More Hot Rumors

[Derek Bodner]

Jim Jackson traded to Phx for Lampe, Vhroman, and filler.

Set to possibly open up Joe Johnson for Samuel Dalembert.

I would LOVE to get Joe Johnson in a Sixers uniform.

[rickortreat]

There's no way we'd give up Dalembert for a 6'7" swing man.  Like we don't have enough of those types already!  

[Derek Bodner]

we might have a lot of swingmen, but none outside of Iguodala who can ever step up to be a starter.

Johnson could be our starter at the 2/3 for the next decade.  I can't say I see Sam starting, without a shadow of a doubt, for O'brien ever.

[rickortreat]

Well, Sam has been something of a dissapointment.  He has so much potential, but I infer from his play that he's not the sharpest tack in the box.  Dalmembert may never reach the level I first anticipated, but he's still a player of value.

He is a shot-blocker and a rebounder.  He just has to refrain from putting the ball on the floor, and work on his postioning and put-backs for his points.  Iverson loves to throw the ball to him for an easy one.  He's a big target and he has a pretty decent shot.

It's a fact of life that big men are harder to find and are therefore worth more.  There are lots of 6'7" swingmen out there.  They used to be the premier players in the NBA, from Doc to MJ to Kobe.  But that's a little short nowadays.  T-Mac and his cousin are the right size for swing men in the NBA now.

You don't think John Salmons or Willie Green could be a full-time starter? They both seem to have good potential to me.  Even though he plays forward now, I'd like Kenny Thomas to play some 2 now and then, IMO he has the ability, depending on who he's matched up against.  It will never happen with all the other 6'7" players we have, none of whom can go to the rack like KT.  

O'Brien is going to have to figure out which ones he wants to keep and which ones he lets Billy trade.  We already have Kedrick Brown, Josh Davis, Andre (Who isn't going anywhere) Korver, McKie (who's going to retire sooner or later) Kevin Ollie, Glen Robinson and Corliss Williamson at 6'7"  Now, I could see us tradeing away one or two of them to get Joe Johnson, but not a Center when he's really the only big we have.  

[Derek Bodner]

T-Mac and his cousin are the right size for swing men in the NBA now.

JJ's 6'8", with longer arms than vince.

Kenny at the 2?  No.

sure, you can TRY to trade Willie Green or John Salmons for a future all-star, but it won't happen

[rickortreat]

Didn't know that.  According to NBA.com he's 6'7".  How about both Willie and John, or Kevin Ollie and Josh Brown and one of those.  

On second thought, I'd rather see us shed these guys for an opportunity to get Elden Campbell.  

As it is, I like Dalembert and Marc Jackson up front, with Kenny, Andre and AI.  It's a luxury we don't have often, since we don't have another big to come in and spell Sam.  That's pretty important, since Sam gets into foul trouble a lot and right now B. Skinner is injured.  

How about sending Big Dog and one of the other swing men for Joe Johson?  If he's as good as you say, he's certainly worth going after, but not at the expense of a big.  

Right now if you were Billy, wouldn't you be more concerned with shoring up the front line?  

[rickortreat]

And another thing, didn't Joe Johson play for Jim O'Brien in Boston before he was traded to the Suns?  

He's been in the league for 4 years and shoots .435 from the field this year.  Is he really capable of being an All-star?  Would you be willing to trade Andre for him?
   

[Derek Bodner]

Sorry Rick, you're way off on value.

Why would the Suns trade a young sg/sf on the verge of all-star appearances for two that can't crack a starting lineup?

JJ's already better than Robinson.  He's already 5x the player of either Willie or Salmons, with more potential.  This kid's a solid #2 scorer at worst, #1 option at best.  He's got Paul Pierce written all over him.  I don't know how you expect to get him with bench players at the same position.

You have to look at it from both sides.

[WayOutWest]

There's no way we'd give up Dalembert for a 6'7" swing man.  Like we don't have enough of those types already!

The discussion should have stopped right here.

[rickortreat]

Had a chance to actually see him play for a while last night.  Very impressive.  Great outside shooting touch, excellent court vision, and very good jusdgement.  Saw very few errors.

But I also saw a Suns teams that is loaded with payers.  Stoudamire is better, and so is Marion.  Both of them incredible talents and All Stars if not now, than only because they're being overlookied in Phoenix.  I didn't catch the end of the game, since I saw the Suns pull away from the Spurs in the third and figured they were beaten.  Since the Suns lost I can only imagine what happened, but to be honest I thought the game was over.

At any rate, people suggesting that Nash in the MVP are whacked.  The reason the Suns stuggled without Nash is that they have no one else who can play the point.  A point guard is integral to any decent team, or rather someone who can perform the duties of a point, namely bringing the ball up the court and distributing it to the inside players, running plays, etc.  Eric Snow could run that team and rack up double digit assists!  They are loaded at the other positions and so athletic that they really didn't seem to need a center.  TD must have been a big part of the Spurs comeback along with Genobli.

However, the Suns need the Sixers have.  Depth.  According to the play by play of the game, the Spurs came back by playing four guards and Duncan.  Having Green and Salmons on their bench might have been allthey needed to put them over the top against SA.

Joe Johnson is not a point and won't ever be.  A trade for Salmons and Willie Green would be a good move for the Suns in the future, as they develop into decent point guards.  Of course this assumes that they develop into points, which IMO is one of the toughest positons to master.  Any player under 6' is a defensive liability these days, but there are a number of them in the league because the bigger players lack the coordination and skills necessary.  They alll want to be like Mike, ignoring that every Bulls team that won had a passable point guard on the court.

The Suns don't need Joe Johnson, now that they've added Jim Jackson to the team.  If the Suns were smart they would look for a decent point to back up Nash, they should have gone after Speedy when the Sixers let him go! But as I said they also need depth and the Sixers have a load of players that are good enough to be role players.

It's also not realistic to compare a 4 year player to a rookie and a three year player who doesn't get to play because Jim O'Brien can make up his mind!

 

[Derek Bodner]

Rick, I'm beginning to wonder how much you watch the Sixers.  You called someone Josh Brown above, that should have set off some triggers.  I'm still wondering if you're talking about josh davis or kedrick brown.

Willie Green a point?  You haven't been watching these past 2 years (he's not a rookie).  The man still doesn't know what a pass is.  John Salmons?  He's now started under 3 coaches, don't blame O'brien.  He's not good enough, but he's gotten his chances.

The Suns aren't going to trade Joe Johnson for a backup point (and, unless you're talking about Kevin Ollie, we don't have one either, Salmons and Green certainly aren't).  There are better and more prudent means of doing this.  The suns need one major piece, a center.  That's the only way they'd trade JJ.

[rickortreat]

Point is the hardest postion to learn in the NBA, and it takes time and experience to develop into a good one.  Most young players don't develop those skills in college, and the points in the NCAA usually aren't drafted.  Unless they're an outrageous talent like Magic was, they take years to develop.  How many years was Eric Snow in the league before he became a solid point?  O'Brien doesn't stick with any of them long enough to develop them.  

Admittedly, when you're trying to win games you want to go with your best, and now that Iverson is the point, there's not too many minutes available at that spot.  But you can't conclude their incapable of paying the postion if they haven't had the opportunity to develop.  Both Green and Salmons can penetrate. As far as their passing goes, you need your other players to move without the ball, something the Sixers don't do well.  (It would also help if Dalembert knew how to help clear a path to the hoop)

As I wrote earlier, it's difficult to know if they're capable of playing the postion.  Clearly Billy King thought so, or he wouldn't have gotten rid of Snow.  Even if he was counting on Iverson to be the point, no GM would go through a season with only one if he could do anything about it.

Not watch them?  How many minutes have Kedrick Brown and Josh Davis played? Most nights they don't even get in.  

[Derek Bodner]

Point is the hardest postion to learn in the NBA, and it takes time and experience to develop into a good one.

It's a mindset rick.  Willie Green has never played the point.  He doesn't think like a point.  He's a scorer.  That's his game, his strength's, and his mentality.

Eric Snow was traded to move AI to the point, so Willie Green could step in as the starter at the 2, not the point.

And, as I said, "IF" this guy's are points (and they're not) you don't trade your best perimeter player for a backup point.  You acquire them through other means.

[rickortreat]

Your dead on about that, a great point guard is a player who cultivates the abilities necessary to be one.  They are made not born, and it requires a great deal of patience to turn a player into one, and many simply lack the talent and ability to become a good one, let alone a great one.

Iverson resisted being a point, insisting on being a 2 guard.  But he does a great job at the point, now that he's accepted the role.  

So, the player has to want to be a point, because it's harder and requires greater discipline.  But considering how valuable they are, and integral to a team's success, I would think that more players would want to become one to enhance their carreer prospects.  

Clearly, the Sixers thought that out of this group of players that one or more of them would develop into a point, else they wouldn't have traded away so many of the points they did.  O'Brien allows them to play, but not long enough to become proficient at it.  

But they are all serviceable players, although none of them has the qualties I saw in Joe Johnson last night.  

Centers are even harder, because you can't coach size.  Phoenix needs one and so do the Sixers, which is why I said they would not trade Dalembert.  Phoenix also needs depth, which the Sixers do have.  If you say that they won't part with Johnson to get that depth, and insist on finding a team willing to trade a Center, then I can't dissagree. But IMO, Phoenix is really, really close to being a great team. A contender for the Championship and their GM has to do what he can to help them make a run for the title.  

Would getting two or three of the Sixers young players put them over the top if they loose Johnson?  Ultimately thats what it comes down to.  And I don't know, but I think it would help the Suns to have some bench depth and fast.  Who else has that many serviceable players?  Or, do you think I'm overvaluing our bench?  

[Derek Bodner]

Or, do you think I'm overvaluing our bench?

and undervaluing johnson.

Neither of them could replace Johnson.  And I don't think either of them could replace even Jacobson, whom they just traded.

They acquired another swingman so they could trade one of their current ones for a big, and still have a serviciable swing coming off the bench.  I don't think they have any interest in more swingmen.