end of game heroics

[westkoast]

And for the record Vlade use to do the same thing.  If you so much as touch Manu lightly on his way to the hoop he flings his body around as if someone dropped the A-Bomb in downtown SA.

[Guest_Randy]

Reality, theatrics exist on BOTH ends of the court -- offense and defense.  

Think about it this way -- in 2 minutes and 20 seconds Manu shot NINE ft's.  Hmm, you seem to STILL blow a gasket when the Lakers shot 28 ft's in the 4th quarter but NINE ft's in a critical 2 min and 20 secs?  At that rate, Manu would have shot 46 ft's in one quarter.  But sure, I'm sure ALL of Manu's were earned while Kobe (who is DEFINATELY a better player than Manu) has always received his as a gift from the refs.

[Guest]

So let me get this straight.  If Manu scores the last 14 for his team, he's a stud.  If McGrady scores the last 14 for his team, he's a stud.  If Kobe scores the last 14 for his team, he's a ball hog.  Got it, that makes a lot of sense.

 

Yourself, Randolph and Starbucks have concluded that if Kobe was to score the last 14 in a close win it would be selfish and bogus.  I don't know if you base that on the thousands of bogus calls he has lead the league in (along with Fatquile), but I assume that is what you are conditioned to.

Myself, if Kobe was to get the last 14 in a game including 9-9 FTs, i would want to see the game before determining.  I think it is entirely possible for Kobe to score the last 14 legitimately.  He has never done this, probably never will, but i think he could.  This year he has had a few small stretches where he was called fairly.  Certainly more then any other season.  Some say this is due to his marketability being down, others say the some refs have just grown tired of his crinkling up his face every time his misses and expects the refs to award him bogus FTAs.  While I do not know for a fact, it does always seem to be about $$$$ or lack of.

As to Euros flopping on O any more then Americans, I don't see it.
Plus while many NBA players flop, it doesn't mean they get the calls equally.  How many calls does DeReek Fisher get now that he is up in Golden State? :rolleyes:  

[Reality]

^^^ In case you didn't know it, that was not Randy, Westkoast LFD or msc.

[westkoast]

Fisher stills draws plenty of charges in GS.  In fact he got quite a few on the Lakers this season....watching games is important when speaking on things!

So Euro's only flop more on the defensive end but not on the offensive end?  Even ESPN comentators have made comments about Manu jerking his body to get the call in his favor.

[JoMal]

This is hilarious -- Francis isn't a selfish ballhog?  That's funny!  And because Artest and Dalembert aren't selfish ballhogs on the court, they don't affect the team's win/loss record?  Ask the Pacers how Artest is helping them on the court this year!

Wow.

(not WayOutWest, WOW, but the common use of the 'wow' expression)

He may not be helping the Pacers on the court because he was traded for Peja, but I think the argument could be made that Peja has helped out the Pacers quite a bit since he was added to their lineup, and Artest has simply put the Kings into the playoff hunt practically singlehandedly.

To include Artest in this thread as a selfish player who hurts his team by his selfish play or selfish attitude, while at one time maybe carrying some merit, would of late seem a bit ridiculous.  

As for scoring 14 points in just over two minutes, or whatever some unnamed player did, or that McGrady did, or that a selfish Kobe may have attempted to do -do you guys hear how you sound?

Did their respective teams win the games in question? If they did, I am sure the teammates were more then happy to see their guy take over these games and bring home the win.

But if they tried to do it and utterly failed (is that the main complaint regarding Kobe here?), then perhaps the selfish shooting at game's end was unwarranted.

But you only have to bring your team back from the brink once to earn that rep, and then try to duplicate it every chance you get.

Now THAT could end up being a problem.  

[JoMal]

And Kobe dropping from #1 to #3 has to do with the stretch of time then.....he was shooting more outside jumpers because they were dropping for him.  That and he pissed two refs in particular off and they will let him get battered up before they even think about blowing the whistle.

 :bs:  :puke:

That comment is pathetic, westkoast.

When did Kobe suddenly join the ranks of 99.9% of the other NBA players, who get tanked on calls regularly, but don't have Kobe's past rep to fall back on to justify his apologist's arguing about the non-calls?

[westkoast]

And Kobe dropping from #1 to #3 has to do with the stretch of time then.....he was shooting more outside jumpers because they were dropping for him.  That and he pissed two refs in particular off and they will let him get battered up before they even think about blowing the whistle.

:bs:  :puke:

That comment is pathetic, westkoast.

When did Kobe suddenly join the ranks of 99.9% of the other NBA players, who get tanked on calls regularly, but don't have Kobe's past rep to fall back on to justify his apologist's arguing about the non-calls?

Why is it pathetic?  Steve Javie and another ref (forget his name) have done this a number of times and its due to Kobe running his mouth.  This happend a few weeks ago where Kobe was attacking the rim for the entire game and shot his first 2 FTs towards the end of the 3rd quarter.

Why is it when another poster makes the  same comment its okay but since I say it I look pathetic trying to take up for Kobe?  Re-read this thread JoMaL, someone said the same thing I did.  Lets all join in on calling him pathetic also  :rolleyes:

I guess Reality is also pathetic and taking up for Kobe?

others say the some refs have just grown tired of his crinkling up his face every time his misses and expects the refs to award him bogus FTAs. 

[JoMal]

My point, WK, is that Kobe is more likely to be awarded foul shots then not because of who he is. Ron Artest got hacked on every possession playing with Bowen on him last night and then gets called for a foul himself for trying to clear some space, and gets T'ed up for jumping around in circles in protest.

So... sorry if you feel that Kobe is on the short end of it on occasion with the refs, but he has gotten plenty of benefits of the doubt calls in his history and frankly is way overdue to join the rank and file players who can't even complain about the unfairness of how refs call these games without consequences either.

So he is getting less calls and more T's. My point is, so what? He should get the same treatment as other star players on both ends of the court. Eventually he will come to the realization that he may no longer get differential treatment from the refs all that much and will have to adapt and quit the facials and body language that, BTW, hardly merits a shrug from your average ref, who could care less how a particular player reacts to him other then calling a foul a foul when he sees it.

[westkoast]

My point, WK, is that Kobe is more likely to be awarded foul shots then not because of who he is. Ron Artest got hacked on every possession playing with Bowen on him last night and then gets called for a foul himself for trying to clear some space, and gets T'ed up for jumping around in circles in protest.

 

JoMaL, EVERYONE in the league has that happen to them when they play Bruce Bowen.  Kobe too.

And whether or not he is more likely to get calls than Gadzurich is beside the point.  My point was that part of the reason his FTs have gone down is because 1) hes taking more jump shots and 2) in a stretch of games he was not getting alot of calls due to the fact he pissed some refs off.  Now I understand missing calls here and there...I also understand sometimes he thinks it should be a foul when maybe it shouldnt.  There was a number of games (ill have to search the board cuz I made comments about it here) where they were not blowing whistles on purpose probably due to his own comments/actions.

[Guest_Randy]

My point, WK, is that Kobe is more likely to be awarded foul shots then not because of who he is. Ron Artest got hacked on every possession playing with Bowen on him last night and then gets called for a foul himself for trying to clear some space, and gets T'ed up for jumping around in circles in protest.

So... sorry if you feel that Kobe is on the short end of it on occasion with the refs, but he has gotten plenty of benefits of the doubt calls in his history and frankly is way overdue to join the rank and file players who can't even complain about the unfairness of how refs call these games without consequences either.

So he is getting less calls and more T's. My point is, so what? He should get the same treatment as other star players on both ends of the court. Eventually he will come to the realization that he may no longer get differential treatment from the refs all that much and will have to adapt and quit the facials and body language that, BTW, hardly merits a shrug from your average ref, who could care less how a particular player reacts to him other then calling a foul a foul when he sees it.

Oh, no, it's the "Kings never get any foul calls" -- again!!!

Artest has NOBODY to blame but himself.  He actually gets BREAKS on the other end of the court -- the same breaks that Bowen gets being known as a "defensive specialist."  

I've never complained that Kobe isn't getting to the ft line -- it's up to Kobe to put pressure on the refs to make the calls.  He has spent a LOT of time whining to refs lately -- that doesn't help -- at ALL!  (unless you are Karl Malone)

I think it's hilarious when fans change their minds about players simply because they don a different jersey!   :rofl:  

[JoMal]

[JoMaL, EVERYONE in the league has that happen to them when they play Bruce Bowen.  Kobe too.

...and 2) in a stretch of games he was not getting alot of calls due to the fact he pissed some refs off.  Now I understand missing calls here and there...I also understand sometimes he thinks it should be a foul when maybe it shouldnt.  There was a number of games (ill have to search the board cuz I made comments about it here) where they were not blowing whistles on purpose probably due to his own comments/actions.

WK, again, my point is - if you can actually TELL when the calls going in favor of Kobe have dropped off, then clearly there can be some argument that some favoristism had been going in his direction BEFORE and now when he gets the same treatment as most others, it suddenly just LOOKS like a backlash when in actuality it is probably just a more evenly called game instead.  

[JoMal]

Oh, no, it's the "Kings never get any foul calls" -- again!!!

Artest has NOBODY to blame but himself.  He actually gets BREAKS on the other end of the court -- the same breaks that Bowen gets being known as a "defensive specialist."  

I've never complained that Kobe isn't getting to the ft line -- it's up to Kobe to put pressure on the refs to make the calls.  He has spent a LOT of time whining to refs lately -- that doesn't help -- at ALL!  (unless you are Karl Malone)

 

Randy, your continuous rants about this is getting trite  :rolleyes:

Against Bowen, he got frustrated with the "Bowen Rules", sure, but I was simply citing it as an example of how these calls tend to go and did not mean that Artest was right in complaining, just that he had a normal reaction to what he perceived as non-calls going against him just like any other basketball player can expect playing Bowen.

That Kobe is complaining more is what I would call a symtom of his expectations from BEFORE, when he could have defecated on the court and gotten a technical called on the other team for stepping in it.

Maybe those days are gone, who knows. But if Bowen were playing for Atlanta, his deferential favorable calls on his defense would soon disappear, I would imagine, just as they have for Bryant now that the Lakers are more of an average team rather then an elite team.

BTW, Artest never complains about how foul calls go for the reason you stated , so singling out Bowen has as much to do with his expectations that the Kings will be playing the Spurs in the playoffs, if they make it, and this is probably his version Jackson zenism as much as actual venom. As he noted, he personally has a good relationship with Bowen, unlike Ray Allen or Kobe. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that yourself.

I think it's hilarious when fans change their minds about players simply because they don a different jersey!   :rofl:

Now you're either being totally naive or just suffering from selective amnesia so as to come off as being totally contradictory.

[westkoast]

[JoMaL, EVERYONE in the league has that happen to them when they play Bruce Bowen.  Kobe too.

...and 2) in a stretch of games he was not getting alot of calls due to the fact he pissed some refs off.  Now I understand missing calls here and there...I also understand sometimes he thinks it should be a foul when maybe it shouldnt.  There was a number of games (ill have to search the board cuz I made comments about it here) where they were not blowing whistles on purpose probably due to his own comments/actions.

WK, again, my point is - if you can actually TELL when the calls going in favor of Kobe have dropped off, then clearly there can be some argument that some favoristism had been going in his direction BEFORE and now when he gets the same treatment as most others, it suddenly just LOOKS like a backlash when in actuality it is probably just a more evenly called game instead.

JoMaL whats your point?  That Kobe, like every other star in this league, gets more calls than regular players?  That includes your boy Ron Artest and a whole list of other players.  REVELATION!@(!*@#

And I noticed his FT shooting has dropped off after it was mentioned he dropped and I chalked it up to more jump shooting and those games where he shot 4 FTs in entire games....which is well under his average.  When a player is getting hammered under the rim and shots are air balling with no calls then its a foul regardless of someone's personal bias or not.

[JoMal]

[JoMaL, EVERYONE in the league has that happen to them when they play Bruce Bowen.  Kobe too.

...and 2) in a stretch of games he was not getting alot of calls due to the fact he pissed some refs off.  Now I understand missing calls here and there...I also understand sometimes he thinks it should be a foul when maybe it shouldnt.  There was a number of games (ill have to search the board cuz I made comments about it here) where they were not blowing whistles on purpose probably due to his own comments/actions.

WK, again, my point is - if you can actually TELL when the calls going in favor of Kobe have dropped off, then clearly there can be some argument that some favoristism had been going in his direction BEFORE and now when he gets the same treatment as most others, it suddenly just LOOKS like a backlash when in actuality it is probably just a more evenly called game instead.

JoMaL whats your point?  That Kobe, like every other star in this league, gets more calls than regular players?  That includes your boy Ron Artest and a whole list of other players.  REVELATION!@(!*@#

And I noticed his FT shooting has dropped off after it was mentioned he dropped and I chalked it up to more jump shooting and those games where he shot 4 FTs in entire games....which is well under his average.  When a player is getting hammered under the rim and shots are air balling with no calls then its a foul regardless of someone's personal bias or not.

Wk, all that is true.

Which boosts my argument and does not diminish it.

Since I never said, nor implied, that Ron Artest does not get calls in his favor either, I guess I am at a loss as to his relevance to this, other then what I said before about him complaining about a foul during a game in which he felt Bowen was more deserving of some calls more then he, for which he got T'ed up - gee, maybe he IS still Ron Artest yet to some referees as well?. Do you think?

Whether Ron gets away with stuff is not really relevant at all to Bryant NOT getting enough calls to satisfy you Laker fans or not. I would prefer that everyone played on an even and fair basketball court, but as stated, some players seem to garnish a bit more favor in that regard. It is just terribly amusing to hear how poor Kobe suddenly is not so rosy-cheeked any more in regards to some referees.

 How many times Ron Artest has been knocked to the court driving in the lane and the only result is that a blocked shot is recorded for the opponent has gone well beyond twenty or thirty times since he joined the Kings, but it does not matter. What does is that apparently poor Kobe is also getting blasted under the basket and the same non-calls are (not) happening.

At last, Bryant has earned a new designation. We can from now on call him "Poor Kobe Bryant", if that is satisfactory with you and your fellow Laker fans. A bit mocking, maybe, but we must persevere if these sad times in the Kobe Bryant era are to be properly remembered.