't called anymore, even though they occur more frequently.

Kobe isn't going to get as many calls as he used to because his team is no longer a front runner.  He's still a great talented player.  He just says some stupid things from time to time that alienate teamates and fans.  He's not the only one, but my perception is that he ought to know better than a whack job like Ron Artest!    

 

[JoMal]

You are correct you did not bring up Ron Artest, I did and for good reason.  1) Being hes your new favorite player, 2 ) you hate  Kobe and I like him so I brought up a player we both like to watch thats fits what we are speaking on and 3) He, just like Kobe, has got on the bad side of certain officials which makes a difference on certain calls, good example? Last night with Bowen.

 

Yes, I do like Artest more now that he is a King then before, but as Randy would note, that is sooooo bizarre. As he would never acknowledge openly but no doubt wishes, Kwame Brown has looked like the next coming of Jabber now that he wears a Laker jersey. It never would dawn on someone like Randy or any other true fan of their team that changing addresses affect how local fans perceive that player.

I am not a fan of Bryant "THE PERSON", but a big fan of Bryant the player. He is good, after all. I do not think he is as good as he thinks he is, though, running his one-man basketball teams at times, and his obvious need to be the "hero", taking the late Laker shots in tight games most of the time.  

So when you point out how certain refs seem to have it in for him, and he suddenly is finding his butt on the hardwood under the basket with no call being made, I find it rather amusing to think this is perceived as a unique attitude reserved only for Kobe, as opposed to, say Rasheed Wallace, who threatened a referee after a game in Portland once, and gets T's with regularity. If only the Lakers could suffer this persecution of one of their players as well as Detroit, maybe a deep foray into the post season could be possible.

Who said that Kobe is not getting enough calls to satisfy me?  Where in this board did I say 'poor Kobe' or even get mad?  What I said is that his numbers have dropped due to shooting more jumpers and pissing off certain refs.  Do I realize he gets more calls than Joe Blow basketball player? Yes.  My gripe wasn't that he doesnt get enough calls, in fact I have no gripe at all.  Thought it was pretty clear in my posts in this thread but I guess not.  I was simply pointing out that he pissed off certain refs and it has led to him getting hammered under the rim with no whistles being blown.  I didn't even put 100% blame on the refs, I put most of the blame on Kobe for running his mouth did I not?  Please show where I said 'poor Kobe' or that I went into fury mode because he didnt get those calls?  Heck even in my original comments after the game I made on this very board I did not even come close to giving you that idea.  That was you doing what you do best, try to bend what Laker fans are saying into the polar opposite of what you hold to be true because you are ASSUMING that is what we are thinking.  That or you just are very bored at work today.

That last bit is cute - bending what Laker fans say into the polar opposite of what is meant. I am not Randy, westkoast, but thanks for the insulting comparison. If you perceive that I am doing that, just acknowledge that I learned THAT trait from the best.

As for spin-doctoring regarding the assessment of "Poor Kobe", (why did you think I was quoting something YOU said? I was just labelling the attitude with something that fit) you left that door wide open and I just assumed you expected someone to come on in, so don't get your undies in a bind over it - I just did what the opportunity warranted. What is clear to me, and what SHOULD be clear to you, is that refs get "attitude" from players every single day they work, so what makes Kobe's facial expressions or reactions any more meaningful to them then a negative reaction from a Rasheed Wallace or Ron Artest, who make a living on this "attitude"?    

If you don't want me to assume you are thinking a certain way then don't do the same to me.  I never said poor Kobe or hinted to it.  I blamed him for the non-calls about 3-4 times in this very thread.  So again, if you don't want people to assume you are thinking one way do not turn around and do the same exact thing in another post.

Thanks for the advice, but that would totally defeat the purpose.

[westkoast]

So when you point out how certain refs seem to have it in for him, and he suddenly is finding his butt on the hardwood under the basket with no call being made, I find it rather amusing to think this is perceived as a unique attitude reserved only for Kobe, as opposed to, say Rasheed Wallace, who threatened a referee after a game in Portland once, and gets T's with regularity. If only the Lakers could suffer this persecution of one of their players as well as Detroit, maybe a deep foray into the post season could be possible.

Uhh JoMaL, I hate to hit you with facts but Kobe is one technical away from getting the same suspension that Sheed Wallace just got.  He is #2 on the technical list this year.  So I guess that blows this whole paragraph out of the water  :up:

That last bit is cute - bending what Laker fans say into the polar opposite of what is meant. I am not Randy, westkoast, but thanks for the insulting comparison. If you perceive that I am doing that, just acknowledge that I learned THAT trait from the best.

LOL, I call it how it is and that is what you did.

As for spin-doctoring regarding the assessment of "Poor Kobe", (why did you think I was quoting something YOU said?

You said Laker fans and posted on a message board.  Since I am a resident Laker fan of this message board and probably one of the few Laker fans you discuss basketball with on a consistant basis I believe it was directed at me, Randy, msc, and LD being we are the Laker fans around here.

I was just labelling the attitude with something that fit) you left that door wide open and I just assumed you expected someone to come on in, so don't get your undies in a bind over it - I just did what the opportunity warranted. What is clear to me, and what SHOULD be clear to you, is that refs get "attitude" from players every single day they work, so what makes Kobe's facial expressions or reactions any more meaningful to them then a negative reaction from a Rasheed Wallace or Ron Artest, who make a living on this "attitude"?

You would have to ask them that JoMaL.  Kobe was not percieved like that by all of them  and he still is not ( except for a few refs in this league right now ).  I do not however have a boom mic on the court to hear exactly what is going on and I have actually only sat close enough to hear the on court banter twice.  Heck the refs could dislike him as a person just like you do.  Like I said though, I am not sure and I am not bitching.....I am just pointing something out.  Never once did I say poor Kobe and if you check my comments after the game I didnt say 'Oh the Lakers lost cuz the dumb refs wouldnt put Kobe on the line'

Ron has actually been a bit more mild and Sheed did a good job the previous 2 years in Detroit but his rep still proceeds him.  Kobe seems to be heading down that path as he was T'd up the other night for handing a ball to the ref.  No comment was made and he didnt even look at the ref but the official felt he did it in a mean fashion.  Which is the same way they justify techs on Ron Artest and Sheed Wallace when they award them T's for petty things.

Thanks for the advice, but that would totally defeat the purpose.

Well then dont get mad when I do the same =]

[msc]

It is a fact of life in the NBA that certain top-line players get more calls than others, and that the front-running teams get more breaks from the refs than the bad teams.

Iverson gets more free throws than anyone, but many times the refs don't call fouls on him.  Dalmebert gets more stupid fouls than anyone I've ever seen, but most times they are well-deserved.  Igoudala used to get the benefit of the doubt as a great defensive player, but more often than not these days he gets called for the foul.

IMO, the refs can't help it.  The teams at the top are better- better passers, better at getting position for rebounds, have better execution, etc.  Every once in a while, the lesser team is going to get the short end of it from the refs.  But I would also say that it's up to the lesser team to outplay the other team.  If they can do that, the refs won't interfere (in general!)

I used to hate how MJ would get oppossing players into foul trouble simply because they breathed on his airness.  Or how they would ignore the travelling calls when he went up for a spectacular dunk. 

Players aren't as good as they used to be when it comes to fundamentals,  lots of palming, double dribbles and up and downs aren't called anymore, even though they occur more frequently.

Kobe isn't going to get as many calls as he used to because his team is no longer a front runner.  He's still a great talented player.  He just says some stupid things from time to time that alienate teamates and fans.  He's not the only one, but my perception is that he ought to know better than a whack job like Ron Artest!

Very well said, Rickortreat. I agree with every one of your points.  

[Reality]

Wk, all that is true.

Which boosts my argument and does not diminish it.

Since I never said, nor implied, that Ron Artest does not get calls in his favor either, I guess I am at a loss as to his relevance to this, other then what I said before about him complaining about a foul during a game in which he felt Bowen was more deserving of some calls more then he, for which he got T'ed up - gee, maybe he IS still Ron Artest yet to some referees as well?. Do you think?

Whether Ron gets away with stuff is not really relevant at all to Bryant NOT getting enough calls to satisfy you Laker fans or not. I would prefer that everyone played on an even and fair basketball court, but as stated, some players seem to garnish a bit more favor in that regard. It is just terribly amusing to hear how poor Kobe suddenly is not so rosy-cheeked any more in regards to some referees.

 How many times Ron Artest has been knocked to the court driving in the lane and the only result is that a blocked shot is recorded for the opponent has gone well beyond twenty or thirty times since he joined the Kings, but it does not matter. What does is that apparently poor Kobe is also getting blasted under the basket and the same non-calls are (not) happening.

At last, Bryant has earned a new designation. We can from now on call him "Poor Kobe Bryant", if that is satisfactory with you and your fellow Laker fans. A bit mocking, maybe, but we must persevere if these sad times in the Kobe Bryant era are to be properly remembered.

 :rofl:

Jomal, I'm tearing up. :cry:  

[JoMal]

Uhh JoMaL, I hate to hit you with facts but Kobe is one technical away from getting the same suspension that Sheed Wallace just got.  He is #2 on the technical list this year.  So I guess that blows this whole paragraph out of the water  :up:

...and I repeat - "If only the Lakers could suffer this persecution of one of their players as well as Detroit, maybe a deep foray into the post season could be possible."

If Wallace can handle the tech's, and the consequences, then so should the Lakers and Poor Kobe.

LOL, I call it how it is and that is what you did.

Hardly, but if it makes you happy.....

Talk about reading more into someone's original statement then was intended.

You said Laker fans and posted on a message board.  Since I am a resident Laker fan of this message board and probably one of the few Laker fans you discuss basketball with on a consistant basis I believe it was directed at me, Randy, msc, and LD being we are the Laker fans around here.

Is this some of that twisting of words around that you were talking about? I don't need a demonstration, WK. I freely admitted that I was the one who referred to Bryant as "Poor Kobe". But if you wish to continue this line of twisting, eventually you will come back to yourself and get all in knots over it, so be carefully, will ya?

You would have to ask them that JoMaL.  Kobe was not percieved like that by all of them  and he still is not ( except for a few refs in this league right now ).  I do not however have a boom mic on the court to hear exactly what is going on and I have actually only sat close enough to hear the on court banter twice.  Heck the refs could dislike him as a person just like you do.  Like I said though, I am not sure and I am not bitching.....I am just pointing something out.  Never once did I say poor Kobe and if you check my comments after the game I didnt say 'Oh the Lakers lost cuz the dumb refs wouldnt put Kobe on the line'

Apology accepted, but it wasn't really necessary.

Well then dont get mad when I do the same

When you actually DO the same, I certainly will try to keep my cool, amigo.

[JoMal]

Kobe isn't going to get as many calls as he used to because his team is no longer a front runner.  He's still a great talented player.  He just says some stupid things from time to time that alienate teamates and fans.  He's not the only one, but my perception is that he ought to know better than a whack job like Ron Artest!

Well, a whack job like Ron Artest certainly has no business getting fewer technicals then POOR KOBE does. But then we must have shifted into Bizarro World at some point this season if the refs have started to diss POOR KOBE on his lane driving.  

[msc]

Well, a whack job like Ron Artest certainly has no business getting fewer technicals then POOR KOBE does. But then we must have shifted into Bizarro World at some point this season if the refs have started to diss POOR KOBE on his lane driving.

Exactly!  JoMal, I knew you would understand.  

[Guest_westkoast]

...and I repeat - "If only the Lakers could suffer this persecution of one of their players as well as Detroit, maybe a deep foray into the post season could be possible."

If Wallace can handle the tech's, and the consequences, then so should the Lakers and Poor Kobe.

Right.  Does this (Kobe neck and neck with Sheed) not prove that some officials have a problem with him? I think it does.  Does this also prove that he does something (body language or with his words) that causes them to feel this way towards him this season? I think those are both 'yes' What have I been saying?  That his FTs have gone down because he is shooting more jump shots and getting less calls in his favor only to go on and say I think it has to do with his actions?  Can you explain to me again how my original coment was pathetic if you are pointing out what I said in the first few  posts you quoted?

Hardly, but if it makes you happy.....

Talk about reading more into someone's original statement then was intended.

Admit I am good at the parody aspect of message board posting!

Is this some of that twisting of words around that you were talking about?

DING DING DING

Apology accepted, but it wasn't really necessary.

I know, I wasnt apologizing!

When you actually DO the same, I certainly will try to keep my cool, amigo.

Again...the posting the polar opposite of what someone.....nevermind.....sigh



 

[JoMal]

Right.  Does this (Kobe neck and neck with Sheed) not prove that some officials have a problem with him? I think it does.  Does this also prove that he does something (body language or with his words) that causes them to feel this way towards him this season? I think those are both 'yes' What have I been saying?  That his FTs have gone down because he is shooting more jump shots and getting less calls in his favor only to go on and say I think it has to do with his actions?  Can you explain to me again how my original coment was pathetic if you are pointing out what I said in the first few  posts you quoted?

 

NO, westkoast, it does not prove the refs are out to 'get him'. It DOES probably prove that POOR KOBE no longer can getting away with some of the antics he could in previous years.

My take on all this: POOR Kobe is somewhat egotistical; this attitude built up over years of his early times in the NBA where he played on championship teams that gave him and his fellow Lakers a bit of freedom with the refs, shall we say. Times changed, but Kobe's ego did not, of course, change with them.

He still considers himself an elite player in the NBA (why would he not) who is due those same beneficial non-calls or calls as the case may be. But he stops getting them as frequently as he once did, as the refs adjust to the new situation in LaLa land involving the Lakers. (Possibly the success of their co-tenants - the Clippers - has added to this reviewed image by the refs). This, naturally, frustrates an egotistical fellow like POOR Kobe no end, as this is NOT how he expects the world (the refs) to be treating one of the young stars in the NBA.

Alas, POOR Kobe is no longer all that young, and there are younger stars taking his place in the hearts and minds of NBA fans and officials alike - Guys like James, Wade, Anthony - and the affections of the refs naturally shift longingly towards these younger players, leaving POOR Kobe to cope with being dumped. His off-court problems exacerbate the situation and, let's face it, his lack of a close network of yes-men who could advise him has never been in place, so he is left to deal with his new lack of respect on his own.

So he exhibits a newfound response reaction on the court, trying to get the refs to notice how ill they have been treating him, which garnishes him the additional attention for which he thirsts in the form of technical fouls. He fumes visibly, so fans and such can note his frustration, while inside he cherishes these moments of renewed attention. You must remember - it is the ATTENTION jones that POOR Kobe covets, above all else.  

I knew my philosophy 101 course would come in handy some day.  

Admit I am good at the parody aspect of message board posting!

Parody is the warmest of compliments, I must admit.

DING DING DING

Now our smilies have sound affects?  :bash:

I know, I wasnt apologizing!

Modest too. How endearing.

Again...the posting the polar opposite of what someone.....nevermind.....sigh

See? Always thinking  :crazy:

[JoMal]

Well, a whack job like Ron Artest certainly has no business getting fewer technicals then POOR KOBE does. But then we must have shifted into Bizarro World at some point this season if the refs have started to diss POOR KOBE on his lane driving.

Exactly!  JoMal, I knew you would understand.

I understand all, msc. That is my gift, as well as my curse.

But I have been taking a magic elixir for it.  :drunk:  

[westkoast]

NO, westkoast, it does not prove the refs are out to 'get him'. It DOES probably prove that POOR KOBE no longer can getting away with some of the antics he could in previous years.

You are making it sound as if I am saying they have a conspiracy going on to lower his FT shooting.  I said many times he has given them reasons to not be so quick to blow the whistle.  Getting away with antics??? Or maybe he is the only vocal leader on the team who has to fight for players like Sasha, Mihm, and Parker who cannot argue for themselves??  Did that ever come across your mind JoMaL?  Or is it always soooo negative LOL

My take on all this: POOR Kobe is somewhat egotistical; this attitude built up over years of his early times in the NBA where he played on championship teams that gave him and his fellow Lakers a bit of freedom with the refs, shall we say. Times changed, but Kobe's ego did not, of course, change with them.

And I dont expect your opinion to be any different than that.  I would say that is true, now is it playing favortism just for POOR KOBE and the POOR Lakers...or is this something that happens to good teams and players all around the league?  POOR Superstars and good teams.  POOR Ron Artest doesn't get away with what Bruce Bowen does now.

He still considers himself an elite player in the NBA (why would he not) who is due those same beneficial non-calls or calls as the case may be. But he stops getting them as frequently as he once did, as the refs adjust to the new situation in LaLa land involving the Lakers. (Possibly the success of their co-tenants - the Clippers - has added to this reviewed image by the refs). This, naturally, frustrates an egotistical fellow like POOR Kobe no end, as this is NOT how he expects the world (the refs) to be treating one of the young stars in the NBA.

They are not "adjusting" he is doing something different the second half of this year than even the last...which is letting his emotions get the best of him and saying/doing something that *certain* refs do not like.  All his T's are not coming from arguing for himself just to let you know but again, I apologize for tossing out information that doesn't keep your opinion dead on.  

Alas, POOR Kobe is no longer all that young, and there are younger stars taking his place in the hearts and minds of NBA fans and officials alike - Guys like James, Wade, Anthony - and the affections of the refs naturally shift longingly towards these younger players, leaving POOR Kobe to cope with being dumped. His off-court problems exacerbate the situation and, let's face it, his lack of a close network of yes-men who could advise him has never been in place, so he is left to deal with his new lack of respect on his own.

LOL!!!!  Good one, Love the somewhat pointless sarcastic rant.  Although I did not know that refs EVER shifted to give younger players calls, stars or not.  Maybe you should dial up the refs and tell them they forgot your golden rule when it comes to Zo, Karl Malone, etc

So he exhibits a newfound response reaction on the court

Yes it is called fighting for your teammates and letting your emotions gets the best of you.

, trying to get the refs to notice how ill they have been treating him, which garnishes him the additional attention for which he thirsts in the form of technical fouls.

Here we go again with th sarcastic rant by JoMaL.  Ever think about writing those supermarket romance novels with Fabio on the front?  "As Kobe thirsts for the passion of the everlasting love of the white and black clad elder statesmen" LOL

I guess anyone who has ever argued calls are trying to get "the regs to notice how ill they have been treating" the players and that it has been "garnishing" the additional attention in which they seek for the other end of the call when they are not being consistant.

 

He fumes visibly, so fans and such can note his frustration, while inside he cherishes these moments of renewed attention. You must remember - it is the ATTENTION jones that POOR Kobe covets, above all else.   

Anne Rice?!?!?!?!

Parody is the warmest of compliments, I must admit.

Looks like I got my point across.

Now our smilies have sound affects?  :bash:

Yes, they are new and improved just make sure to turn your speakers up to volume 11 like spinal tap.

Modest too. How endearing.

Yes it is a strong point of mine...much like your ability to be condescending.

See? Always thinking  :crazy:

Always thinking.......about writing romance novels?!

[JoMal]

Here we go again with th sarcastic rant by JoMaL.  Ever think about writing those supermarket romance novels with Fabio on the front?  "As Kobe thirsts for the passion of the everlasting love of the white and black clad elder statesmen" LOL

I guess anyone who has ever argued calls are trying to get "the regs to notice how ill they have been treating" the players and that it has been "garnishing" the additional attention in which they seek for the other end of the call when they are not being consistant.

 

He fumes visibly, so fans and such can note his frustration, while inside he cherishes these moments of renewed attention. You must remember - it is the ATTENTION jones that POOR Kobe covets, above all else.   

Anne Rice?!?!?!?!

 

It is hard not to notice how POOR Kobe's life parallels the made up fiction found in romance novels, but I will have to defer to your obviously superior knowledge in that media for confirmation. Though I am sure you must be alluding to this trait in POOR Kobe's life, sans the romance or titillation, of course.

Parody is the warmest of compliments, I must admit.

Looks like I got my point across.

Yeah, wk. It looks like you got YOUR point across.  :rofl:

Modest too. How endearing.

Yes it is a strong point of mine...much like your ability to be condescending

How can you say that I am condescending after all this time? I thought I was being patronizing. <note subtle difference> B)

See? Always thinking  :crazy:

Always thinking.......about writing romance novels?!

Writing romance novels would be easier then this.