OT: Fahrenheit 9/11 *Explicit Content/Cursing*

[SPURSX3]

I haven't seen it yet, but I suspect it's a hatchet job.  Frankly I can't think of anyone more deserving than this traitorous, lying stinking weasel thief we have for a President.

But I resent the fact that with so much damming evidence out there, Moore takes the easy way out by distorting the facts and limiting your access to all the facts on the issues he delineats.

The truth about Bush and his familly is worse- much worse than what Moore reveals.  Therefore he has done us all a disservice.

There is enough legitimate hard evidence out there about Bush's malfeasense to impeach him, and derail his traitorous plans to undermine America.

Try to do some reasearch on the Patriot acts (sic) and compare them with the rights defined in the Constituion and the Bill of Rights.  I don't know about you, but I think the America I grew up in has been destroyed.  :angry:

when was "your america" Rick?  vietnam?  panama? cold war? afghanistan 1? ....  this is the same america it was before as far as politics go I think, diff pres, diff war...

[rickortreat]

The difference between this America and the past versions is that although there has allways been corruption and dishonesty.  Our worst agression was directed at foreigners, and sometimes for legitimate reasons.  But we were all in it together, and we all had a say in it, or at least I could feel that way.

There was no debate prior to the war in Iraq, even though the ability to declare war is suppossed to be reserved for the Congress.  A lot of Americans got sent over there to do something that was completly illegitimate.  There was no real justification for going into Iraq, we wnt because our President wanted it.

There has never been an admistration that has lied to the American people about the actual state of our own economy, the true rate of inflation, the true employment rate, the velocity of money in the country and our cumulative public and private debt.  Never mind the political dynamics that have resulted in the dismantling of American manufacturing, so a bunch of Chinese could start living in the 20th century on our backs.

There has never been such a reason to lie as today, since the truth if widely known would be politically unpalatible.  I am very afraid that our independence and freedoms are under a final assault that will send our country into the totalitarian abyss.  We are being betrayed in a more outrageous way than at any other time in our Nations history.  And, that's saying alot.

[Ted]

Who's giving the media a pass?

Rick, you might want to lay off the "from the wilderness" stuff. You're starting to sound like you're cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Here's another good source of "truth", "fact", etc. It's probably just about as real and credible as the from the wilderness stuff.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/

Enjoy you dittoheads.

Another good source of "fact" is debkafile at www.debka.com. They're the ones who were saying the whole time that Saddam and his WMDs had fled to Syria.

Some people will believe any pile of crap if it agrees with how they feel at the moment.

 

[westkoast]

Who's giving the media a pass?

Rick, you might want to lay off the "from the wilderness" stuff. You're starting to sound like you're cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Here's another good source of "truth", "fact", etc. It's probably just about as real and credible as the from the wilderness stuff.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/

Enjoy you dittoheads.

Another good source of "fact" is debkafile at www.debka.com. They're the ones who were saying the whole time that Saddam and his WMDs had fled to Syria.

Some people will believe any pile of crap if it agrees with how they feel at the moment.

You are bashing Moore for not being a good journalist yet you seem to have a bigger problem with Michael Moore's 2 hour film than you do with the last year of one-sided bad journalism from our media.  There method's are quite similar.  Just on opposite ends of the issue.

Moore is going to out of his way to bash Bush and our media is going out of their way to sugar coat the funny business behind the scenes and really what is going on in Iraq.  Perfect example is the pulling down of Sadaam's statue that was covered like no other.  One of the best PR stunts our country has seen.  Id like to know where you buy American flags in Iraq.

[rickortreat]

There are a lot more sources than from the wilderness.  But remember I'm trying to learn and understand this stuff to make decisions about the allocation of my assets.  So, I look at everything and trust nothing without verification.  I'm far more interested in actual facts- I'll draw my own conclusions.

So here's a real fact for you to chew on:

http://jessel.100megsfree3.com/pmi.gif

Now you tell me, is this the sign of a healthy economy, one where it's expanding too rapidly where a rise of interest rates would arrest the inflation?  Or is this the sign of a failing economy where price increases are a result of the decline in the value of the Dollars in your pocket?
 

[JoMal]

I agree 100% about calling Moore's latest film a 'movie', not a documentary. Otherwise, you should call Oliver Stone's JFK a documentary as well. Stone could easily have portraited a less broad conspiracy regarding Kennedy's assasination without causing the mockery his film created. He was probably right about a conspiracy happening somewhere in there, but his approach was not objective.

Neither is Moore. None of his films are created with objectivity as a goal, though I have not and probably will not see any of them. Moore just does not interest me all that much. I have heard him interviewed and seen him on Politically Incorrect, and frankly he comes across as a snitty little snob.

While I understand what Joe is implying by saying there are not two sides to every story, only the real FACTS that have to be separated from opinions, I also think he understands that even the basic FACTS can be interpreted differently by different people, thus allowing bias to enter into the facts themselves.

But I have to disagree about where opinion might takes us. Opposing opinions provide us with those alternative interpretations of facts that may allow others to better understand the whole story. While Moore is clearly expressing his own opinion regarding the "facts" of the war, we really do not need him to tell us that what the U.S. government is telling the American people about the Iraqi war, through their own media mechanisms, can not be the whole truth. Moore is a condescending jerk for doing that, IMO, but the alternative voice has to be heard, regardless of the source.

Even Joe's examples of "slanted and biased" agendas, like those of the KKK or abortion clinic bombers, were started by "reasonable" people who felt strongly about their cause, unreasonable though they seem to the rest of us (I hope). What "slanted and biased" also got us, Joe, was the U.S. Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independance.

It also got us 9/11, and the War in Iraq. What Joe should have mentioned is that slanted and biased opinions often put the rest of us in the middle ground dodging bombs and bullets.

I saw the British BBC coverage of the War in Iraq while in England this month. Without the sugarcoating that American media seems destined to bore us naive U.S. peons with, I got a much clearer picture of an alternative slant and bias to what is happening over there. No surprise, America is getting shanked by other Western countries over our bullying them to comply with our standard. The Brits are on the verge of ousting Tony Blair, though most of them like him very much. But he is now looked upon as Bush's lap dog. (A poll said 68% of respondents thought of him as George Dubya's "poodle"). They want Great Britain's troops out of Iraq pronto. The people I talked to all asked basically the same question -

"WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU IGNORAMUS'S THINKING, VOTING THAT MORON INTO OFFICE?".

To say they think Bush is stupid is an insult to stupid people. And they are afraid as to what else Bush might do being in charge of the only super power left. He is seen as throwing his weight around, armtwisting allies, and threatening others to get America what he wants, which to them appears to be to pad the pockets of select corporations and control the oil of Iraq.

Now, if Moore had done one of his "documentaries" on the public opinion of Bush as seen from non-American U.S. allies, we may be on to something that would be worth seeing.

[Ted]

Damn, I better go buy some gold! Good thing I've got the root cellar stocked. Best go buy some more 12 gauge shells to keep WoW and his littlun's from raiding my stores.

Seriously, I don't doubt that you do your homework Rick. But you're not the only one doing your homework. My bro, who is a Northwestern finance and econ MBA and up until this year the top Far East analyst for Saloman Smith Barney has done his research and sees things very differently than you do. But then again, I'm not sure his political feelings enter into his analysis of the U.S. economy.

So don't take it personally when I don't completely buy into what you say, especially after I hear you call the President who is supposedly responsible for the current state of the economy "a traitorous lying stinking weasel thief." Most analysts don't preface their objective economic analyses with such a preamble.

[Ted]

You are bashing Moore for not being a good journalist yet you seem to have a bigger problem with Michael Moore's 2 hour film than you do with the last year of one-sided bad journalism from our media.  There method's are quite similar.  Just on opposite ends of the issue.

Moore is going to out of his way to bash Bush and our media is going out of their way to sugar coat the funny business behind the scenes and really what is going on in Iraq.  Perfect example is the pulling down of Sadaam's statue that was covered like no other.  One of the best PR stunts our country has seen.  Id like to know where you buy American flags in Iraq.

I don't agree with you at all westkoast.

Almost all of what Moore says in the movie is old news, already been reported. Who reported it?

Rather than calling the media biased toward the sunny side of the Iraq war, I'd say it is more biased to the dark side of it. Where are all of the stories about how schools, hospitals, and infrastructures are being rebuilt? Where are the stories about the Iraqis who are grateful to the Coalition because the no longer fear ending up in a mass grave? Where are the stories about the Shi'ite majority who will now be able to have representation in a new government? Where are the stories about the Kurds in northern Iraq who were starving before Coalition soldiers started dropping rations. These are some stories that actually put a tiny glimmer of positive light on the war, but you don't see them. You have to listen to some conservative crackpot like Limbaugh or Savage to hear it. (Note: I AM NOT saying I think the positives of this war outweigh the negatives. The jury is still out on that for me. But why can't we at least hear about them?)

All we hear from the major media outlets is how many have died, and who's been kidnapped or beheaded. That's the dark side of the war. And trust me, if Peter Jennings gets proof that Bush knew there were no WMDs and he deliberately lied about it, you know damn well he'll report it.

Wait a minute, I guess when it comes down to it, I do agree with you. The media, just like Moore, has done a major hack job on this war. Reporting only what it wants to, and ignoring the rest.

[jn]

Ted I'm with you on the "traitorous lying stinking weasel thief" part.  I have absolutely no reason to believe Bush has body odor.  

X3 I think that Nike bit was in Roger and Me.  It's been a while since I've seen it.  The main bit I remember was the garden party thrown by some of Detroit's uber rich old money crowd where they paid laid off auto workers to wear costumes from "The Great Gatsby" and stand perfectly still in the middle of the party.  I guess mannequins weren't good enough and they had to find a way to really humiliate the unemployed.  

[rickortreat]

Ted, I don't take is personally at all.  I expect you to think for yourself.  From your writing it appears you do a pretty good job of that!

Wouldn't mind the opportunity to share some thoughts with your brother about what he thinks is comming down the road.

Gold isn't a bad idea, but the entire economic system is in the control of people who are oppossed to Gold, and want no competition for their fiat currency.  Although I believe that on a legitimate basis Gold should be at a much higher price now, the fact that it isn't  suggests that they are well in control.  It's only when people loose faith in their currency  that Gold becomes a worthwhile asset to hold.  And, not only are we not there yet, I have to question when people will get to that point where they start to put a portion of their savings into Gold.

I will say that the entire capitalization of the Gold market is so small by comparison with the capitalization of Microsoft, that it won't take much to make the price soar.

Bush IS a lying stinking weasel thief.  But I "felt" that before he was even elected.  Now, I have some facts to back it up.  In truth, most of our leaders are LSWT's but Bush is so blatant in what he's doing, that not only am I angry with him, I'm actualy more angry with the rest of us for just taking what's happening with our country and not standing up for what is right.  I'm not even talking about the goverment here.  I'm talking about the people who's job it is to make sure the govt. is accountable to the constitution and to us.  The media is the first on the list- for not reporting what's really happening.  But I was a reporter once upon a time.  I got very dissalusioned in America when I would write a story that should get the public angry and the public didn't even care.

There's a lot we take for granted in the US, with regard to our personal freedoms and rights that just aren't there anymore.  If the founding fathers were able to time warp to the present day, they'd assess the situation and start another revolution. I'm thinking about leaving the country, I feel it abandoned me a long time ago.  :cry:  Only problem is, I wouldn't know where to go.  


 :eek2:  

[Ted]

Ted I'm with you on the "traitorous lying stinking weasel thief" part.  I have absolutely no reason to believe Bush has body odor.  

I don't know though. He was pretty dang sweaty in some of those golf shots.

Oh, that reminds me.

Man I can't believe he said that! "We have been through a terrible tragedy less than two weeks ago. We must protect our land. We must stop terrorism. Thank you . . . Now watch this drive."

What a fricking moron. Can you imagine what his aids were thinking when they heard him say that.

Aid #1: "Oh sh*t."
Aid #2: "What?"
Aid #1: "I said 'Oh sh*t'"
Aid #2: "Yeah me too."
Aid #1: "Well lets go get our backup shorts and slacks."
Aid #2: "Third time this week."
Aid #1: "Better get used to it."

[westkoast]

You are bashing Moore for not being a good journalist yet you seem to have a bigger problem with Michael Moore's 2 hour film than you do with the last year of one-sided bad journalism from our media.  There method's are quite similar.  Just on opposite ends of the issue.

Moore is going to out of his way to bash Bush and our media is going out of their way to sugar coat the funny business behind the scenes and really what is going on in Iraq.  Perfect example is the pulling down of Sadaam's statue that was covered like no other.  One of the best PR stunts our country has seen.  Id like to know where you buy American flags in Iraq.

I don't agree with you at all westkoast.

Almost all of what Moore says in the movie is old news, already been reported. Who reported it?

Rather than calling the media biased toward the sunny side of the Iraq war, I'd say it is more biased to the dark side of it. Where are all of the stories about how schools, hospitals, and infrastructures are being rebuilt? Where are the stories about the Iraqis who are grateful to the Coalition because the no longer fear ending up in a mass grave? Where are the stories about the Shi'ite majority who will now be able to have representation in a new government? Where are the stories about the Kurds in northern Iraq who were starving before Coalition soldiers started dropping rations. These are some stories that actually put a tiny glimmer of positive light on the war, but you don't see them. You have to listen to some conservative crackpot like Limbaugh or Savage to hear it. (Note: I AM NOT saying I think the positives of this war outweigh the negatives. The jury is still out on that for me. But why can't we at least hear about them?)

All we hear from the major media outlets is how many have died, and who's been kidnapped or beheaded. That's the dark side of the war. And trust me, if Peter Jennings gets proof that Bush knew there were no WMDs and he deliberately lied about it, you know damn well he'll report it.

Wait a minute, I guess when it comes down to it, I do agree with you. The media, just like Moore, has done a major hack job on this war. Reporting only what it wants to, and ignoring the rest.

Thats what I was trying to get at Ted.  Although like some of the other posters I am not the greatest at getting my point directly across unless I am using sarcasm.   I rush when trying to get my point across because I'm busy but cannot seem to pry myself away from this board when everyone is jumping in on a topic.  What Im really trying to say that for the most part is that both sides, Moore and the media, do a good job of showing what they want people to see and a poor job when it comes to giving us the whole story.  If it wasnt for the incident in the prison we wouldnt have seen a huge bum rush of "negative" news about whats going on over there.  For the longest time we were seeing alot of only the more positive things and would get brief one paragraph articles on something negative.  I heard about the Sadaam statue for 3 days straight.  When our helicopters were going down I was hearing brief statements and reading one paragraph articles with very vague explanations as why they went down.

JoMaL, sure maybe him pointing some of this out is a little condesending...but you do have to realize that you are more inteligent and more informed than a large portion of the American people.  Some of this was a rude awakening to alot of people who had no idea some of this funny business was going on.  If MSNBC tells them that the war is over and we are seeing resistance but paints the soldiers as super warriors who always win then they will believe that.

  Whenever you try to reach the masses with a message you are going to push a few of them to the side.  Especially the ones who have some lights on upstairs.

[SPURSX3]

The difference between this America and the past versions is that although there has allways been corruption and dishonesty.  Our worst agression was directed at foreigners, and sometimes for legitimate reasons.  But we were all in it together, and we all had a say in it, or at least I could feel that way.

There was no debate prior to the war in Iraq, even though the ability to declare war is suppossed to be reserved for the Congress.  A lot of Americans got sent over there to do something that was completly illegitimate.  There was no real justification for going into Iraq, we wnt because our President wanted it.

There has never been an admistration that has lied to the American people about the actual state of our own economy, the true rate of inflation, the true employment rate, the velocity of money in the country and our cumulative public and private debt.  Never mind the political dynamics that have resulted in the dismantling of American manufacturing, so a bunch of Chinese could start living in the 20th century on our backs.

There has never been such a reason to lie as today, since the truth if widely known would be politically unpalatible.  I am very afraid that our independence and freedoms are under a final assault that will send our country into the totalitarian abyss.  We are being betrayed in a more outrageous way than at any other time in our Nations history.  And, that's saying alot.

dude, i cant say i disagree with all your Mel Gibson "conspiracy theory" ideas here, but each conflict has an opposition, the diff is maybe you felt in favor of an action at a certain time.  also while congress is the body that declares "WAR", the president can send troops to anywhere basically, remember - it wasnt called the Iraq War at first - it was called a liberation - same happenned on kosovo with NATO - err US planes bombing the hell out of them - that was courtesy of your favorite - and my favorite sitcom star - Bill Clinton.  it happens in every freaking administration, and there is ALWAYS opposition - after 9/11 happenned i remember people being oppossed to us going tp war then!  i thought to myself, what the hell is wrong with those people, how could they not support kicking anyones arse that did that to us?  it's always there Rick.

[spursfan101]

Moore goes too far sometimes in that he attacks (ala the Heston bit in Columbine) when he should just let the story tell itself. In his defense he makes no claim to objectivity regarding this film. He is openly admitting he has an opinion and wants you to hear it.

He didn't go to far with Heston; he didn't put the words in his mouth. "Were a violent society because of our history of violence and because there are more minorities in this country than others.

Heston hung himself with his bigotry.

[westkoast]

The difference between this America and the past versions is that although there has allways been corruption and dishonesty.  Our worst agression was directed at foreigners, and sometimes for legitimate reasons.  But we were all in it together, and we all had a say in it, or at least I could feel that way.

There was no debate prior to the war in Iraq, even though the ability to declare war is suppossed to be reserved for the Congress.  A lot of Americans got sent over there to do something that was completly illegitimate.  There was no real justification for going into Iraq, we wnt because our President wanted it.

There has never been an admistration that has lied to the American people about the actual state of our own economy, the true rate of inflation, the true employment rate, the velocity of money in the country and our cumulative public and private debt.  Never mind the political dynamics that have resulted in the dismantling of American manufacturing, so a bunch of Chinese could start living in the 20th century on our backs.

There has never been such a reason to lie as today, since the truth if widely known would be politically unpalatible.  I am very afraid that our independence and freedoms are under a final assault that will send our country into the totalitarian abyss.  We are being betrayed in a more outrageous way than at any other time in our Nations history.  And, that's saying alot.

dude, i cant say i disagree with all your Mel Gibson "conspiracy theory" ideas here, but each conflict has an opposition, the diff is maybe you felt in favor of an action at a certain time.  also while congress is the body that declares "WAR", the president can send troops to anywhere basically, remember - it wasnt called the Iraq War at first - it was called a liberation - same happenned on kosovo with NATO - err US planes bombing the hell out of them - that was courtesy of your favorite - and my favorite sitcom star - Bill Clinton.  it happens in every freaking administration, and there is ALWAYS opposition - after 9/11 happenned i remember people being oppossed to us going tp war then!  i thought to myself, what the hell is wrong with those people, how could they not support kicking anyones arse that did that to us?  it's always there Rick.

The war went from removing Sadaam and his regime because they were a serious threat to the US and were planning to attack with WMD.

Then the war became all about liberating the Iraqi people from an evil dictator once those WMD's were no where to be found.

The first had to be the main and only reason we went over there.  Or else why werent we doing this 20 years ago?  And no desert storm was not about saving the Iraqi's from him, it was about protecting Kuwait from invasion.  Must be nice to switch up solid reasons why we are over there.