Is Lebrons elbow whacked?

[Reality]

Lebron is not using the elbow reinjury vs the Bulls as an excuse.
I am not saying that is why he is subpar vs the Celts nor why the Celts are creaming them.  Mike Brown is reason #1 imo.
Game 5 was ghastly.

With those caveats, i do think Lebrons elbow is whacked.  How much, how little? 
Discuss.
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2010/05/injury-update-lebrons-elbow-way-worse-than-generally-known/

[westkoast]

I am not buying that as an excuse for his poor performance on game 5.  If his elbow was hurting him that is one thing it is another to not pay attention during time outs, to not try hard on defense, and to all around carry yourself around like you just don't care when you are tied up in a playoff series.

His jumper doesn't look to be so far off to where it really seems to be effecting him anyways.  Maybe it gets sore towards the end of the game but out the gate it looked fine to me in the past 2 games.  You can't have a monster game right after you mess it up and then try to come back after a poor game to blame the elbow (which btw he hasnt)

[Reality]

You can't have a monster game right after you mess it up and then try to come back after a poor game to blame the elbow (which btw he hasnt)

Actually you can, esp with recurring injuries.
Witness Manu GNob vs your Flamers in 2008 playoffs.
Ist two games he shot 20% and was obviously bothered by his ankle.  Game 3 he goes off for a monster performance of 30/10/6 or similiar on 70% fga.
Game 4 and 5 goes back into the crapper, looking visibly bothered by the ankle again.

That said, Clevelands support for Bron was horrible.  Ant J was 2-10 and got worked on the other end.  Shaq and Z, well Shaq was semi okay but Z got worked and added zero offense.
No way do i blame this game on Lebron, 9 turnovers withstanding.
Flipping triple double including 17 rebounds.

[westkoast]

You can't have a monster game right after you mess it up and then try to come back after a poor game to blame the elbow (which btw he hasnt)

Actually you can, esp with recurring injuries.
Witness Manu GNob vs your Flamers in 2008 playoffs.
Ist two games he shot 20% and was obviously bothered by his ankle.  Game 3 he goes off for a monster performance of 30/10/6 or similiar on 70% fga.
Game 4 and 5 goes back into the crapper, looking visibly bothered by the ankle again.

That said, Clevelands support for Bron was horrible.  Ant J was 2-10 and got worked on the other end.  Shaq and Z, well Shaq was semi okay but Z got worked and added zero offense.
No way do i blame this game on Lebron, 9 turnovers withstanding.
Flipping triple double including 17 rebounds.

Manu was visibly slower and not cutting the same the entire time.  Lebron James' jumper looked fine outside of the lift on his legs.  Shots were coming up short and that has a lot more to do with your legs than it does your elbow.  The rotation on the ball was fine, I was watching.  Don't bring up all his turnovers and say it was caused by his elbow either.  Most of those in the last two games came on bad decisions (like throwing the ball up instead of bouncing it on a back cut)

And you should blame Lebron because when the leader plays with no intensity or fire the rest of the team follows suit.  Just like when hes charged up so is the rest of the squad.  If you throw in the double digit turn overs in the last two loses you HAVE to blame him.

This should go with out saying around here since everyone knows your style but if this was Kobe, you'd be singing a different tune.  We all know that.

[Reality]

^^ you are sorely mistaken.  While i did not see the entire game, i saw LeBron most definitely attempt to Spur a Cavs comeback several times.  One was an end to end drive that Sheed did an intentional foul as Bron approached the hoop.  It's not like Sheed did what so many NBA players do, that is fail to make the intentional foul hard enough so that the shooter does miss (a pet peeve of Hidey and mines), no Sheed gave him a pretty good rap.  LeBron switches hands and does a flippin full speed left handed banker for the 2+1.  That's firing up your team.

He also regained his shooting touch (elbow was off, legs as you say, fine either one or both) and drilled back to back treys in the late 3rd or early 4th.  That's firing up your team.
It's not his fault the team looked tired and worn down, also when you have a coach who has such a vegged out offensive plan and OVERWORKs his star (see Timmy Dunks and Popazit with the ad nauseum 4 Dumb offense) it wears a team out, makes it no fun and yes, Lebron was tired.

Kobme?  Do tell us what your take was and is when he quit during the playoffs Lakers-Suns 7th game.  And then let me know when he has EVER gone for a playoff 27/17/10.
Bynum and Odom are far outplaying Ant Z and Varelejjo.
Pao Gasol vs Snaq and Z?  Please.
Phil Jackson vs Brown Popovich.

NO comparison.  Kombe has it much much better.

[westkoast]

^^ you are sorely mistaken.  While i did not see the entire game, i saw LeBron most definitely attempt to Spur a Cavs comeback several times.  One was an end to end drive that Sheed did an intentional foul as Bron approached the hoop.  It's not like Sheed did what so many NBA players do, that is fail to make the intentional foul hard enough so that the shooter does miss (a pet peeve of Hidey and mines), no Sheed gave him a pretty good rap.  LeBron switches hands and does a flippin full speed left handed banker for the 2+1.  That's firing up your team.

He also regained his shooting touch (elbow was off, legs as you say, fine either one or both) and drilled back to back treys in the late 3rd or early 4th.  That's firing up your team.
It's not his fault the team looked tired and worn down, also when you have a coach who has such a vegged out offensive plan and OVERWORKs his star (see Timmy Dunks and Popazit with the ad nauseum 4 Dumb offense) it wears a team out, makes it no fun and yes, Lebron was tired.

Kobme?  Do tell us what your take was and is when he quit during the playoffs Lakers-Suns 7th game.  And then let me know when he has EVER gone for a playoff 27/17/10.
Bynum and Odom are far outplaying Ant Z and Varelejjo.
Pao Gasol vs Snaq and Z?  Please.
Phil Jackson vs Brown Popovich.

NO comparison.  Kombe has it much much better.

I am not going to go back and forth with you because I don't have the desire or energy to explain simple points to you over and over and over.  It wasn't comparing their teams.  It wasn't comparing them directly.  It was comparing how YOU personally treat the two players differently when you post.  You are making excuses for Lebron's average play.  9 turnovers in a playoff game is not something you sweep under the rug.  You also don't sweep under the rug the lack of fire in a pivitol game 5 where they lost by 32 on their own floor.  Maybe you should have watched the whole game instead of playing box score boy.  In the first half Lebron was just average and if it wasn't for Mo Williams getting 20 in the first half the game would have been ugly at half time.  Lebron was missing jumpers not because he was way off or in accurate but because they were coming up short like he wasn't using his legs enough.

Again though, let me type it out again.  If this was Kobe you would be singing a different tune instead of trying to sugar coat it.  I can only imagine how many photoshopped pictures of the Lakers fishing you'd have done last night before the clock struck midnight.

[Reality]

Kobme?  Do tell us what your take was and is when he quit during the playoffs Lakers-Suns 7th game.  And then let me know when he has EVER gone for a playoff 27/17/10.
The OKC series too where he pouted one game and refused to shoot.

[westkoast]

Kobme?  Do tell us what your take was and is when he quit during the playoffs Lakers-Suns 7th game.  And then let me know when he has EVER gone for a playoff 27/17/10.
The OKC series too where he pouted one game and refused to shoot.

In OKC he was specifically told, like that PHX game, to move the ball.  The coaches backed up what he was doing.  Please point out where he wasn't paying attention in huddles, not playing any defense.  He was being doubled in that PHX game as he was their only real weapon and moved the ball when it came.  I however don't expect you to remember that as you don't really watch games.  If Luke Walton and the likes hit shots no one would have been crying he didn't shoot enough.  Again, another one of your hindsight predictions.  You are not a RealGenius because you know that maybe he should have shot more after seeing that those guys didn't shoot a good percentage when the game was all said and done.

I don't see what Kobe not having a triple double (Lebron almost had a quadrople double actually) has to do with the fact that in the last 2 games Lebron let his team and city down.  Nor do I understand what it has to do with you sugar coating everything one does and crapping all over what the other does.    This is my last post in here.  Go ahead and get the last word.  Even after I spell it out for you in crayon you still don't get it. 

[Joe Vancil]

Let's get to the bottom line of last night's game:  TURNOVERS.  When you turn the ball over and give the other team easy looks, you can't complain;  you got what you *DESERVED*.

And who was leading the way with those turnovers?  *LEBRON*.  

The turnovers that I saw (and things that should have gone as turnovers but went as rebounds) were because LeBron had gone into full-blown "bad-Kobe" mode.  He tried to do it all himself, and the Celtics defense was waiting for that moment.  You don't beat Boston by challenging Garnett to play defense in the lane.  You don't beat Boston by trying to go one-on-one against them.  What is the result of that going to be?  TURNOVERS.  What was the result of that last night?  TURNOVERS.  What will it be if anyone employs this strategy?  TURNOVERS.

If this was Kobe, we'd be blasting him for it.  And we'd be right to.  Sorry, LeBron, but this one's on you.  

For the longest time, LeBron has focused on getting production out of teammates.  Last night, it was teammates focusing on getting production out of LeBron.  The former makes Cleveland a good team.  The latter makes them the 2005 Lakers.

Great numbers do not excuse the SELFISH, I-CAN-DO-IT-ALL-BY-MYSELF play that LeBron engaged in during the fourth quarter.  Over and over, basketball proves, NO, you can't do it all by yourself.  Cleveland is not talented enough to overcome LeBron engaging in the failed emulation of Jordan's, Kobe's, Iverson's, or whatever other player you want to pick's shameless self-promotion.  I can even point to the '97 Finals version of Karl Malone, when he decide to prove to every skeptic that he could shoot from the outside.  It's wrong-minded thinking, and unless your team has the talent to overcome the misbehavior of it's star, then you're going to lose.  Some teams have enough talent to overcome that, but most don't.

When you see 9 turnovers, that's a number you have to explain - you can't just overlook it.  Desperation might excuse a few, but *9*?  No way.  

I say LeBron got what he deserved based on how he tried to play.

[Reality]

btw westkoast i do acknowlege LeBron did look and play sluggishly in Gm 5.
That was weird.

Vancil.  True on the turnovers.  The rest no way.  Lebrons teamates were little or no help and Mike Brownovichs offense if for LeBron to do it all.  He's following orders.

[Joe Vancil]

Kobme?  Do tell us what your take was and is when he quit during the playoffs Lakers-Suns 7th game.  And then let me know when he has EVER gone for a playoff 27/17/10.
The OKC series too where he pouted one game and refused to shoot.

In OKC he was specifically told, like that PHX game, to move the ball.  The coaches backed up what he was doing.  Please point out where he wasn't paying attention in huddles, not playing any defense.  He was being doubled in that PHX game as he was their only real weapon and moved the ball when it came.  I however don't expect you to remember that as you don't really watch games.  If Luke Walton and the likes hit shots no one would have been crying he didn't shoot enough.  Again, another one of your hindsight predictions.  You are not a RealGenius because you know that maybe he should have shot more after seeing that those guys didn't shoot a good percentage when the game was all said and done.

I don't see what Kobe not having a triple double (Lebron almost had a quadrople double actually) has to do with the fact that in the last 2 games Lebron let his team and city down.  Nor do I understand what it has to do with you sugar coating everything one does and crapping all over what the other does.    This is my last post in here.  Go ahead and get the last word.  Even after I spell it out for you in crayon you still don't get it. 

While Reality's point about Kobe quitting in the Suns game is ACCURATE, it is not RELEVANT.

Face it, Kobe quit on his team in the Suns game.  The fact that his teammates and coaches chose to spin it differently is because they know they're going nowhere without him, and may be tossed out with the garbage if they go against him.  No one ever accused Bryant of being a forgiving-of-criticism sort.  It wouldn't surprise me if his HOF induction speech is much like Jordan's, where he takes shots at ex-teammates, ex-coaches, etc.  

But Kobe's behavior is completely irrelevant.  LeBron did not quit on his team.  Instead, he emulated the "other" selfish-Kobe behavior - the kind that lost the 2004 Finals.  And that's how basketball is SUPPOSED to work.

[Reality]

While Reality's point about Kobe quitting in the Suns game is ACCURATE, it is not RELEVANT.

I was responding to this:

Again though, let me type it out again.  If this was Kobe you would be singing a different tune instead of trying to sugar coat it.  I can only imagine how many photoshopped pictures of the Lakers fishing you'd have done last night before the clock struck midnight.

Face it, Kobe quit on his team in the Suns game.

  And the OKC game in 2010.

LeBron did not quit on his team.  Instead, he emulated the "other" selfish-Kobe behavior - the kind that lost the 2004 Finals.  And that's how basketball is SUPPOSED to work.

What on Earth are you talking about?

[Joe Vancil]

btw westkoast i do acknowlege LeBron did look and play sluggishly in Gm 5.
That was weird.

Vancil.  True on the turnovers.  The rest no way.  Lebrons teamates were little or no help and Mike Brownovichs offense if for LeBron to do it all.  He's following orders.

I don't disagree on the fact that Brown is an awful coach.  I don't disagree that he relies on LeBron too much.  But the "orders" LeBron is getting have always been, "Do what you think is best."  That's why James has been criticized (unfairly, mind you) for passing in game-critical situations in the past.  Brown gave LeBron no guidance, but LeBron's own choices were *BAD* in last night's game.  Look at his final turnover, for example.  He threw the ball to NOBODY.  There was not a single Cavalier there.  Why?  Because LeBron was planning on taking that side of the lane, but Boston's defense prevented it.  The team stood around and waited because he had already planned on doing it himself.  You get that because a player plays selfishly.

You're excusing the same behavior you'd take other players to task for.  How come you didn't excuse it when Kobe had teammates like Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, Devean George, and Smush Parker?  LeBron had more talent to work with, and he didn't use it.  (And how come some of the Laker fans here *WERE* excusing it, but aren't excusing LeBron's conduct now?)

Whether Bryant in '06, or '07, or LeBron in '10, the style of basketball being played is LOSING BASKETBALL.  Maybe you have a team that has enough talent to overcome it, but more than likely, you don't.  That's why folks like Dean Smith, John Wooden, Bobby Knight, and Mike Krzyzewski have always emphasized the WHOLE of the team, and using each player to get what you can out of him.  Out of using those other players, situations will arise that allow the star to exert his presence, and the role players will feed the star.  But it starts with trust.  LeBron didn't use that last night; he tried to do it all himself.  And he lost...exactly as good basketball philosophy said that he would.

Take Mike Brown to task for feeding this mentality if you will (and I think you should), but LeBron is equally guilty.

[Joe Vancil]

While Reality's point about Kobe quitting in the Suns game is ACCURATE, it is not RELEVANT.

I was responding to this:

Again though, let me type it out again.  If this was Kobe you would be singing a different tune instead of trying to sugar coat it.  I can only imagine how many photoshopped pictures of the Lakers fishing you'd have done last night before the clock struck midnight.

Face it, Kobe quit on his team in the Suns game.

  And the OKC game in 2010.

LeBron did not quit on his team.  Instead, he emulated the "other" selfish-Kobe behavior - the kind that lost the 2004 Finals.  And that's how basketball is SUPPOSED to work.

What on Earth are you talking about?

I'm saying LeBron *TRIED* last night, but what he tried was completely wrong.  It was like Kobe on the 2004 Lakers vs. Pistons team.  He tried to do it by himself.  And he failed.  And the reason he failed was because he tried to do it by himself.

[WayOutWest]

While Reality's point about Kobe quitting in the Suns game is ACCURATE, it is not RELEVANT.

I was responding to this:

Again though, let me type it out again.  If this was Kobe you would be singing a different tune instead of trying to sugar coat it.  I can only imagine how many photoshopped pictures of the Lakers fishing you'd have done last night before the clock struck midnight.

Face it, Kobe quit on his team in the Suns game.

  And the OKC game in 2010.

LeBron did not quit on his team.  Instead, he emulated the "other" selfish-Kobe behavior - the kind that lost the 2004 Finals.  And that's how basketball is SUPPOSED to work.

What on Earth are you talking about?

I'm saying LeBron *TRIED* last night, but what he tried was completely wrong.  It was like Kobe on the 2004 Lakers vs. Pistons team.  He tried to do it by himself.  And he failed.  And the reason he failed was because he tried to do it by himself.

IMO LeBron did NOT know what to do.  When he finally decided to do it himself, the Celtics were ready.  LeBron tries to play both sides of the coin, the good teamate and the franchise player and it did not work.  When it's done right it can work but LeBron failed last night.  Kobe has had the same problem, and still does, so it's not like I'm giving anyone a pass but this just proves that LeBron is no better than Kobe as so many people would like to believe.  IMO Kobe is still the superior player because he doesn't tell the media he should be guarding the oppositions best player, he just does it (Billups/Melo in the SAME game 2009, Westbrook 2010). 

I think one of LeBrons' biggest problems is he tries to be the "good guy" with EVERYONE (team mates, media, fans, coaches, etc..).  You don't win titles being a "good guy", you win them by being the a-hole that will do ANYTHING to win (TD is the only exception I can think of since he did title without GNob).  By a-hole I don't mean the typical conotation, I mean be willing to flop, flail, grab, pull, whine, etc...things I do not necessarily like/respect (flop/flail) but it takes a different mindset to not care how you look or what people think of you in your quest to win.