Who will sign Michael Vick?

[rickortreat]

This is a quote from Reality's post:

"The Humane Society of the United States says that since 1983, pit bulls killed 21 of the 29 people slaughtered by dogs?72 percent killed by 1 percent of the nation?s dogs. Randall Lockwood, a Humane Society expert on vicious dogs, says: ?These animals can be canine crocodiles. They have a dark and bloody history.?"

Seventy-two percent of the deaths caused by 1% of the dogs.  Obviously, if it's a matter of teaching the dogs, people aren't doing a good job of it.  They can't handle the dogs properly. In the instance of Pit Bulls in particular, I would say that it is beyond most people to train it or make it perfectly safe. 

A family with young children would be nuts to have a dog like that around.  The statistics suggest that very few are fit to own such animals, anymore then they are fit to own a Bengal Tiger.

Stop defending the breed. I've been around plenty of dogs and I know that they are motivated to please their owners, but that they also act on their own impulse. And I also know that Pit Bulls have an aggressive nature. 

Some dogs can be trained to be mean, Shepards, Dobermans make excellent guard dogs for that reason, but a dog so trained wouldn't be a good pet. Pit Bulls are not a good family dog, whether the reason is the lack of knowledge and ability of the owner or the nature of the animal itself. It happens too often statistically to be an accident.

Society as a whole would be better off without them.  You would have me trust the owners of these animals to be able to handle them and be responsible, just as you would the owner of a gun. Gun owners go through a background check to get a concealed weapons permit, or certain types of guns.  The sellers of these guns are regulated.  Pit Bulls are dangerous enough to justify giving their owners the same scrutiny, not to mention the puppy dog mills where these dogs first learn socialization skills.

Otherwise little children are going to continue to get maimed, just like idiot gun owners how clean their guns without making sure there are no bullets in them end up shooting themselves in the foot.

[Reality]

rt i get your point but did you also get this point from the article?

German shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers, Akitas, and chows have also been guilty. And thousands of pit bulls, properly bred and trained, are innocent.

"Indeed, in responsible families," a Wall Street Journal article said, "pit bulls can make good pets. Their playful side is aroused as easily as any breeds. They shed little and are easily groomed. And it goes without saying that pit bulls make good watch dogs."

Bods and rt, your reaction to this?
Sixty percent of the 3,000 pit bulls in Philadelphia are used for dogfighting.

[Reality]

http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e923810082&view=att&th=122d1238069b0c4b&attid=0.1&disp=attd&zw

[Derek Bodner]

rick, you're showing the problem, not the cause of the problem.  That percentage is because of how they're raised, not because of their temperament.  The 60% being raised for dogfighting just shows why so many of them grow up to be aggressive.  And it's public perception and ignorance like you've shown that just causes them to get in the hands of poor owners.

This dogs that become aggressive would have been aggressive regardless of breed with how they're raised.  The pit bulls attracts morons, like Michael Vick.

[WayOutWest]

Society as a whole would be better off without them.  You would have me trust the owners of these animals to be able to handle them and be responsible, just as you would the owner of a gun. Gun owners go through a background check to get a concealed weapons permit, or certain types of guns.  The sellers of these guns are regulated.  Pit Bulls are dangerous enough to justify giving their owners the same scrutiny, not to mention the puppy dog mills where these dogs first learn socialization skills.

I guess people should get a license to raise a black child since they lead all races when it comes to violent crimes.  I'm sure black people will be all for this since OVER 90% of violent crimes against blacks are commited by blacks. 

Must be in the genes or something. 

Get a clue rick.

[Ted]

THe gun vs. pit bull analogy is stupid.

The black child vs. pit bull analogy is even more stupid, and insulting.

You guys are really disappointing me in this debate. No one is bringing their A game.

"Whatever Rick . . ."

"Get a clue Rick . . ."

WEAK! My wife's recently deceased dalmation / border collie mix could out debate you guys on this. And she was just in her teens (human years admittedly). And she would, if she hadn't been killed by the neighbor's two pit bulls. No, I'm not making this up.

[WayOutWest]

THe gun vs. pit bull analogy is stupid.

The black child vs. pit bull analogy is even more stupid, and insulting.

You guys are really disappointing me in this debate. No one is bringing their A game.

"Whatever Rick . . ."

"Get a clue Rick . . ."

WEAK! My wife's recently deceased dalmation / border collie mix could out debate you guys on this. And she was just in her teens (human years admittedly). And she would, if she hadn't been killed by the neighbor's two pit bulls. No, I'm not making this up.

 

[westkoast]

THe gun vs. pit bull analogy is stupid.

The black child vs. pit bull analogy is even more stupid, and insulting.

You guys are really disappointing me in this debate. No one is bringing their A game.

"Whatever Rick . . ."

"Get a clue Rick . . ."

WEAK! My wife's recently deceased dalmation / border collie mix could out debate you guys on this. And she was just in her teens (human years admittedly). And she would, if she hadn't been killed by the neighbor's two pit bulls. No, I'm not making this up.

LOL @ WayOutUtah

[Ted]

Yes it is funny that I'm busting chops Miguel-style.

But it's true that our dog was killed by two "well-trained" pit bulls.

[WayOutWest]

Yes it is funny that I'm busting chops Miguel-style.

But it's true that our dog was killed by two "well-trained" pit bulls.

"trained" to do what?

My brother in law has had 3 or 4 pits that he trained to be bumps on a log and that's what they did.  Never had a problem with any of my kids or their 20+ cousins around those lazy bastards.  There were also several other pits at different houses of friends and family that all the kids would play with and never had a problem.  There were three dogs that the kids would not play with because they were too aggressive because they were raised to be that way, one was a pit the other two were Lab/Shepard mixes.  It's not about the breed, it's about how you train them.  There are several breeds that are fearless, that doesn't make them killers.  There are breeds that have a very bad temperment and it makes them dangerous, Dalmations are one of the worse, and they are tougher to train.  I would rather have a pit bull in my house than a dalmation, weiner dogs are also bad tempered.  Little dogs are very high strung and are very dangerous IMO, not kill or maul you dangerous but they are almost guaranteed to bite you at some point.

One thing about larger breeds, pits in particular, is their pain threshould is higher than smaller dogs.  You pull on a dogs ear or accidentally step on their paw/tail and you may or may not get bit, the smaller the dog the more likey you will get bit because they are a jittery and don't handle stress/pain very well.

[JoMal]

My brother in law has had 3 or 4 pits that he trained to be bumps on a log and that's what they did.  Never had a problem with any of my kids or their 20+ cousins around those lazy bastards.  There were also several other pits at different houses of friends and family that all the kids would play with and never had a problem.  There were three dogs that the kids would not play with because they were too aggressive because they were raised to be that way, one was a pit the other two were Lab/Shepard mixes.  It's not about the breed, it's about how you train them.  There are several breeds that are fearless, that doesn't make them killers.  There are breeds that have a very bad temperment and it makes them dangerous, Dalmations are one of the worse, and they are tougher to train.  I would rather have a pit bull in my house than a dalmation, weiner dogs are also bad tempered.  Little dogs are very high strung and are very dangerous IMO, not kill or maul you dangerous but they are almost guaranteed to bite you at some point.

One thing about larger breeds, pits in particular, is their pain threshould is higher than smaller dogs.  You pull on a dogs ear or accidentally step on their paw/tail and you may or may not get bit, the smaller the dog the more likey you will get bit because they are a jittery and don't handle stress/pain very well.

My brother in law has had 3 or 4 guns that he trained to be bumps on a log and that's what they did.  Never had a problem with any of my kids or their 20+ cousins around those lazy guns.  There were also several other guns at different houses of friends and family that all the kids would play with and never had a problem.  There were three guns that the kids would not play with because they were too loaded because they were used that way, one was a handgun the other two were rifles.  It's not about the type of gun, it's about how you use them.  There are several guns that are aimless, that doesn't make them killers.  There are guns that have a very bad owner and it makes them dangerous, Smith and Wesson handguns are one of the worse, and they are tougher to shoot.  I would rather have a bomb in my house than a hand gun, bazookas are also bad paperweights.  Little guns are very high maintenance and are very dangerous IMO, not kill or maim you dangerous but they are almost guaranteed to go off in your face at some point.

One thing about larger guns, AK-37's in particular, is their pain infliction is higher than smaller guns.  You pull on a gun's trigger or accidentally point it jokingly at a friend and you may or may not get shot, the smaller the gun the more likey you will get shot with it because they are hair triggery and don't handle kids playing with them very well.

[Reality]

Can one of you geeks post this link?
http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e923810082&view=att&th=122d1238069b0c4b&attid=0.1&disp=attd&zw

[Ted]

Two things:

Guns don't go off by themselves when the neighbor's kid walks up the sidewalk.

The two pit bulls were trained as family pets. The pit bull WAS BRED FOR AGGRESSION AND FEARLESSNESS. That why it exists. It wasn't bred to be a pet. Doesn't matter whether the owner has a small dick or is a genuinely good person. Each dog has the potential to turn, on anyone. Some don't. Many do, with more frequency and damage than any other breed.

People who own pit bulls either choose them because they want a persona or because they're ignorant. It makes no sense otherwise. Why own a dog that could kill? I have never heard a good reason. Especially not here.

And WoW, the dogs were family pets too. The guy has young children. And after I showed him, and animal control, our dog's wounds, he said, "But Ted, they're so sweet with my kids! You should see them!" Dumbass had no idea how much trouble he could have been in.

[Joe Vancil]

"They're so sweet with my kids...."  Better hope they like *ALL* kids as well as his.

First of all, let me make this perfectly, crystal clear:  I DETEST DOGS.  I'm terrified of them, all of them, from big dobermans to little poodles.  And it wasn't that way until I got bit by one as a little kid.  Not severely bitten - but bitten.

Since then, I've been around several dogs, because Skander and his wife have several and have fostered others through an organization called "Second Chance," my brother has had various dogs - INCLUDING PIT BULLS.  Now, he's got two German Shepard puppies.  And yes, I'm terrified of them, despite the most positive dog memory I have is of a German Shepard that came to our house before I developed my fear of dogs.  It was friendly, and my brother and I grew really attached to it in a very short time.  (Dad listed the found dog in the newspaper or something, and the owner came and claimed it.  And yes, it was the real owner.  Broke my brother's heart.)

No one should ever think that a dog is a "safe" animal - even if it is gentle towards some, and especially not if there are kids in the house.  There's a "pack" mentality in dogs, and a position of dominance will be sought;  it's in the animal's nature.  If there's a weak target, regardless of reason, it'll seek to establish dominance.  This isn't the kind of animal that should be kept as a pet!

Pit Bulls are just like any other dog in this behavior.  And the ones that survive, generation by generation, are the ones that are more aggressive, establish dominance, etc.

If you want a pet, get a cat.  Oh, don't get me wrong - they're dangerous in their own ways, and care has to be taken with them around infants, as well.  But you're not going to hear of the upset cat that killed the 7-year-old from down the street.  Won't happen - unless you're talking about something like this:  http://www.musicsrc.com/video/BRUTAL+CAT+ATTACKS,+FATAL+INJURYS.php?id=9SmISPp7ENM

Cats are the way to go.  Much safer.  Much more graceful and elegant.  Much cooler animals and much better pets.

[Derek Bodner]

Guns don't go off by themselves when the neighbor's kid walks up the sidewalk.

You're more likely to be killed from an accident involving a personal hand gun than a dog.  That's a fact.  And that's talking strictly of accidents, not intentional crime.

And, actually, pit bulls weren't originally bred for dog fighting.  they were bred for bull baiting.  and their parent breeds were chosen more for their physical attributes (low center of gravity, strong jaws, sturdy build) than any personality trait.  Not because they were aggressive and fearless.  Those are both media stereotypes that are not inherent genetically in the breed.

Yes, a dog will try to establish dominance.  That does not make them dangerous, or a weapon.  A dog does not (unless it's abused as a puppy) try to establish dominance by biting and bullying.  They're subtle.  For example, if you're petting a dog and he tries to put his front leg on top of your arm, that's a method.  Dogs do not bite out of dominance.  Furthermore, dominance is typically set within the first year of a dogs life.  A dog that is 8 years old and growling and barking is not doing so out of dominance.

furthermore, new research shows that wolf packs are generally a very close nuclear familiar, and that the mother/father retain "alpha" status over their offspring even after the offspring have achieved maturity.  The idea of "alpha dog" is being found to be more and more fiction by the day. 

A dog does not survive by establishing dominance.  Dogs survive by working together.

The "pack" mentality in dogs is exactly what makes them great pets.  They live with you, not simply sharing the same living space.  They're not just companions, they literally become part of the family.  If you want to experience undying devotion, get a dog.

Anything can be dangerous.  Cats can be dangerous.  Dogs can be dangerous.  A gun can be dangerous.  As can your car, motorcycle, heck even a house can be dangerous if not given the requisite attention.  Dogs are not dangerous if given the proper upbringing.