Shaq to Cleveland is official

[westkoast]

Cavs won't make it to the finals next season, mark my words.

[WayOutWest]

Cavs won't make it to the finals next season, mark my words.

With Shaq they surpass the Magic IMO, Howard is so limited offensively that he will get very average numbers (10/10).  The problem for both those teams is going to be a healthy Boston Celtics.  A healthy Celtic squad should own the weak EC.

[westkoast]

Cavs won't make it to the finals next season, mark my words.

With Shaq they surpass the Magic IMO, Howard is so limited offensively that he will get very average numbers (10/10).  The problem for both those teams is going to be a healthy Boston Celtics.  A healthy Celtic squad should own the weak EC.

Why would they surpass the Magic if the positions they got torched at were the 3 and 4?  Did you have some of Reality's coffee today?  Howard only beat the Magic in the post in the last game to close out the series.  The rest of the time it was Hedo and Rashard who abused the Cavs.

Besides in crunch time they are going to bring Lebron up from the top of the key and clear out.  Shaq is not going to sit in the lane and he can't shoot jumpers on a kick out, don't see how this puts them over the top.

[Lurker]

Cavs won't make it to the finals next season, mark my words.

With Shaq they surpass the Magic IMO, Howard is so limited offensively that he will get very average numbers (10/10).  The problem for both those teams is going to be a healthy Boston Celtics.  A healthy Celtic squad should own the weak EC.

Why would they surpass the Magic if the positions they got torched at were the 3 and 4?  Did you have some of Reality's coffee today?  Howard only beat the Magic in the post in the last game to close out the series.  The rest of the time it was Hedo and Rashard who abused the Cavs.

Besides in crunch time they are going to bring Lebron up from the top of the key and clear out.  Shaq is not going to sit in the lane and he can't shoot jumpers on a kick out, don't see how this puts them over the top.

Howard averaged 25+ points on 65% against Cleveland in the playoffs.  Howard has only scored over 20 ONCE against Shaq and averages around 15-16 ppg on lower shooting %.  Howard's rebounding numbers are lower vs Shaq also.  Not to mention Howard's propensity for fouls...look what the Lakers were able to do by having an inside game. 

Lower Howard's efficiency + potentially lower his time on the floor = Better chance for Cavs to win


Then Hollinger also mentioned a little tidbit...Shaq seems more motivated when he first hits town.  Plus add in the extra motivation to get another ring to surpass Kobe AND Duncan then Shaq to Cavs looks like a good deal.

[westkoast]

Cavs won't make it to the finals next season, mark my words.

With Shaq they surpass the Magic IMO, Howard is so limited offensively that he will get very average numbers (10/10).  The problem for both those teams is going to be a healthy Boston Celtics.  A healthy Celtic squad should own the weak EC.

Why would they surpass the Magic if the positions they got torched at were the 3 and 4?  Did you have some of Reality's coffee today?  Howard only beat the Magic in the post in the last game to close out the series.  The rest of the time it was Hedo and Rashard who abused the Cavs.

Besides in crunch time they are going to bring Lebron up from the top of the key and clear out.  Shaq is not going to sit in the lane and he can't shoot jumpers on a kick out, don't see how this puts them over the top.

Howard averaged 25+ points on 65% against Cleveland in the playoffs.  Howard has only scored over 20 ONCE against Shaq and averages around 15-16 ppg on lower shooting %.  Howard's rebounding numbers are lower vs Shaq also.  Not to mention Howard's propensity for fouls...look what the Lakers were able to do by having an inside game. 

Lower Howard's efficiency + potentially lower his time on the floor = Better chance for Cavs to win


Then Hollinger also mentioned a little tidbit...Shaq seems more motivated when he first hits town.  Plus add in the extra motivation to get another ring to surpass Kobe AND Duncan then Shaq to Cavs looks like a good deal.

That's great stats Lurker but it wasn't just Howard who did the damage so my point that this doesn't put them past the Magic still stands.   Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu torched the Cavs and that's why they beat em so swiftly.  Not to mention.....are those numbers based on 2 games from last year?  I would hope so because using numbers from 2 years ago in the mix  from a big man at the very end of his career would be silly.  Add to the fact that Howard was 20 years old then and his game has improved since.

I find it hard to believe and just assume that Shaq, who is older, will hold steady on those numbers when Dwight Howard has improved, is much younger, and they only played TWICE against each other this season.  Much different than seeing him 4 times in the regular season and up to 7 games in the playoffs while being 36 years old.  Unless the Cavs rest him quite a bit like the Suns did it really won't even matter come playoff time anyways.

Look what the Lakers were able to do with an inside game using FINESSE (Shaq cannot score like Pau can on a consistent basis and his speed is long gone) and with a guy who could chase around Rashard Lewis AND a guy who could defend Hedo on the perimeter.  Are we just going to pretend like the Lakers don't match up much better with the Magic than the Cavs do?  The Lakers were able to defeat the Magic swiftly because Rashard Lewis was kept quiet for two games, Hedo didn't quite go off, Kobe Bryant couldn't be guarded, and the Lakers big men (specifically Pau) did their thing inside.  Even then it was PLURAL when it came to work in the post.  Odom, Bynum, and others helped on double teams at times.

[WayOutWest]

That's great stats Lurker but it wasn't just Howard who did the damage so my point that this doesn't put them past the Magic still stands.   Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu torched the Cavs and that's why they beat em so swiftly.  Not to mention.....are those numbers based on 2 games from last year?  I would hope so because using numbers from 2 years ago in the mix  from a big man at the very end of his career would be silly.  Add to the fact that Howard was 20 years old then and his game has improved since.

I'll keep it civil.    With Shaq on Howard they will not have to double team Howard.  Why were the Magic shooters wide open?  Because the Cavs had to help on Howard to keep him from going for 30/15.  With Shaq containing Howard by himself, not because Shaq is all that good a defender but moreso because Howard is such a limited over-hyped offensive player.  The size of the Magic hurt the Cavs but in the front court the Cavs should matchup fine and LeBron will be able to check either Rashard or Hedo better than the Lakers did and that will only leave one of the Magic 3-point shooters free.  Try to look past the obvious wk, it's about containing Howard so the Cavs defense can play their normal game instead of scrambling to help on Howard and leaving the Magic shooters wide open from the behind the arc.

I find it hard to believe and just assume that Shaq, who is older, will hold steady on those numbers when Dwight Howard has improved, is much younger, and they only played TWICE against each other this season.  Much different than seeing him 4 times in the regular season and up to 7 games in the playoffs while being 36 years old.  Unless the Cavs rest him quite a bit like the Suns did it really won't even matter come playoff time anyways.

As much as Howard has improved he is so limited offensively yet he still forced the Cavs to double, that will not be necesary with Shaq in the paint.  Those averages are for 5 or 7 games I beleive.  IMO the Cavs will rest Shaq and keep him fresh for the playoffs, that will be VERY easy to do with Big Z still on the squad, in fact it's going to help both players since they both have a lot of milage and injury histories.  IMO excellent short term move and it makes them better than the Magic, the only thing that could flip that upside down is dependent on how well Jameer bounces back from injury.  Jameer might be enough to keep the Magic in the mix by breaking down the Cavs defense and allowing the Magic shooters the same looks they got from the Howard double teams.

[westkoast]

That's great stats Lurker but it wasn't just Howard who did the damage so my point that this doesn't put them past the Magic still stands.   Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu torched the Cavs and that's why they beat em so swiftly.  Not to mention.....are those numbers based on 2 games from last year?  I would hope so because using numbers from 2 years ago in the mix  from a big man at the very end of his career would be silly.  Add to the fact that Howard was 20 years old then and his game has improved since.

I'll keep it civil.    With Shaq on Howard they will not have to double team Howard.  Why were the Magic shooters wide open?  Because the Cavs had to help on Howard to keep him from going for 30/15.  With Shaq containing Howard by himself, not because Shaq is all that good a defender but moreso because Howard is such a limited over-hyped offensive player.  The size of the Magic hurt the Cavs but in the front court the Cavs should matchup fine and LeBron will be able to check either Rashard or Hedo better than the Lakers did and that will only leave one of the Magic 3-point shooters free.  Try to look past the obvious wk, it's about containing Howard so the Cavs defense can play their normal game instead of scrambling to help on Howard and leaving the Magic shooters wide open from the behind the arc.

I find it hard to believe and just assume that Shaq, who is older, will hold steady on those numbers when Dwight Howard has improved, is much younger, and they only played TWICE against each other this season.  Much different than seeing him 4 times in the regular season and up to 7 games in the playoffs while being 36 years old.  Unless the Cavs rest him quite a bit like the Suns did it really won't even matter come playoff time anyways.

As much as Howard has improved he is so limited offensively yet he still forced the Cavs to double, that will not be necesary with Shaq in the paint.  Those averages are for 5 or 7 games I beleive.  IMO the Cavs will rest Shaq and keep him fresh for the playoffs, that will be VERY easy to do with Big Z still on the squad, in fact it's going to help both players since they both have a lot of milage and injury histories.  IMO excellent short term move and it makes them better than the Magic, the only thing that could flip that upside down is dependent on how well Jameer bounces back from injury.  Jameer might be enough to keep the Magic in the mix by breaking down the Cavs defense and allowing the Magic shooters the same looks they got from the Howard double teams.

So the person I was hoping to bait to get a FIERY basketball debate going is going to 'keep it civil' 

That would make sense that they wouldn't have to double ASSUMING that Shaq can play 30 minutes a game at a high level for an entire series and Howard does not improve his game.

Everyone was saying the same thing about Shaq during the Suns trade "oh they are going to win a title now" "The Suns don't have to double in the post" "He is going to make life easy for Nash"  Yet, like I said then, it was not going to get them a title.  The Cavs WILL NOT get a title with Shaq.  In fact I think they crippled themselves by getting this massive contract at a time when they are suppose to be rebuilding to keep Lebron.   He wants to win now and with Shaq's contract they won't be able to add shooters they need.

[WayOutWest]

So the person I was hoping to bait to get a FIERY basketball debate going is going to 'keep it civil' 

Pahleeze...you are so beneath my b-ball level that I dont' feel the need to bother with you.  Debating baskeball with Joe..maybe...Lurker...fo sure...JoMal....I can only dream...

That would make sense that they wouldn't have to double ASSUMING that Shaq can play 30 minutes a game at a high level for an entire series and Howard does not improve his game.

I don't think Shaq has to play at a "high level", Howard is NOT that good, Perkins OWNED him, Howard typically took a running hook shot going AWAY from the basket.

Everyone was saying the same thing about Shaq during the Suns trade "oh they are going to win a title now" "The Suns don't have to double in the post" "He is going to make life easy for Nash"  Yet, like I said then, it was not going to get them a title.  The Cavs WILL NOT get a title with Shaq.  In fact I think they crippled themselves by getting this massive contract at a time when they are suppose to be rebuilding to keep Lebron.   He wants to win now and with Shaq's contract they won't be able to add shooters they need.

The problem with Shaq and the Suns was the difference in style between the player and the club plus they gave up some very good talent to get him.  Factor in the injuries and it wasn't as much Shaq's fault as the Suns were victims of circumstance.  With the Cavs it's a much different scenario, their slow, plodding, half court style fits Shaq perfectly adn they didn't have to give up any real contributors from the team to get him. Obviously the flip side is Shaq is a couple of years older from his "finished" date, the slight glimmer is the numbers he put up last year playing a controlled pace of games.  I think it's an excellent move with the only risk being the one you mentioned, Shaq's contract.

[westkoast]

Pahleeze...you are so beneath my b-ball level that I dont' feel the need to bother with you.  Debating baskeball with Joe..maybe...Lurker...fo sure...JoMal....I can only dream...

Only in your own Tequila filled cabasa senor.

I don't think Shaq has to play at a "high level", Howard is NOT that good, Perkins OWNED him, Howard typically took a running hook shot going AWAY from the basket.

If he is going to have to defend Dwight Howard, rebound, protect the paint, and chip in points wise....he is going to have to play at a high level.  The Cavs should have been swept.  You are telling me Shaq doesn't have to play at a high level to get past an Orlando team when he is the only addition to this team from last year?  Logically how does that make any sense?

Perkins is faster than Shaq and that's why he gave him problems.  Shaq is not that mobile and will not be able to be super mobile for an entire game like Perkins is.  Do you want me to remind you that we are in 2009 and not 2003?

The problem with Shaq and the Suns was the difference in style between the player and the club plus they gave up some very good talent to get him.  Factor in the injuries and it wasn't as much Shaq's fault as the Suns were victims of circumstance.  With the Cavs it's a much different scenario, their slow, plodding, half court style fits Shaq perfectly adn they didn't have to give up any real contributors from the team to get him. Obviously the flip side is Shaq is a couple of years older from his "finished" date, the slight glimmer is the numbers he put up last year playing a controlled pace of games.  I think it's an excellent move with the only risk being the one you mentioned, Shaq's contract.

While you are correct in saying that his style of play slammed up against the Suns style of play prior to his arrival he is going to clog up the middle just the same.  Part of the reason the Suns did not adjust well is he operates in the paint, that is it.  For guys like Nash or in this instance Lebron, who are DEADLY in the paint both finishing and passing wise, it makes a difference.  The Cavs bread and butter play in crunch time is to have Lebron bring the ball up from the floor and do his thing from the top of the key with a clear out.  Now granted they could get a few easy dunks *IF* Shaq's man doubles off and Shaq is quick enough to move into position.  Though fouling him and sending him to the line is MUCH better than fouling Lebron or letting him slam one home.

As for Howard fouling, why doesn't this apply to Shaq again?  He has had trouble with this the last few years because he tries to bull doze 95% of the time rather than use quickness (since it's left him)

If they do not win the title this year then Lebron is as good as gone.  Why wouldn't he?  They are not going to be able to get players in place before that summer due to Shaq's contract.  If Shaq doesn't retire after this season then they won't have room to do it even if they re-sign Lebron to a massive contract. 

[Lurker]

And Howard...who fouls at one of the highest rates in the NBA...will have to guard Shaq plus protect the paint from LBJ.  Stop focusing on one end of the court, realkoast!

[Joe Vancil]

This is an excellent move by Cleveland.  And in my opinion, it vaults them over Orlando easily.

Orlando is Dwight Howard and a team of jump-shooters.  Live by the jumper, die by the jumper.  And now, it's Dwight Howard guarded by a better defender and still a team of jump-shooters.  Have we forgotten than when guarded, the Magic pretty much collapsed against the Lakers?

Cleveland needed scoring.  They just got scoring.  They needed a person capable of drawing a double team.  They got a person capable of drawing a double team.  They needed a player whose contract expires at the end of the year.  They got a player whose contract expires at the end of the year.  WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THIS DEAL?

[westkoast]

And Howard...who fouls at one of the highest rates in the NBA...will have to guard Shaq plus protect the paint from LBJ.  Stop focusing on one end of the court, realkoast!

But again Lurker, it wasn't Howard who did a majority of the damage, it was Rashard Lewis and Hedo.

Shaq is 37 as well.  I don't quite see where you all think he is going to dominate for an entire season AND in the playoffs.  The last time he won a title he wasn't even healthy enough to play in the first 2 rounds to make an impact.  That was 3 years ago....

[Joe Vancil]

And last year, Cleveland didn't lose a game in the first two rounds.  Perfect fit!

[westkoast]

And last year, Cleveland didn't lose a game in the first two rounds.  Perfect fit!

But they got torched at the 3 and 4 in the next round being lucky to win a single game in the series.

Can someone explain to me how this shoots them over Orlando when they still have no answer for Hedo and Lewis?  No one has yet to answer that.  The only response I got is Shaq *might* be able to slow down Dwight Howard.  It was Rashard Lewis and Hedo's shooting that was the difference in the series, NOT HOWARD.

By the way, why would Shaq command a double team each time he's on the floor?  You single cover Shaq with the intent that he takes shots away from Lebron James and let him gas himself trying to score. 

.  Have we forgotten than when guarded, the Magic pretty much collapsed against the Lakers?

Have you forgotten that Shaq plays the 5 and not the 3/4?  Maybe you need to check ya own memory.  Those shooters were guarded by Odom (who is very similar to Rashard Lewis in size and athletic ability) and Ariza (who is a solid perimeter defender)  How does THIS trade mean they will guard OUTSIDE players better Joe?

[Joe Vancil]

Actually, I answered the question about Hedo and Lewis by stating that perimeter-oriented teams - jump-shooting teams - are going to always be plagued by the live-or-die by the jumper mentality, and in the end, the result is always DIE.  The reason Orlando beat Cleveland is because Cleveland was *ALSO* a perimeter-oriented jump-shooting team.  They no longer have to be.  By getting Shaq, you're no longer likely to see long periods of all jumpers.

As for letting Shaq "gas himself trying to score," I think that's a bad strategy.  He'll be shooting in, at worst, the high 50's doing that.  That's a whole lot better than Cleveland's typical offense.  And Shaq wearing himself out leaves a certain other player free to rest.  And finally, I've *NEVER* seen Shaq too tired to shoot.  *NEVER*.

As for defensively, I think you're good to go with James covering Lewis, West covering Turkoglu (despite the height difference) - going with a "small" line-up anchored by Shaq.  Turkoglu is turnover-prone, which makes West the natural guy to put on him.  And Cleveland now has a "win now" mentality, so you suspect they'll use their MLE to pick up another 2/3 combo defender.  And I still maintain that Szczerbiak needs to see some minutes, because he's a better defender than most give him credit for, and can still shoot well enough to be a floor-spacing type player.

Finally, I expect the team to ADJUST to Magic, which was something they didn't try at all this time around.

However - let me say this - Orlando is close to completing ANOTHER deal - one which lands them Vince Carter for Alston, Lee, and Battie.  That gives them EVEN MORE firepower.  So I'm not casting ANYTHING in stone until next pre-season.