Poll: GNob or Kobme

[Guest_Randy]

I REALLY can't believe you are saying this Reality.  Manu IS a great team player -- he plays well within Pop's system (who seems to be allowing Manu and Parker more flexibility with and without the ball) -- he is a great slasher and a decent defender but you presently comparing Manu to one of the TOP 5 players in the league.  Say that to yourself again -- Kobe IS a top 5 player -- Manu isn't.  Manu isn't in the same league Kobe is -- whether he will ever get to that place, it is yet to be seen.  Defenses don't collapse on Manu -- they do on Kobe.  And yeah, Manu is shooting 48% from the field (decent but not great) because TD is getting doubled on EVERY possession.  

By-the-way, just for your info -- Manu's previous two games (before Phoenix):
   @ Houston  -  15 minutes, 1 for 5 - 20%, 6 points, 1 assist, 3 rebounds
      Clips      -  30 minutes, 3 for 10 - 30%, 13 points, 3 assists, 2 rebounds
 
After Phoenix:
    SacTown  -  29 minutes, 4 for 8 - 50%, 10 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds.

Perhaps we should hold out the Manu is as good as Kobe's statements.  Between you and Rick, Manu and Dalembert are the next MJ and Wilt.   :rofl:  

[WayOutWest]

Between you and Rick, Manu and Dalembert are the next MJ and Wilt.   :rofl:

 :cheers:

I think this explains everything Randy.  Anybody who thinks Manu can even sniff Kobe's rape day jock strap or thinks that Delambert is worth more than Johnson and Amare has clearly been knocking down a few in between crack smoking breaks.

[Reality]

Between you and Rick, Manu and Dalembert are the next MJ and Wilt.   :rofl:

:cheers:

I think this explains everything Randy.  Anybody who thinks Manu can even sniff Kobe's rape day jock strap or thinks that Delambert is worth more than Johnson and Amare has clearly been knocking down a few in between crack smoking breaks.

When you two are done with your room, address what SuperKobe did the last two years playoffs v Spurs.  With Tex Winters v Pop.  You know, since he's sooo much better.  A "top 5 player" combined with your top idol Shaq, whom you must have also considered top 5.  2nd round loss and .4 squeaker?

39% shooting 14 dribble per possession Meism.
Who won the latest championship?  Without 28 FTAs :up:

[Guest_Randy]

Between you and Rick, Manu and Dalembert are the next MJ and Wilt.   :rofl:

:cheers:

I think this explains everything Randy.  Anybody who thinks Manu can even sniff Kobe's rape day jock strap or thinks that Delambert is worth more than Johnson and Amare has clearly been knocking down a few in between crack smoking breaks.

When you two are done with your room, address what SuperKobe did the last two years playoffs v Spurs.  With Tex Winters v Pop.  You know, since he's sooo much better.  A "top 5 player" combined with your top idol Shaq, whom you must have also considered top 5.  2nd round loss and .4 squeaker?

39% shooting 14 dribble per possession Meism.
Who won the latest championship?  Without 28 FTAs :up:

Umm, it SURE wasn't Manu, was it -- in fact, I believe it was Kobe and co. who knocked Manu and the Spurs OUT of the playoffs, wasn't it?  Yeah, and I know -- it was Derek Fisher who shot the .4 shot not Kobe -- but if you go back and watch the tape it was because Kobe was being double-teamed that Derek even got the ball.

As for Kobe's lack of dominance in the series -- here is his pathetic average for the Lakers/Spurs 2004 WCF series:
     10 of 22 for 46%
     6.3 reb per game
     5.8 assists per game
     1.66 steals per game
     26 points per game

Pretty pathetic, huh?  I mean he should have shot over 50%, averaged 10 rebounds, 10 assists and 40 points a game, huh?  Of course, you STILL wouldn't think that was dominating -- well, if the player doing it wore purple and gold.

[Guest_Randy]

And the year, 2003 playoffs, was worse (average vs. Spurs):

  Kobe - 43% FG%, 5 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 32.3 points per game

By-the-way, Reality, don't you think it's interesting that a guy who is so incredibly selfish on the court is leading the league in triple-doubles?  Let's see, one is scoring, the other is rebounding, so what would the other be?  Assists!!!  Isn't it amazing -- Kobe is such an incredible player that he can be incredibly selfish on the court and STILL rack up 10+ assists in games!!!  Just imagine if he had teammates who could really shoot!  

[westkoast]

5-0 without Kobe?  The Lakers have yet to win 3 in a row......let alone 5.  LOL @ you making up stats to make Kobe look bad.

You mean 3-1 (4-1 if you count the Cavs game).  They beat GS twice, Cavs, and the Wolves.

Reality, until Manu consistantly scores 25+ points grabs 5 rebounds and dishes out 5 assits year after year, is one of the top defenders at his position each year,  and is the #2 main option pulling weight behind Duncan then they are not on the same level.  You are comparing what the stacked Spurs team is doing right now to what the Lakers with less talent arent doing at this point in time.  Manu is in a similar situation with Duncan right now as Kobe was with Shaq years prior.  Lets see if he can do what Kobe did with a dominate big man.  Then you can compare em.

No, i was also comparing the "stacked" Laker team of 2003 whereupon Kobe certainly did have Shraq.  Tell me of Kobadiahs dominance in that series.  For that matter the .4 Spurs series of last year.  GNob chocked outside shots but Kobadiah sure didnt win that series on his own.  Basically its 1-1.

Repeat, lets see GNob with Tex W controlling the O.  Also go beyond the stats.  What does GNob do for the team.

ps yes i count the Cavs game where the Lakers won with Kobe gone for 3 quarters.  4-1 instead of 5-0.  My bad, no purple n gold undies here.

I think Randy already showed you the stats and shut you up very nicely  

As for Manu with Tex Winter...I dont think he would do as well.  Notice Manu and the rest of the Spurs really do well when Pop lets them freelance.  Manu thrives in being able to do what he wants at any given second.  That is part of what makes Manu good and at the same time makes Pop cringe...his unperdictable play.  The defender just has no idea what hes going to do when he gets the green light and more times than not he gets it done.

Like I said Manu is a very good player and an emerging all star in this league but he is not quite top 5 in the league at this moment.  If I was going to build a team from scratch I would NOT take Manu over Kobe to build my team around.  Notice how not a single Spurs fan has came into this thread to say that Manu is better than Kobe.  Better for the Spurs yes, better player......no.  Manu doesnt post the same numbers let alone play the same level of defense.

[ziggy]

Kobme!

I can't wait till GNob goes triple double on your Blazers.  Oh wait Pop wont allow that.  Well wait till SAS get a real offensive coordinator.
I'll grab a Snickers bar.

Maybe you question should have been Gnob or the Vanilla Gorilla ?  17 points, 16 rebounds, 3 assists and no TO :eek2: .

[JoMal]

Wasn't it Joey V. who mentioned in another thread that at least we on dbodner's forum are not like the posters of FanHome doing their Kobe versus <insert name here> threads every day?

Well Joe, now that you have mentioned it, like magic, just such a thread appears here.

Manu does not play in the same type of offense as Kobe, so what, exactly, is there to compare him to?

If Manu was given the ball on every set play and asked to do something with it, we would be seeing Duncan getting 7.7 points and 20 rebounds (ten offensive) every night, and Tony Parker would be dreaming about Eva Longoria instead of anticipatiing Manu's passes as they zip past his chubby.

But I also see no reason to think he would not be putting up Kobe-like numbers all the time either.

He is a great player with terrific speed. The only problem he has is that he plays in San Antonio, which just happens to have the most complete big man in the NBA today, and just like in LA, their respective coach's thinks the guy with the big name ticket should be the focus of the offense.

The Lakers kept Bryant and shipped out O'Neal (at his request - maybe the Big Aristotle ain't as dumb as he pretends to be) to legitimize his status as "The Man" for the Lakers once and for all. Ball in his hands on every possession; making the play on every possession; look at me, ma, I '"Da Man" now, watch me whup dis pas' for 'nother ass-sist so's Sportscenter will show da world I's gots my own team finally."

Bryant's a good player, but until you stick a Manu Ginobili or similar player directly into the exact role Kobe has with the Lakers, it is ridiculous to compare their offensive stats.  

[Guest_Randy]

Actually, JoMal, while there is definately much to agree on in your post -- there is also much to disagree on.

First, that's exactly what this post was all about -- comparing Manu to Kobe.

Second, while you think that Manu can put forth the same numbers as Kobe (with the same squad Kobe currently has), you also fail to recognize that Manu DOESN'T command double-teams currently, Kobe is at least double-teamed during every game.

Third, I think it's worth mentioning that Manu has had some pretty bad games WHILE playing with the best player in the NBA who IS commanding double-teams.  How many games did Kobe go 1-5 when Shaq was in the line-up?  

Kobe is a better player than Manu is.

As for some of the other stats I used, it was merely to reference the fact that (once again) Reality is not in touch with Reality when it comes to his statements about Kobe or the Lakers.

[JoMal]

But I also see no reason to think he would not be putting up Kobe-like numbers all the time either.

I seem to have included one word too many in that line. I did not mean to imply Manu was Kobe's equal, but that we really can't tell how close he would be to Kobe's ability and to not necessarily assume he would be his match - immediately, at least.

It should be considered that Kobe has been working as the lead player for some time with the Lakers (including when Shaq was there), while Manu has never consistently done that work during his time in the NBA (when he played in South American, however, I believe he did). Kobe's stat's reflect his long-running comfort level in this system just as much as his overall ability is demonstrated when he is running it.  

[Reality]

If Manu was given the ball on every set play and asked to do something with it, we would be seeing Duncan getting 7.7 points and 20 rebounds (ten offensive) every night, and Tony Parker would be dreaming about Eva Longoria instead of anticipatiing Manu's passes as they zip past his chubby.

But I also see no reason to think he would not be putting up Kobe-like numbers all the time either.

He is a great player with terrific speed. The only problem he has is that he plays in San Antonio, which just happens to have the most complete big man in the NBA today, and just like in LA, their respective coach's thinks the guy with the big name ticket should be the focus of the offense.

Bryant's a good player, but until you stick a Manu Ginobili or similar player directly into the exact role Kobe has with the Lakers, it is ridiculous to compare their offensive stats.

rrrrrraaaaaaauuugh.
Kobe scores 25 and 5 therefore he must be better.  Either bow down to the Kobe Idol or remove this man from the temple.

Stuff liked tipped passes and just overall team attitude don't show up in the stat line.  Thats some of what GNob does.  As for GNob following his 48 pt with 12 pts the next night, you wont see him pouting and manipulating to get Tim Dunker run out of San Antone so he can be "Da Boi."

You didn't vote Jomal.  Who would you rather have on your team?
So far its JoeV and I making 2 for GNob.
3 Krishnas doing the expected.

[SPURSX3]

Well, this is not to answer the first post, over who to build around.

I would give my choice to Kobe.  Kobe's game is way ahead of Manu's - dont get me wrong, my second choice, or atleast one my choices that any team would NEED to have to be successful - would be Manu.  He is nto a go to guy yet, not the main man yet, may never be, but the guy has great heart, talent, and is fearless.  The stuff he does out there helps keep our team from having a bad record.  Tim is our main gun, yes, but manu really is a contributer, almost the perfect number 2 guy any coach would want to have.  

Back to Kobe, the man is a leader, he is trying very hard this year to prove he can lead the lakers.  I think he gets too caught up in trying to be the perfect leader and doesnt exactly know when its time to really take over a game like jordan did with the bulls. but he has got what it takes to be a deserving franchise player.  He could have a better crew around him, and in time he will get a better team around him, but dont confuse the single player with the overall teams success.  SA has a solid team all around, without manu we can win, without tim we can win, without tony we can win - the wins might harder to come by, but make no mistake, we can still win.  Its not the case that if tim goes down we fall, we would lose SOME games but i wouldnt expect a tumble down the mountain.  LA on the other hand need players closer to kobe level to play around him, they need to rebuild and get better quality players around him and on the bench, time gets to rest because of our depth, LA doesnt have much to fall back on.  All in all i think LA is doing better than i thought they would be doing by this time.  So Kobe, IMO, is just learning his new role as team leader - teh ONLY team leader that is.  He is the franchise player for LA, and if it were betweeb he and Manu - I would sadly have to choose Kobe.  

[Reality]

Well, this is not to answer the first post, over who to build around.

I would give my choice to Kobe.  Kobe's game is way ahead of Manu's - dont get me wrong, my second choice, or atleast one my choices that any team would NEED to have to be successful - would be Manu.  He is nto a go to guy yet, not the main man yet, may never be, but the guy has great heart, talent, and is fearless.  The stuff he does out there helps keep our team from having a bad record.  Tim is our main gun, yes, but manu really is a contributer, almost the perfect number 2 guy any coach would want to have. 

Back to Kobe, the man is a leader, he is trying very hard this year to prove he can lead the lakers.  I think he gets too caught up in trying to be the perfect leader and doesnt exactly know when its time to really take over a game like jordan did with the bulls. but he has got what it takes to be a deserving franchise player.  He could have a better crew around him, and in time he will get a better team around him, but dont confuse the single player with the overall teams success.  SA has a solid team all around, without manu we can win, without tim we can win, without tony we can win - the wins might harder to come by, but make no mistake, we can still win.  Its not the case that if tim goes down we fall, we would lose SOME games but i wouldnt expect a tumble down the mountain.  LA on the other hand need players closer to kobe level to play around him, they need to rebuild and get better quality players around him and on the bench, time gets to rest because of our depth, LA doesnt have much to fall back on.  All in all i think LA is doing better than i thought they would be doing by this time.  So Kobe, IMO, is just learning his new role as team leader - teh ONLY team leader that is.  He is the franchise player for LA, and if it were betweeb he and Manu - I would sadly have to choose Kobe.

LOL!  Check the stats on LAL minus Kobe.  Along with LAL with Kobe/without Shraq.  Not only this year but the entire Shaq era.  

That having been said I'm all for giving Springfield the rest of this year and all of next year to see what he can do with "his" team.

[Derek Bodner]

Let's see, one is scoring, the other is rebounding, so what would the other be? Assists!!! Isn't it amazing -- Kobe is such an incredible player that he can be incredibly selfish on the court and STILL rack up 10+ assists in games!!!

You know, when I've said that about AI these past few years, people said "assists don't tell the whole story"

[westkoast]

Let's see, one is scoring, the other is rebounding, so what would the other be? Assists!!! Isn't it amazing -- Kobe is such an incredible player that he can be incredibly selfish on the court and STILL rack up 10+ assists in games!!!

You know, when I've said that about AI these past few years, people said "assists don't tell the whole story"

Yea...guys like Reality who watch basketball just to watch it but dont fully understand parts of the game fail to realize that players like AI, Kobe, etc demand so much of the defense's attention that it opens alot of things up for the rest of the team.

Ive watched it happen with AI and Kobe hundreds of times.  They touch the ball, all 5 guys fall back a bit and turn their heads towards them, and then they wait for him to make a move.   Sometimes guys dont even pay attention to their own assignments which is why Kobe is having a good year assist wise.   Guys like Manu DO NOT demand that same amount of attention.

Like I said before...Manu is the better fit for the Spurs but is not the better player of the two.  Kobe's defense and clutch factor put him on a different level at this point in time.