Author Topic: Jameer Nelson trying to return to the Magic lineup durring the NBA Finals  (Read 5347 times)

Offline Derek Bodner

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A positive for a basketball team doesn't automatically make it a negative for the opposing team if it's not going to effect them that much

Then, again, why is it a positive for the magic?

If a player coming back means nothing to the opponent then it's not a positive IMO.  It's an irrelevant.

Offline westkoast

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A positive for a basketball team doesn't automatically make it a negative for the opposing team if it's not going to effect them that much

Then, again, why is it a positive for the magic?

If a player coming back means nothing to the opponent then it's not a positive IMO.  It's an irrelevant.

For the same exact reason it was a positive for the Lakers when Ariza came back, they saw a member of their team come back that has been side lined for a while.  They got a boost that another defender was coming in who could chase Paul Pierce but that did not happen and I don't think PP was shaking in his boots either.  The Celtics were not worried about Ariza for many reasons, one being he just got back from a foot injury and your feet are important to a defender so it wasn't a negative.  The Lakers were happy to get another body regardless so it was a positive.   The Lakers needed to match their defense with the Celtics to keep up since they were out matched, Ariza is a defender.

The Magic would be happy to get another person who can score on the floor but I don't think the Lakers are shaking in their boots because he just got back from a shoulder injury and your shoulder is very important when it comes to shooting/finishing at the rim.  The Magic need to play offense to keep up with the Lakers (since neither team is going to stop each other ) since the Lakers have the better offense, Nelson is a scorer.

Again, you can have a positive on a team and not have it be a negative to an opponent.  I've given you many examples DB.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 03:42:32 PM by westkoast »
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Offline rickortreat

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For the exact reason you said, a hobbled Nelson is not going to make a difference.  Having him back to give them a confidence boost is not a 'negative' to the Lakers because I see it has having a real impact

then how is it a positive for the magic?

A positive for a basketball team doesn't automatically make it a negative for the opposing team if it's not going to effect them that much (or at all in some cases)  That was my point with the Bynum example of LA looking for a better brace for him.

Ariza came back for the finals last year and that was a 'positive' for the Lakers but meant nothing to the Celtics.  Not that Ariza and Nelson have/had the same role.  Just another example....

What kind of logic is that!?  If Jameer is the best point they have, and he comes in as a back-up to Alston, he replaces AJ and his minutes.  That puts more pressure on the Lakers defense, since he can get by any guard the Lakers put on him.  It's not just for him to get to the basket, but to draw the defense in to kick the ball back out to the the 3 point-line or get Lewis or Hedo an inside shot.

A positive for one team is intrinsically a negative for the opponent. Whether it's significant enough to alter the outcome in series depends on how effective he can be.

Hypothetical scenario, Jameer has worked his way back into the starting line-up for Orlando in game 7 and lights up LA like he did in the regular season. Orlando wins the title.  That would be a big negative for the Lakers wouldn't you say?

It's a no-loose situation for Orlando. If he can play well it's a plus, it he can't they're not any worse off then they were when they didn't think he was going to play.

Offline Derek Bodner

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They got a boost that another defender was coming in who could chase Paul Pierce but that did not happen and I don't think PP was shaking in his boots either.

So, again, if they got a boost because they had another defender and a morale boost from a member of their team coming back, it did help them.

If it helped them, it hurt the opposition.

It may not be SIGNIFICANT, it may not be a determining factor, but it still hurt.

I guess we're just splitting hairs here.

Offline westkoast

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For the exact reason you said, a hobbled Nelson is not going to make a difference.  Having him back to give them a confidence boost is not a 'negative' to the Lakers because I see it has having a real impact

then how is it a positive for the magic?

A positive for a basketball team doesn't automatically make it a negative for the opposing team if it's not going to effect them that much (or at all in some cases)  That was my point with the Bynum example of LA looking for a better brace for him.

Ariza came back for the finals last year and that was a 'positive' for the Lakers but meant nothing to the Celtics.  Not that Ariza and Nelson have/had the same role.  Just another example....

What kind of logic is that!?  If Jameer is the best point they have, and he comes in as a back-up to Alston, he replaces AJ and his minutes.  That puts more pressure on the Lakers defense, since he can get by any guard the Lakers put on him.  It's not just for him to get to the basket, but to draw the defense in to kick the ball back out to the the 3 point-line or get Lewis or Hedo an inside shot.

A positive for one team is intrinsically a negative for the opponent. Whether it's significant enough to alter the outcome in series depends on how effective he can be.

Hypothetical scenario, Jameer has worked his way back into the starting line-up for Orlando in game 7 and lights up LA like he did in the regular season. Orlando wins the title.  That would be a big negative for the Lakers wouldn't you say?

It's a no-loose situation for Orlando. If he can play well it's a plus, it he can't they're not any worse off then they were when they didn't think he was going to play.

Rick, please don't play the logic card.  You are the poster who said that P will have an easier time guarding Kobe even though Kobe is the much better offensive weapon between Lebron and himself.

You are ASSUMING he is going to come in and be a positive.  You are also ASSUMING the Lakers would change their entire preparation for the Magic based on Nelson  coming back to play 10 minutes a game.

Nelson WAS their best point guard.  Right now, coming off an injury, you cannot say that.  No one has seen him play in a pro game in 6 months.

Using a hypothetical situation can be used in plenty of spots.  Two can play at that game Rick.  What if Nelson comes back in Game 1 and hurts his shoulder all over again?  He's out for half of the next season and doesn't come back the same.  Is it still a negative for the Lakers?  There is a much higher chance that Nelson is going to be rusty than he is going to drop 35 in a game 7.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 03:48:28 PM by westkoast »
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Offline westkoast

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They got a boost that another defender was coming in who could chase Paul Pierce but that did not happen and I don't think PP was shaking in his boots either.

So, again, if they got a boost because they had another defender and a morale boost from a member of their team coming back, it did help them.

If it helped them, it hurt the opposition.

It may not be SIGNIFICANT, it may not be a determining factor, but it still hurt.

I guess we're just splitting hairs here.

Ariza did nothing against PP last year and I have no doubt in my mind PP couldn't have cared less which Laker was going to play him.
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Offline Lurker

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I agreee with the Philly fans.  Even if it is just a morale boost to the Magic...anything that helps gives Orlando an edge has to be considered negative for LA.

Just like the morale boost Spurs opponents get when they see Joey Crawford assigned to a the game.  A positive for them; a negative for the Spurs.
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Personally, I hope Nelson comes back for the Finals, but not for any effect he will have on the series (if any).  He was a key element of getting this team off on the right foot, and that's a big part of the reason that they're in the Finals, so I want him to be able to play - even if it's just for a minute at garbage time - because it may be the only time he ever gets the chance.

I feel the same way about him having to miss the All-Star Game.

As for his impact?  Ask Seattle if they fared better when a crippled Nate McMillan took the floor.  Or heck, just ask a Knick fan about Willis Reed.  Want to energize a crowd that's down 0-2, and starting to struggle in game 3 or 4?  PUT IN JAMEER NELSON.  Even if it's only for 10 seconds, the energy boost will still be phenomenal.  That's a plus for Orlando, and a minus for Los Angeles.
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Ariza did nothing against PP last year and I have no doubt in my mind PP couldn't have cared less which Laker was going to play him.

Then it didn't help the lakers.[

that's my point.

Offline westkoast

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Ariza did nothing against PP last year and I have no doubt in my mind PP couldn't have cared less which Laker was going to play him.

Then it didn't help the lakers.[

that's my point.

Sure it did.  They had another body out there who could provide coverage on PP while a person like Kobe could guard a less talented person to conserve energy.  It helped but it didn't get the job done.
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Offline rickortreat

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For the exact reason you said, a hobbled Nelson is not going to make a difference.  Having him back to give them a confidence boost is not a 'negative' to the Lakers because I see it has having a real impact

then how is it a positive for the magic?

A positive for a basketball team doesn't automatically make it a negative for the opposing team if it's not going to effect them that much (or at all in some cases)  That was my point with the Bynum example of LA looking for a better brace for him.

Ariza came back for the finals last year and that was a 'positive' for the Lakers but meant nothing to the Celtics.  Not that Ariza and Nelson have/had the same role.  Just another example....

What kind of logic is that!?  If Jameer is the best point they have, and he comes in as a back-up to Alston, he replaces AJ and his minutes.  That puts more pressure on the Lakers defense, since he can get by any guard the Lakers put on him.  It's not just for him to get to the basket, but to draw the defense in to kick the ball back out to the the 3 point-line or get Lewis or Hedo an inside shot.

A positive for one team is intrinsically a negative for the opponent. Whether it's significant enough to alter the outcome in series depends on how effective he can be.

Hypothetical scenario, Jameer has worked his way back into the starting line-up for Orlando in game 7 and lights up LA like he did in the regular season. Orlando wins the title.  That would be a big negative for the Lakers wouldn't you say?

It's a no-loose situation for Orlando. If he can play well it's a plus, it he can't they're not any worse off then they were when they didn't think he was going to play.

Rick, please don't play the logic card.  You are the poster who said that P will have an easier time guarding Kobe even though Kobe is the much better offensive weapon between Lebron and himself.

You are ASSUMING he is going to come in and be a positive.  You are also ASSUMING the Lakers would change their entire preparation for the Magic based on Nelson  coming back to play 10 minutes a game.

Nelson WAS their best point guard.  Right now, coming off an injury, you cannot say that.  No one has seen him play in a pro game in 6 months.

Using a hypothetical situation can be used in plenty of spots.  Two can play at that game Rick.  What if Nelson comes back in Game 1 and hurts his shoulder all over again?  He's out for half of the next season and doesn't come back the same.  Is it still a negative for the Lakers?  There is a much higher chance that Nelson is going to be rusty than he is going to drop 35 in a game 7.

Jeeze, you make it sound like playing the RACE CARD!  Logic is the first thing I use in any argument.  But what you confusing is logic and assumptions.  It would be an assumption that Jameer will play as it would if he can play effectively.  But it is logical that the Magic will play him if they think it would be safe for him to do so, and if they believe he can help the team.

You are making the assumption that Kobe is more difficult to guard because he's a better scorer than LeBron. But physically LeBron is much bigger and stronger than Kobe, and Pietrus is closer to Kobe in size and weight.  Those are facts. Also, Kobe will be forced to play defense in this series, because Pietrus is a good outside shooter. Combine all those things, and the fact that Mikael was able to defend LeBron and score on the other end, and it is a reasonable assumption that he will do fine against Kobe.  How it actually works, out we'll find out. 

Another thing that I've noticed about the NBA writers, who are picking the Lakers: they are somewhat concerned about the head to head match-up during the regular season, which the Magic won.  So far, the regular season winner in the head to head match-ups has won the postseason contests.  What they point out, quite correctly is that both teams are different.  Ariza has become a more significant part of the Laker attack since then, and of course, Jameer Nelson has been out.

There is no clear evidence of how well Rafer Alston will play vs. Fisher. In this instance any projection would be blind speculation.

One thing that I have assumed which has been borne out by observation, is that individual head to head match-ups make a big difference in determining the outcome of games. Some people were surprised that a relatively weak team like the Sixers took the Magic to 6 games, what they didn't understand was that the Sixers match-up fairly well with Hedo and Lewis.  IMO, had Jameer Nelson been healthy and played in that series, it wouldn't have been so close.

Offline westkoast

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For the exact reason you said, a hobbled Nelson is not going to make a difference.  Having him back to give them a confidence boost is not a 'negative' to the Lakers because I see it has having a real impact

then how is it a positive for the magic?

A positive for a basketball team doesn't automatically make it a negative for the opposing team if it's not going to effect them that much (or at all in some cases)  That was my point with the Bynum example of LA looking for a better brace for him.

Ariza came back for the finals last year and that was a 'positive' for the Lakers but meant nothing to the Celtics.  Not that Ariza and Nelson have/had the same role.  Just another example....

What kind of logic is that!?  If Jameer is the best point they have, and he comes in as a back-up to Alston, he replaces AJ and his minutes.  That puts more pressure on the Lakers defense, since he can get by any guard the Lakers put on him.  It's not just for him to get to the basket, but to draw the defense in to kick the ball back out to the the 3 point-line or get Lewis or Hedo an inside shot.

A positive for one team is intrinsically a negative for the opponent. Whether it's significant enough to alter the outcome in series depends on how effective he can be.

Hypothetical scenario, Jameer has worked his way back into the starting line-up for Orlando in game 7 and lights up LA like he did in the regular season. Orlando wins the title.  That would be a big negative for the Lakers wouldn't you say?

It's a no-loose situation for Orlando. If he can play well it's a plus, it he can't they're not any worse off then they were when they didn't think he was going to play.

Rick, please don't play the logic card.  You are the poster who said that P will have an easier time guarding Kobe even though Kobe is the much better offensive weapon between Lebron and himself.

You are ASSUMING he is going to come in and be a positive.  You are also ASSUMING the Lakers would change their entire preparation for the Magic based on Nelson  coming back to play 10 minutes a game.

Nelson WAS their best point guard.  Right now, coming off an injury, you cannot say that.  No one has seen him play in a pro game in 6 months.

Using a hypothetical situation can be used in plenty of spots.  Two can play at that game Rick.  What if Nelson comes back in Game 1 and hurts his shoulder all over again?  He's out for half of the next season and doesn't come back the same.  Is it still a negative for the Lakers?  There is a much higher chance that Nelson is going to be rusty than he is going to drop 35 in a game 7.

Jeeze, you make it sound like playing the RACE CARD!  Logic is the first thing I use in any argument.  But what you confusing is logic and assumptions.  It would be an assumption that Jameer will play as it would if he can play effectively.  But it is logical that the Magic will play him if they think it would be safe for him to do so, and if they believe he can help the team.

You are making the assumption that Kobe is more difficult to guard because he's a better scorer than LeBron. But physically LeBron is much bigger and stronger than Kobe, and Pietrus is closer to Kobe in size and weight.  Those are facts. Also, Kobe will be forced to play defense in this series, because Pietrus is a good outside shooter. Combine all those things, and the fact that Mikael was able to defend LeBron and score on the other end, and it is a reasonable assumption that he will do fine against Kobe.  How it actually works, out we'll find out. 

Another thing that I've noticed about the NBA writers, who are picking the Lakers: they are somewhat concerned about the head to head match-up during the regular season, which the Magic won.  So far, the regular season winner in the head to head match-ups has won the postseason contests.  What they point out, quite correctly is that both teams are different.  Ariza has become a more significant part of the Laker attack since then, and of course, Jameer Nelson has been out.

There is no clear evidence of how well Rafer Alston will play vs. Fisher. In this instance any projection would be blind speculation.

One thing that I have assumed which has been borne out by observation, is that individual head to head match-ups make a big difference in determining the outcome of games. Some people were surprised that a relatively weak team like the Sixers took the Magic to 6 games, what they didn't understand was that the Sixers match-up fairly well with Hedo and Lewis.  IMO, had Jameer Nelson been healthy and played in that series, it wouldn't have been so close.

It's not an assumption that Kobe is a better offensive weapon than Lebron James.  It is a fact.  You can back it up with any amount of numbers and with analysis of each of their offensive games. 

- Kobe has the better jumper based on form and how well he uses it.  He also shoots better from 3.  Look up this years playoff stats if you don't believe me.  This makes Kobe a more versatile scorer and thus a much more difficult cover.   

- Kobe can drive and get to the rim with the best of them.  Not sure why you want to pretend like he's some slouch around the rim because he's not as strong as Lebron.  They both are VERY good at getting to the rim.  Where Lebron's strength helps him is not in actually getting to the rim but continuing for an And 1 due to his strength.  Kobe gets to the line just as much as Lebron does.

- Kobe is seen by most people as the bigger threat in crunch time.  There are stats that back this up as well along with plays at the end of games that prove it.

- Kobe is better on the block than Lebron James is even though Lebron James is the stronger player.  Kobe's ability to post up makes him more versatile thus a much more difficult cover.

Lebron is stronger than Kobe but again, like I said before, Petrius is not an overly strong defender so it's a moot point.  Ron Artest is much stronger than he is and Kobe was still able to score on him.   He is also NOT a better defender than Shane Battier.   To take it even farther P did little against Lebron if you think about all the games and look at the stats.  He averaged 40 points a game against them.  When you think about it that is not good defense and he really didn't slow him down.  Lebron scored even more than he did against them in the regular season.   I think you are OVER RATING a Magic player and trying to DOWN PLAY a Laker strength.  This is what I've been calling you on in many threads now. 

Kobe has been forced to play defense every series Rick.  I honestly don't believe you've been watching Laker games in the playoffs yet you are trying to do deep analysis of them.  I am starting to think you are doing so strictly based on numbers and assumptions.  Kobe was used on Chauncey Billups/Carmelo Anthony against Denver and he was guarding Ron Artest/Aaron Brooks against Houston.    Those are all guys who like Pietrius can shoot the 3....but what's the difference?  All those guys could put the ball on the floor as well.  So again, pumping up of a Magic player and trying to down play a Laker player.

 As for your analysis on Alston.  You've already written off Derek Fisher based on his play (and rightfully so even tho he could just as easily play well).   Why are you hesitant to bring up the fact that you can expect 2 (maybe 3 if they are lucky) solid games from Alston based on his play so far in the playoffs?  Why is he an unknown?  Why did you carefully word your response to not make it sound like he will be inconsistent.  You are giving him the benefit of the doubt he is actually going to be consistent in this series even though he has yet to do that all year.  Logically that doesn't make sense.  At least not if you are not giving ALL players the same benefit of the doubt.

And last but not least....You have not seen Nelson play basketball in MONTHS.  Literally no one has seen him step on the court other than the Magic players and coaches.  Why are you acting like had he been back from his injury at any junction in this playoffs he would automatically be awesome?  You don't even give players who have shown they can have big games in the playoffs the benefit of the doubt (Like Cavs and Lakers players) but for some reason you do it at will for Nelson.  That I don't understand.  Logically that doesn't make sense knowing that there is a 50/50 chance he will return back to who he was at the start of this season.  We are talking about a "season ending" SHOULDER injury to a SHOOTER.  He wasn't just gone for a few weeks.  The injury was pretty serious.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 10:57:37 PM by westkoast »
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Offline WayOutWest

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What kind of logic is that!?  If Jameer is the best point they have, and he comes in as a back-up to Alston, he replaces AJ and his minutes.  That puts more pressure on the Lakers defense, since he can get by any guard the Lakers put on him.  It's not just for him to get to the basket, but to draw the defense in to kick the ball back out to the the 3 point-line or get Lewis or Hedo an inside shot.

Your entire argument is an ASSUMPTION rick.  Jameer WAS their best PG, he got hurt and shouldn't even be playing let alone putting pressure on the Lakers.  This isn't some movie where everything works out in the end.  Assumption does NOT equal logic.

A positive for one team is intrinsically a negative for the opponent. Whether it's significant enough to alter the outcome in series depends on how effective he can be.

Agreed.

Hypothetical scenario, Jameer has worked his way back into the starting line-up for Orlando in game 7 and lights up LA like he did in the regular season. Orlando wins the title.  That would be a big negative for the Lakers wouldn't you say?

Another assuption rick, NO point in playing the "what if" game unless we're talking about which super hero can beat up another super hero.  Ever heard the saying "IF my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle?"  Geeeee...it's such a nice game to play "if"    ....what if Bynum gets back to early season form and puts up 20/15 and destroys Howard by causing him to foul out of the game in 48 seconds?  That would be a huge negative for the Magic....do you get it now rick?

It's a no-loose situation for Orlando. If he can play well it's a plus, it he can't they're not any worse off then they were when they didn't think he was going to play.

no-loose?  WTF is that rick?  The Magic have a lot to LOSE if Jameer comes back and is not ready to contribute.  He will be taking away minutes from guys that helped get the Magic to the NBA Finals.  How can disrupting the system that got the Magic into the Finals be a no-lose situation.  You are using a "checkers" approach to discuss a "chess" argument.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 09:14:20 AM by WayOutWest »
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Offline Joe Vancil

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no-loose?  WTF is that rick?  The Magic have a lot to LOSE if Jameer comes back and is not ready to contribute.  He will be taking away minutes from guys that helped get the Magic to the NBA Finals.  How can disrupting the system that got the Magic into the Finals be a no-lose situation.  You are using a "checkers" approach to discuss a "chess" argument.

I don't agree, WayOut - I think Nelson coming back *IS* a no-lose situation, if handled correctly.

The trick is not to use Nelson as the Nelson prior to the injury, but as a motivation point at a critical moment.  1 minute of game time across the entire series is *MORE* than enough to do that.  And if the Magic can't accept a less-than-passable player for 1 minute of game time across the series, then they can't win the series anyway, so no harm is done.

If Nelson can contribute more, then that's just gravy.  But even if he's only a motivational factor, he's worth bring back.

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Offline WayOutWest

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I don't agree, WayOut - I think Nelson coming back *IS* a no-lose situation, if handled correctly.

The trick is not to use Nelson as the Nelson prior to the injury, but as a motivation point at a critical moment.  1 minute of game time across the entire series is *MORE* than enough to do that.  And if the Magic can't accept a less-than-passable player for 1 minute of game time across the series, then they can't win the series anyway, so no harm is done.

If Nelson can contribute more, then that's just gravy.  But even if he's only a motivational factor, he's worth bring back.

Totally disagree Joe.  Can you name a time that has worked?  I know the story about Willis Reed but in that case he was actually able to contribute and hold his own against non-other than Wilt.  It was inspiriational for him to just step on the court but can you imagine how the Knicks would have reacted if Willis would have ended up on the ground writhing in pain?  I just don't know what Jameer can contribute, his shooting shoulder is the one he hurt plus you risk the guy getting hurt and that would be a HUGE "lose" situation.  Jameer reagrivating his injury would be a huge mental blow for the Magic.  It's too bad that Jameer got hurt cause that would make the Magic so much stronger, but a lot of teams have had to deal with injuries affecting their playoff hopes.  IMO the Magic are good enough to win the series 'as is', I don't think it's a good idea to tinker with that success, it could be disasterous.
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