Passion of the Christ

[ziggy]

To paraphrase our good friend gaither (JW) you are just one of the misguided left wingers .  I won't hold it against you, just like you don't hold my reactionary right wing views against me   .  It is one of those yin and yang things.  You are left wing spurs fan who just had a boy, and I am a right wing blazer fan that just had a girl.  We keep the world in balance.  Matter and anti-matter.

[jn]

Hey ziggy I will be like Voltaire here, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Okay maybe not that far.  How about I am willing to be spanked repeatedly by a Laker Girl to defend the movie?

As for the previous posts I'm indeed glad to hear Mel repudiate his father's views.  

JoMal you'll note that I said "fiction".  Footage of 9/11 isn't fiction.  The claim in Matthew that the Jews admitted responsibility is, and the idea that Pilate was a reluctant executioner flies in the fact of history.  

I take a dim view of peoples ability to think subtlely, particularly about religion.  It seems most people need an enemy and they want clear distinctions between good and evil.  That very distinction is the basis of religions. It's also a huge part of politics both left and right.  

Will this movie cause an outbreak of attacks on Jews in the U.S? No, it won't. Will it bring together people for a healthy discussion? No, not many.    

[ziggy]

JN,
It brought a few together, and as best as I can tell it didn't get personal.  Thats not bad.

[spursfan101]

Sad to say that over the course of our worlds history, people's strong belief in religion, especially Christianity, has killed more people than probably all of our wars combined.  Yeah, I'm sure that's how JC always wanted it. (And that same mentality still exists today, just not to that extent.)

 :huh:  

[WayOutWest]

Saw the movie this weekend and Mel Gibson got daddy's message out loud and clear!  The jews ARE evil!!!    It's blatent why some jews were upset with this movie.

That was a brutal movie, JC took a major beat down for his beliefs.

I guess I better watch my back now that a movie about the Alamo is comming out soon.  Let the Mexican beat downs commence!

[SPURSX3]

I saw an interview with Mel last week in which he clearly stated that he does not agree with his father about the the Holocaust. He considers the Holocaust a grand scale tragedy that resulted in the torture and killing of millions of Jews. If he seemed curt in the interview you saw it has more to do with the fact that the newshounds refuse to let the issue drop, and I think Mel is tired of being put on the hot seat on account of things his dad said.

i agree, jn either missed it or is not stating the interview correctly.  Diane did ask Mel again about his beliefs of the holocaust and MEl DID say that he believes the holocaust happenned, his belief in that is not in line with his fathers belief.  in telling Diane to "not go there" was basically telling her, "hey this man is my father, good or bad, and i will not disrespect the man by talking bad about him in public."  that is how i took his approach to not duscussing the subject.  the matter of gibsons dad being crazy is really a personal issue, especially to Mel - why does he HAVE to bring that out to the public?  I dont think anybody here would go out and speak against thier own family, functional or disfunctional, lets try to watch who we call hypocritical in that regard, the man has a right to keep his own opinion of his father to himself.

I also want to agree with Ted, Mel at the same time did freak me out a bit, too much twitching and moving around and he had that crazed look in his eyes, i guess his own passion realy pours through, which i respect, he may really be caught up in it all.  good for him.  but at the same time he DID still come across as wierd in that interview, i would think a nonbeliever would be put off in seeing it by his demeanor rather than be more interested in seeing it.  Than again, Mel says this was not about the money so who knows.

I saw the film.  by no means would i take my children to see this movie, not even as a learning tool.  i can say that it struck me as hard to watch, but i think everyones reaction is going to be different - that much is apperant from the reviews the movie has received.  I dont think this movie needed to have background story of what lead up to the crucifiction - i have read critics saying it lacked build up, or a back story, to what happenned.  please, the story is how old?  if you dont know what happenned, maybe it would be good to atleast pick up a bible and read it to find out even if you dont believe.  the movie was to give those who know the story a visual, i mean sure most of us if not all know Christ was crucified, but what does that really mean besides being nailed to the cross?  was that it?  just nail him and put him up?  Gibsons idea of this event could be right on, it could also be way off, nobody knows for sure how terrifying it was, how bloody it was, how badly Christ must have suffered, we just know what was written with the small amount of depiction it gives us.  I think the film helps me to realize that even with the brutality in it showed, Christ did that for us, believer or non.  I dont think the film was anti semetic, it cold have happenned in a land ruled by pigmies as far as im concerned and it still would not have been anymore thier fault for one happenned then it is ours today.  it was man that did this, not a specific race, ethnic group, religion, just man in general.  in a sense, we all crucify Christ daily, its the fact that he forgives us that is so amazing to me.  you know to be honest the hardest scenes for me were not even the beat downs he took - and i had tears most of the movie, couldnt help it too be honest - the scenes that hurt the most were his "human" scenes.  Christ falling down as a child, and Christ happy as a young man were the two that gut wrenched me the most in the film, just the thought of him being happy and blind to the world at one time. I dont know.  I thought the film was good.  But i dont see everyong coming away with that same feeling, I think it will make people think to some extent.  it is worth a watch atleast i will say that much.  I mean why not see it becuase it is religious?  I think that would be as closed minded and hypocritical as saying, "religion is bad because..."  Its suppossed to be up to the individual that determines how fanatical something is, if you think you would go crazy and get stupid watching this film, then by all means, dont go see it.

[spursfan101]

Hoiw does everybody feel about the marketing and selling of movie related items, like the nail pendants and t-shirts?  It's certainly been done low key, tasteful and with class, I mean, were not seeing Jesus On the Cross Happy Meals or anything.

[SPURSX3]

Hoiw does everybody feel about the marketing and selling of movie related items, like the nail pendants and t-shirts?  It's certainly been done low key, tasteful and with class, I mean, were not seeing Jesus On the Cross Happy Meals or anything.

I think for such a contreversial film it was done the right way, show religious leaders the film from judaism and christianity and let them see for themselves the film and speak about it.  great move IMO.

[Guest_Randy]

Actually, there is a great deal of historical evidence to support most of the gospel account -- the writings of historians during and after this time show that Jesus was crucified (or hanged) and these different accounts paint it positive and/or negative based on the particular historian.  That Jesus was actually crucified, based on historical record, isn't in much question.  I think it was also fairly clear that the Jewish leaders of the time had a pretty big problem with the guy -- so I don't think political pressure is too much of a stretch to bring about his death at the hands of Pilate.  Go back and read the Jewish history and the rulings of Pilate and Herod and it becomes pretty clear that Pilate struggled to keep the people from rebellion on a pretty regular basis (and you didn't want to fail Caesar as a ruler -- he looked down on leaders who couldn't manage and rule the people without insurrection.

As for being anti-semetic, there isn't a Christian in the world who would say that Jesus was killed by Jews.  One of the things you should watch about the movie and note is how hard Jesus actually worked just to make it to Golgotha (the crucifixion site) -- he is painted as being driven to go the distance, and I think he was.  But people who actually believe in Jesus also believe it was our sins that put Jesus on the cross -- not the Jews or Pilate, so I truly don't believe this picture paints Jews and/or the Romans (i.e. Pilate -- the Romans were the only people who could actually have someone put to death on the cross -- the Jews, while they may have encouraged it -- even demanded it, couldn't give the orders to have Jesus crucified).

[WayOutWest]

I know the story behind JC and what/why he did on the cross.

Still, the bad guys throughout the movie where the Jews, to ignore their portrayel in the movie is silly and your typical religious approach to dealing with real problems/issues (ignore/hide it and hope for the best).

The Jews were the driving force behind putting him through that horrid ordeal IN THE MOVIE.

You guys are confusing what  you believe or where taught to believe vs. what was portrayed in the movie.

[jn]

"There isn't a Christian in the world who would say that Jesus was killed by the Jews."


 :huh:  :huh:  :huh:  :huh:

Except for a lot of them.  
 

[WayOutWest]

"There isn't a Christian in the world who would say that Jesus was killed by the Jews."


 :huh:  :huh:  :huh:  :huh:

Except for a lot of them.

BWAHAHA!

Randy has slipped away to LaLa land today.

That's like saying there isn't a Christian in the world that would kill/murder in the name of Christ!  :rolleyes:  

[Joe Vancil]

This was actually a discussion point for Skander, who is Muslim, and me, a Christian, from years ago.  My take on it is this:

Officially, by the letter of the law, the Romans crucified Jesus.

The instigators of the crucifixion were the Jews.

Jesus CHOSE to allow all of this to happen due to his love for all mankind in general, and me in particular.

To deny the Jewish role in the crucifixion is to deny the account given in the Bible.  Is that *ALL* Jews?  Not in my eyes.  Then again, my eyes don't count.

God's message is clear enough that he reserves vengeance for himself.  Good thing, too...doesn't seem like anybody else does it very fairly.

Asking who crucified Jesus is pointless.  It was the fact that he, an innocent man, died for the sins of the world that should be emphasized.  While I've not seen the movie yet, I certainly hope the movie is about Christ's love for us and the passion with which he loved mankind, that he should bear such a burden.  The central message to Christianity is love and forgiveness - not an unjust and brutal death or the abuse he endured.
 

[spursfan101]

The central message to Christianity is love and forgiveness - not an unjust and brutal death or the abuse he endured.

Don't forget vengeance at times.  If you believe the story of Noah and the Ark, God killed EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING on this Earth with the exception of like 8 people.  Those 8 people needed to care for the THOUSANDS of animals that were on the ark.

[Joe Vancil]

Don't forget vengeance at times. If you believe the story of Noah and the Ark, God killed EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING on this Earth with the exception of like 8 people. Those 8 people needed to care for the THOUSANDS of animals that were on the ark.

And that was *GOD'S* vengeance...not man's.