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[Guest]

~this is dbodner

Rick, you're far overvaluing the worth of an extra inch.

[Joe Vancil]

Well this is what separates the good teams from the bad ones.  The ability to find a big man that will really develop into a top-flight center.  It is extremely rare for any team to win consistently without a quality big man.  Only MJ was able to do it, and even he had adequate centers like Cartwright and Wennington who could rebound and defend.

Since MJ, every team that has won had a great big: Shaq or Duncan.  You want to win a championship?  You have to take a shot and pray the player develops.  Most of the time you end up with Ewe Blap!  Remember him?

Most really tall guys don't develop the coordination to be a top-flight NBA center.  And even if they have the coordination, they don't have the capacity to learn the game.  And sometimes they can't handle the pressures of the NBA.  Roy Tarpley could have been a great one, but couldn't stay away from the drugs.

Dalembert had a monster game tonight, with most of his points comming after he picked up his fifth foul a few minutes into the third quarter.  How's this for a box score:

11 of 13 2 of 2 for 24 pts.  6-offensive and 10 defensive for 16 boards, 4 blocks 2 turnovers.  

Can't trade that for anything less than a really exceptional player.  Since he is a 7 footer, a team that needs one might be willing to part with such a player.  Joe Johnson for Dalembert would be nuts.  Amare Stoudemire and Joe Johnson might make me trade him if I was Billy K.  And as great as it would be to have those two players,  chances are I would say no!  Great bigs are very rare and they only come around like every 5-10 years.  Think of how dominant Shaq has been in the past few years, or Chamberlain in his prime.  This is why KG and Duncan and Shaq and J.O'Neil get the big bucks.


"Maybe the scouts should start developing tests/tasks that test how players will make large leaps from high school to the nba or even the college to the nba. With how mental this game really is Im curious if they already do, do this when scouting players."

I'm sure they do, but it's not an exact science.  You just can't tell.  I thought Todd MacCullough would be a serviceable center.  Not a great one, but good enough.  And what happens?  A rare degeneterive disease stops his career before it gets started.  He's a radio broadcaster for the Sixers now.  Ces't la vie....

Rickortreat,

     Is it just that you have something against me, or what?  Bringing up both Bill Wennington and Uwe Blab in the same freakin' post?  Did I just not suffer enough in that draft without you bringing back those bad memories, and all the shattered dreams I had about how surely either Wennington or Blab would develop into the center my Mavericks needed?

     We needed one serviceable center, and we drafted 14 feet of BUM.  Stack the two one on top of the other, and they'd still be worthless.

     And is that the worst of it?  Why no.  Wennington goes on to haunt me...helping the freakin' Chicago Bulls beat MY JAZZ!

     Thank you OH SO MUCH for reminding me.
 

[rickortreat]

Sorry Joe,

Didn't realize you were a Maverick fan too.  I was a season ticket holder down there when this happened.  Went down to practive to see our two new 7 footers.  Dick Motta had Dereck Harper show the guys a simple dribble drill.   Just dribble the ball in a figure 8 in and around your feet.  Klutzy Ewe lost the ball continuously.  I knew then that we had a problem.

Bill Wennington was a cool guy.  I met him and we had the chance to talk a bit.  His wife was really sweet, and only about 5-7".

The real killer for me was Roy Tarpley.  That guy had talent.  Saw him shoot a no look ball at the basket while he was faceing away from it, and it went right in.  I thought he would put them over the top, until he got suspended for drugs.  

And all the Mavs really needed was a center, and they could have had a legitimate shot at a title. Maguire was an amazing player, and between him, Harper, Rolando Blackman, Dale Ellis and Detlef and Sam Perkins a decent Center would have gotten them past the Lakers.

[WayOutWest]

They had a decent center in Donaldson, he was able to push and shove Kareem quite alot.  Big beefy guy unfortunately he was injury prone.   In the one year when they took L.A. to seven games he was healthy but they still couldn't do it.  It was funny watching Magic trying to guard Roy.  At first he just looked at Worthy like "isn't that your man?"

Was his name Donaldson or was that Portlands chubby center?  I remeber the muscular Dallas center but I'm not positive about his name.

[Guest_Randy]

Wasn't it Sam Donaldson?  Is that right?  Tarpley, I think was the Roy -- man what an incredibly gifted player who decided to throw it all away time after time after time.  I remember SEVERAL times when Dallas Police gave the guy every break they could (picking him up for DUI at HIGH speeds and rather than booking him, taking him home).  

I remember Donaldson being big -- just a huge guy but not all that muscular -- just big and wide (strong too but not all that defined -- more of a Lamebier kind of guy).

[jn]

James Donaldson was the Dallas center.  Duckworth was blob up in Portland.

Uwe Blab.  :nonono:  

[Joe Vancil]

Dalembert for Joe Johnson?  If I'm PHOENIX, there's no way I do this.  Swingmen are a dime-a-dozen;  so are centers with "potential."  This is the kind of deal that DESPERATE teams make - not division leaders.  (And yes, I'm aware that Philadelphia is a division leader.  And I think they're the perfect example of why I was opposed to going to 6 divisions.  As it stands right now, they'll get a number 3 seed - AND HOME-COURT ADVANTAGE, BECAUSE IT'S THE FIRST ROUND - with a losing record - the worst record of all 16 teams to make the playoffs.  But I digress.)  

Dalembert mentioned in the same breath as Amare Stoudemire?  Talk about over-valuing potential.  Not only is Stoudemire a better player - PLAYING CENTER - but he's YOUNGER, with MORE UPSIDE.

Dalembert for Joe Johnson *AND* Amare Stoudemire?  Heck, why don't you just ask them to throw in Nash, Richardson, and Marion while they're at it.  Jerry Colangelo is probably sore enough after prostate surgery...no need to try and make it worse for the poor guy.

In order for Phoenix to deal Joe Johnson, they need to get a reasonably good big man and a quality back-up point guard.  Plus, Phoenix has traded much of their depth away to get Jimmy Jackson, so they don't have a lot to throw in.

What MIGHT have been a fair deal would have been Stephen Hunter, Joe Johnson, and a conditional draft pick for Dalembert and Eric Snow.

And the scary thing is I'm NOT a Joe Johnson fan, and I *AM* a Samuel Dalembert fan!  

If a Joe Johnson for Samuel Dalembert deal is offered, I refuse it if I'm Phoenix - because it's robbery - and I refuse it if I'm Philadelphia - because it won't help me win a championship, although it will help me win games.

If an Amare Stoudemire for Samuel Dalembert deal was offered - straight up - I jump on it if I'm Philadelphia, and I refuse it if I'm Phoenix.  If it's Dalembert and two first round draft picks for Stoudemire, I jump on it if I'm Philadelphia and refuse it if I'm Phoenix.  Dalembert and the Philly roster minus Iverson isn't worth Stoudemire.

Right now, Phoenix is in contention - despite their inability to beat their former whipping boys of San Antonio, in a strange reversal of fortune.  Right now, Philadelphia is on the fence as to whether they're a playoff or a lottery team.  I think the Philadelphia team has some real problems:  power forward, depth of compatible talent (rather than depth of similar talent), lack of depth at point guard, and a very mediocre coach.  Philadelphia is where it is based on the will and ability of Allen Iverson - and given the punishment this guy takes, at 29 turning 30 in June, he's going to start showing age soon.  When that happens, Philadelphia tanks unless someone stands out;  Iguodala seems to be the person most likely to develop into that player, but is he a top 10 kind of player in the league, like Iverson is?  I have my doubts.  I think the future looks brighter for Phoenix.

Philadelphia has a lot of similar talent.  They need to deal some of it for the pieces that they're missing.  But their similar talent is mostly POTENTIAL, and potential generally doesn't get you much in return.  And if it's not dealt, much of that potential will be wasted potential, because I firmly believe that you can only develop so much of the same kind of potential on a team.

 

[Derek Bodner]

AND HOME-COURT ADVANTAGE, BECAUSE IT'S THE FIRST ROUND

They changed it this year joe.  home court is now based solely on record, even in the first round.  seed's are just done for matchup purposes.

[Joe Vancil]

What - no love for Brad Davis on those Maverick teams?  What an unselfish, underrated point guard.  Loved the guy.  An ex-Laker, I believe.

Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins, James Donaldson, Brad Davis, and Rolando Blackman, backed up by Dale Ellis, Roy Tarpley, Kurt Nimphius, and Derek Harper.  I loved that Dallas team.  (This was before Detlef Schrempf got there.  Schrempf replaced Dale Ellis, and Harper became the starter at point soon afterward.)

Tarpley was a sad story of unbelievable wasted talent.  Unbelieveable how a person could waste that kind of opportunity.  How could you live with yourself after throwing away such a golden opportunity?  It's not like he was faced with a difficult choice, and made the wrong one;  I've never understood that whole thing.

Derek Harper dribbling out the clock against the Lakers.

Rolando Blackman getting robbed for the All-Star MVP he should have won.

Normally, I'd just blame Skander for cursing this team, except he wasn't a basketball fan back then.

Some of the time was under Dick Motta, some was under John MacLeod - two coaches I adored.

Gotta say - it's so cool that folks around here remember this sort of stuff rather than simply doing the "who's better - Kobe or <insert player here>" that I see on FanHome.

And speaking of Rolando Blackman - where's the poster that goes by that name?  Need to get him in on this.
 

[Joe Vancil]

AND HOME-COURT ADVANTAGE, BECAUSE IT'S THE FIRST ROUND

They changed it this year joe.  home court is now based solely on record, even in the first round.  seed's are just done for matchup purposes.

Did they?  I didn't realize that.

My bad.
 

[jn]

Joe,

And to go really deep let's not forget the Mav's Jay "Big Daddy" Vincent.

Those were fun teams.  What a player Perkins was back then.  Sometimes the memory of him being a creaky three point shooter with the Lakers clouds up the memory of how smooth he was early in his career.  

[Joe Vancil]

Joe,

And to go really deep let's not forget the Mav's Jay "Big Daddy" Vincent.

Those were fun teams.  What a player Perkins was back then.  Sometimes the memory of him being a creaky three point shooter with the Lakers clouds up the memory of how smooth he was early in his career.

I couldn't remember if Vincent was on that team that I liked so much or not.  I was under the impression that he wasn't - having already been dealt.  I know I'm missing one guard - it might be Tom Sluby - but I get the feeling I'm missing a big man as well, and I can't remember who it is.  It might be Vincent.
I know the starters were Aguirre, Perkins, Donaldson, Davis/Harper and Blackman, though.

 

[JoMal]

To get drafted up high, out of high school or college, being 7 feet tall or better seems to be the ticket to untold wealth in the NBA, regardless of whether you ever pan out as a legitimate player.

Then you have someone like Brad Miller who doesn't get drafted at all and goes to two all star games in different conferences. Go figure.

But who is really talking about a trade involving Phoenix and Philadelphia? The GM's of these teams or just us?

There is no way an Eastern Conference team who has a warm body that stands 7 feet tall and doesn't see the basketball as a potential 'dirty bomb' once it reaches his hands, will trade that guy for another swingman. The Eastern Conference teams have to incorporate any kind of center into their rotations to combat the other grind-it-out teams they mostly will face.  

The Sixers are constantly tinkering with their roster, trying to find the right combination to surround Iverson, so making a move before the trade deadline would not surprise me. But if they trade their only legit center for another medium body, what chance do they have? You may ask, "What chance do they have anyway?", but they will really tank if they give up Dalembert. He is not as good as other Eastern centers, but he is at least legitimate.

Apparently, many out there feel the Suns are not real contenders for a title, regardless of their scoring potential, without a presence in the middle. That may be true, but from what I have seen, they are not real contenders for a title if Nash is out or ineffective. Most centers are just large lumps clogging the lane without a decent point guard.

What was Stoudemire's stats when Nash was out recently? I know in two of them, he never got to twenty points and in one only scored 8. Nash comes back and he is back in the thirties.

[Guest_Randy]

What - no love for Brad Davis on those Maverick teams?  What an unselfish, underrated point guard.  Loved the guy.  An ex-Laker, I believe.

Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins, James Donaldson, Brad Davis, and Rolando Blackman, backed up by Dale Ellis, Roy Tarpley, Kurt Nimphius, and Derek Harper.  I loved that Dallas team.  (This was before Detlef Schrempf got there.  Schrempf replaced Dale Ellis, and Harper became the starter at point soon afterward.)

Tarpley was a sad story of unbelievable wasted talent.  Unbelieveable how a person could waste that kind of opportunity.  How could you live with yourself after throwing away such a golden opportunity?  It's not like he was faced with a difficult choice, and made the wrong one;  I've never understood that whole thing.

Derek Harper dribbling out the clock against the Lakers.

Rolando Blackman getting robbed for the All-Star MVP he should have won.

Normally, I'd just blame Skander for cursing this team, except he wasn't a basketball fan back then.

Some of the time was under Dick Motta, some was under John MacLeod - two coaches I adored.

Gotta say - it's so cool that folks around here remember this sort of stuff rather than simply doing the "who's better - Kobe or <insert player here>" that I see on FanHome.

And speaking of Rolando Blackman - where's the poster that goes by that name?  Need to get him in on this.

I don't remember Brad Davis ever being a Laker -- I will have to look to make sure but I certainly don't remember ever watching him play for LA.  

Dallas had a great team in those days -- a lot of fun to watch (the middle was their only problem -- Tarpley was the answer to that but he never quite reached and kept his potential -- drugs is the obvious reason).  

It was in Dallas that I had great seats to see Magic play (after the showtime years) and then found out that he was "sick with the flu" -- of course, we all know the truth now.  Very disappointing.

Never liked Aguire though -- of course, then he went to Detroit to play with the Bad Boys (always like Vinnie "the Microwave" Johnson though -- loved watching that guy play -- looked like a Bradley tank on legs).

[Guest_Randy]

Oh, I forgot to mention "Kobe is da bomb."  Can't believe I left that out!