Igoudale gets ripped off.

[Guest_Randy]

Now Nate was not the first person to jump over someone for a dunk in the contest but I do not remember anyone jumping over someone taller than themself. Spud has a few inches on Nate Robinson. I don't think that has been done before at least I cannot remember it happening

It's actually easier to have a higher veritical for someone smaller than larger.  A small person HAS to get up higher to dunk, but it is easier for them to get up higher.  So, a small person clearing a 45" vertical is easier than a 6'7" guy clearing a 45 inch vertical.

Last year Josh Smith cleared KMart sitting on a chair.  I'd imagine that's about the same height as spud standing straight up.  And remember, he didn't clear spud, as his feet went to the side, his....um....cajones cleared spud (in fact, his leg kicked spud in the face).

It's actually easier to have a higher veritical for someone smaller than larger.  A small person HAS to get up higher to dunk, but it is easier for them to get up higher.  So, a small person clearing a 45" vertical is easier than a 6'7" guy clearing a 45 inch vertical.

What?  So you are saying that shorter people can jump higher?  I must have missed this physics class -- not to mention that I don't recall a lot of short high jumpers.

[SPURSX3]

He showed more creativity in his dunks.

That's what I don't get.  What creativity?

His 2nd dunk was between the legs.  Been done.  One of the exact same dunks iggy is being criticized for not being original (except iggy came from the side with his weak hand, which is considerably harder than coming from straight forward with your strong hand) .  His 3rd was literally a straight alley oop.  I've seen Iggy get more creative in live games, much less an exhibition dunk contest.  His 4th dunk was jumping over someone, which, again, isn't new.  And his last dunk was, after taking away the pre-jump theatrics, was a half windmill off the backboard.

What exactly was new about nate's dunks?  I saw very little originality up until the throw in the dunk-off.

The creativity was the setup, first off, he had to be fast enough to cross over and cross back UNDER his legs (both of which were off the ground, and THEN setup up his ally oop from HALF court.  Mind you, with all the attempts he was doing you would think his legs would start losing some of thier "ups."  Nope, the little guy STILL had the leg strength to get up there.  I probably would feel just as biased if it had been a Spurs in the competition (LOL @ that happenning!).  There is only soo much you can do to make the Dunk contest interesting now, Robinson brought some interest back to it IMO.  Now if Iggs could have beaten that by Hopping over Yao ming, while jumping off Spud Webbs back, doing a 360, windmill dunk dunk while slapping Karl Malone across the face - then I would have said he should be the dunk winner.   But THAT didn't happen, so I was a little let down by Iggy... :rolleyes:  

[Derek Bodner]

You just said that its harder for smaller guys to dunk. Shouldn't Nate be given extra points for his ability to hang in the air?! That 360 dunk has been done before by a number of guys but not quite as sweet comming from someone as small as he is. IMO that is a much more difficult dunk at that height. Okay so its easier for smaller guys to jump high...that still doesn't mean hes not covering alot of ground going up to just be able to throw down any dunk. Let alone 360s and double between the legs alley oops.

As for the Spud Webb jump, that was more like Nate one upping the mini-dunker by dunking over him. I took it more as him saying Spud was good but I am the new small guy who hammers it down.

Ig showed no creativity in his other 3-4 dunks after that first one either. All the dunks he did we had seen before. I thought he could have tried a little bit of harder instead of thinking one dunk was going to win it all with the crowd/fans. Was I the only person watching the contest jumping up and down on all the close misses Nate had with that half court under the legs lob?

Yes, it's far easier.  each year at the nba pre-draft combine, the nba publishes vertical. Go run a correlative relationship on height/vertical.  smaller people have more compact legs and less mass to push up, thus equating to higher verticals.  

Let's think about this logically.  How many 7'ers do you know with the vertical of Iguodala?  None.  It continues to work that way.  The difference is, most of the bigtime dunkers are 6'5-6'7" because they don't need the hangtime.  Guys like Steve Francis have as much hangtime as guys like Jason Richardson, but they don't have the hand-size to palm a basketball.

You just said that its harder for smaller guys to dunk. Shouldn't Nate be given extra points for his ability to hang in the air?!

Yes, but this isn't a high jumping competition.  This is a dunking contest.  Iguodala's dunks, IMO, were far better (AND more creative, I have yet to have someone argue with my why Nate's dunks were creative).  The fact that Nate is 5'9" doesn't change that.

I mean, that would be like putting Duncan in the skills competition than giving him extra points because he's tall.

As for the Spud Webb jump, that was more like Nate one upping the mini-dunker by dunking over him. I took it more as him saying Spud was good but I am the new small guy who hammers it down.

1) What does that have to do with the quality of dunk?
2) Nate's not in spudd's class

All the dunks he did we had seen before

His 3rd dunk, throw the ball up, bounce it, catch it behind the back, and windmill behind the back, who's done that?

Doing that behind the back with the catch was new, and added an entire new level of complexity.

Was I the only person watching the contest jumping up and down on all the close misses Nate had with that half court under the legs lob?

Yes.

Outside of the throw, what was even remotely creative about that dunk?  What was creative about his prior 3 dunks?

[Derek Bodner]

The creativity was the setup, first off

I've said the throw was creative.  What about his other 4 dunks?

(BTW, I'm only arguing this event this much because I thought the rest of all-star weekend was a snoozer).

[Derek Bodner]

And I do also find it ironic that Nate forced a dunkoff by jumping over Spud, who got eliminated from the 87 dunk contest for missing 2 dunks in a row in the first round.  

[rickortreat]

To the biggest issues were:

1. The bias of the judges for the little guy.  When he won the contest the fans didn't cheer.  They didn't boo out of politness, but could not believe that Nate was awarded the title.  Iverson and Iggy and Kobe were incredulous.

2.  How many times should a player get to try a dunk before being disquaified?  Nate turned it into a snoozefest by trying a shot more than twice.  Crap he tried doing the dunks more than 5 times before getting it right.  I would have disqualified him for that.  Either work on the dunks so you can pull them off the first time, or try something that doesn't depend on a lucky toss from a no-talent looser.

3.  Nate is taller than Spud.  I was at the contest in Dallas, (Spud was from there) and in that contest he only needed a second chance to pull of his dunks, and they were spectacular.  (Much much better than Nate's.)

Anyone who goes aroung wearing a Nate jersey is going to get laughed at.  

[guest-koast]

Let's think about this logically. How many 7'ers do you know with the vertical of Iguodala? None. It continues to work that way. The difference is, most of the bigtime dunkers are 6'5-6'7" because they don't need the hangtime. Guys like Steve Francis have as much hangtime as guys like Jason Richardson, but they don't have the hand-size to palm a basketball.

Notice the 'most of the bigtime dunkers are 6'5-6'7.  Not 5'7.  Whether you want to admit or not being a foot shorter, regardless of smaller guys being able to jump higher,  he is at a disadvantage.  He doesn't have 3 foot long arms.   You act as if any small guy can get up that high.  Earl Boykins cant dunk.  In fact he barely can hit the bottom of the backboard.  Damon Stoudamire?  Can't dunk like that.  Alot of those smaller guys simply cannot do what he was doing.  You have guys 6'7 who can't even get off 360s and they have the length in their arms to get over the rim easier.  That is one thing you forgot to mention...arm length.  That makes a difference also.

Yes, but this isn't a high jumping competition. This is a dunking contest. Iguodala's dunks, IMO, were far better (AND more creative, I have yet to have someone argue with my why Nate's dunks were creative). The fact that Nate is 5'9" doesn't change that.

I mean, that would be like putting Duncan in the skills competition than giving him extra points because he's tall.

Actually it is a high jumping competition in a sense.  You have to be able to leap high and hang in order to do dunks that qualify as slam dunk contest type dunks.  His dunks were not far better.  That one dunk was creative.  You have yet to tell us why Andre's other dunks were so creative.  They were all done before.  The fact that Nate is 5'7 (and no hes not 5'9 they have him listed wrong) limits the dunks he can do.  Nate Robinson cant run from the FT line and dunk.  There are certain dunks he just cannot do.  No excuse for Andre though.  He thought he had it locked up after that one dunk and proceeded to do dunks we all have seen.  No creativity on the other ones.

Uhh with the Duncan comparision your going into apples and oranges territory.  The skills compeition focuses in on passing and shooting mainly I didn't know Duncan's heigth affects his ability to throw a bounce pass and shoot from the top of the key.  Robinson however is at a disadvantage due to his size.  There is no getting around that.

1) What does that have to do with the quality of dunk?
2) Nate's not in spudd's class

1) It was paying homage to a slam dunk contest legend and it was also to put on a show for the crowd.  Why is it that whats-his-name from Atlanta gets major points for putting on a Wilkens jersey to do a dunk last year and Nate gets no points for bringing Spudd in?  This contest is to please the crowd and that is what he did.  Its not just the dunk but how much the crowd enjoys it.  You guys are judging this as if its the olympics LOL.  

2) Nate is a better dunker than Spudd is.

His 3rd dunk, throw the ball up, bounce it, catch it behind the back, and windmill behind the back, who's done that?

Doing that behind the back with the catch was new, and added an entire new level of complexity.

I think you need to watch the dunk contest again because you must not have seen the same one I did.  He did not catch it behind his back then windmill behind his back.  You mean he caught the ball in front of him, put it behind his back, then did a windmill.  Who has done that before?  Jason Richardson.  He did it like 3 years ago.  Ig only slightly modified it.  What about all his other "creative" dunks?

I like how you are giving Andre major props for the behind the back dunk yet Nate Robinson gets no creativity points for being able to jump in the air, hang, put the ball between his legs twice like a dribble, lob it, and then catch it and dunk it.  The timming on that is crazy.  Tell me who has done that before???

Yes.

Outside of the throw, what was even remotely creative about that dunk? What was creative about his prior 3 dunks?

Uhh the throw made it creative and his timming made it a nice dunk.  That's like me saying 'aside from the fact he caught the pass behind the backboard  what made Andre's dunk creative' cuz we've seen people dunk who tight rope the baseline come under the backboard and come around to dunk it in regular season games.  Makes no sense.  The timming required to do that is hard for anyone, but even more hard for someone who has to get up in the air faster to even be able to dunk it in the first place.  Guys who have longer arms can get away with not having to get up that quick.  Nate does not have the same luxury.  He has to spring up QUICKLY just to grab that lob and that is after going behind the legs twice, landing, then getting to the right spot to jump.

Aside from all of this Nate Robinson got the crowd and fans into the contest and at the end of the day that is what it is about.   The people I watched it with were pulling for Nate because they were enjoying what he was doing.  I actually like Andre so I was pulling for him until I felt he stopped trying to be creative and just went through the motions based on that one crazy dunk.

[Derek Bodner]

Notice the 'most of the bigtime dunkers are 6'5-6'7. Not 5'7. Whether you want to admit or not being a foot shorter, regardless of smaller guys being able to jump higher, he is at a disadvantage

dude, I brought up the vertical discussion with smaller guys directly relating it to jumping over spudd.  You're debating arguments I never made.  Of course being taller gives you an advantage overall, I admitted as such when I said most guys in the competition are tall guards.

Actually it is a high jumping competition in a sense.

No, being able to jump high is a requirement, it's not what wins the contest.

1) It was paying homage to a slam dunk contest legend and it was also to put on a show for the crowd. Why is it that whats-his-name from Atlanta gets major points for putting on a Wilkens jersey to do a dunk last year and Nate gets no points for bringing Spudd in? This contest is to please the crowd and that is what he did. Its not just the dunk but how much the crowd enjoys it. You guys are judging this as if its the olympics LOL.

I'm arguing for difficulty and creativity.  If it were just about what the fans want, they clearly showed who they thought won at the end when they booed nate robinson.

I think you need to watch the dunk contest again because you must not have seen the same one I did. He did not catch it behind his back then windmill behind his back. You mean he caught the ball in front of him, put it behind his back, then did a windmill.

Wrong.
http://www.phillyarena.net/files/dunk_cont...gy_3_replay.mpg
Andre thew the ball, jumped, turned, then caught the ball and windmilled it.  Obviously, the judges agreed, as they gave him his 2nd consecutive 50.

Uhh the throw made it creative and his timming made it a nice dunk

Like I said, the throw was creative.  The timing aspect I take away from on the 14 attempts he had.  "Great timing", to me, indicates an ability to do it consistently and regularly.  He got the timing down once out of 14.  Many of the other throws didn't even hit the backboard.  To me, that's not great timing.  When he *finally* completed the dunk I was woefully unimpressed, ESPECIALLY with the dunk itself (like I said, the "timing" aspect of it gets negated, to me, when you fail on the timing 14 consecutive times).

You still haven't argued what about nate was creative.  You said he got hangtime.  Yes he did.  But, and I'll ask this question again, what outside of the throw was creative in Nate's entire repoirtoire (sp?)?

[Derek Bodner]

BTW, Iggy's last dunk is being COMPLETELY underrated.  The other ones who have done under the legs from the baseline have gone from the underneath the basket to away from the basket (towards the free throw line).  Iggy did it backwards, and then needed to reverse dunk it rather than just go from the front of the rim.

But I think all people saw was the under the legs bit, and gone "oop, done before!", even though he added a whole new degree of difficulty to it.

http://www.phillyarena.net/files/dunk_cont...dunk_iggy_5.mpg

[guest-koast]

dude, I brought up the vertical discussion with smaller guys directly relating it to jumping over spudd. You're debating arguments I never made. Of course being taller gives you an advantage overall, I admitted as such when I said most guys in the competition are tall guards.

Well I was mistaken then.  Not only does being taller give you an advantage.  Being smaller limits the kinds of dunks that you can do.  Nate can only do so many dunks because of how short he really is.

No, being able to jump high is a requirement, it's not what wins the contest.

In this case it is what wins the contest.  Seeing a small guy jump that high and dunk is impressive to anyone and especially impressive to the casual fan.  

I'm arguing for difficulty and creativity. If it were just about what the fans want, they clearly showed who they thought won at the end when they booed nate robinson.

How are you going to please a crowd that is going nuts one minute then booing another?  As for difficulty, I think Nate's dunks (aside from that crazy dunk by Igs) were harder for timming reasons.  Also, as mentioned by Randy I am suprised he didn't start to lose the spring in his legs after a while.  Easier or not for a smaller player to get up high thats still alot of ground to cover and should take alot out of your legs.

Wrong.
http://www.phillyarena.net/files/dunk_cont...gy_3_replay.mpg
Andre thew the ball, jumped, turned, then caught the ball and windmilled it. Obviously, the judges agreed, as they gave him his 2nd consecutive 50.

Jason Ricardson already did that dunk but from the baseline 2-3 years ago.  Like I said he didn't catch it behind his back.  He caught it in front of him and then put the ball behind his back.  J-Rich actually did that already and also did the reverse Vince Carter dunk by putting the ball behind his back then through his legs.

Like I said, the throw was creative. The timing aspect I take away from on the 14 attempts he had. "Great timing", to me, indicates an ability to do it consistently and regularly. He got the timing down once out of 14. Many of the other throws didn't even hit the backboard. To me, that's not great timing. When he *finally* completed the dunk I was woefully unimpressed, ESPECIALLY with the dunk itself (like I said, the "timing" aspect of it gets negated, to me, when you fail on the timing 14 consecutive times).

You still haven't argued what about nate was creative. You said he got hangtime. Yes he did. But, and I'll ask this question again, what outside of the throw was creative in Nate's entire repoirtoire (sp?)?

You should also take away the attempts from Andre then for his dunks because he wasn't nailing them first try either.  Regardless of how many times Nate took, which I agree diluted what he was doing, what I am getting out when I say timming is how hard it is for a smaller guy to get to a spot and then elevate quick enough to be able to catch the ball to dunk.  You have to get off the ground fairly quickly to meet the ball at the right spot when you are that small.  The lob almost has to be perfect for him to even have a chance.  Guys like Andre, T-Mac, Kobe, etc have a little bit more leeway when it comes to their dunks because they have the heigth to help them out.

You still haven't told me what about Andre's dunks that were so creative besides that first crazy one.  What I saw were recycled dunks from other guys.  I on the other hand have told you that Nate Robinson can only be so creative because of his heigth disadvantage.  He can only do a few dunks where as Andre could pretty much do any dunk in the book if he wanted.  Going between the legs for a slam for Andre is something he can do no problem....Nate has to use hover shoes to even be able to hang in the air long enough to get it between his legs and back up for the dunk.  Andre can jump high enough to where he can come down at a slant towards the rim.  Nate has to be right on the money because he cannot jump and float downwards.

(btw the only reason I am debating this is for the same reason as you.  Pretty much this was more intresting than anything else that went on.  IMO the real game wasn't all that exciting.  WAYYY too many fouls were called and it screwed with the flow of the game.  Who wants to see guys with this talent shoot free throws all night?)

 

[Derek Bodner]

Um...koast, did you actually watch the vid?  He caught it behind the back.  It's clear as day.

If you're going to put down Iguodala's dunks for creativity, I don't see how you can give Nate an out for his lack of creativity.  I think Iguodala was FAR more creative.  That behind the back windmill has never been seen,  Jrich's was far different, I just don't agree.

Iguodala's best dunk (behind the back board) was bigger (and more creative) than Nate's dunk (jumping over someone, which has been done).  Iguodala's 2nd best dunk (behind the back windmill, which I guess we just disagree on) was better and more creative than nate's 2nd best dunk (overtime, which after the throw which I said I don't give points for on timing since it took him 14 tries to get it right) was just an off the backboard half windmill.  Iguodala's 3rd best dunk (overtime) was IMO better than Nate's 3rd best dunk (can anyone actually name Nate's 3rd best dunk?  I've been over what they are already.  A straight alley-oop and a between the legs that took him 8 tries).

You should also take away the attempts from Andre then for his dunks because he wasn't nailing them first try either

Iguodala never missed more than 2x on a dunk, and missed a total of 4 times in the competition.  Nate missed 24 (literally.  13 on the last dunk, 8 on his 2nd dunk, and 3 more times scattered throughout the other 3).

IMO Nate's 2nd and 3rd (and even 1st, to a degree) were so bad he didn't deserve it.  Top that off with Iguodala's best being better than Nate's best, and I don't think Nate was even close to the top dunker there.  IMO he got a sympathy vote because of his height, not because his dunks were the best.

(BTW, 2 of the 4 parts of the skills competition mentioned above are dribbling through cones, and do we not agree that smaller guys get better arc on their shot because of their height and arm length than 7 footers?)

[Derek Bodner]

http://ssbafiles.phillyarena.net/dunks/

(all the dunks).

[Guest]

Db, the ball was not behind his back.  Watch it again.  It was in front of him towards his left side and that is why he had to scoop the ball and pull it behind his back.  His left arm is extended out past the front of his body when he first grabs the ball.  I'd take a screenshot of it paused if Windows did not remove video images when you goto save them.  That is not a creative dunk because its been done before just from a different spot.  If you are not going to give Nate points for doing dunks that little guys just cant do then I am not giving Andre creative points for moving off the baseline to the FT line to finish a dunk we've seen before.

You are downplaying Nate's dunks to the point where you are acting as if they were all bad attempts.  Like I said, you are not bringing into consideration how much of a disadvantage he really was at.  Seeing him alley oop between the legs wouldn't be impressive if the guy wasnt so small....but he is.  Just the fact he is able to do a 360 or between the legs is crazy because he is so small.

[Derek Bodner]

Db, the ball was not behind his back. Watch it again. It was in front of him towards his left side and that is why he had to scoop the ball and pull it behind his back. His left arm is extended out past the front of his body when he first grabs the ball. I'd take a screenshot of it paused if Windows did not remove video images when you goto save them. That is not a creative dunk because its been done before just from a different spot. If you are not going to give Nate points for doing dunks that little guys just cant do then I am not giving Andre creative points for moving off the baseline to the FT line to finish a dunk we've seen before.

I've watched it 50 times.  He jumped, turned to his right.  When he picked up the ball, it was to the left of the center point of his body.  It was behind him the entire time he touched the ball.

Like I said, you are not bringing into consideration how much of a disadvantage he really was at. Seeing him alley oop between the legs wouldn't be impressive if the guy wasnt so small....but he is. Just the fact he is able to do a 360 or between the legs is crazy because he is so small.

And like I said, you don't give extra points for that.  If Kevin Garnett goes out there to compete in the skills competition, you don't give him extra seconds to go through the cones because he's 7 feet tall.  I want to see the best ballhandler/skills guy, not the best 7 foot ballhandler.

Likewise, the dunk contest (to me) is the one who does the best dunks.  Hakim Warrick doesn't get extra points because he's 6'10" and at a disadvantage, and Nate doesn't get extra points because he's 5'9".

Nate is the best sub-6' dunker in the league, no doubt.  But he's not the best dunker in that competition, and that's what I care about.

[Reality]

http://ssbafiles.phillyarena.net/dunks/

(all the dunks).

gracias.

How come MS Windows Media Player plays them 1/2 the time, other 1/2 will come up, but when i press play Ig will only move 1/12 inch?