Did the Cambridgfe Mass. police act stupidly in arresting Harvard Professor

[Lurker]

koast...for a well-educated, professional black man why did Gates act like a kid from the hood when questioned?  If Gates is an "expert" on African-American studies then he should have known how potentially explosive the situation was and taken steps to defuse it.  Instead he took actions that would escalate the situation in any part of this country.  Why didn't he calmly explain the situation instead of reacting with a chip on his shoulder?

And why shouldn't the cop react like he is confronted with a hoodlum when the person acts like one?

[JoMal]

You DO, know, coast, that most cops killed in the line of duty are doing somewhat routine things like traffic stops and answering domestic calls, right?

You DO know that, I hope. We don't have to really explain to you what it means to a cop, which contrary to your tone, often have families and lives they want to keep, while answering calls such as a report of a potential breakin at a neighborhood house, where.....please read this carefully.....THEY HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY WILL BE SHOT AT ONCE!!!!!!!

And do NOT condescend to us like none of us white guys have not be stopped by cops for taillights being out, or a fast lane change - both of which has happened to me and both times I had to convince the policeman I was sober before I could go. Public road tests and all.

If he wanted to be sure that an old black man with a cane and a polo shirt that was tucked in was, you know, NOT A LOOKOUT FOR SOMEONE, please, please tell us exactly how the cop was going to do that without questioning the man, asking for him to prove he belonged there, and ensuring he was not going to be shot in the back as he left just because the guy said everything is fine so go away.

[westkoast]

Lurker I can just the same ask why did the police officer not calmly approach Gates and ask what was going on?  If the cop is an 'expert' at handling situations by talking to people (as per his training) then he should have known how potentially explosive a situation would be if he did in fact approach a middle aged man with a bad hip like a burglar instead of an upstanding member of that community.

I travel quite a bit for work.  Almost every other week at times.  When I get home from a cross country flight the only thing I want to do is go home and relax.  Now you tell me you can't understand why a guy would get upset when he just got back from a flying across the ocean when he is being harassed about being in his own home?  Why shouldn't Gates act like an a-hole if he is confronted with a cop who cannot give a middle aged man who is dressed 'nice' the benefit of the doubt?

Everyone seems to be assuming that this cop would not bend the truth of a story to save his own rear end.  Let's not be naive to thing that the police report is the gospel here.

[Ted]

Koast, you are so off base on this one. Your whole point is that he should have been given the benefit of the doubt. Ridiculous! A potential crime had been reported. You're asking a police officer who knows nothing about the situation (except that "two men were forcing entry to a home") to make a judgement on the situation based on the fact that the guy has a tucked-in polo shirt and a cane. Pure horsesh*t.

He arrives on scene, sees a man through the forced-open door, and instead of busting in and drawing down on the person, he asks "Sir, can you come out here and talk to me?" Seriously? Is that so much to ask?

Let me put this into perspective for you here....and let's save the 'I didn't know middle aged white men can't commit crimes' bs.  You know exactly why the point was made that he was a middle aged man in tucked in polo shirt with a cane.

Well of course I was messing with you. I know what point you were trying to make. My point is, it doesn't matter what he was dressed like. The point you are making makes no sense to me because the cop appears to have tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He didn't see the black man in the house, break down the door, and then find out what's going on. He asked the guy to come talk to him. What is he supposed to do? Respond to the scene, see Gates through the door, and say, oh, he doesn't look like a perp. I'm outta here. Seriously?!?

For all you know the police could have approached him as a robber as oppose to asking him what was going on.

No, I do know. The police officer asked him to come out and talk to him. And by the way, Gates has not disputed ths part of the police officer's account.

I take it you have never been pulled over by yourself or with someone else for something real petty only to have a cop make you jump through hoops for no apparent reason.

No, but I did get royally screwed over by a cop who somehow said it was my fault that an old lady with no insurance backed out of her parking spot and into my car. Luckily we had a friend in the department who tipped us off that the cop knew the lady and basically screwed me over because I was a fully insured 18-year-old kid. Yes, I know cops can suck.

I think a middle aged man, in a tucked in polo shirt, with a cane should be asked 'what happened' and not 'what are you doing here'.

Totally agree with you. Even better than "What happened?" would be "Can you please come out here and talk to me?" Again, facts . . . they help.

It is not against the law to get upset with an officer when you are not committing a crime.

Agreed with one correction. It is against the law to shout at, get belligerent, and resist an officer who is trying to ascertain the facts of a situation.

[Reality]

Bottom line: Gates reacted foolishly by immediately pulling the race card and being belligerent to a police officer responding to a reported crime. All he had to do was say, "Yeah, this is my house. I'm Henry Louis Gates, this is my ID. I just got back from China and lost my keys, so I had to force my door. Thanks for checking in."

Seriously, that's all he had to. If that happens, the officer tips his cap and says good day sir...... Now I'm not saying the officer had to arrest him. He didn't. From his refusal you can tell he's proud and quite sure he was in the right. There's no reason to give that kind of cop a reason to cuff you. Turning yourself into a martyr in front of onlookers, calling the cop a racist in front of onlookers . . . ridiculous.

Besides the accounts you posted, if Al Sharpton and the other shister get involved (Jackson), then i will know the professor acted foolishly.

You guys carry on your discussion with westkoasts deep counter thoughts.  

[Ted]

Lurker I can just the same ask why did the police officer not calmly approach Gates and ask what was going on?

Undisputable evidence that you either do not know or do not care about the facts.

READ THE REPORTS. READ GATES' ATTORNEY'S STATEMENTS. They do not contradict each other on this point. The police officer asked Gates if he would come out and talk to him on the porch.

WHAT THE F*** ELSE WOULD YOU HAVE HIM DO.

[Ted]

You guys carry on your discussion with westkoasts deep counter thoughts.  

I'm trying, but he hasn't read much about it. That's the only conclusion I can come to.

[westkoast]

You DO, know, coast, that most cops killed in the line of duty are doing somewhat routine things like traffic stops and answering domestic calls, right?

Again, irrelevant.  What does that have to do with an unarmed, middle aged man who walks with a cane?  Nothing. If you are trying to argue that this was a routine stop that he could have been shot at, it wasn't.  Clearly he knew the man was unarmed when he arrested him.

You DO know that, I hope. We don't have to really explain to you what it means to a cop, which contrary to your tone, often have families and lives they want to keep, while answering calls such as a report of a potential breakin at a neighborhood house, where.....please read this carefully.....THEY HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY WILL BE SHOT AT ONCE!!!!!!!

Are we talking about a middle aged man with a bad hip or are we talking about some teenage street thug?  Was it Slim Shady with one pant leg rolled up trying to break into the house?  Was it 50 Cent's clone out their yelling 'WHAT UP GANGSTA' as he ran sacked the house?  No.  So again, whatever you are trying to say here is irrelevant to what we are discussing because there was not even one shred of evidence that says the cop should have approached the situation as such.  I guess when a cop shoots an unarmed man you also agree because 'who knows if that wallet was actually a gun!!'

And do NOT condescend to us like none of us white guys have not be stopped by cops for taillights being out, or a fast lane change - both of which has happened to me and both times I had to convince the policeman I was sober before I could go. Public road tests and all.  

Um, I am white.  I never said it didn't happen to white guys.  Based on the way Ted and yourself were answering it had been almost like a cop has never annoyed you for pulling you over for a BS reason only to start being a prick over unrelated things to why he/she pulled you over.

The fact that you had the convince the policeman you were not drunk is exactly what I am talking about.  You are telling me you were not even the slightest bit annoyed you had to jump through hoops for the officer?  Now imagine this happened while you were on your own property and just got back from a long overseas flight.  

If he wanted to be sure that an old black man with a cane and a polo shirt that was tucked in was, you know, NOT A LOOKOUT FOR SOMEONE, please, please tell us exactly how the cop was going to do that without questioning the man, asking for him to prove he belonged there, and ensuring he was not going to be shot in the back as he left just because the guy said everything is fine so go away.

Because when the cop showed up the guy did not try to run off?  Or didn't yell, whistle, or anything else a look out would do.  Cops are trained to pick up on such things.

Why did the police officer not leave after being shown the ID?  Because his ego was bruised and he wanted to stick it to Gates.  I've already repeated this MANY times in this thread.  The fact that a cop can take it upon him/herself to punish someone when they get in a disagreement is what is not ok.  That would be like me deciding since we don't agree in this thread that I am going to drag you out of your chair at work, take you to get your finger prints done, a nice mugshot of you, and make you wait until your wife could come pick you up.  My justification can be anything if I do what cops do.  They purposely bend definitions and rules to punish people who do not 'respect their authori-tie'

[westkoast]

Lurker I can just the same ask why did the police officer not calmly approach Gates and ask what was going on?

Undisputable evidence that you either do not know or do not care about the facts.

READ THE REPORTS. READ GATES' ATTORNEY'S STATEMENTS. They do not contradict each other on this point. The police officer asked Gates if he would come out and talk to him on the porch.

WHAT THE F*** ELSE WOULD YOU HAVE HIM DO.

He was arrested AFTER he produced his ID.  Maybe you haven't read up as much as you thought.  By the way, there is more than ONE side to this story.  You keep focusing in on a police report written by someone who was in the disagreement and then try to pretend like there would be no bias.  Let's not be silly here Ted.

Like I said, Talk Radio has covered this constantly for the past week.  I've listened to the break down from both sides here.  PLENTY OF TIMES.  Just because I don't agree with you and am not naive enough to think a police report would not ever be written to save a cops rear end doesn't mean I know nothing of what happened.

[westkoast]

Koast, you are so off base on this one. Your whole point is that he should have been given the benefit of the doubt. Ridiculous! A potential crime had been reported. You're asking a police officer who knows nothing about the situation (except that "two men were forcing entry to a home") to make a judgement on the situation based on the fact that the guy has a tucked-in polo shirt and a cane. Pure horsesh*t.

He arrives on scene, sees a man through the forced-open door, and instead of busting in and drawing down on the person, he asks "Sir, can you come out here and talk to me?" Seriously? Is that so much to ask?

WTF?  THIS IS NOT what happened.  Did you even see the picture of him being arrested? 




 He was in still partially standing in his door frame.  The officer DID NOT just walk up and say 'let me see your ID' then asked him to step outside to be arrested.  If that was the case it would have been even WORSE.  The cop approached him, they got into an argument, eventually the ID was provided, when Gates kept asking for the badge number and yelling out the 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM PHRASE' that is when he was asked to step outside THEN was arrested.

You have your facts all mixed up buddy.  Maybe you should have listened to BOTH sides.

"Gates told the officer he lived there and showed him his Massachusetts driver's license and Harvard University identification card. The officer followed him into his house and said he had received a report of a possible break-in, the lawyer said. Gates grew frustrated that the officer was continuing to question him in his home and asked for the officer's name and badge number, Ogletree said."

AFTER he asked him to come outside is when they arrested him.....facts.  They are important.

"Gates refused to step outside to speak with the officer, the police report said, and when Crowley told Gates that he was investigating a possible break-in, Gates opened the front door and exclaimed, "Why, because I'm a black man in America?" the report said."

Now for the bold....

"While I was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence, I was quite surprised and confused with the behavior he exhibited toward me," he said, according to the report."

That right there should have been the end of it.  The fact he had a 'reaction' to his behavior is what prompted the arrest.  His ego was bruised.  Much like Gates was.  The difference is Gates couldn't do anything but request a badge number.  The cop did actually take him down to the station and treated him like a criminal.

[Ted]

Again, irrelevant.  What does that have to do with an unarmed, middle aged man who walks with a cane?  Nothing.

That's a lot for a cop to ascertain looking in to the house through a plate glass door. Whether a guy is unarmed, his age, whether he has criminal impulses in mind.

Are we talking about a middle aged man with a bad hip or are we talking about some teenage street thug?  Was it Slim Shady with one pant leg rolled up trying to break into the house?  Was it 50 Cent's clone out their yelling 'WHAT UP GANGSTA' as he ran sacked the house?

Golly Koast. Sure sounds like you're guilty of racial profiling there. Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off. That's right, I spelled it out. I felt the situation called for it.

The fact that you had the convince the policeman you were not drunk is exactly what I am talking about.  You are telling me you were not even the slightest bit annoyed you had to jump through hoops for the officer?  Now imagine this happened while you were on your own property and just got back from a long overseas flight.

Lost my mom and sister to drunk driver. So . . . NO. I would not be annoyed if a policeman wanted to make sure I was not drunk. I'd thank him for doing his effing job.

Why did the police officer not leave after being shown the ID?  Because his ego was bruised and he wanted to stick it to Gates.  I've already repeated this MANY times in this thread.

I don't know how long I can keep this up. The officer did, in fact, start walking out the door after seeing the ID. Gates followed him out the door and began making a martyr of himself to the neighborhood. Now perhaps a perfect man, would walk to his cruiser and drive away. But Gates pushed this police officer plenty far. Again, READ THE REPORTS!!

[westkoast]

That's a lot for a cop to ascertain looking in to the house through a plate glass door. Whether a guy is unarmed, his age, whether he has criminal impulses in mind.

Now you are straight adding your own take to this.  There is nowhere in the police report that says this.

Golly Koast. Sure sounds like you're guilty of racial profiling there. Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off. That's right, I spelled it out. I felt the situation called for it.

Um Slim Shady = a white guy dressed like a thug (also known as EMINEM) 50 Cent = a black guy dressed like a thug.  See the two examples are not racial but based on dress and appearance.   Let's me show you in pictures....

Now if these two guys were trying to break into a door, makes sense that they would be asked differently than say....(oh btw this is a picture of SLIM SHADY and 50 CENT, the guys I used as examples, I purposely used both WHITE and BLACK guys to get my point across)




Someone like this...


So no, I wasn't racial profiling.  If anything I was discriminating based on age and dress.  Good try though Ted but still going to give you the FAIL stamp for doing the typical 'no THE OTHER person (in this case me and not the cop) is being racist' bs.

Lost my mom and sister to drunk driver. So . . . NO. I would not be annoyed if a policeman wanted to make sure I was not drunk. I'd thank him for doing his effing job.

That's a specific instance based on an unfortunate family event.  To those of us who have not had those types of events happen to us it is very annoying to be treated like you are breaking the law when you are in fact not.  When a cop pulls me over for a crack in my windshield I don't want to be asked 'do you have an illegal substances in the car' right off the bat.

I don't know how long I can keep this up. The officer did, in fact, start walking out the door after seeing the ID. Gates followed him out the door and began making a martyr of himself to the neighborhood. Now perhaps a perfect man, would walk to his cruiser and drive away. But Gates pushed this police officer plenty far. Again, READ THE REPORTS!!

No, you are wrong.  He walked INTO the house after seeing the ID.

"Gates told the officer he lived there and showed him his Massachusetts driver's license and Harvard University identification card. The officer followed him into his house and said he had received a report of a possible break-in, the lawyer said. Gates grew frustrated that the officer was continuing to question him in his home and asked for the officer's name and badge number," Ogletree said.

[Ted]

WTF?  THIS IS NOT what happened.  Did you even see the picture of him being arrested? 

I'm guessing that you're showing us this picture because you assume this is the moment that Gates was arrested. How cute. If you had read the police report, you would remember that the police initially cuffed Gates with his hands behind his back. And after Gates said he couldn't walk without a cane, Crowley instructed another officer to change the cuffs so Gates' hands were in front of him. Crowley then went into the house and got a cane for Gates. Sorry Koasty, this picture, while indicative of the demeanor of the two people involved, says nothing about "where" Gates was actually arrested.

And by the way, I have read both accounts. There are only two major parts that Gates disputes:

1. Whether the police officer identified himself.
2. Whether Gates yelled as much as Crowley says he did.

But your photo (and thanks for helping me with my point) seems to indicate that Gates was doing some yelling on the porch. Here's an interesting article on why Gates was really arrested. Which, please remember, had nothing to do with the report of burglary.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-oped0726pagejul26,0,7040077.story

[Laker Fan]

Pardon me, but the Harvard Law Professor asked for the policeman's badge number and he refused.  THAT IS AGAINST THE LAW!  Regarldess of anything else, an anonymous tip about a home break in the police officer is required to identify himself.

Now a normal layman might have handled things differently, but in this case it was a Harvard Law Professor, someone who knows the law better than anyone else in Boston.

Talk about not knowing the facts or speaking before you do! Gates IS NOT A LAW PROFESSOR!!!! He has no law degree and he knows NOTHING about law in or outside of Boston. He is a black studies professor, and a rather well known race baiter. Had he known the law as you suggest, he would have known it is AGAINST THE LAW to confront an officer investigating a possible crime. Had he merely cooperated with the officer, whom I might add TEACHES a class on how NOT to profile, would have no doubt would have peacefully left after the matter was cleared up. As an aside, the 911 tape reveals that the caller NEVER identified either of the men she saw as being black, so his screaming about profiling, almost as soon as he saw the police was his problem, not the cops.

Your calling this clown a law professor when he has an English lit degree just tells me you like to spout off without the facts, and while they are not all available, that fact is on Harvard's website.

[Ted]

The last sentence of the Chicago Trib article I just posted rings very true to me:

In that sense, Crowley and the other officers probably never expected Gates' arrest to hold up and it didn't. Now people across the country, including me, are arguing about what happened as if we were there in Gates' house and can read the minds of everyone involved. Based on our own experiences, it is easy to feel as if we were, even when we only fool ourselves.

It will be interesting when and if the Cambridge police department releases the tapes they have of Crowley relaying information back to dispatch with Gates yelling at the officer in the background. Maybe Obama's beer party can smooth things over and make it all go away.