Ventre -- the Lakers need to trade Kobe . . .

[rickortreat]

Hasn't this issue been kicked to death already?  The Lakers were a great team once Phil got Kobe and Shaq to work together.  Both of them are immature and too selfish to have figured it out on their own.  They needed Phil.  And, when Phil saw that the thing was falling apart, he bailed on the team.

The Lakers are yesterdays news.  And, even die-hard Lakers fans know it will likely be a long while before the Lakers get back to playing Championship basketball.

Shaq was clearly the key to the Lakers success.  I doubt they would have won three rings with any other center instead.  Would Duncan and Kobe be a lock to win against Shaq and Wade?  I'd say that Shaq's team would win hands down.

Iverson could have won three rings with Shaq.  So could T-Mac, and probably one or two others.  

Fatso showed that his fragile ego is what drives him.  Miami was his vehicle to prove his point.  No Phil no Kobme.  Just Superman.  Sure, Wade is there, but Shaq never said he could do it on his own.  Just that he didn't need Kobe or the bright lights of LA.

[JoMal]

Shaq never said 'Deal Kobe or I wont stay' he said 'Pay me what I want'

And that makes Shaq just a bit better at manipulation then we all thought. Why would he publically say he had to get away from Kobe? He has his own public image to consider and they all would support his salary position much more readily then his falling out with Kobe. Also, Laker management had made it clear that Kobe was preferred over Shaq by then anyway.

JoMaL, your bias against Kobe is shinning real bright right now.  Shaq had nothing to do with the problems between them in LA?  :lol:  I hope you are being sarcastic.  They BOTH had a hand in it due to their egos.

So is your favoritism towards him. Which one of us would you say is the one who has really been viewing Bryant through rose colored glasses?

While Kobe has a good game, I have never thought much of his attitude about getting advice, whether it has come from a nonentity like Phil Jackson about Bryant being more of a team player, or listening to advisors regarding his public statements about his trial in Colorado.  

Did Shaq contribute to the problems regarding Kobe? Well, to use your own line of logic against you, how come O'Neal didnt have comflicts the first few seasons with anyone in Orlando? How come no one is having any conflicts with him in Miami? And to stretch this a bit further, how did Karl Malone, Chucky Atkins, Lamar Odom, Gary Payton, Derek Fisher, etal get along with Kobe? Anyone listed here join Shaq as publically stating that they were, shall we say, "disgruntled" with Kobe, for any reason?

Now, please name those players other then Kobe who have had a public feud with Shaq.

If you could put any 20-30 players with Shaq at the two guard then how come he didnt win the first few seasons with LA and how come he didnt win in Orlando at all?  Miami is doing well because Wade, just like Kobe, makes the load on Shaq a heck of alot less.  They both dominate the perimeter.  There is not 20-30 players in this league that can dominate the backcourt like that.  There is like 4.

Didn't Shaq get to the championship round while in Orlando with Penny Hardaway? They didn't win, but then, how many years did Shaq and Bryant play together in LA before they won - after Phil Jackson showed up and told Shaq, at least, how to do it. He told Kobe too, but Kobe probably blew him off, as always. Which just goes and makes my point all over again. Jaskson + Shaq + (Name support player of your choice here) = championship.  

Now, in Miami, you have Shaq + Wade + (have you SEEN who else is playing on the Heat lately?   YEEEECCHHH!!!!) may get another Shaq team to the championship round. Here is a little hint about that. They won't be playing the Lakers led by Kobe Bryant.  Not this year, not next year, not before Shaq has put his size 23's up on a cushion after ten years of retirement.

Who had the heroic overtime against the Pacers in the finals when Shaq was on the bench that sealed the deal?  Who torched Minny last year to swing the momentum is the Lakers favor?  Who made the play that sealed the deal for Portland that first year?   Who consistantly torched YOUR Kings and the Spurs on the road during the three-peat?  Kobe HANDLED teams on the road and Shaq dominated at home.  Surely your memory is not that shot JoMaL.  It wasnt that long ago when the Lakers swept the Kings and Kobe had back to back games where he just destroyed the Kings.  To say ANY 2-guard could team up with Shaq and win 3 championships is a joke.

Shaq opened up opportunities for Kobe, not the other way around. Teams prepared for O'Neal, not for Kobe. Team's offenses got stymied because of Shaq, not because of Bryant. If Kobe was able to produce so effectively in those games you mentioned, give the real reason.

At times, Allan Iverson has singlehandedly won games, as have Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady, Chris Webber, Mike Bibby, Ray Allen, Stephon Marbury, Jason Kidd, and I don't think I need to list the 20 or 30 other players who have accomplished the feat just like Kobe has. They all have also failed in crunch time at various rates, none quite as often as Kobe, but that is fodder for another thread.

But none of those others have benefitted as much as Bryant has by by having opposing teams constantly keeping one eye glued to Shaquille O'Neal lurking in the paint. Other big men have talent and poise and are dangerous, but O'Neal dominates like no other. If the ball gets in to him, they know they have no chance at all. Kobe exploited that on occasion. I should hope so. More importantly, it affected how Kobe would be guarded. It made Kobe believe it was all him doing it, and Shaq was just in the way, somehow. Now, he is going to learn the truth. See how he does in those tight situations without having an O'Neal on your team.

Phil met with Jerry Buss, I dont think Jerry is the Buss PJ is dating.

Courtesy call, nothing more. Prorbably to tell Buss that he wanted to squelch any rumor Buss might have heard that Jackson was interested in coaching the Lakers again.

Why would the Lakers build for the future around a player who is only in the league for a few more years???  That doesnt make much sense JoMaL.

A few more years of possible championships versus a lot more years of Kobe.

Lakers with Shaq still on the team =  :bounce:

Lakers with Kobe for the next decade =  :cry:  

I am real glad you won't mind, because the rest of us sure are glad to see Shaq in Miami!!!

[WayOutWest]

You are going to have to do a lot more to convince me that you could have plugged in at least twenty or thirty other players from anywhere in the League and not been just as successful.
 

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

You must have eaten a retard sandwich for lunch today JoMal, either that or you're just a little bored.

Kobe, T-Mac, Ray Allen & Allen Iverson.

Please name the other 16 to 26 players.

If you're talking throughout his entire career then you've got Penny...oops....Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller.  And that's a Shaq that's in decent shape, the fatso from last year couldn't win it without Jordan.

 

[JoMal]

You are going to have to do a lot more to convince me that you could have plugged in at least twenty or thirty other players from anywhere in the League and not been just as successful.
 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

You must have eaten a retard sandwich for lunch today JoMal, either that or you're just a little bored.



Please name the other 16 to 26 players.

If you're talking throughout his entire career then you've got Penny...oops....Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller.  And that's a Shaq that's in decent shape, the fatso from last year couldn't win it without Jordan.

Oh, please!!

Give Shaq a real team player, or at least as team-oriented as Kobe is, and he would do wonders with any number of players out there: Mike Bibby, Stephon Marbury, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Brevon Knight, Paul Pierce, Carmelo Anthony, Steve Francis, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson and those are just the guards. Manu Ginobili would find room to maneuver with Shaq on his team, I would think. Oh, and he already is getting some work out of that kid Wade, so let's throw his name out there as well, but he just seems like another member of this pack, doesn't he? No better, no worse.

He always wanted a good forward to play along side, so how would he do with Dirk Nowitzki, Vince Carter, Peja, KG, Corey Maggette, Rashard Lewis, Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, LeBron James, Michael Finley, moving Amare Stoudemire from center over to PF, and even a healthy version of Chris Webber and his uncanny passing ability. Shaq would have loved that.

Kobe, T-Mac, Ray Allen & Allen Iverson? Yeah, he could carry their egos around as well, though only one has had that chance.

That comes to 29 players who are capable of providing more, the same, or slightly less support then that 30th player who feels the credit mostly belonged to him.

Personally, your short list of suspects are the least optimum choices to place with Shaq, as Kobe, A.I., and T-Mac all suffer from similar inflated ego problems, but Allen could have done so much more then Kobe, it is sick to think about it.

[westkoast]

So is your favoritism towards him. Which one of us would you say is the one who has really been viewing Bryant through rose colored glasses?

--I am bias towards Kobe, Hes my favorite player.  Thats a given.  Ive admitted that.  The difference between us?  I at least *try* to be objective.

While Kobe has a good game, I have never thought much of his attitude about getting advice, whether it has come from a nonentity like Phil Jackson about Bryant being more of a team player, or listening to advisors regarding his public statements about his trial in Colorado.  

--Obviously he did take advice or they never would have won.  Is he hard headed?  Very much so.

Did Shaq contribute to the problems regarding Kobe? Well, to use your own line of logic against you, how come O'Neal didnt have comflicts the first few seasons with anyone in Orlando? How come no one is having any conflicts with him in Miami? And to stretch this a bit further, how did Karl Malone, Chucky Atkins, Lamar Odom, Gary Payton, Derek Fisher, etal get along with Kobe? Anyone listed here join Shaq as publically stating that they were, shall we say, "disgruntled" with Kobe, for any reason?

--Uhh JoMaL, Shaq and Penny had major problems.  How come no one is having conflicts with him in Miami?  Because they dont have a second super star, yet.  Shaq has already admitted to him not doing what he should of with Penny/Kobe and said he wont make the same mistake with Wade.  He can admit it, yet you still cant see it.

Now, please name those players other then Kobe who have had a public feud with Shaq.

--Penny, that was a gimmie.

If you could put any 20-30 players with Shaq at the two guard then how come he didnt win the first few seasons with LA and how come he didnt win in Orlando at all?  Miami is doing well because Wade, just like Kobe, makes the load on Shaq a heck of alot less.  They both dominate the perimeter.  There is not 20-30 players in this league that can dominate the backcourt like that.  There is like 4.

Didn't Shaq get to the championship round while in Orlando with Penny Hardaway? They didn't win, but then, how many years did Shaq and Bryant play together in LA before they won - after Phil Jackson showed up and told Shaq, at least, how to do it. He told Kobe too, but Kobe probably blew him off, as always. Which just goes and makes my point all over again. Jaskson + Shaq + (Name support player of your choice here) = championship.  

--Yes they did and what happend?  They lost.   Uhh a few, while Kobe was still developing his game.  Once he started to pick up the game PJ showed up and took it to the next level.  He came straight from high school remember?  Kobe just blew him off yet he turned into the best perimeter player in the game under PJ :lol:  Not any support player could have played and you know it.  Still bitter from the year Kobe took you guys out of the playoffs?

Now, in Miami, you have Shaq + Wade + (have you SEEN who else is playing on the Heat lately?   YEEEECCHHH!!!!) may get another Shaq team to the championship round. Here is a little hint about that. They won't be playing the Lakers led by Kobe Bryant.  Not this year, not next year, not before Shaq has put his size 23's up on a cushion after ten years of retirement.

--Didnt know that players like Eddie Jones, Steve Smith, Laetner, were such horrible horrible supporting players that dont help out at all.

Who had the heroic overtime against the Pacers in the finals when Shaq was on the bench that sealed the deal?  Who torched Minny last year to swing the momentum is the Lakers favor?  Who made the play that sealed the deal for Portland that first year?   Who consistantly torched YOUR Kings and the Spurs on the road during the three-peat?  Kobe HANDLED teams on the road and Shaq dominated at home.  Surely your memory is not that shot JoMaL.  It wasnt that long ago when the Lakers swept the Kings and Kobe had back to back games where he just destroyed the Kings.  To say ANY 2-guard could team up with Shaq and win 3 championships is a joke.

Shaq opened up opportunities for Kobe, not the other way around. Teams prepared for O'Neal, not for Kobe. Team's offenses got stymied because of Shaq, not because of Bryant. If Kobe was able to produce so effectively in those games you mentioned, give the real reason.

--Kobe never helped Shaq out?  Did someone steal JoMaL's password?  You are one of the most intelligent basketball posters on the board and you still think Shaq did not benefit from Kobe?  The triangle didnt help either I guess.  The triangle never got anyone shots for the Lakers.  I dont deny Shaq made it easier for him but to say Shaq didnt benefit from a dominate outside player is not true.  The triangle also gives alot of players shots, Shaq or not.  Ask BJ Armstrong, Paxton, and Steve Kerr.

At times, Allan Iverson has singlehandedly won games, as have Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady, Chris Webber, Mike Bibby, Ray Allen, Stephon Marbury, Jason Kidd, and I don't think I need to list the 20 or 30 other players who have accomplished the feat just like Kobe has. They all have also failed in crunch time at various rates, none quite as often as Kobe, but that is fodder for another thread.

--What does this have to do with anything?  Plenty of players win games for their teams by themselves.  I watched a Clipper scrub come off the bench and get 4 huge dunks, block 2 shots, and snatch 3 rebounds to win the game for them.  How many of those guys have won big playoffs games single handly?  How many of those guys have won games in the finals?  Bibby...AI....uhh thats it.  Kidd doesnt win games himself seeing how he dominates by passing.  Marbury?  I guess that one shot in PHX against the Spurs counts.  Allen?  Webber?  You are comparing one and two times in the playoffs to 4 years of KILLING teams in the playoffs.

But none of those others have benefitted as much as Bryant has by by having opposing teams constantly keeping one eye glued to Shaquille O'Neal lurking in the paint. Other big men have talent and poise and are dangerous, but O'Neal dominates like no other. If the ball gets in to him, they know they have no chance at all. Kobe exploited that on occasion. I should hope so. More importantly, it affected how Kobe would be guarded. It made Kobe believe it was all him doing it, and Shaq was just in the way, somehow. Now, he is going to learn the truth. See how he does in those tight situations without having an O'Neal on your team.

--Again with the bias...on occasion :lol:  They won 3 championships JoMaL.  How many times did Kobe exploit the Kings by using Shaq?  Kobe was the person on the Laker squad who passed the ball the most to Shaq.  Where have you been?  Thats an olddddd stat.  Kobe didnt believe he did it all himself.  Thats JoMaL trying to put thoughts into Kobe's head via a message board.



A few more years of possible championships versus a lot more years of Kobe.
Lakers with Shaq still on the team =  :bounce:
Lakers with Kobe for the next decade =  :cry:  
I am real glad you won't mind, because the rest of us sure are glad to see Shaq in Miami!!!

--A few more years of championships?  No.  For the simple fact that Shaq wouldnt have someone on the perimeter to help him out.  Do you forget you are talking to someone who watched Shaq every night when he was inbetween all-star perimeter players?  Lakers didnt dominate with Shaq until after Kobe matured and PJ installed the triangle.  What makes you think an older, less motivated Shaq woul dhave done better than when he first came to LA?

Im not happy hes in Miami but im not bummed out either because he is not going to be in this league forever.  Its either stay with out of shape Shaq for a few more years and let Kobe go.  Or deal with rebuilding for a few years until the Lakers can pull some players that compliment Kobe?  Lakers would have made the playoffs this year if it wasnt for the fact that they put the triangle in mid-season.  Thats with a unit that hasnt played together with only 5 returning players from last year and a coach who left!   The Lakers suck but to say its all Kobe's fault isnt true.  You are one of those people who have hated Kobe for the longest time but didnt want to look like a 'hater' now you have something to hate him for!

[JoMal]

First off, WK, I would not count on Kobe staying healthy for all that much longer. It is not the age, it is the mileage. While Kobe still has youth, the NBA season takes its toll on everyone and Bryant is no exception. He already has started to feel the grind and it is only going to get worse because of the way he plays and the position he plays. And all those minutes played. The cummulative totals are just hard on the body, no matter how good a shape you are in.

--I am bias towards Kobe, Hes my favorite player. Thats a given. Ive admitted that. The difference between us? I at least *try* to be objective.   

Again with the bias...on occasion  They won 3 championships JoMaL. How many times did Kobe exploit the Kings by using Shaq? Kobe was the person on the Laker squad who passed the ball the most to Shaq. Where have you been? Thats an olddddd stat. Kobe didnt believe he did it all himself. Thats JoMaL trying to put thoughts into Kobe's head via a message board.

Exactly who would Kobe be passing the ball to if Shaq was not there? We know now. No one.

I believe I have said several times, it was Shaq that teams had to contend with. It was Shaq who caused other teams to alter their own offensive sets, just enough to hinder their game plan and affect their shot selection. Put Kobe, T-Mac, Iverson, or any other player out on the court with Shaq, it would still amount to dealing with Shaq and letting the other guy look good by getting the chances to win games. As you so eloquently stated by noting how often Kobe got to do just that.

How often?? Often. Very often. Made Kobe look quite the gifted young man. Made him get the glory for hitting those key shots, to his credit. Happened often.

Westkoast, I hope you enjoyed that visit to the Laker past, because you are now often going to wish that those three guys on the other team could find something better to do then dog Kobe all over the court as he tries to duplicate those game winning shots. Who is he going to pass the ball into now? No one.    

Now, you are certainly correct in the assessment that Shaq needs that other player to maximize his own contributions.

As for my anti-Kobe bias, sorry, but that actually is not relevant to any of this. This is what I am saying. For the Lakers to build their team around Bryant is a mistake and they would be better off trading him. There is just too much baggage with the guy, players do not seem to like playing with him, and worse, do not seem to like him as a person. He is isolated. He is getting poor social advice. He is not listening to others who may be giving him social advice. The point is, it is time for the Lakers and Bryant to divorce, for the good of both parties.

THAT, my friend, is very sound advice. You can still root all you want for Kobe on another team, but he and LA need to make a break.  

--Penny, that was a gimmie.

Penny was wrapped up in himself just as much as Kobe has been, what with that mini-Penny nonsense they built tha old ad campaign around. It took a major injury to humble him, and while not the player he once was, he certainly is a better "team" player now then when he and Shaq were teammates.

So, yeah, your right, Shaq feuded a bit with Hardaway. Congradulations on identifying the pre-Kobe in all of this.

Still bitter from the year Kobe took you guys out of the playoffs?

Can't remember Kobe doing any such thing. Thought it was Horry. Is Bryant now taking credit for that too?

I really remember how completely different the Kings played against the Lakers as opposed to any other team. They looked and played with a lack of confidence.

Was it because of all the Zengers sent our way by Phil Jackson? Noooooo, that was more motivator then stagnator. Was it the ever present threat of Bryant winning games by taking that daring last second shot? Ummmmmmnnnnnnoo. He was just a ball hog keeping the log warm for ....... now who was it that bothered the Kings all those years. Let me think.. It is on the tip of my tongue.

Do you and Kobe actually believe that Bryant scared other teams with his last second heriocs? :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

I would let Kobe shoot that ball every time, because the law of averages favored the other team getting the better end of THAT deal.

Thank God this conversation isn't about Robert Horry!!!!    :rofl:     :rofl:

The Lakers suck but to say its all Kobe's fault isnt true. You are one of those people who have hated Kobe for the longest time but didnt want to look like a 'hater' now you have something to hate him for!

Gee, westkoast, sorry you feel that way. Because I can't ever remember trying to hide my dislike for Kobe in the past. And the thing is, I have always liked his game. But he must be a complete B**ch to play along side. There are plenty of other ballhogs in the League, like A.I. or T-Mac, and Webber, who somehow still endear themselves to most of their teammates.

But Kobe has maybe one friend on the Lakers, and that is probably temporary.

I think trading him is what the Lakers need, and you should consider that I am not now, nor never will be, a Laker fan. But for the sake of your favorite franchise, Bryant is hurting your chances for the future.    

[Guest]

Can't remember Kobe doing any such thing. Thought it was Horry. Is Bryant now taking credit for that too?

If you can't remember Kobe winning several games against the Kings almost on his own, you obviously have either a short memory or you are repressing memories.

I believe I have said several times, it was Shaq that teams had to contend with. It was Shaq who caused other teams to alter their own offensive sets, just enough to hinder their game plan and affect their shot selection. Put Kobe, T-Mac, Iverson, or any other player out on the court with Shaq, it would still amount to dealing with Shaq and letting the other guy look good by getting the chances to win games. As you so eloquently stated by noting how often Kobe got to do just that.

You keep missing the fact that teams had to deal with Shaq AND Kobe -- it was the reason the Lakers won THREE championships -- they BOTH needed each other but were too proud and too arrogant to admit it!  There WERE games in which Shaq took over but you seem to be oblivious to the games that Kobe took over as well -- games against the Kings, Pacers and Spurs in which it was Kobe that beat the competition rather than Shaq.  You can always tell when a player is dominant because defenses are set to play against them -- there have been MANY times when Kobe has been as much of the focus of the opposing defense as Shaq was.  Games where teams decided "let's give Shaq his points but let's make sure that Kobe and co. don't beat us."  Still not sure why you fail to see this point -- it's been pretty obvious over the years!  

Not saying that Shaq hasn't been MORE of the focal point of defenses but again, Shaq needed Kobe as much as Kobe needed Shaq!

By-the-way, as for Shaq not having anyone in Miami other than Wade -- you REALLY need to look a little closer at their line-up.  EJ is a solid role player on offense but you seem to miss the fact that he is a defensive stopper and Miami wouldn't be winning like they are without his defense.  You also Udonis Haslem -- this guy is a good player and is still learning the NBA.  It's pretty obvious that Shaq has made it a lot easier for him but he's a keeper -- I drafted him on my fantasy league and he was doing VERY well!  When you look at the Lakers outside of Kobe and Shaq, the Lakers had solid role players -- not great stars (seems that I remember a LOT of people talking about the lack of talent on the Lakers outside of Shaq and Kobe -- you don't remember who one of those people might be, do you JoMal?) -- hmm, the EXACT thing you are talking about in Miami, right?  Hmmm . . .

Gee, westkoast, sorry you feel that way. Because I can't ever remember trying to hide my dislike for Kobe in the past. And the thing is, I have always liked his game. But he must be a complete B**ch to play along side. There are plenty of other ballhogs in the League, like A.I. or T-Mac, and Webber, who somehow still endear themselves to most of their teammates.

[Guest_Randy]

Sorry that was my previous reply hit the reply on accident . . .

Also . . .

Gee, westkoast, sorry you feel that way. Because I can't ever remember trying to hide my dislike for Kobe in the past. And the thing is, I have always liked his game. But he must be a complete B**ch to play along side. There are plenty of other ballhogs in the League, like A.I. or T-Mac, and Webber, who somehow still endear themselves to most of their teammates.

Wow, do you REALLY want to stand on that quote?  Do you want to talk about how everybody really thinks of TMac in Orlando or Toronto?  Let's talk about how Peja and Vlade feel about CWebb?  You really think that all AI's teammates like him?  Do they respect him on the floor?  Absolutely -- but it's not been that long ago since AI was blowing off practices because he didn't need them (of course, with the subtle message to his teammates that they did).  I think you will find that Kobe's teammates respect what Kobe does on the floor -- and I would also add that you really don't know how all of Kobe's teammates feel about him -- you are simply using conjecture to determine your own opinions -- however, your opinions aren't the same as facts!

[westkoast]

JoMaL...ill be back with my reply when I have a decent amount of downtime to fully address everything.

But :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: at your selective memory.  You dont remember Kobe torching the Kings in Arco arena?  Are you serious?  Your bias has alot to do with the whole conversation because you are making assumptions based on what you personally think of Kobe.  Was the 2000-2001 playoffs that long ago?

[Laker Fan]

My My My, but we have an axe to grind don’t we JoMal? I know it must be rough knowing your vaunted Petrie couldn’t put together the right combination to win it all when the City of Sacramento and the Maloofs basically, even by your own admission, gave him total and complete free reign to do what was necessary to accomplish just that, and wound up managing no better than the bridesmaid spot EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!!!

You see, I understand why you are bitter, you know that windows of opportunity for teams like the Kings are ultra rare, few and far between deals, whereas in Los Angeles there is a constant, that being that the Lakers will win a championship (or 3) every few years and that every decade can count 1-2 if not more banners being added to the Staples Center rafters. So really, I do understand your rant against LA, I’d be bitter and gloating all at the same time myself were I in your very old shoes.

But as has been very expertly pointed out here already, your version of the facts is more fantasy than even J.R.R. Tolkien could come up with. However, allow me to add a couple of points:

If you play in the NBA, you should be expected to STAY IN SHAPE! If you play in the NBA, you should be expected to earn your money by STAYING IN SHAPE! If you play in the NBA, you should be expected to give 110% on and off season, this would include things like, hmmm, let me think, ah yes, getting needed surgery during the off season in a timely manner rather than having the attitude that “I was hurt during the season, I’ll get fixed during the next season, too bad if it hurts my team”. If you play in the NBA, you should be expected, if you want a raise, to prove you’re committed to STAYING IN SHAPE! If you are a fat, out of shape, lazy slob, and you yell at your owner in public “Pay me my money!!”, aforementioned owner should yell right back at you, “lose some weight and prove you’re worth it, you fat, out of shape, lazy slob!!”.
If you play in the NBA, and all the above, and too many others to mention, apply to you, hmmm, maybe if you play alongside a player with a hyper-inflated ego (to go along with your own), you shouldn’t be surprised if this player gets very irritated at you for not being COMMITTED to being the best you can be, for not being COMMITTED to STAYING IN SHAPE! For not giving it your all on and off season, for being well, Shaquille O’Neal.

The “teammate” O’Neal had become the last 2 seasons with Los Angeles, was all of this and more, and the pathetic thing about this is, absolutely, positively, no way on God’s green earth was he EVER going to rectify any of the above mentioned faults and bring LA another ring, and yet you say LA should have committed to him rather than Kobe?!?! Buss could have given him more than he was asking and it wouldn’t have changed a thing. Why? Because, (and I love how the irony is lost on people living in cow pastures like Sacramento), for all the finger pointing at Kobe Bryant being so selfish and having such an over inflated ego, Shaq honestly believes the world revolves around his planetary size girth, and he felt he had outgrown LA. How is that for selfish? You feel you’re bigger than then the most storied and most consistently successful team in professional sports history! When really the only thing he had outgrown was every item of clothing he owned, and the height of SELFISHNESS is playing your last 2, really your last 3-4 seasons with one team as a fat, out of shape, lazy slob, because you are simply not committed to winning as much as you are to getting yours and then leaving and to prove that the world does revolve around your planetary size girth, you remarkably lose weight and get yourself committed to the business of winning, all things you WOULDN’T do in LA.

Now I ask you JoMal, why is all of that OK for Shaq, but Kobe is a poisonous cancer for demanding that Shaq share his commitment to STAYING IN SHAPE and putting w’s in the win column? Criticize Kobe all you want for his selfishness and ego, and lord knows we Laker fans can’t argue with you there, in fact I for one will join in the bashing, but don’t put the fiasco that the Lakers were the last 2-3 years of Shaq-Kobe on Kobe alone, the clash of ego’s there transcends just one man, and when you add Phil Jackson’s equally huge ego into the mix, you’re going to tell me this was all Bryant? Give me just a small break!

I won’t even address the issue of how Phil Jackson and his little mind games and agenda figured into all of this, suffice to say, this was a masochism tango at its finest, and as we all know, it takes 2, or in this case 3, to tango, all three of these cats had their dancing shoes on.

[JoMal]

You Laker fans truly are blind. You just can't see, or refuse to see, what the rest of the NBA world have no trouble seeing and understanding.

For instance, if Shaq is such a fat slob who refused to commit to his team and his teammates, then his attitude would very simply be transferred to his new team, wouldn't it?

Well, wouldn't it?

He is the same guy that he was in LA, isn't he? Except there is something, or somebody, still in LA who did not travel across the country with him. Somebody who Shaq apparently had had enough of, who Shaq was sick of being around. Now, why would Shaq act so distainful to the Laker franchise in the first place, but once he joined the Heat, he lost weight and looks active once again around the basket? Who was it with the Lakers that he truly could no longer stand? Who was it that Laker management apparently anointed as the hero of the post season instead of Shaq, who was royally pissed off by that committment? Does any of this ring a bell, oh ye of short term memories?  

Did Shaq GET his money after being traded to Miami. UMMMM no. Same ole salary on a contract that expires after 2005/06. Has he been yelling at the owner about him being underpaid now?

And I love the constant references to other teams having to prepare for both Shaq AND Kobe. That Kobe won games against the Kings and others 'ON HIS OWN'!!

Now, gentlemen!! From that little snippet from the past, I have to assume that you are now admitting that Kobe is LOSING all these games on his own as well.

Since you are simply and completely dismissing the influence, if not the presence, of Shaq in all those games that Kobe helped win, it just makes we wonder if Kobe was simply playing with someone who prevented the triple coverage Kobe is getting now, while he still thinks he can hoist up hopeless shots instead of finding the open guy at the end of games.

Why can't Kobe win as often now? As you say, he has supporting players out there with him, just like before. Just liike all those guys Shaq has, doing the menial work while he works the middle. Plus Wade. Kobe has all those menial support players, expected to do the dirty work, plus....

Odom? Butler? Atkins?.

You see, fellas, somehow, someway, that fat slob who you view as equally responsible for the demise of the Lakers seems to have worked hard to integrate a fairly average bunch (sorry, but while your points about Shaq's teammates are warranted, Randy, the Laker support players are supposedly a better group) into the best team in the East.

Kobe, meanwhile, has worked real hard at apparently alienating just about every one else on the Lakers.

And that darned media who keeps reporting it!! You know the one, Randy. The same one that absolutely insisted that Peja and C-Webb did not like each other going into this season. The one that figured that every time they were seen joking around on the bench during games that it must have been a cover up for hostilities. The same one that keeps getting those annoying quotes out of players who keep being misquoted and having what they say taken completely out of context as a result, requiring another press conference to tell everyone that the Lakers are just one big happy family.

Oh, as for Divac, yeah there may be some truth to a rift between him and C-Webb, but Chris saying he wanted Vlade back for another season was not sincere enough, I guess. That Petrie let him go, even though he knew how much it would hurt Peja must have been Webber's doing as well. That Petrie had been trying to trade C-Webb since the first week of the season completely supports your contention that Divac would still be that pass happy, funny guy in the middle this year if not for Webber's problem with him.

But what I really love about you Laker guys is how often you bring up all the past insults about Sacramento and the lack of championships we have won compared to the Lakers. It is so predictable.

But not one of you. NOT ONE OF YOU!!!!! has been able to really argue against my one and only point to all of this. Kobe is killing your franchise. Not Sacramento and its cow patties, or its Queens, or whatever else you want to throw my way.

Not Fat Shaq and his financial demands. Not Jackson, who's main fault in all of this is, what, a failure to adequately deal with the diverse personalities of Kobe and Shaq while winning three championships with them? And had the gall to publically come out and admit that dealing with Kobe Bryant while the Laker management gave the kid all the support against him was killing his love of the game?

Kobe Bryant is the reason those championships are going to stay a thing of the past for you guys for a while. Why is it you guys can not see that he is not the star player you seem to think he is? Being triple teamed nightly is not a sign of respect. It is a sign that other teams are completely aware that Kobe will still try to do it all himself and they have no reason to worry about guarding anyone else.

DUH!!!

[Guest_Randy]

You Laker fans truly are blind. You just can't see, or refuse to see, what the rest of the NBA world have no trouble seeing and understanding.

For instance, if Shaq is such a fat slob who refused to commit to his team and his teammates, then his attitude would very simply be transferred to his new team, wouldn't it?

Well, wouldn't it?

He is the same guy that he was in LA, isn't he? Except there is something, or somebody, still in LA who did not travel across the country with him. Somebody who Shaq apparently had had enough of, who Shaq was sick of being around. Now, why would Shaq act so distainful to the Laker franchise in the first place, but once he joined the Heat, he lost weight and looks active once again around the basket? Who was it with the Lakers that he truly could no longer stand? Who was it that Laker management apparently anointed as the hero of the post season instead of Shaq, who was royally pissed off by that committment? Does any of this ring a bell, oh ye of short term memories?  

Did Shaq GET his money after being traded to Miami. UMMMM no. Same ole salary on a contract that expires after 2005/06. Has he been yelling at the owner about him being underpaid now?

And I love the constant references to other teams having to prepare for both Shaq AND Kobe. That Kobe won games against the Kings and others 'ON HIS OWN'!!

Now, gentlemen!! From that little snippet from the past, I have to assume that you are now admitting that Kobe is LOSING all these games on his own as well.

Since you are simply and completely dismissing the influence, if not the presence, of Shaq in all those games that Kobe helped win, it just makes we wonder if Kobe was simply playing with someone who prevented the triple coverage Kobe is getting now, while he still thinks he can hoist up hopeless shots instead of finding the open guy at the end of games.

Why can't Kobe win as often now? As you say, he has supporting players out there with him, just like before. Just liike all those guys Shaq has, doing the menial work while he works the middle. Plus Wade. Kobe has all those menial support players, expected to do the dirty work, plus....

Odom? Butler? Atkins?.

You see, fellas, somehow, someway, that fat slob who you view as equally responsible for the demise of the Lakers seems to have worked hard to integrate a fairly average bunch (sorry, but while your points about Shaq's teammates are warranted, Randy, the Laker support players are supposedly a better group) into the best team in the East.

Kobe, meanwhile, has worked real hard at apparently alienating just about every one else on the Lakers.

And that darned media who keeps reporting it!! You know the one, Randy. The same one that absolutely insisted that Peja and C-Webb did not like each other going into this season. The one that figured that every time they were seen joking around on the bench during games that it must have been a cover up for hostilities. The same one that keeps getting those annoying quotes out of players who keep being misquoted and having what they say taken completely out of context as a result, requiring another press conference to tell everyone that the Lakers are just one big happy family.

Oh, as for Divac, yeah there may be some truth to a rift between him and C-Webb, but Chris saying he wanted Vlade back for another season was not sincere enough, I guess. That Petrie let him go, even though he knew how much it would hurt Peja must have been Webber's doing as well. That Petrie had been trying to trade C-Webb since the first week of the season completely supports your contention that Divac would still be that pass happy, funny guy in the middle this year if not for Webber's problem with him.

But what I really love about you Laker guys is how often you bring up all the past insults about Sacramento and the lack of championships we have won compared to the Lakers. It is so predictable.

But not one of you. NOT ONE OF YOU!!!!! has been able to really argue against my one and only point to all of this. Kobe is killing your franchise. Not Sacramento and its cow patties, or its Queens, or whatever else you want to throw my way.

Not Fat Shaq and his financial demands. Not Jackson, who's main fault in all of this is, what, a failure to adequately deal with the diverse personalities of Kobe and Shaq while winning three championships with them? And had the gall to publically come out and admit that dealing with Kobe Bryant while the Laker management gave the kid all the support against him was killing his love of the game?

Kobe Bryant is the reason those championships are going to stay a thing of the past for you guys for a while. Why is it you guys can not see that he is not the star player you seem to think he is? Being triple teamed nightly is not a sign of respect. It is a sign that other teams are completely aware that Kobe will still try to do it all himself and they have no reason to worry about guarding anyone else.

DUH!!!

For instance, if Shaq is such a fat slob who refused to commit to his team and his teammates, then his attitude would very simply be transferred to his new team, wouldn't it?

Well, wouldn't it?

Are you from Texas, JoMal?  I'll type REALLY slowly so that perhaps it MIGHT sink in this time!  Umm, aren't YOU one of the ones who have pointed out in past years that Shaq was out-of-shape?  (there's that short memory problem again, huh?)

Let's do some simple deduction (sorry that I can't use crayons on here to draw you a picture and make it easier for you):
  1.  Shaq got in shape and the Lakers won their first NBA championship.
  2.  Shaq fitness dropped each year after their first championship.
  3.  Shaq was NOT in good shape last season (this in spite of the fact that he was eligible for a contract extension DURING that year)
  4.  Shaq got INTO shape after being traded to Miami.

Hmm, makes you wonder why Shaq got into shape, doesn't it?  Let's see, it's pretty obvious that he wasn't going to get into shape in LA -- he had already proved everything he felt he needed to prove in LA -- however, he STILL has something to prove in Miami, right?  Come on, it's not too difficult to follow here -- you can get it!  Shaq only got into shape because he felt he had something to prove (that he didn't need Kobe to win a championship).

Oh, as for Divac, yeah there may be some truth to a rift between him and C-Webb, but Chris saying he wanted Vlade back for another season was not sincere enough, I guess. That Petrie let him go, even though he knew how much it would hurt Peja must have been Webber's doing as well. That Petrie had been trying to trade C-Webb since the first week of the season completely supports your contention that Divac would still be that pass happy, funny guy in the middle this year if not for Webber's problem with him.

Now THIS is humorous, JoMal.  So we are supposed to believe EVERYTHING that a player says, right?  I mean, after all, CWebb SAID he wanted Vlade back -- forget everything he had done that said otherwise because, after all, he SAID he wanted Vlade back.  Okay, let's take all players at their word -- if that's the case, then I don't even know what you are talking about because Atkins clearly stated that he didn't have a problem with Kobe, right?  I mean, after all, that's what Atkins SAID, right?  Oh, this is another one of those "it's right for the Kings but not for the Lakers" hypocrisy, right?

But not one of you. NOT ONE OF YOU!!!!! has been able to really argue against my one and only point to all of this. Kobe is killing your franchise. Not Sacramento and its cow patties, or its Queens, or whatever else you want to throw my way.

Umm, show me how Kobe is "killing" our franchise?  Because the Lakers are playing poorly?  In order to be right about your current assessment, you ARE going to have to wait more than ONE year to determine how correct you are.  Did YOU think that Odom, Atkins, Mihm and Grant were going to be the players surrounding Kobe to bring the Lakers to the promise land?  Really?  Did you?  I think we need to wait until Peja puts on the purple and gold and joins Kobe and then let's judge the Lakers -- rebuilding takes a couple of years -- very few teams can rebuild overnight!  SacTown may be winning more games but they still have rebuilding issues (mainly can they manage to keep Peja after management LIED to him!).  

[westkoast]

You Laker fans truly are blind. You just can't see, or refuse to see, what the rest of the NBA world have no trouble seeing and understanding.

For instance, if Shaq is such a fat slob who refused to commit to his team and his teammates, then his attitude would very simply be transferred to his new team, wouldn't it?

Well, wouldn't it?

 

We are blind?  LOL...could you not see what everyone else has seen?  Shaq didnt feel the need to work out in LA.  He felt he was so good and so much better than anyone else at the position he did not have to hit the weights in the off-season.  Whats the difference now?  HE HAS SOMETHING TO PROVE.  In LA he didnt.  They had the rings, he had the MVP awards, etc.  Lakers dumped him off and it bruised his ego, so he really tried harder than he has in the last 7 years to get in shape during the off-season.  This is the same guy who said 'I got hurt on company time so I should be able to recover on company time'

Has his attitude transfered to Miami? Yes it has JoMaL...he reffered to Wade as one of his 'children' and clumped him in with Kobe and Penny.  Not a teammate, not someone who is making his life easier, not an equal, HIS CHILD.

"And I love the constant references to other teams having to prepare for both Shaq AND Kobe. That Kobe won games against the Kings and others 'ON HIS OWN'!!  Now, gentlemen!! From that little snippet from the past, I have to assume that you are now admitting that Kobe is LOSING all these games on his own as well. "

:rofl: @ this logic, you can do a little bit better button pushing than this JoMal.   Alot of those games mentioned Shaq daddy was on the bench or was off that night and Kobe put the team on his back.  How is it that in your mind Shaq won every single game for them and Kobe never did?

"Why can't Kobe win as often now? As you say, he has supporting players out there with him, just like before. Just liike all those guys Shaq has, doing the menial work while he works the middle. Plus Wade. Kobe has all those menial support players, expected to do the dirty work, plus....

Odom? Butler? Atkins?. "

I guess every supporting player is the same now.  Crazy.  I thought there was different styles of play and different approaches to the game but I guess when you are a supporting player you all play the same way.  With that said I guess Mike Bibby, a supporting player, is the same as say a Jason Williams.  Right?

"Kobe, meanwhile, has worked real hard at apparently alienating just about every one else on the Lakers. "

JoMaL, maybe you should get a job with Miss Cleo.  You obviously can read minds and know that Kobe has alienated every single Laker player on this squad this year.  Why stay where you are at when you can charge 4.95 a minute?

"But not one of you. NOT ONE OF YOU!!!!! has been able to really argue against my one and only point to all of this. Kobe is killing your franchise. Not Sacramento and its cow patties, or its Queens, or whatever else you want to throw my way"

Lakers make the playoffs and this never gets brought up......I guess Kobe never should have decided to switch to the triangle all by himself.  Killing the franchise?  Because the Lakers are in a rebuilding year?  That darn KG is killing his own franchise too!

Good try with the baiting but it seems your skills are fading.






 

[JoMal]

Okay - you want simple, here it is -

Shaq in LA does not work out, gets fat, demands more money while still leading the team to three championships, but he turns around his failings once traded to Miami.

Am I blaming his faults while in Los Angeles on Kobe? Am I declaring that his attitude improved once he was separated from Kobe and the Laker environment that was backing Kobe instead of him? Call it fiscal, or whatever, but Shaq acted like he had had enough of teaming with Bryant. LA was just where he played with him.

So maybe he recommits while in Miami because he has something to prove. Like he can win without Kobe and he was the main reason that LA was successful, not Bryant.

 :huh:  :huh:  :huh:  :huh:

Sorry... but guys - isn't that the point I was trying to make? Am I not conveying exactly that thought? So Kobe is finally motivating Shaq to get in shape. Odd that he is doing it 3,000 miles away from him instead of along side of him. Kobe is really a genius at motivating (ex) teammates!!

I believe what I have been saying is that the reason the Lakers were able to play as effectively against other teams had to do with Shaq's presense on the Lakers, not Kobe's. I still can't understand how you keep missing that point. Who cares whether Shaq was on the bench while Kobe did his thing? The games were predicated on dealing with Shaq and (enter secondary support player's name here). Secondary support player puts up all star stats and gets on ESPN often as he breaks down opponents. Secondary support player talks magnanimously about how his teammates helped him get open and he couldn't have done it all on his own.

How come you guys only talk about when Kobe won those games instead of the equal number the Lakers may have won if he had passed the ball into the low post to Shaq instead of trying to be the hero every time. Kobe won his share on his own. I seem to remember him losing his share as well, and this during your hayday years.

Did I again forget to mention my sole point of this is that Kobe still thinks he is "THAT GUY", and he does not need the help of a teammate attracting most of the defensive attention? How do I keep forgetting to mention that Kobe was the beneficiary of playing along side Shaq, while Shaq seems able to create an all star player along side him, who may not really be as great as they think they are on their own? Penny Hardaway's all star slide, while injury induced, looked like it was on its way anyway. Wade is playing all star level ball now. Was he considered the equal of James or Anthony coming into the League? Uh....no, though he looked good his rookie year, this season he looks REAL good.

Kobe? He had no business being a starter on the all star team this year over Steve Nash. Maybe a back up to McGrady, but not as a starter. But he has been rewarded that designation since his undeserving placement on the team his rookie year.

However, all of this talk about his talent is totally irrelevant. I concede the fact the kid does have talent, okay. Can we at least agree that I know he can play basketball?

And that the Lakers will never improve dramatically until they trade him and start over without his baggage, isolation issues, talent for making disgruntled teammates, and maintaining a ridiculously loyal fan base who can not now, nor never will see how he is ruining your pride.

[JoMal]

From ESPN news: Kobe and Chucky Atkins got into a fight

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Los Angeles, Cal. -- NBA superstar Kobe Bryant and teammate Chucky Atkins had to be separated after last nights game versus the Minnesota Timberwolves after Atkins jumped on Bryant. Bryant threw Atkins off him and began to kick him in the face.

Allegdly, Bryant told Atkins he was a 'bum' for missing four consecutive three point attempts late in the second quarter in yesterdays game.

Earlier this week Bryant and Atkins had a war of words in the media after Atkins referred to Bryant as 'the GM'.