Andre Iguodala: Top 10 player in the NBA?

[DuckyNinja]

I use colons too much in my topic titles, deal with it.  From Truehoop:

Kevin Pelton of Basketball Prospectus, writing for ESPN Insider about Andre Iguodala: "The other area where Iguodala shines when we look deeper at the statistics is a familiar one: defense. Again, Iguodala has the traditional stats, having averaged 1.6 steals per game to rank 10th in the league. What that fails to capture is Iguodala's ability to contain his own man. According to 82games.com, opposing small forwards averaged 16.5 points per 48 minutes and a .492 effective field-goal percentage against the 76ers when Igudoala was playing the position this season, as compared to 20.2 points per 48 minutes and a .495 eFG for all small forwards in the NBA this season. Basketball Prospectus' defensive statistics also show Iguodala holding opponents 4.7 percent below their normal production -- virtually identical to Battier's performance. Again, Iguodala has been slow in getting recognition for his defense, drawing only a single vote for last year's All-Defensive teams. But using the same methods to adjust plus-minus data that Michael Lewis drew upon in his Battier profile, statistical analysis shows Igudoala to be an elite defender. His defensive adjusted plus-minus last season, as calculated by current Rockets consultant Eli Witus, was tops among wing players. While adjusted numbers are not yet available for this season, Philadelphia allowed 7.4 fewer points per 100 possessions when Iguodala was on the court. Largely because of his defensive presence, Iguodala has been one of this year's standouts in terms of the adjusted plus-minus calculated by BasketballValue.com, one of seven players in the league worth more than 10 points per 100 possessions to their team."

I can c+p the rest of the article, but it's on Insider, and I don't know what D-Bods' rule on posting full pay content on here is.  Pelton mentions him as worthy of All-NBA discussion and a top player according to any advanced metric that includes defense.  Thought it was interesting that while Iguodala often doesn't pass the "look" test, he is a guy that stats love.  Kinda like the anti-Ryan Howard.

[RickyPryor]

Your topic suggests the article refers to Iggy as a Top 10 Player.  This excerpt speaks about nothing but defense.  And so, yeah, I do think an argument could be made that he's a top defender.  Top 10 PLAYER?  No way.

[rickortreat]

He absolutely is a top 10 player. The article talks about his defense, but on a statistical basis, his offense also stands out.  He shoots better than Kobe, he averages more assists and more boards.  If Kobe is the best in the game, it is more than reasonable to consider Andre a top 10 player.

In fact he is by any OBJECTIVE standard.

[RickyPryor]

He absolutely is a top 10 player. The article talks about his defense, but on a statistical basis, his offense also stands out.  He shoots better than Kobe, he averages more assists and more boards.  If Kobe is the best in the game, it is more than reasonable to consider Andre a top 10 player.

In fact he is by any OBJECTIVE standard.

If I were starting a team tomorrow, and were asked to choose 12 players, he'd not be close to incuded.  Not close.

Apparently he'd be on your team (along with Speights perhaps? ). 

[Skates]

Yeah, I like Iggy very much and think he is underappreciated in general, but top ten, no way.  He is still second tier at best, which is nothing to be ashamed of.  In my subjective opinion, his real peer group are guys like Kevin Martin, Rudy Gay, Danny Granger and Monta Ellis.  Very, very effective players, not quite franchise guys, but with the potential to be so, or get very close to being so, some day. 

The bigger question in my mind is whether Thad might someday get beyong that grouping into the real franchise player category, and I thnk he just might.

[rickortreat]

It depends on how you evaluate a player and what makes a good one.  Iguodala performs at a high level, and he is also a facilitator for others and a hard worker in general. There are few player who naturally play a game where they are able to score, rebound and deal out assists at a level where a triple-double is ever a possibility. 

I'd like to know how many of Ricky's top 12 or Skates top 10 can do that!

Show me your players and compare the stats with Iguodala's. Then justify your opinion. And I mean real numbers like PER and Offensive and Defensive efficiency. Because I don't think there are 10 to 12 players in the league that are so far above Andre that he isn't on your list.

There is popular opinion and then there is objective fact. Give me facts.

Here's a fact that suggests he is a top 10 player- Of all the players in the playoffs, Andre ranks 10th for Points, Assists and Rebounds.

I also agree on a subjective level that Thad may be a better player then Iguodala (eventually) He is certainly ahead of him at the age of 20!  During the regular season, he seemed to have another level of offensive skill, that was really exceptional, I'm hoping to see him take over a game against the Magic. He is certainly capable of scoring 30 or more when he's making outside shots and driving the lane.  Also developing some low post moves, good quick, coordinated player.  With that said, he is not near the rebounder, passer or ball handler that Iguodala is now.

[Derek Bodner]

Rick, arguing you is pointless.  You take anything you don't agree with, and call them unbiased and nonfactual.  I don't know why I'm going to do this, but I guess I feel like wasting my time.

Objectivity and fact are not one in the same.  You can be objective, and still be wrong.  Life must be easy in a world so cut and dry as you.

There are no stats, not PER, not PER differential, not +/-, not DRTG, ORTG or win shares, that proves fact.  They back up arguments.  That's all they do.

He shoots better than Kobe, he averages more assists and more boards.

You cannot compare the FG% of someone who takes 21 shots per game with someone who takes 14.  You, the one who deals with facts and real numbers, should know that.

Also, fg% is a terrible way of measuring efficiency.  In terms of TS% (56.1% vs  56%) and eFG% (50.2% vs 50.7%), they're virtually identical.  That's with Kobe having a 32.2% USG% against Iguodala's 22.3%.

And rebounding and assist numbers?  Again, you're dealing with biased stats, not FACTS.  Iguodala plays 4 more minutes per game.  In terms of PER 36, they're very close.  Iguodala would be at 5.2 rebs and 4.8 assists, Kobe 5.2 rebs and 4.9 assists.

PER?  Not even close.   24.3 for Kobe, 18.4 for Andre.  Win shares?  13.1 vs 9.  Find me an objective measure, find me FACTS, not biased, irrelevant stats, that show me they're even in the same ballpark.

Thanks.

Show me your players and compare the stats with Iguodala's. Then justify your opinion. And I mean real numbers like PER and Offensive and Defensive efficiency. Because I don't think there are 10 to 12 players in the league that are so far above Andre that he isn't on your list.

ORTG:
Offensive Rating
1.    Pau Gasol-LAL    125.6
2.    Chris Paul-NOH    124.4
3.    Jose Calderon-TOR    123.0
4.    Brandon Roy-POR    122.7
5.    Ray Allen-BOS    121.7
6.    LeBron James-CLE    121.7
7.    Chauncey Billups-TOT    121.0
8.    Jameer Nelson-ORL    120.8
9.    Troy Murphy-IND    120.3
10.    Nene Hilario-DEN    120.3
...
Iguodala: 112


DRTG:
1.    Dwight Howard-ORL    94.6
2.    Kevin Garnett-BOS    97.5
3.    LeBron James-CLE    99.1
4.    Anderson Varejao-CLE    100.0
5.    Kendrick Perkins-BOS    100.2
6.    Tim Duncan-SAS    100.2
7.    Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE    100.5
8.    Chris Andersen-DEN    100.6
9.    Yao Ming-HOU    100.8
10.    Rajon Rondo-BOS    100.9
...
Iguodala: 108

Win Shares:
1.    LeBron James-CLE    19.6
2.    Chris Paul-NOH    17.5
3.    Dwyane Wade-MIA    14.4
4.    Pau Gasol-LAL    14.4
5.    Dwight Howard-ORL    13.9
6.    Kobe Bryant-LAL    13.1
7.    Brandon Roy-POR    12.7
8.    Ray Allen-BOS    11.0
9.    Dirk Nowitzki-DAL    10.9
10.    Yao Ming-HOU    10.4
...
Iguodala: 9

PER:
1.    LeBron James-CLE    31.7
2.    Dwyane Wade-MIA    30.4
3.    Chris Paul-NOH    30.0
4.    Dwight Howard-ORL    25.4
5.    Tim Duncan-SAS    24.4
6.    Kobe Bryant-LAL    24.3
7.    Brandon Roy-POR    24.0
8.    Tony Parker-SAS    23.4
9.    Dirk Nowitzki-DAL    23.1
10.    Yao Ming-HOU    22.6
...
Iguodala: 18.4

Just because you found one article that says Iguodala is top 10, don't sit there on your high horse and act like everyone else is biased, running off of popular opinion, and incapable of thinking analytically and for themselves.  You asked for these stats.  Maybe you should actually look them up before spouting off ignorantly about them.

[Derek Bodner]

Thought it was interesting that while Iguodala often doesn't pass the "look" test, he is a guy that stats love.  Kinda like the anti-Ryan Howard.

Not sure I agree with that part about Ryan Howard.  He has a career OPS+ of 143.  a 143 OPS+ is generally in the top 5 in the league. 

[tk76-]

Ignoring age, I'd take Iguodala somewhere about 30th.  Taking age into account some players pass him on potential (like maybe Thad) and others drop below him, but he still is in the 30's.  But there is not a huge difference from 15-40.  His contract is in the 40's overall (for now), so they are getting about what they pay for.

[Derek Bodner]

BTW, the article doesn't claim Iguodala as a top 10 player.  It talks about him getting all-defensive team recognition.  The only thing it mentions is the basketballvalue chart, which we've talked about before, and is heavily influenced by the defensive stats.

debating the merits of the current defensive stats is an argument that could be interesting.

[rickortreat]

Rick, arguing you is pointless.  You take anything you don't agree with, and call them unbiased and nonfactual.  I don't know why I'm going to do this, but I guess I feel like wasting my time.

Objectivity and fact are not one in the same.  You can be objective, and still be wrong.  Life must be easy in a world so cut and dry as you.

There are no stats, not PER, not PER differential, not +/-, not DRTG, ORTG or win shares, that proves fact.  They back up arguments.  That's all they do.

He shoots better than Kobe, he averages more assists and more boards.

You cannot compare the FG% of someone who takes 21 shots per game with someone who takes 14.  You, the one who deals with facts and real numbers, should know that.

Also, fg% is a terrible way of measuring efficiency.  In terms of TS% (56.1% vs  56%) and eFG% (50.2% vs 50.7%), they're virtually identical.  That's with Kobe having a 32.2% USG% against Iguodala's 22.3%.

And rebounding and assist numbers?  Again, you're dealing with biased stats, not FACTS.  Iguodala plays 4 more minutes per game.  In terms of PER 36, they're very close.  Iguodala would be at 5.2 rebs and 4.8 assists, Kobe 5.2 rebs and 4.9 assists.

PER?  Not even close.   24.3 for Kobe, 18.4 for Andre.  Win shares?  13.1 vs 9.  Find me an objective measure, find me FACTS, not biased, irrelevant stats, that show me they're even in the same ballpark.

Thanks.

Show me your players and compare the stats with Iguodala's. Then justify your opinion. And I mean real numbers like PER and Offensive and Defensive efficiency. Because I don't think there are 10 to 12 players in the league that are so far above Andre that he isn't on your list.

ORTG:
Offensive Rating
1.    Pau Gasol-LAL    125.6
2.    Chris Paul-NOH    124.4
3.    Jose Calderon-TOR    123.0
4.    Brandon Roy-POR    122.7
5.    Ray Allen-BOS    121.7
6.    LeBron James-CLE    121.7
7.    Chauncey Billups-TOT    121.0
8.    Jameer Nelson-ORL    120.8
9.    Troy Murphy-IND    120.3
10.    Nene Hilario-DEN    120.3
...
Iguodala: 112


DRTG:
1.    Dwight Howard-ORL    94.6
2.    Kevin Garnett-BOS    97.5
3.    LeBron James-CLE    99.1
4.    Anderson Varejao-CLE    100.0
5.    Kendrick Perkins-BOS    100.2
6.    Tim Duncan-SAS    100.2
7.    Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE    100.5
8.    Chris Andersen-DEN    100.6
9.    Yao Ming-HOU    100.8
10.    Rajon Rondo-BOS    100.9
...
Iguodala: 108

Win Shares:
1.    LeBron James-CLE    19.6
2.    Chris Paul-NOH    17.5
3.    Dwyane Wade-MIA    14.4
4.    Pau Gasol-LAL    14.4
5.    Dwight Howard-ORL    13.9
6.    Kobe Bryant-LAL    13.1
7.    Brandon Roy-POR    12.7
8.    Ray Allen-BOS    11.0
9.    Dirk Nowitzki-DAL    10.9
10.    Yao Ming-HOU    10.4
...
Iguodala: 9

PER:
1.    LeBron James-CLE    31.7
2.    Dwyane Wade-MIA    30.4
3.    Chris Paul-NOH    30.0
4.    Dwight Howard-ORL    25.4
5.    Tim Duncan-SAS    24.4
6.    Kobe Bryant-LAL    24.3
7.    Brandon Roy-POR    24.0
8.    Tony Parker-SAS    23.4
9.    Dirk Nowitzki-DAL    23.1
10.    Yao Ming-HOU    22.6
...
Iguodala: 18.4

Just because you found one article that says Iguodala is top 10, don't sit there on your high horse and act like everyone else is biased, running off of popular opinion, and incapable of thinking analytically and for themselves.  You asked for these stats.  Maybe you should actually look them up before spouting off ignorantly about them.

The difference is your posts is filled with stats that justify your opinion, they simply say he's not a top 10 player, nyah, nyah nyah.  And your stats and analysis demonstrate to me that he is not a top 10 player.

I'd appreciate it if you could explain the USG stat to me. The way I look at it, the lower the rating means that the player produces more while using the ball less, isn't that better? Yet it is clearly added to the PER as a positive.

[DuckyNinja]

Ryan Howard was 10th among 1B in WPA and value according to fangraphs.  Just saying.  His defense probably played a large part in that, but it looks like he's been MUCH better this year.

And can I post the entire article or would you prefer me not to?  I know many boards have rules against posting full pay content articles.

[Derek Bodner]

Well, last year was by far the worst year of his career.  I'd be more interested in seeing his career WPA than his worst year.  But I generally think win shares and other metrics in baseball overrate defense, but that's an entirely different argument for an entirely different thread that I don't want to derail this from.  Overall, sabermetric stats differ on Howard's worth I would say.

I don't really have a problem with you posting articles.  I'm guessing ESPN has bigger fish to fry than us.

[rickortreat]

At 82games.com they also have a metric called the Roland Rating, which is supposed to be an all-around measure of a players production as well as his defensive effect.  There is a disclaimer about using any all-around measure, but as long as the same number evaluation is going on there is no bias in the stat, but if the weightings are out of whack then the results will be skewed to a certain extent. If defense is valued less then defensive-oriented players will be devalued in excess of what is appropriate.
 
By that ranking, Iguodala is 11th.  There's no point in producing the stats here, anyone interested can go to the site.  

Also at 82games. They have a listing for all the teams with comparisons by position, and for the Sixers their small forward position rank is 3rd best in the league. Since Andre plays almost the entire game, that stat suggests that he is the 3rd best small forward in the game. This is the one that does it for me, since it shows the PER for the position of the player and the cumulative PER for the opponents during the season.  Iguodala's stats may not show this, but he usually outperforms whoever he plays against and that has to be considered in any overall talent evaluation.

It also shows where Andre is statistically deficient to other players.  It seems the main thing he should do is shoot more.

  

[sixersftw]

I don't think "by position" is a good measure.  by that metric milsap is the 3rd best pf, lamarcus Aldridge is the 2nd best pf, and dre miller is the 3rd best pg.