Ventre -- the Lakers need to trade Kobe . . .

[Guest_Randy]

The fact that an utterance by one Chucky Atkins, followed by a heated denial, can cause a nationwide uproar illustrates just how far the Los Angeles Lakers have fallen on the NBA’s significance-o-meter. Oh, if we could just turn back the clock. This teaches us that whenever we have superstars the likes of Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal and Phil Jackson snarling at each other and jockeying for power, we should cherish it, because it may never pass this way again.

On Sunday, after the Lakers extended a losing skid to eight straight in a desultory effort at home against the Philadelphia 76ers, Atkins was asked what moves he would make in the coming off-season to improve the Lakers. He told the Los Angeles Times: “I ain’t the G.M. of this team. Kobe’s the G.M. of this team. Ask Kobe. You’ve been watching this (stuff) all year. You’ve been watching it and I’ve been playing it.” On Monday, he played better defense than he ever has on the court, angrily denying he said that and blaming the media for twisting his remarks, even though the Los Angeles Daily News quoted him similarly.

We can go on and on with this “he said, he said,” but the gist of Chucky’s snit is that what is going on below the surface with these Lakers is almost as foul as what the fans are witnessing above it. It appears no matter how you look at it, the Lakers are Kobe Bryant’s team, and that isn’t a good thing. To quote the philosopher Micheal Ray Richardson: “The ship be sinkin’.”

That’s why the Lakers may have to re-examine their entire direction and seriously consider trading Kobe.

A rift between Kobe Bryant and Chucky Atkins isn’t exactly like Lennon and McCartney going their separate ways. But it’s just the latest in a series of signs that the club is not responding to Bryant’s leadership.

Lamar Odom has not seemed comfortable playing with Bryant all season. Rudy Tomjanovich lasted half a season as head coach, and although it’s unfair to blame Bryant for his sudden departure, rumors remain that the strain of dealing with the strong-willed superstar had a negative effect on Rudy T’s well-being. Interim coach Frank Hamblen declared after a loss last week in Denver that his players had quit on him.

Then there’s the little matter of the team’s record. Bryant has been getting his shots and then some, but the rest of the Lakers seem aimless. Defensively, they resemble blind men in heavy traffic. Under Bryant’s stewardship the Lakers are now 32-37, in 10th place in the West, 6 games behind the Denver Nuggets for the eighth and final playoff berth.

Oh, and by the way: The Miami Heat has the best record in the NBA under Shaq. And besides Dwyane Wade, the talent level on that team is only middling.
It might seem lunacy to trade a talent like Kobe. After all, the kid can still get it done offensively. He is often spectacular. He can do it all. He can win a game single-handedly. The trouble is, he often tries, and sometimes he loses them single-handedly as well. He might put on an astounding display, draining three or four 3-pointers in a row. But then will come a key possession, when a cocky willingness to slay an opponent by himself should give way to thoughtful management of the clock and the ball, and Bryant will respond by taking a fall-away trey with two foes in his face. He’ll miss, and the game will slip away.
These 2004-05 Lakers have had a taste of what the future holds with Kobe in control, and they don’t seem to like it much. If the franchise insists on building around Kobe, it will have to clean house again, because this entourage has packed it in.

And it won’t be easy to find recruits to serve as Kobe’s caddies. His reputation around the league is in tatters. Other NBA players either didn’t like the fact that Bryant squealed on Shaq to the cops during the infamous interview he gave after the alleged sexual assault, or they don’t like his loner mentality, or they think he’s arrogant and selfish, or they think he’s plain dumb for driving off the most dominant center in the game and the best head coach in the league.
If the Lakers do consider trading Kobe, they’ll have to get value this time. The deal that sent Shaquille O’Neal to Miami did not bring an All-Star in return. Fans and talk-show jockeys have been roasting G.M. Mitch Kupchak and owner Jerry Buss over that ever since.

The Lakers could not trade Bryant without getting someone comparable. So who exactly is comparable? Talent-wise, that’s a tough one.
Kevin Garnett? Maybe the Timberwolves feel they’ve gone as far as they can with him and need a change. Jason Kidd? He’s always looking to move.  How about a package involving a couple of the Chicago Bulls’ young stars, say Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich?

There are myriad possibilities, if the Lakers decide to go that route.
The other course of action is to work on Kobe and ask him to be more unselfish. But whom will he listen to? The only authority figure he ever respected in basketball is Jerry West, and he’s in Memphis. Bryant has been humbled somewhat these past two years, but his attitude as a player hasn’t changed. He still stubbornly demands most of the shots, and he always will. His sense of the game is myopic.

Most importantly, he isn’t the leader he professes to be. That’s where the Michael Jordan comparisons end. They resemble each other. Kobe’s game is spectacular, like Michael’s was. But Michael commanded respect, and his teammates followed his lead. With Kobe, it will always be a struggle. He can’t lecture teammates about how to play defense because his teammates will tune him out. He isn’t Michael Jordan.

If the Lakers continue to place their entire future in the hands of Kobe Bryant, they won’t be a championship contender for the next 10 years.
He isn’t going to change. So they’ll have to.

Okay, nobody will ever say that Kobe isn't selfish -- is he any more selfish than Shaq, PJ or Jordan (whom Ventre seems to elevate)?  No, not at all.  Who thought the Lakers would do well this year?  I thought the Lakers had a chance at the playoffs -- and they were playing pretty well until Kobe went down -- Odom soon followed after Kobe came back.  Kobe and Odom have been struggling to play together -- is all of that Kobe's fault?  No!  The Lakers are VERY weak in the frontcourt -- Brian Cook thinks he's a shooting guard, Medvendenko can play starters minutes and get less rebounds than Diane Cannon sitting courtside, Brian Grant has a willing spirit but a body that won't respond and Chris Mihm shows flashes of a real game (about 1 in every 10 games to be precise).  The Lakers get outrebounded, I think they lead the league in TO's (and not ALL of that is Kobe's fault) and they don't have anyone who can relieve some of the defensive pressure against Kobe.  Odom is WAY too soft to be the #2 scorer -- he reminds me a great deal of Rashard Lewis until this season -- before this season, Lewis simply crumbled under the pressure of being the #2 guy -- this year he has made the leap.  Odom HASN'T made that leap yet -- and there are too many times he needs to take the ball hard to the rim and he settles for an outside jumper or passes the ball.  That is EXACTLY what opposing teams want to see -- Odom refusing to use his quickness on the offensive end -- esp. since MOST teams in the league are going to KILL Odom on the other end of the court.  Odom has ZERO shot at even slowing down players like TD, Brand, Randolph, KG, etc.  He has to defeat them at the other end of the court -- and he isn't doing that.  

On the other hand, when the Lakers were playing great ball, Kobe was averaging 6 or 7 assists -- now his assists are in the 2 or 3 range -- that just ISN'T going to cut it.  Kobe has to pass the ball more and the rest of the team needs to step up their game offensively.  They need to use their athleticism and move more without the ball -- instead of just standing around when Kobe has the ball.

I do believe Kobe is part of the problem -- but he's just part of the problem, along with Odom, the lack of defense, the lack of interior offense, Odom's lack of aggressiveness with the basketball and the fact that the Lakers can't seem to take care of the ball.  IMO, there is PLENTY of blame to go around.

The Lakers are rebuilding!  I don't think there are too many better players in the league to build around than Kobe Bryant.  The TWolves aren't going to trade KG unless they have too and the Lakers aren't going to trade Kobe for Hinrich and Gordan!  

 

[westkoast]

When you have a short amount of space to write something you want people to talk about, which is Ventre's style, youve got to keep it simple.  The Laker problems this year could fill up the whole first 10 pages of the LA Times.  In order to stay with what he was given the blame needs to be placed soley on Kobe's shoulders.......one because its easy, keeps the article short and two because Ventre after long removing his lips from the Lakers butts has now gone to shock-writing about the NBA and its players.  Now that he cant spend every article kissing the Lakers butts he has resorted to finding other things to talk about.   People who have read his previous articles this year will agree.

Frank Hamblin also did not saying anything along the lines of 'Rudy left because Kobe is hard to speak with'  Rudy said the exact opposite of what Ventre is saying.

Laker defense?  Of course its Kobe's fault.  He is trying to get this team to play tougher defense and they dont want to listen to him :laugh:

Odom being passive?  Kobe's fault.......even tho Odom came into the league that way, its Kobe's fault.

Once again everyone else on Miami takes the backseat to Shaq.  Wade got a lil bit of props but the rest of the Heat are average?  I thought theyve been playing excellent TEAM BALL.  Shaq's stats are not even dominanting stats....yet Miami is on a tear with an average team?

And if anyone thinks this is a serious assestment of the Lakers, a good suggestion, and Ventre isnt doing this as a shock-writer.....'Trade Kobe for Kirk Heinrich and Ben Gordon'   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:

[JoMal]

I posted this on the Laker forum on FanHome and am just too lazy to alter it any for inclusion here, but this topic has gotten quite a bit of coverage over there already:



Hi Laker fans -

While Atkins saying anything should really carry no weight whatsoever, the media taking it to its utmost level was probably a given.

The only issue in LA regarding the Lakers is Kobe; what Kobe is doing on the court; what he does off the court; what he is saying to the media (believe me, the less he says, the better for all concerned); and of course what any of his teammates or opponents have to say about him. All make front page sporting news.

If you were hoping that Kobe Bryant is the one untradable commodity the Lakers possess, have no fear, no one else in the League would touch him with anything close to comparable talent. Someone earlier in this thread suggested that Atkins is a cancer for saying what he did. What does that make Kobe then?

There have been way, way too many innuendoes and outright comments about Bryant to not assume there is some truth to the rumors that keep being denied later on. Kobe is bad news, he is bad for the NBA and certainly bad for the Laker franchise. He is not going away either and he needs to get a divorce from LA ASAP for the good of the future of your team. He is not just an albatross to attracting free agents, he is a black hole for any teammates unfortunate enough to share his locker room - not the Laker locker room, KOBE'S locker room.

As long as you are hooked onto the shorts of this loser, you are going to have nothing but Atkins' comments, or Jackson's comments, or Shaq comments, or you-name-the-source here comments about how impossible it is to share breathing space, let alone basketball court space, with the Bryant ego. There just is not enough room in LA for anyone else to belong.

I know, I understand what it means to many of you. Bryant is your guy; the guy the team has sworn to build a contender around. Unfortunately, the RIGHT guy to build around now plays in Miami. Too late for that now.

We in Sacramento would defend Vlade Divac, Doug Christie, and Chris Webber to the death - when they were Kings. Now, it is easy to see that we were never going to be serious contenders with them, but while they were with us, we held out that hope. It took a brave GM to recognize it was over and actually do the shocking trades or releases. In the long run, there really was nothing else Petrie should have done.

That is what is needed with the Lakers. Turn him loose, get what you can for him, and take the memories of your three most recent championships to heart. But give up on Kobe. It is looking pathetic and defending him looks plain sad now. If a coach like Phil Jackson can't reach him, you know, YOU KNOW!!!! that something is amiss with that young man that no hope of change will ever fulfill.

[rickortreat]

What a moronic statement.  Kobe is the only player who can play on the Lakers.  With Shaq there, they'd be in the playoffs and have a shot at the title.

There's no-one out there you could trade him for and get equal value.  LeBron?  Cavs wouldn't do the deal.  Iverson?  A step backwards, becasue Kobe is a better defender.  Garnett?  Doubt McHale would do it.  Nowitzsky? Maybe the Mavs, but they'll trade anybody.

Lakers are rebuilding, how long that takes depends on who they trade for and who they draft.  Kobe can play with anybody, and the better his teamates, the better he is.

This year has been a tough experince for Kobe, and probably (hopefully) has taught him some humility.  But you trade Kobe and LA goes down the abyss of being a team no-one has any reason to watch, sort of like the Clippers.  

[Guest_Randy]

First, a coach like Phil Jackson couldn't reach Kobe?  PLEASE!!!  Who exactly HAS PJ reached?  The guy is a GREAT motivator but he is also one of the greatest manipulators of the game -- let's not forget that!  PJ gets WAYYY too much credit for being the "coach" in Chicago as far as leadership -- MJ was the leader of that team -- plain and simple.  If you didn't perform, it wasn't PJ in your face -- it was MJ.  MJ DID allow PJ to do what he did best -- mesh role players into a system that utilized their strengths and minimized their weaknesses.  

PJ was EXACTLY what Shaq needed -- however, he failed with Kobe -- and I really don't think he tried that hard.  How did PJ try and reach Kobe?  By going to the press and making statements.  PJ was FAR more concerned with his own image than he was reaching Kobe -- and he wasn't nearly concerned enough and/or motivated to resolve the problems between Shaq and Kobe.  Also, look at how PJ FAILED to motivate Shaq in the last two seasons in LA.  Where was PJ when Shaq continued to come into camp out-of-shape and in poor health?  Unconcerned from the looks of it!

I don't think there is much "defending" Kobe -- but there is PLENTY of fault to go around when it comes to Kobe, PJ and Shaq because ALL of them are to blame for what happened in LA (because ALL of them were more concerned with themselves and their "image" to make things work).  

As for building around Shaq -- I REALLY wish people would get a CLUE!!!  Was Shaq in shape last year?  NO!!!!   Does ANYONE really believe Shaq would have been in better shape than he was last year if LA gave him a FAT contract at the end of last season?  Of course not!  He would have come into training camp in WORSE shape than he was last year -- why?  Because he had done so for the last 3 years!  The ONLY reason Shaq is in shape THIS year is because he needs to prove that he can do it WITHOUT Kobe!

Also, the ONLY way the Lakers were going to win another title was by having some money to put some talented veterans around Shaq and Kobe -- with Shaq getting the max extention to add to Kobe's max extension (along with STUPID contracts given to George and Medvendenko) there would be only enough money to give out minimum contracts -- that ISN'T going to entice veterans to come to LA these days -- esp. after seeing what it netted Malone and GP.  Fox was old, Fish was old (and gone), the Lakers didn't have a PG and they didn't have anyone to play PF.  When you add all that up, it DOESN'T make sense to try and ruin your future to keep Shaq in LA.  LA WASN'T going to win another title -- and I think it's kind of humorous that you applaud Petrie, as a GM, for recognizing that CWebb and company wasn't going to do it but lambast Kupchak for recognizing the SAME thing for LA (actually, I think it was Buss who really recognized it rather than Mitch).

One thing that I DO agree with you about -- you DON'T get comparable talent by trading away a superstar!  Kobe IS a top player -- he just doesn't have anyone to play with right now.  We have seen this with ALL superstars (including Shaq), you CAN'T get enough talent in return for a Superstar -- it's the reason why Philly still has AI.  You make the best deal that you can.  But I REALLY think it's a bit early to give up on Kobe -- he doesn't have the talent around him to really make a fair assessment of what he can do with a team built around him.

I've been a Laker fan in worse days than these -- EVERY team will go through a rebuilding phase.  The Lakers have been one of the best at rebuilding through the decades -- today is a new era (given salary cap and no longer having Jerry West) so I think we should wait more than ONE season to determine whether Kobe "has it" or not!

[westkoast]

Here are some REAL issues with the Lakers:

Kobe needs to be a bit more efficent on the offensive end.  He is slowly doing a better job but for most of the season he could have had a better shot selection.  Part of that happens when you get the ball with 2 seconds on the clock and have a jack up a shot.  No excuse tho.  Second, turnovers have really killed the Lakers all year and he is (or was) leading the league in turnovers at his position.  Also he should attack the basket more.  Dont get me wrong, he attacks but sometimes he gets jumper happy.  Sweet jumper Kobe but an even more sweet first step.  He can take anyone off the dribble.

This is what irks me.  The number one problem that NO ONE has talked about.  The Lakers switching to the triangle offense mid-season.  This is easily the biggest problem with the Lakers the second half of the season but so-called basketball writers have not covered this at all.  Bad shots are comming because of players being out of position.  Bad passes are comming because the triangle isnt being ran right and the spacing is bad.  Everyone not being on the same page in the triangle is making for some real inconsistant offensive games.  Anyone watching the Lakers would see how the whole team aside from Kobe is struggling with the triangle.  The Lakers gave up like 27 and 20+ back to back nights int he turnover department.  Half of those are caused by running the triangle wrong.  Id say this is the #1 problem with their inconsitancy...maybe only 2 to team defense.

Team defense....if you even want to call it that.  Non-existant.  Ive yet to see more than 5-6 games this season where they played good defense for the full 48 minutes.   Lack of communication and horrible transition defense is whats doing them in, in that department.  Team that up with guys jacking up long jumpers which result in long rebounds......you guys know the rest.

No solid second scorer.  Kobe gets his points every single night but doesnt always get the extra backup firepower.  Odom was suppose to be that but has and wont step up.  

Bench...it sucks.  PERIOD!  We have Slava, George, Tiere Brown, Vlade, and Grant on our bench.  


Oh wait....did I take up too much space?  The Laker problems are ALL Kobe's fault.

[JoMal]

Randy, I would NEVER compare Petrie to Kupchek at any time. Petrie is simply way better at all elements of the GM business and for you to suggest Mitch would recognize anything equally to Geoff is a joke. The owner, the GM - whoever - thought that the solution to rebuilding in LA for the Lakers was to remove Phil Jackson and Shaq and keep Kobe tells you what idiots they are.

But otherwise, thank you for so thoroughly making my point like no other could. Now that Shaq and Jackson are gone and you only have Kobe, suddenly the onus for the future (anticipated) failure of the team could be placed on their heads while the last, remaining problem child still with the Lakers continuous to get a free ride on just about all his faults. Typical, to say the least. While he is a Laker, he is going to be blameless.

Fat or not, out-of-shape or not, it was Shaq more then any other reason that you can claim three championships, under Jackson. No matter who else you put on the court with Kobe, he is never, and I mean NEVER, EVER going to treat the Laker faithful to another ring regardless of his supporting staff. While players like MJ, Bird, and Magic all had issues to deal with at various times, none had the lack of social amenities Kobe has exhibited since he came into the League. He won't listen to anyone, he won't take advice from anyone, Jackson gave up trying to tell him anything, and Shaq left rather then try something with him again.

The Laker franchise is facing Kobe hell. You want to know why Petrie should get his own wing in the Hall of Fame? Because no one....NO ONE.... who played in the NBA back in the late nineties wanted to come play in Sacramento. The team was just a collection of players with barely enough game to stay in the NBA. Petrie changed all that and made the Kings one of the most popular destinations. Now players hate to leave. Absolutely hate it.

Kupchek works in LA, for God's sake. Any NBA player wanting a bigger stage would swope into his office unsolicited begging for a contract. They didn't want the Clippers because of ownership, but the Lakers, with all that history and being in LA, it was a snap.

Kobe singlehandedly has changed all of that. Players have issues all the time, but come on!!!! This kid is a train wreck and you just can't comprehend how distasteful he has become as a teammate. You can't rebuild around him because his foundation is crumbling. How many times are the Lakers going to hold a press conference for the single purpose of having players deny there is any trouble in the Laker locker room? How many times are "retractions" going to be made by players who claim the media misconstrued their meaning from direct quotes?

Congradulations on being blessed with the worst posible outcome from your glory years - the one guy who had to go you get to keep forever, and weeping is going to be a big part of your future until Kobe learns to shut up and become a "real" teammate (yeah, right!), or Kubchek and Buss get rid of him.

[WayOutWest]

JoMal,

While I wont try to defend Kobe on his current situation, you can't rewrite history and expect it to fly on this board.

Jackson wanted too much money to come back and coach.  The Lakers have never paid top dollar for a coach, Jackson was the first exception.  The Lakers prefer to develop talent rather than buy it when it comes to coaching (i.e. Riley and Dunleavy).  Jacksons asking price was just too high for Jerry Buss.

Shaq left because he was promised a fat contract if he helped recruit but the contract never came.  Shaq would NEVER EVER get back into shape as a Laker, so there were no rings for the Lakers with Shaq.  Shaq is still my favorite player in the league despite going to Miami but there is no way he was going to carry the Lakers to another title after comming into camp fatter and fatter each and EVERY year since the first title in 2000.  There was no future with Shaq as a Laker because unlike other franchises, with Boston being the ONLY exception, the only measure of success acceptable for the Lakers is a world chapionship.  No division titles or conference titles hang from the Laker rafters.  The Laker organization doesn't take pride in who will or won't play in LA or what there feelings are when they leave, they take pride in CHAMPIONSHIPS, something fans of teams like the Kings and Clippers    can't comprehend.  Also unlike ALL other franchised the Lakers are bigger than any name that has ever played for them.  There was life and championships after Mikam, after Chamberlin, after West, after Kareem, after Magic and there will be life and championships after Shaq and Kobe.  I'm not worried on what the Laker future holds becuase it's not a one trick pony franchise ala all others.

I wasn't happy with Kobe with Shaq, I'm not happy with him without Shaq.  Kobe's got alot of growing up to do before he can lead a team to a title but there are worse players to hang you hopes on for the future or worse players to define franchise (i.e. Webber, Iverson, Pierce, Carter).

I survived Ceballos, Rodman and Cambell, I will survive this latest bump in the Laker road.

[westkoast]

I agree with WoW here ...in the age of America where everything has to be simple and short all the blame falls on Kobe.  Its easier on the ears, easy to fit in the titles, easy to scroll on a ticker, easier on the loads of crack babies who are of age now :lol:  etc etc.  Kobe is not the one and only reason all this happend.  He has a say, as does any other big name star, but at the end of the day there was plenty of factors on top of it.    Anyone who thinks if Shaq stayed in LA that he'd be playing the way he is with Miami is either 1) on crack or 2) on crack.  

People have hated Kobe because hes arrogant and a damn good ball player who torches their favorite team everytime they meet up.....now they can disguise their hate for him by placing all the blame on his shoulders.  

Again...why has no one talked about the Lakers trying to learn the triangle on the fly in the middle of the season?  

[Guest_Randy]

Petrie is simply way better at all elements of the GM business and for you to suggest Mitch would recognize anything equally to Geoff is a joke.

Umm, JoMal, what's funny is that you are looking at the people rather than the principle.  The principle of your comments for Petrie is this:  (being such a great GM), Petrie realized that the Kings were never going to win a title with it's present personell and begin to make trades to rebuild (the gist of your post).  However, I state that is EXACTLY why Shaq was moved -- the Lakers were NEVER going to win another title with Shaq -- he simply wasn't motivated to get into the kind of shape that winning another title would cost.  He's motivated now!  So the Lakers moved Shaq to rebuild for the future.  Hmm, sounds like the SAME principle to me -- doesn't it to you?
And IF you are rebuilding, PJ ISN'T the coach you want (and he wouldn't want to coach during a rebuild either) -- that too should be easy even for you to figure out!

Fat or not, out-of-shape or not, it was Shaq more then any other reason that you can claim three championships, under Jackson. No matter who else you put on the court with Kobe, he is never, and I mean NEVER, EVER going to treat the Laker faithful to another ring regardless of his supporting staff. While players like MJ, Bird, and Magic all had issues to deal with at various times, none had the lack of social amenities Kobe has exhibited since he came into the League. He won't listen to anyone, he won't take advice from anyone, Jackson gave up trying to tell him anything, and Shaq left rather then try something with him again.

Who said that Shaq wasn't a HUGE part of the reason LA won three championships?  Not me!  However, Shaq would have NEVER been able to do it without Kobe -- if you don't believe it, go check out that it was Kobe who beat the Spurs while they were doubling on Shaq -- that was only possible because of the fact that Kobe is one of the top players in the league -- it would have taken a top caliber player to do what Kobe did (and frankly Kobe did it better than any other backcourt player in the league).  

But otherwise, thank you for so thoroughly making my point like no other could. Now that Shaq and Jackson are gone and you only have Kobe, suddenly the onus for the future (anticipated) failure of the team could be placed on their heads while the last, remaining problem child still with the Lakers continuous to get a free ride on just about all his faults. Typical, to say the least. While he is a Laker, he is going to be blameless.

Umm, who said Kobe was blameless.  If you actually READ what I said, I already mentioned the blame that I have assessed to Kobe -- and he definately deserves a share of it.  However, as I also said, Kobe is no more to blame for the whole situation than Shaq and PJ (who you seem to release from blame when they are no longer connected with LA -- hmm, does that prove my point?).  ALL three have acted like children -- and all three were wrong.  But you seem to only want to point wrong when it benefits your case, not based on actual facts (see Kings organization lies to Vlade and Peja about the fact that they couldn't "afford" him).  I have already assessed a LOT of blame on Kobe -- however, you seem to think that since he is the one still in purple and gold, he should hold the whole bag.  While he certainly is the one who has to deal most with the results of these decisions -- he definately doesn't deserve the whole "bag" of blame.  It should be equally divided.  
Case in point, during the NBA Finals, some want to point out Kobe's (funny that Kobe is the only one with the ball -- GP never had it, huh?) lack of passing inside to Shaq -- why isn't anyone pointing out the fact that Shaq was SOOO out of shape that Ben Wallace was able to come all the way around Shaq (no easy process itself) and steal the inbounds pass?  Oh, because that doesn't put all the blame on Kobe, huh?

Kupchek works in LA, for God's sake. Any NBA player wanting a bigger stage would swope into his office unsolicited begging for a contract. They didn't want the Clippers because of ownership, but the Lakers, with all that history and being in LA, it was a snap.

Umm, IF your assumption was correct, then why aren't players lining up to play in NY?  Chicago?  Those are the 2 other "big" stages!  The fact is that players DON'T give up money these days to play ANYWHERE!  We have only seen a COUPLE of players do that since the luxury tax -- one to the Kings and two to the Lakers.  Neither resulted into anything positive and it's unlikely to happen again in the near future.  Players can talk about wanting to go to a "big market" but it all comes down to money these days -- it isn't about loyalty or where they like to play!

The bottom line is that we haven't had a long enough period to make the kind of assessments that you want to make.  I don't think we will see any promise out of LA until some of these huge contracts roll off our payroll in 2007 -- THEN we will begin to assess Kobe's abilities in leadership, etc.  

As for players who "love" to play in SacTown -- let's also let the "new" history tell that for sure as well.  The Kings had INCREDIBLE chemistry, a rocking arena (due to fans) and owners who were willing to pay whatever it costs to gain a championship.  However, ALL that has changed -- the Kings no longer have that kind of chemistry, the building no longer rocks because of it's fans and the Maloofs have closed their wallet.  In fact, it remains to be seen if the Kings will even STAY in their "beloved" city!

Kobe deserves a chance to show what he can do -- did you judge Webber on his first year in SacTown?   :rofl: -- I didn't think so!

 

[JoMal]

I agree with WoW here ...in the age of America where everything has to be simple and short all the blame falls on Kobe.  Its easier on the ears, easy to fit in the titles, easy to scroll on a ticker, easier on the loads of crack babies who are of age now :lol:  etc etc.  Kobe is not the one and only reason all this happend.  He has a say, as does any other big name star, but at the end of the day there was plenty of factors on top of it.    Anyone who thinks if Shaq stayed in LA that he'd be playing the way he is with Miami is either 1) on crack or 2) on crack.  

People have hated Kobe because hes arrogant and a damn good ball player who torches their favorite team everytime they meet up.....now they can disguise their hate for him by placing all the blame on his shoulders.  

Again...why has no one talked about the Lakers trying to learn the triangle on the fly in the middle of the season?

westkoast -

You actually don't get it do you? You ask,  "...why has no one talked about the Lakers trying to learn the triangle on the fly in the middle of the season?"

Because Kobe-issues apparently dominate all media sound bites coming out of LA. What the hell interest is left for such mundane topics as actually learning to play basketball when you have "Kobe-issues" to talk about instead?

We in "America", as opposed to just being in LA, can see much clearer then you would want us to, apparently. For one, crack isn't needed to see how the rest of the world actually operates.

Like making excuses for why Jackson and Shaq left that do not include any reference to the additional reason that Buss backed Kobe against the other two. Lost that item in your post there, WOW.

That Shaq felt cheated by Buss because he was only making 27 million a year, which is about 10 million more then any other player in the NBA, makes oh... so much more sense, when you think about it. I mean, he has a family to feed, right? How could he possibly accept less then, what, 30 million? Maybe, just maybe, all that media hoopla of Shaq shouting down Buss in the pre-season and all was just his way of making it palatable for the team to move him when Shaq was told he would be Kobe's teammate, and not the other way around.

I am not all that trustful of how the media played out all of this in the first place. But there were just too many sources alluding to the main falling out resulting from a rift between Jackson and Buss over Kobe, and between Shaq and Kobe's leadership roles on the Lakers. All that other "media" hype that favored a nicey-nice split sounded too pat, too trite, for what came later.

You are right, WOW, you can't rewrite history and expect it to fly on this board. You can not allude to "other" factors playing a bigger role in the departures of Shaq and Jackson and not include they both felt their time in LA was being unduly affected by dealing with Kobe Bryant, since Buss backed him over them.  It just made those other reasons easier to feed the media and fans instead of letting the Kobe factor play into it.

Since NBA players, on the whole, are professionals, they are all going to try to make any situation work. So....could we politely ask that the Kobe-issues quit coming up where his teammates keep alluding to their distastes for being on a team with Kobe? That would be a nice start.

Hearing how difficult the learning curve of the triangle has been would be sooo welcome to the rest of "America" that hasn't benefitted by being part of the LA hotbed of intrique.

[westkoast]

westkoast -

You actually don't get it do you? You ask,  "...why has no one talked about the Lakers trying to learn the triangle on the fly in the middle of the season?"

Because Kobe-issues apparently dominate all media sound bites coming out of LA. What the hell interest is left for such mundane topics as actually learning to play basketball when you have "Kobe-issues" to talk about instead?
 

How silly of me to expect basketball sportscasters, writers, and fans (outside of this board) to understand Laker problems outside of Kobe Bryant.  Im not sure who I think I am sometimes.  The triangle really is boring to talk about, certainly alot harder to explain than just placing all the blame on Kobe.

If Phil hated Kobe so much why did he bother to sit down and hear an offer from the Lakers for next season?  Well maybe he was going to get "cut off" from his source of zen power by a certain someone who is apart and has ties to the organization.  We all knew of these problems BEFORE this whole rift and Kobe snitching on Shaq.  So it wasnt a suprise to us that Shaq was pissed about his contract and that Jackson wanted more money to stay or was gonna get that last ring and leave.

[JoMal]

westkoast -

You actually don't get it do you? You ask,  "...why has no one talked about the Lakers trying to learn the triangle on the fly in the middle of the season?"

Because Kobe-issues apparently dominate all media sound bites coming out of LA. What the hell interest is left for such mundane topics as actually learning to play basketball when you have "Kobe-issues" to talk about instead?
 

How silly of me to expect basketball sportscasters, writers, and fans (outside of this board) to understand Laker problems outside of Kobe Bryant.  Im not sure who I think I am sometimes.  The triangle really is boring to talk about, certainly alot harder to explain than just placing all the blame on Kobe.

If Phil hated Kobe so much why did he bother to sit down and hear an offer from the Lakers for next season?  Well maybe he was going to get "cut off" from his source of zen power by a certain someone who is apart and has ties to the organization.  We all knew of these problems BEFORE this whole rift and Kobe snitching on Shaq.  So it wasnt a suprise to us that Shaq was pissed about his contract and that Jackson wanted more money to stay or was gonna get that last ring and leave.

Both Jackson and Shaq put down ultimatums for staying with the Lakers. It seems very clear now that not staying was a preference, so those ultimatums served their purposes.

And besides the media hordes feeding this crap to us unsuspecting public sponges-Bobs waiting to absorb every little drop of moisture about what Jackson may or may not decide to do, I can't see that Phil's presence in LA recently had anything more to do then to have a nice lunch with his girlfriend.

[JoMal]

Randy -

LA doesn't win anything without Shaq on those teams - It also can be argued that LA doesn't win without Jackson taking control and managing the personalities (to some degree) to attain that common goal. They had failed up to the time he bacame the Laker coach, after all.

But to suggest that Kobe was anything more then a handy alternative to Shaq when he was unable to free himself up? You are going to have to do a lot more to convince me that you could have plugged in at least twenty or thirty other players from anywhere in the League and not been just as successful.
 
Shaq looks like he as a partner right now in Miami who could help him win another championship ring. Because other then Wade, there is nothing at all on the Heat that screams out CHAMPIONS.

You want to lay claim that Kobe was as much responsible as Shaq and Jackson for those championships, fine. But please, don't try to sell that nag to this glue factory. We saw those same games, and let me tell you how it was. Shaq completely changed the way the Kings ran their offense. Not Kobe..not even Jackson could accomplish that to any degree. But Shaq did. He changed everything.

Can you even begin to comprehend yet how vulnerable the Lakers appeared as soon as he left the team? Kobe is a great player, but no team in the League redesigns their own game plan to compensate for him like they do Shaq.

And Shaq was unhappy in LA playing next to Kobe. But none of that should be Kobe's fault, right Randy, at least not him alone. Shaq had something to do with it, him being out of shape and fat. Three championship rings thanks to his fat ass hogging the middle sure makes us cynical about how it was, huh, Randy.

And you are telling me that the Lakers did not want to rebuild around Shaq but preferred Kobe??   :rofl:  :rofl:  

 :drunk:  :drunk:

[westkoast]

westkoast -

You actually don't get it do you? You ask,  "...why has no one talked about the Lakers trying to learn the triangle on the fly in the middle of the season?"

Because Kobe-issues apparently dominate all media sound bites coming out of LA. What the hell interest is left for such mundane topics as actually learning to play basketball when you have "Kobe-issues" to talk about instead?
 

How silly of me to expect basketball sportscasters, writers, and fans (outside of this board) to understand Laker problems outside of Kobe Bryant.  Im not sure who I think I am sometimes.  The triangle really is boring to talk about, certainly alot harder to explain than just placing all the blame on Kobe.

If Phil hated Kobe so much why did he bother to sit down and hear an offer from the Lakers for next season?  Well maybe he was going to get "cut off" from his source of zen power by a certain someone who is apart and has ties to the organization.  We all knew of these problems BEFORE this whole rift and Kobe snitching on Shaq.  So it wasnt a suprise to us that Shaq was pissed about his contract and that Jackson wanted more money to stay or was gonna get that last ring and leave.

Both Jackson and Shaq put down ultimatums for staying with the Lakers. It seems very clear now that not staying was a preference, so those ultimatums served their purposes.

And besides the media hordes feeding this crap to us unsuspecting public sponges-Bobs waiting to absorb every little drop of moisture about what Jackson may or may not decide to do, I can't see that Phil's presence in LA recently had anything more to do then to have a nice lunch with his girlfriend.

Shaq never said 'Deal Kobe or I wont stay' he said 'Pay me what I want'

JoMaL, your bias against Kobe is shinning real bright right now.  Shaq had nothing to do with the problems between them in LA?  :lol:  I hope you are being sarcastic.  They BOTH had a hand in it due to their egos.  

If you could put any 20-30 players with Shaq at the two guard then how come he didnt win the first few seasons with LA and how come he didnt win in Orlando at all?  Miami is doing well because Wade, just like Kobe, makes the load on Shaq a heck of alot less.  They both dominate the perimeter.  There is not 20-30 players in this league that can dominate the backcourt like that.  There is like 4.

Who had the heroic overtime against the Pacers in the finals when Shaq was on the bench that sealed the deal?  Who torched Minny last year to swing the momentum is the Lakers favor?  Who made the play that sealed the deal for Portland that first year?   Who consistantly torched YOUR Kings and the Spurs on the road during the three-peat?  Kobe HANDLED teams on the road and Shaq dominated at home.  Surely your memory is not that shot JoMaL.  It wasnt that long ago when the Lakers swept the Kings and Kobe had back to back games where he just destroyed the Kings.  To say ANY 2-guard could team up with Shaq and win 3 championships is a joke.

Phil met with Jerry Buss, I dont think Jerry is the Buss PJ is dating.

Why would the Lakers build for the future around a player who is only in the league for a few more years???  That doesnt make much sense JoMaL.