Is Lebrons elbow whacked?

[Joe Vancil]

While Reality's point about Kobe quitting in the Suns game is ACCURATE, it is not RELEVANT.

I was responding to this:

Again though, let me type it out again.  If this was Kobe you would be singing a different tune instead of trying to sugar coat it.  I can only imagine how many photoshopped pictures of the Lakers fishing you'd have done last night before the clock struck midnight.

Face it, Kobe quit on his team in the Suns game.

  And the OKC game in 2010.

LeBron did not quit on his team.  Instead, he emulated the "other" selfish-Kobe behavior - the kind that lost the 2004 Finals.  And that's how basketball is SUPPOSED to work.

What on Earth are you talking about?

I'm saying LeBron *TRIED* last night, but what he tried was completely wrong.  It was like Kobe on the 2004 Lakers vs. Pistons team.  He tried to do it by himself.  And he failed.  And the reason he failed was because he tried to do it by himself.

IMO LeBron did NOT know what to do.  When he finally decided to do it himself, the Celtics were ready.  LeBron tries to play both sides of the coin, the good teamate and the franchise player and it did not work.  When it's done right it can work but LeBron failed last night.  Kobe has had the same problem, and still does, so it's not like I'm giving anyone a pass but this just proves that LeBron is no better than Kobe as so many people would like to believe.  IMO Kobe is still the superior player because he doesn't tell the media he should be guarding the oppositions best player, he just does it (Billups/Melo in the SAME game 2009, Westbrook 2010). 

I think one of LeBrons' biggest problems is he tries to be the "good guy" with EVERYONE (team mates, media, fans, coaches, etc..).  You don't win titles being a "good guy", you win them by being the a-hole that will do ANYTHING to win (TD is the only exception I can think of since he did title without GNob).  By a-hole I don't mean the typical conotation, I mean be willing to flop, flail, grab, pull, whine, etc...things I do not necessarily like/respect (flop/flail) but it takes a different mindset to not care how you look or what people think of you in your quest to win.

I can agree with much of what you say. 

As to which is the superior player between James and Kobe, I think we have to wait and and see.  It's easy to forget that Kobe has been around a lot longer than LeBron, and that LeBron has never had a teammate as good as Pau Gasol, much less a prime-of-his-career version of Shaq, nor one who's spent as many years with him as Derek Fisher has with Kobe.  Nor has LeBron had a quality coach, unless you want to count the limited time with Paul Silas.

On the "good guy," point, I tend to agree.  Every player has to have a little bit of "nasty" in his game.  But I'd also argue that, other than his incessant whining, Duncan hits the mix just about right.  The guy I'd point to with the perfect balance - EVER - is Joe Dumars (as a player).

[WayOutWest]

While Reality's point about Kobe quitting in the Suns game is ACCURATE, it is not RELEVANT.

I was responding to this:

Again though, let me type it out again.  If this was Kobe you would be singing a different tune instead of trying to sugar coat it.  I can only imagine how many photoshopped pictures of the Lakers fishing you'd have done last night before the clock struck midnight.

Face it, Kobe quit on his team in the Suns game.

  And the OKC game in 2010.

LeBron did not quit on his team.  Instead, he emulated the "other" selfish-Kobe behavior - the kind that lost the 2004 Finals.  And that's how basketball is SUPPOSED to work.

What on Earth are you talking about?

I'm saying LeBron *TRIED* last night, but what he tried was completely wrong.  It was like Kobe on the 2004 Lakers vs. Pistons team.  He tried to do it by himself.  And he failed.  And the reason he failed was because he tried to do it by himself.

IMO LeBron did NOT know what to do.  When he finally decided to do it himself, the Celtics were ready.  LeBron tries to play both sides of the coin, the good teamate and the franchise player and it did not work.  When it's done right it can work but LeBron failed last night.  Kobe has had the same problem, and still does, so it's not like I'm giving anyone a pass but this just proves that LeBron is no better than Kobe as so many people would like to believe.  IMO Kobe is still the superior player because he doesn't tell the media he should be guarding the oppositions best player, he just does it (Billups/Melo in the SAME game 2009, Westbrook 2010). 

I think one of LeBrons' biggest problems is he tries to be the "good guy" with EVERYONE (team mates, media, fans, coaches, etc..).  You don't win titles being a "good guy", you win them by being the a-hole that will do ANYTHING to win (TD is the only exception I can think of since he did title without GNob).  By a-hole I don't mean the typical conotation, I mean be willing to flop, flail, grab, pull, whine, etc...things I do not necessarily like/respect (flop/flail) but it takes a different mindset to not care how you look or what people think of you in your quest to win.

I can agree with much of what you say. 

As to which is the superior player between James and Kobe, I think we have to wait and and see.  It's easy to forget that Kobe has been around a lot longer than LeBron, and that LeBron has never had a teammate as good as Pau Gasol, much less a prime-of-his-career version of Shaq, nor one who's spent as many years with him as Derek Fisher has with Kobe.  Nor has LeBron had a quality coach, unless you want to count the limited time with Paul Silas.

On the "good guy," point, I tend to agree.  Every player has to have a little bit of "nasty" in his game.  But I'd also argue that, other than his incessant whining, Duncan hits the mix just about right.  The guy I'd point to with the perfect balance - EVER - is Joe Dumars (as a player).

Joe was not the face of his team.

[westkoast]

While Reality's point about Kobe quitting in the Suns game is ACCURATE, it is not RELEVANT.

I was responding to this:

Again though, let me type it out again.  If this was Kobe you would be singing a different tune instead of trying to sugar coat it.  I can only imagine how many photoshopped pictures of the Lakers fishing you'd have done last night before the clock struck midnight.

Face it, Kobe quit on his team in the Suns game.

  And the OKC game in 2010.

LeBron did not quit on his team.  Instead, he emulated the "other" selfish-Kobe behavior - the kind that lost the 2004 Finals.  And that's how basketball is SUPPOSED to work.

What on Earth are you talking about?

I'm saying LeBron *TRIED* last night, but what he tried was completely wrong.  It was like Kobe on the 2004 Lakers vs. Pistons team.  He tried to do it by himself.  And he failed.  And the reason he failed was because he tried to do it by himself.

IMO LeBron did NOT know what to do.  When he finally decided to do it himself, the Celtics were ready.  LeBron tries to play both sides of the coin, the good teamate and the franchise player and it did not work.  When it's done right it can work but LeBron failed last night.  Kobe has had the same problem, and still does, so it's not like I'm giving anyone a pass but this just proves that LeBron is no better than Kobe as so many people would like to believe.  IMO Kobe is still the superior player because he doesn't tell the media he should be guarding the oppositions best player, he just does it (Billups/Melo in the SAME game 2009, Westbrook 2010). 

I think one of LeBrons' biggest problems is he tries to be the "good guy" with EVERYONE (team mates, media, fans, coaches, etc..).  You don't win titles being a "good guy", you win them by being the a-hole that will do ANYTHING to win (TD is the only exception I can think of since he did title without GNob).  By a-hole I don't mean the typical conotation, I mean be willing to flop, flail, grab, pull, whine, etc...things I do not necessarily like/respect (flop/flail) but it takes a different mindset to not care how you look or what people think of you in your quest to win.

I can agree with much of what you say. 

As to which is the superior player between James and Kobe, I think we have to wait and and see.  It's easy to forget that Kobe has been around a lot longer than LeBron, and that LeBron has never had a teammate as good as Pau Gasol, much less a prime-of-his-career version of Shaq, nor one who's spent as many years with him as Derek Fisher has with Kobe.  Nor has LeBron had a quality coach, unless you want to count the limited time with Paul Silas.

On the "good guy," point, I tend to agree.  Every player has to have a little bit of "nasty" in his game.  But I'd also argue that, other than his incessant whining, Duncan hits the mix just about right.  The guy I'd point to with the perfect balance - EVER - is Joe Dumars (as a player).

Do you know what I think the main difference is?

Kobe's life and focus is entirely basketball.  This is a guy who eats, breathes, and sleeps basketball.  He doesn't have much of a personality outside of basketball, he's not the guy hanging with Jay-z or going out to big parties, he just plays basketball.  It's a lot easier to focus when that is the only thing you do.  He is kind of boring and while in the past it has hurt him when teammates thought his not going to clubs meant he didn't want to bond is actually playing into his benefit later on in his career.

Lebron on the other hand has his celebrity factoring in just as much as what he does on the court in his life.  He likes to make trips to Vegas or go hang out at the studio with Jay-z.  One can assume he would love to be in New York's night life with all the stars on a much more regular basis.   Pretty much he has more going on then just basketball like boring ol Kobe and I think it makes a difference.  Lebron James does get paid to play basketball but he actually makes more money being a 'cool' guy who hangs out with the big names in America because of the products he pushes.

[Joe Vancil]

Do you know what I think the main difference is?

Kobe's life and focus is entirely basketball.  This is a guy who eats, breathes, and sleeps basketball.  He doesn't have much of a personality outside of basketball, he's not the guy hanging with Jay-z or going out to big parties, he just plays basketball.  It's a lot easier to focus when that is the only thing you do.  He is kind of boring and while in the past it has hurt him when teammates thought his not going to clubs meant he didn't want to bond is actually playing into his benefit later on in his career.

Lebron on the other hand has his celebrity factoring in just as much as what he does on the court in his life.  He likes to make trips to Vegas or go hang out at the studio with Jay-z.  One can assume he would love to be in New York's night life with all the stars on a much more regular basis.   Pretty much he has more going on then just basketball like boring ol Kobe and I think it makes a difference.  Lebron James does get paid to play basketball but he actually makes more money being a 'cool' guy who hangs out with the big names in America because of the products he pushes.

You know, I find it difficult to argue any of this.

I think that each player has made (and will make) their own sacrifices on the choices they've made.  And I think there are bitter penalties on each.

[Reality]

Do you know what I think the main difference is?

Kobe's life and focus is entirely basketball.  This is a guy who eats, breathes, and sleeps basketball.  He doesn't have much of a personality outside of basketball, he's not the guy hanging with Jay-z or going out to big parties, he just plays basketball.  It's a lot easier to focus when that is the only thing you do.  He is kind of boring and while in the past it has hurt him when teammates thought his not going to clubs meant he didn't want to bond is actually playing into his benefit later on in his career.

[Reality]

I'm saying LeBron *TRIED* last night, but what he tried was completely wrong.  It was like Kobe on the 2004 Lakers vs. Pistons team.  He tried to do it by himself.  And he failed.  And the reason he failed was because he tried to do it by himself.

10 assists for LeBron even tho his team shot 20-57
Did Kobme have 10 assists for the entire Pistons series?
Kobme failed to throw the ball into relatively fit 60% fg plowing Shaq.
LeBron failed to throw the ball to who?
And has Kome ever had 19 rebounds in a game in his life?

I've recorded the Cavs-Celts game.  Will watch the 4th qtr when i can.

[westkoast]

I'm saying LeBron *TRIED* last night, but what he tried was completely wrong.  It was like Kobe on the 2004 Lakers vs. Pistons team.  He tried to do it by himself.  And he failed.  And the reason he failed was because he tried to do it by himself.

10 assists for LeBron even tho his team shot 20-57
Did Kobme have 10 assists for the entire Pistons series?
Kobme failed to throw the ball into relatively fit 60% fg plowing Shaq.
LeBron failed to throw the ball to who?

I've recorded the Cavs-Celts game.  Will watch the 4th qtr when i can.

This is exactly what I am talking about.  Why do you have to throw in bs in  debate? First with the picture that added nothing and second with this post right here.   You know damn well a guy who averaged 4.5 assists per game (1 less than his career and current level) in a series has more than 10 assists.  Why would you even ask such a stupid question?  It really takes wind out of your debates when you do that.

And who did Lebron fail to throw the ball too?  Mo Williams who had 20 points in the first half.  Antwan Jamison.....Oh and SHAQ.  You know the guy Kobe didn't throw the ball to a single time (according to you)

When you pass the ball to other people it doesn't always need to result in a shot.  Sometimes moving the ball comes back around to you and you get the open shot.  The problem is when the defense knows whos going to take the shot and the ball doesn't move to show them otherwise it makes it quite easy to defend teams.  Why does this need to be explained to you???

[westkoast]

Btw what is up with the media reporting so much nonsense about this whole deal?  Here are two stories floating around as to why Lebron played sub par...

- Lebron James and the owner of the Cavs had a meeting before Game 5.  In that meeting Lebron James was told if they don't do it this year that they can't put in as much effort to win next year players wise.

- Delonte West had been having an affair with Lebron's mom for half the season and he just found out before game 5

[Reality]

I don't disagree on the fact that Brown is an awful coach.  I don't disagree that he relies on LeBron too much.  But the "orders" LeBron is getting have always been, "Do what you think is best."  That's why James has been criticized (unfairly, mind you) for passing in game-critical situations in the past.  Brown gave LeBron no guidance, but LeBron's own choices were *BAD* in last night's game.  Look at his final turnover, for example.  He threw the ball to NOBODY.  There was not a single Cavalier there.  Why?  Because LeBron was planning on taking that side of the lane, but Boston's defense prevented it.  The team stood around and waited because he had already planned on doing it himself.  You get that because a player plays selfishly.

You get that because a coach orders the other players to stand around and wait.  See Popazit and Timmy Dunkan in the 4 Dumb offense.
Duncan and LeBron playing selfishly or following orders?  Well, you get no argument from me that Duncan has condoned this type of *LOSING* behavior for years, and perhaps James has done the same.  I still say his overall game 6 was NOT selfish but let me review the 4th qtr, i only saw parts of it.

You're excusing the same behavior you'd take other players to task for.  How come you didn't excuse it when Kobe had teammates like Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, Devean George, and Smush Parker?  LeBron had more talent to work with, and he didn't use it.  (And how come some of the Laker fans here *WERE* excusing it, but aren't excusing LeBron's conduct now?)

  I believe I'm on record as saying there were times when the rest of the Lakers stood around so Kobes had to pump it up himself.  Microscopic compared to the times he has selfished it.

[Reality]

This is exactly what I am talking about.  Why do you have to throw in bs in  debate? First with the picture that added nothing and second with this post right here.   You know damn well a guy who averaged 4.5 assists per game (1 less than his career and current level) in a series has more than 10 assists.  Why would you even ask such a stupid question?  It really takes wind out of your debates when you do that.

You initiated bringing Kobe into this thread in reply #3 quoted here:

This should go with out saying around here since everyone knows your style but if this was Kobe, you'd be singing a different tune.

The picture i wanted to know how he "eats, breathes, and sleeps basketball" when arranging for and then doing the photo shoot.  For the LA Times.  In mascara.
Was he reminiscing about after game parties with Dick Bavetta and crew? 
 

And who did Lebron fail to throw the ball too?  Mo Williams who had 20 points in the first half.  Antwan Jamison.....Oh and SHAQ.  You know the guy Kobe didn't throw the ball to a single time (according to you)

  Lebron must have thrown it to Mo Williams for a bunch of those 20 points. 
Ant J repeat was 2-10.
Just in the parts i saw Snaq did get a nifty pass from Bron on a drive n dish.  He fumbled it out of bounds for a turn.  Also Shaq of 2004 was more nible then 2010 Shaq.
I really do not know if Kobes had over 10 assists the entire Finals series vs the Pistons. 

When you pass the ball to other people it doesn't always need to result in a shot.  Sometimes moving the ball comes back around to you and you get the open shot.  The problem is when the defense knows whos going to take the shot and the ball doesn't move to show them otherwise it makes it quite easy to defend teams.  Why does this need to be explained to you???

It doesn't.  And i did see LeBron a few times go into Kobme mode where he dribbled it 8 times and then shot.  For the whole game and series tho like Kobes in 2004?  Not a chance.

[Reality]

Joe while i will still view LeBrons 4th qtr vs Boston,

Kobes Bryant vs Pistons 2004 Finals.

Gm 1
10-27 (1-6 treys) 4 rebounds 4 assists 3 turns

Gm 3 88-68 Pistons won
4-13 (0-4 treys) 3 rebounds 5 assists 4 turns

Gm 4
88-80 Pistons won
8-25 (2-6 treys) 0 rebounds 2 assists  (0 rebounds this is not a misprint)

Gm 5
7-21 (0-2 treys) 3 rebounds 4 assists
Vancil and westkoast these stats are not even on the same planet as LeBrons 27/19/10 even with the 10 turns.

29-86 fg% in 4 losses
10 rebounds in 4 games.

[Reality]

- Delonte West had been having an affair with Lebron's mom for half the season and he just found out before game 5

I'm giving neither credit nor discredit to this allegation.
I did see a poster say "watch the after game clips where LeBron kisses his mom then Delmonte West does also."
Poster was not saying either way if an ewwwww factor was involved or if it just looked like a completely non sensual kiss -some cultures smooch.
He was just saying view and judge for yourself.

Wow, would that be an explaination if it's not just made up slander.  I gotta lean towards made up.

[westkoast]

This is exactly what I am talking about.  Why do you have to throw in bs in  debate? First with the picture that added nothing and second with this post right here.   You know damn well a guy who averaged 4.5 assists per game (1 less than his career and current level) in a series has more than 10 assists.  Why would you even ask such a stupid question?  It really takes wind out of your debates when you do that.

You initiated bringing Kobe into this thread in reply #3 quoted here:

This should go with out saying around here since everyone knows your style but if this was Kobe, you'd be singing a different tune.

The picture i wanted to know how he "eats, breathes, and sleeps basketball" when arranging for and then doing the photo shoot.  For the LA Times.  In mascara.
Was he reminiscing about after game parties with Dick Bavetta and crew? 
 

And who did Lebron fail to throw the ball too?  Mo Williams who had 20 points in the first half.  Antwan Jamison.....Oh and SHAQ.  You know the guy Kobe didn't throw the ball to a single time (according to you)

  Lebron must have thrown it to Mo Williams for a bunch of those 20 points. 
Ant J repeat was 2-10.
Just in the parts i saw Snaq did get a nifty pass from Bron on a drive n dish.  He fumbled it out of bounds for a turn.  Also Shaq of 2004 was more nible then 2010 Shaq.
I really do not know if Kobes had over 10 assists the entire Finals series vs the Pistons. 

When you pass the ball to other people it doesn't always need to result in a shot.  Sometimes moving the ball comes back around to you and you get the open shot.  The problem is when the defense knows whos going to take the shot and the ball doesn't move to show them otherwise it makes it quite easy to defend teams.  Why does this need to be explained to you???

It doesn't.  And i did see LeBron a few times go into Kobme mode where he dribbled it 8 times and then shot.  For the whole game and series tho like Kobes in 2004?  Not a chance.

YOU SERIOUSLY CANNOT BE THIS GOD DAMN STUPID.   I DID NOT BRING UP KOBE TO DEBATE ABOUT KOBE AND LEBRON.  I BROUGHT IT UP TO POINT OUT HOW YOU DOUBLE SPEAK ABOUT BOTH PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE ONE IS NOT A LAKER.  JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY I EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU THREE GOD DAMN TIMES ON THE FIRST PAGE.  THE ONLY WAY JOE BROUGHT UP KOBE WAS TO EXPLAIN A STYLE OF PLAY HE DOESNT AGREE WITH.  STATS DONT CHANGE WHAT HES SAYING WHY ARE YOU EVEN CONTINUING ON WITH THIS?

[Reality]

Laker Fan Dan are you going to weigh in on a Laker posters use of language? ^^^^

Koast would you like to edit this?

[westkoast]

Laker Fan Dan are you going to weigh in on a Laker posters use of language? ^^^^

Koast would you like to edit this?

Kiss my ass you little tattle tale.