Will the REAL "big three" please stand up.

[WayOutWest]

Also, Joe, about Parker's passing.  His assist/to ratio (2.64) is basically the same as D-Will (2.76) and better than Nash (2.29), Harris (2.44) and Wade (1.84).

And WOW - Mayo is 49th among guards in assists while having an assist/to ratio of 1.14.  He plays more minutes than Parker but averages less points, less than half the assists and shoots lower percentages from the floor.  If Parker isn't close to top 5 than Mayo is even further away.

I've seen Mayo in about 2 games vs 20+ for Parker and I'm just amazed by the kid.  He's probably better suited to the role of an SG but if he every focuses on being a PG he's going to be awesome.  DWill and CP3 took me by surprise, I really didn't see much of them and didn't have any clue who they were until last year, Mayo is going to be the same way to a certain extent.  You won't be questioning my "man-crush" on Mayo in a couple of years.

You totally skirted around the point of my comment, not surprising because that's what you do when you have no argument.  Extrapolating a players stats to 48 minutes IMO is BS.  Players can't sustain that type of production over the course of a season.  Maybe a game or two but after a month of 48 minute games they would suck.

[Lurker]

Lurker,

And, again, you're pulling a number out that I have very little respect for - assists per turnover.

Turnovers and assists have very little to do with each other.  You can avoid a turnover by simply chucking up a bad shot (ala Nick Van Exel).  Likewise, when you've got a Tim Duncan, you should be getting tons of assists if you have half a brain.  (See Jameer Nelson for what happens if you don't.)

If you want to look at an assist-based number to try to judge passing ability, look at assists per minute.  (The numbers below are per 48).

1.  Paul  14.6
2.  D. Williams  13.7
3.  M. Williams (GS)  12.6
4.  Nash   12.1
5.  Calderon  11.8
6.  Atkins (Den)  11.6   <---WTF?
7.  Rodriguez (Por) 11.3
8.  Kidd 11.3
9.  Rondo, 11.3
10. Watson (OKC) 11.1

Then you've got Solomon, Knight, Baron Davis, Vaughn, and Duhon.  Then you have Anthony Carter and Tony Parker tied.  Billups - a noted gunner - is right behind.  Then you get to Dunleavy and Wade - who don't play point, Demtrius Nichols (who has played 2 games), Harris, LeBron, Sessions (Milw.), and Stuckey.  Parker is NOT a dangerous passer.

Parker is, however, not bad about turning the ball over.  He's 33rd.  Ties him with Ben Gordon.  Heck, it ties him with BENO UDRIH.  (Ask Skander what he thinks of Udrih's turnovers.)

Bottom line:  Parker's passing is hardly elite.

Sorry Joe but having a big man does not automatically inflate your assists.  The biggest factor in assists is the offense you are playing.  And you don't adjust for pace at all.  A faster paced team will have more opportunities for assists.  Just look at Nash with D'Antoni gone.

Also your per 48 stats take into account players that play minimal minutes and/or games.  Go back and sort out those polayers who would not qualify for the NBA's lists and see how your numbers pan out.

[westkoast]

Lurker,

And, again, you're pulling a number out that I have very little respect for - assists per turnover.

Turnovers and assists have very little to do with each other.  You can avoid a turnover by simply chucking up a bad shot (ala Nick Van Exel).  Likewise, when you've got a Tim Duncan, you should be getting tons of assists if you have half a brain.  (See Jameer Nelson for what happens if you don't.)

If you want to look at an assist-based number to try to judge passing ability, look at assists per minute.  (The numbers below are per 48).

1.  Paul  14.6
2.  D. Williams  13.7
3.  M. Williams (GS)  12.6
4.  Nash   12.1
5.  Calderon  11.8
6.  Atkins (Den)  11.6   <---WTF?
7.  Rodriguez (Por) 11.3
8.  Kidd 11.3
9.  Rondo, 11.3
10. Watson (OKC) 11.1

Then you've got Solomon, Knight, Baron Davis, Vaughn, and Duhon.  Then you have Anthony Carter and Tony Parker tied.  Billups - a noted gunner - is right behind.  Then you get to Dunleavy and Wade - who don't play point, Demtrius Nichols (who has played 2 games), Harris, LeBron, Sessions (Milw.), and Stuckey.  Parker is NOT a dangerous passer.

Parker is, however, not bad about turning the ball over.  He's 33rd.  Ties him with Ben Gordon.  Heck, it ties him with BENO UDRIH.  (Ask Skander what he thinks of Udrih's turnovers.)

Bottom line:  Parker's passing is hardly elite.

That having Duncan on the floor argument about the assists isn't quite true.  Considering throwing the ball into him so he can operate negates your assist after a few dribbles.  Let's not pretend like Tony Parker doesn't drive and kick to guys like Bowen, Barry (in previous years), Michael Finley, and Robert Horry (again in previous years).

You are right.  He is not an elite passer.   Right now the only elite passers to me are CP3, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, and Deron Williams.  That's it IMO.   Don't try to make it sound like he doesn't do anything.

[Lurker]

Also, Joe, about Parker's passing.  His assist/to ratio (2.64) is basically the same as D-Will (2.76) and better than Nash (2.29), Harris (2.44) and Wade (1.84).

And WOW - Mayo is 49th among guards in assists while having an assist/to ratio of 1.14.  He plays more minutes than Parker but averages less points, less than half the assists and shoots lower percentages from the floor.  If Parker isn't close to top 5 than Mayo is even further away.

I've seen Mayo in about 2 games vs 20+ for Parker and I'm just amazed by the kid.  He's probably better suited to the role of an SG but if he every focuses on being a PG he's going to be awesome.  DWill and CP3 took me by surprise, I really didn't see much of them and didn't have any clue who they were until last year, Mayo is going to be the same way to a certain extent.  You won't be questioning my "man-crush" on Mayo in a couple of years.

You totally skirted around the point of my comment, not surprising because that's what you do when you have no argument.  Extrapolating a players stats to 48 minutes IMO is BS.  Players can't sustain that type of production over the course of a season.  Maybe a game or two but after a month of 48 minute games they would suck.

No I skirted nothing.  I posted 3 differrent rating systems that showed Parker in teh top 10.  The one that adjusts for playing time (48 minutes) moved Parker even higher.  So ignore the tendex per 48 numbers and explain why Parker comes out so high in Tendex, PER and NBA efficiency.

BTW Mayo plays SG. Conley & Lowry play the PG for Memphis.

[Lurker]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

He scores 8 points a game and Dallas is going to miss the playoffs. 

Kidd defense now is overrated but he is still  a hell of a passer but no way, at this point in time, would I pick Jason Kidd over Tony Parker.

Sorry Joe but if you are going to say Tony Parker's shot is just coming around (Even tho it's been around for 3 seasons now) you cannot say that Kidd's defense is still very good.  He often gets torched by quicker guards.  I wouldn't say he's good.

I'll argue that.  Parker's shot has "come around" because he's not taking nearly as many 3-pointers as he did.  Instead, he's focusing on his inside scoring.  The last three seasons (plus this one), correspond with his lower three-pointers taken, and not surprisingly, higher field goal percentages, and more free throws.  That's what's SUPPOSED to happen when you cut back on shots you can't hit and concentrate on getting into the lane.  When you go form 150+ 3-pointers a year to a high of 66 in a year (last year - the other two were 36 and 38), if your percentage doesn't go up radically, you're not playing in the NBA.

Well, Joe it is more than 3 point shooting.  Parker has developed a very consistant midrange game.  Per 82games.com:

2008/09  Jump: 64% of attempts shooting .459   Inside: 36% shooting .593
2007/08  Jump: 62% of attempts shooting .419   Inside: 38% shooting .640
2006/07  Jump: 59% of attempts shooting .442   Inside: 41% shooting .650

So this disproves your theory.  He has been taking more perimeter shots over the past 3 years and improving his percentage. Parker has worked to make teams pay for laying off him.

[WayOutWest]

No I skirted nothing.  I posted 3 differrent rating systems that showed Parker in teh top 10.  The one that adjusts for playing time (48 minutes) moved Parker even higher.  So ignore the tendex per 48 numbers and explain why Parker comes out so high in Tendex, PER and NBA efficiency.

BTW Mayo plays SG. Conley & Lowry play the PG for Memphis.

LOL!  Since you can't debate with me you want me to debate myself?  

I already stated TP is top 10, in fact he's #9 on my list and my ESPN highlight reel love for Mayo probably caused me to rate him too high so TP is actually #8.

[Joe Vancil]

You are right.  He is not an elite passer.  

Agreed.

Right now the only elite passers to me are CP3, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, and Deron Williams.  That's it IMO.   

Disagree.  Add to the list Andre Miller, Brevin Knight, Delonte West, Barea (the kid in Dallas - and I'll admit, this is a leap of faith on my part), Calderon, Baron Davis, and T.J. Ford.  Then I think you've got your list.

Don't try to make it sound like he doesn't do anything.

When not being an elite-level player/top-5 point guard equates to "doesn't do anything," I'll be glad to apologize to Parker.

Parker is effective.  I never said he wasn't.  He's a good fit for what San An is doing right now.  I do not think his success would translate well to most - in fact, to ANY - other team.

[Joe Vancil]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

He scores 8 points a game and Dallas is going to miss the playoffs. 

Kidd defense now is overrated but he is still  a hell of a passer but no way, at this point in time, would I pick Jason Kidd over Tony Parker.

Sorry Joe but if you are going to say Tony Parker's shot is just coming around (Even tho it's been around for 3 seasons now) you cannot say that Kidd's defense is still very good.  He often gets torched by quicker guards.  I wouldn't say he's good.

I'll argue that.  Parker's shot has "come around" because he's not taking nearly as many 3-pointers as he did.  Instead, he's focusing on his inside scoring.  The last three seasons (plus this one), correspond with his lower three-pointers taken, and not surprisingly, higher field goal percentages, and more free throws.  That's what's SUPPOSED to happen when you cut back on shots you can't hit and concentrate on getting into the lane.  When you go form 150+ 3-pointers a year to a high of 66 in a year (last year - the other two were 36 and 38), if your percentage doesn't go up radically, you're not playing in the NBA.

Well, Joe it is more than 3 point shooting.  Parker has developed a very consistant midrange game.  Per 82games.com:

2008/09  Jump: 64% of attempts shooting .459   Inside: 36% shooting .593
2007/08  Jump: 62% of attempts shooting .419   Inside: 38% shooting .640
2006/07  Jump: 59% of attempts shooting .442   Inside: 41% shooting .650

So this disproves your theory.  He has been taking more perimeter shots over the past 3 years and improving his percentage. Parker has worked to make teams pay for laying off him.

Really?

2005/06  Jump:  51%  at .415           Inside:  49% at .699

which was the first of the years he cut down his 3-point attempts, and then:

and then when he was shooting 3's...
2004/05  Jump:  58%  at .405           Inside:  42% at .633
2003/04  Jump:  68%  at .398           Inside:  32% at .651
2002/03  Jump:  67%  at .428           Inside   33% at .651

And his overall numbers?

2002-03   .464
2003-04   .447
2004-05   .482  (note that it corresponds to fewer jumpers and more inside)
2005-06   .548  - corresponds to lowest percentage of jumpers
2006-07   .520  - jumpers up more, percentage goes down
2007-08   .494  - jumpers up more, percenage drops again
2008-09   ..498 - more jumpers, slight raise in percentage

The fact is Parker's shooting % went up when he STOPPED shooting so many jumpers.

[westkoast]

You are right.  He is not an elite passer.  

Agreed.

Right now the only elite passers to me are CP3, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, and Deron Williams.  That's it IMO.   

Disagree.  Add to the list Andre Miller, Brevin Knight, Delonte West, Barea (the kid in Dallas - and I'll admit, this is a leap of faith on my part), Calderon, Baron Davis, and T.J. Ford.  Then I think you've got your list.

Don't try to make it sound like he doesn't do anything.

When not being an elite-level player/top-5 point guard equates to "doesn't do anything," I'll be glad to apologize to Parker.

Parker is effective.  I never said he wasn't.  He's a good fit for what San An is doing right now.  I do not think his success would translate well to most - in fact, to ANY - other team.

Andre Miller is *NOT* an elite passer.  There is more to passing than just alley oops.  I think the Sixers fans on this board would disagree with you on that.  If he was an elite passer in the same vein as Chris Paul then I think having Igs and Brand would get them above .500 when teamed up with that passing.

Delonte West is not an elite passer either.  If he was then the Cavs would not depend on Lebron as much as they do.

Calderon I agree with....but based on your least favorite stat, turnovers to assists.  He currently leads the league in that category.  He is even above CP3 (or at least was  last time I looked).  

Baron Davis is an elite passer but that's not his role anymore so I don't know if you add him into the list.  The Clippers would be a better team if his passing was still 'elite' IMO.

[westkoast]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

He scores 8 points a game and Dallas is going to miss the playoffs. 

Kidd defense now is overrated but he is still  a hell of a passer but no way, at this point in time, would I pick Jason Kidd over Tony Parker.

Sorry Joe but if you are going to say Tony Parker's shot is just coming around (Even tho it's been around for 3 seasons now) you cannot say that Kidd's defense is still very good.  He often gets torched by quicker guards.  I wouldn't say he's good.

I'll argue that.  Parker's shot has "come around" because he's not taking nearly as many 3-pointers as he did.  Instead, he's focusing on his inside scoring.  The last three seasons (plus this one), correspond with his lower three-pointers taken, and not surprisingly, higher field goal percentages, and more free throws.  That's what's SUPPOSED to happen when you cut back on shots you can't hit and concentrate on getting into the lane.  When you go form 150+ 3-pointers a year to a high of 66 in a year (last year - the other two were 36 and 38), if your percentage doesn't go up radically, you're not playing in the NBA.

Well, Joe it is more than 3 point shooting.  Parker has developed a very consistant midrange game.  Per 82games.com:

2008/09  Jump: 64% of attempts shooting .459   Inside: 36% shooting .593
2007/08  Jump: 62% of attempts shooting .419   Inside: 38% shooting .640
2006/07  Jump: 59% of attempts shooting .442   Inside: 41% shooting .650

So this disproves your theory.  He has been taking more perimeter shots over the past 3 years and improving his percentage. Parker has worked to make teams pay for laying off him.

I didn't need stats to tell me that.  I've seen the improvement just based on how teams want to play the Spurs.  The way the Lakers use to hurt the Spurs was exactly in that fashion.  Utah and the Cavs tried to do it two seasons ago and got burned badly.

That night Parker dropped 45-50 (I forget the total) it came on alot of jumpers.

[rickortreat]

Also, Joe, about Parker's passing.  His assist/to ratio (2.64) is basically the same as D-Will (2.76) and better than Nash (2.29), Harris (2.44) and Wade (1.84).

And WOW - Mayo is 49th among guards in assists while having an assist/to ratio of 1.14.  He plays more minutes than Parker but averages less points, less than half the assists and shoots lower percentages from the floor.  If Parker isn't close to top 5 than Mayo is even further away.

I've seen Mayo in about 2 games vs 20+ for Parker and I'm just amazed by the kid.  He's probably better suited to the role of an SG but if he every focuses on being a PG he's going to be awesome.  DWill and CP3 took me by surprise, I really didn't see much of them and didn't have any clue who they were until last year, Mayo is going to be the same way to a certain extent.  You won't be questioning my "man-crush" on Mayo in a couple of years.

You totally skirted around the point of my comment, not surprising because that's what you do when you have no argument.  Extrapolating a players stats to 48 minutes IMO is BS.  Players can't sustain that type of production over the course of a season.  Maybe a game or two but after a month of 48 minute games they would suck.

Pardon me, WOW, but IMO you are misinterpretating PER. The point is to compare players production on an even basis, no matter how long they play, not to imply that they would play as well if they stayed on the floor the entire game. I doubt if any player could play with no let-off after 40 min, and most of them couldn't even play that long.

[Derek Bodner]

PER (and other stats that extrapolate numbers) don't imply that a player who plays 5 mpg can sustain productivity at 40 mpg.  What they are there to do is look at how productive you are when on the court.  As most stats, it can be used incorrectly.

[WayOutWest]

PER (and other stats that extrapolate numbers) don't imply that a player who plays 5 mpg can sustain productivity at 40 mpg.  What they are there to do is look at how productive you are when on the court.  As most stats, it can be used incorrectly.

I was addressing Lurkers post when I made the comments.

So what does "(3rd on a per 48 basis)" mean?

What does "MyTendex/48min" mean?

Maybe I shouldn't have capitolized "per" since it means something else.

Gee, Parker ranks 6th in Tendex ratings (3rd on a per 48 basis) and 6th in PER.  Not to mention (oops I did) that he is his team's leading scorer.  But the guy is overrated...

                                   Point Guards
               MyTendex     (min 20 games)      MyTendex/48min (min 20.0 min/gm)
        Player             Team MyTend          Player             Team Tend/48
  1) paul,chris            NOr   31.95     1) paul,chris            NOr  40.69
  2) harris,devin          NJN   23.40     2) harris,devin          NJN  31.09
  3) kidd,jason            Dal   21.39     3) parker,tony           San  29.67
  4) billups,chauncey      den   21.27     4) kidd,jason            Dal  28.97
  5) calderon,jose         Tor   21.14     5) billups,chauncey      den  28.84
  6) parker,tony           San   20.78     6) calderon,jose         Tor  28.62
  7) bibby,mike            Atl   19.44     7) rondo,rajon           Bos  28.40
  williams,deron        Uta   19.38      nelson,jameer         Orl  27.43
  9) nash,steve            Pho   19.10     9) nash,steve            Pho  27.19
 10) rondo,rajon           Bos   18.85    10) bibby,mike            Atl  26.93
  ** Avg for Position = 11.84.             ** Avg for Position = 20.75.

Hollinger Stats: Player Efficiency Rating - Point Guard
RNK Player GP Min FG% FT% TS% Ast TO Usg ORR DRR RebR PER
1 Chris Paul, NOR 32 37.6 .500 .878 .609 36.7 9.0 26.3 3.2 13.9 8.6 30.69
2 Devin Harris, NJN 31 36.2 .455 .833 .587 22.8 9.4 27.5 1.9 8.9 5.3 24.88
3 Tony Parker, SAS 26 33.6 .498 .808 .552 23.7 9.0 29.5 1.7 9.2 5.5 23.27
4 Chauncey Billups, DEN 35 35.4 .419 .897 .594 28.8 8.3 21.5 1.0 7.4 4.3 20.67
5 Jason Terry, DAL 35 34.9 .464 .858 .567 15.7 8.1 24.2 2.0 5.9 4.0 19.88
6 Jameer Nelson, ORL 31 31.7 .506 .877 .601 24.3 9.9 21.6 2.1 10.4 6.4 19.68
7 Mike Bibby, ATL 34 34.7 .460 .815 .579 25.7 7.2 20.4 1.6 10.4 6.1 19.32
8 Jose Calderon, TOR 31 35.5 .493 1.000 .633 41.0 10.2 17.6 0.9 10.1 5.6 19.07
9 Rajon Rondo, BOS 37 31.9 .515 .651 .559 37.9 12.9 18.7 4.8 12.6 8.9 18.96
10 Steve Nash, PHO 28 33.8 .480 .943 .613 35.2 15.4 21.6 0.5 9.2 5.1 17.85

[Lurker]

PER (and other stats that extrapolate numbers) don't imply that a player who plays 5 mpg can sustain productivity at 40 mpg.  What they are there to do is look at how productive you are when on the court.  As most stats, it can be used incorrectly.

I was addressing Lurkers post when I made the comments.

So what does "(3rd on a per 48 basis)" mean?

What does "MyTendex/48min" mean?

Maybe I shouldn't have capitolized "per" since it means something else.

Gee, Parker ranks 6th in Tendex ratings (3rd on a per 48 basis) and 6th in PER.  Not to mention (oops I did) that he is his team's leading scorer.  But the guy is overrated...

                                   Point Guards
               MyTendex     (min 20 games)      MyTendex/48min (min 20.0 min/gm)
        Player             Team MyTend          Player             Team Tend/48
  1) paul,chris            NOr   31.95     1) paul,chris            NOr  40.69
  2) harris,devin          NJN   23.40     2) harris,devin          NJN  31.09
  3) kidd,jason            Dal   21.39     3) parker,tony           San  29.67
  4) billups,chauncey      den   21.27     4) kidd,jason            Dal  28.97
  5) calderon,jose         Tor   21.14     5) billups,chauncey      den  28.84
  6) parker,tony           San   20.78     6) calderon,jose         Tor  28.62
  7) bibby,mike            Atl   19.44     7) rondo,rajon           Bos  28.40
  williams,deron        Uta   19.38      nelson,jameer         Orl  27.43
  9) nash,steve            Pho   19.10     9) nash,steve            Pho  27.19
 10) rondo,rajon           Bos   18.85    10) bibby,mike            Atl  26.93
  ** Avg for Position = 11.84.             ** Avg for Position = 20.75.

Hollinger Stats: Player Efficiency Rating - Point Guard
RNK Player GP Min FG% FT% TS% Ast TO Usg ORR DRR RebR PER
1 Chris Paul, NOR 32 37.6 .500 .878 .609 36.7 9.0 26.3 3.2 13.9 8.6 30.69
2 Devin Harris, NJN 31 36.2 .455 .833 .587 22.8 9.4 27.5 1.9 8.9 5.3 24.88
3 Tony Parker, SAS 26 33.6 .498 .808 .552 23.7 9.0 29.5 1.7 9.2 5.5 23.27
4 Chauncey Billups, DEN 35 35.4 .419 .897 .594 28.8 8.3 21.5 1.0 7.4 4.3 20.67
5 Jason Terry, DAL 35 34.9 .464 .858 .567 15.7 8.1 24.2 2.0 5.9 4.0 19.88
6 Jameer Nelson, ORL 31 31.7 .506 .877 .601 24.3 9.9 21.6 2.1 10.4 6.4 19.68
7 Mike Bibby, ATL 34 34.7 .460 .815 .579 25.7 7.2 20.4 1.6 10.4 6.1 19.32
8 Jose Calderon, TOR 31 35.5 .493 1.000 .633 41.0 10.2 17.6 0.9 10.1 5.6 19.07
9 Rajon Rondo, BOS 37 31.9 .515 .651 .559 37.9 12.9 18.7 4.8 12.6 8.9 18.96
10 Steve Nash, PHO 28 33.8 .480 .943 .613 35.2 15.4 21.6 0.5 9.2 5.1 17.85

Unfortunately the website posts both the tendex rating for actual minutes played as well as "48 min basis".  And the other two lists posted use only actual minutes played.  I even posted to ignore the "per 48" numbers and focus on the others.  But you got so hung up on the per 48 minutes that you ignored all the other evidence.  Typical.

[WayOutWest]

Unfortunately the website posts both the tendex rating for actual minutes played as well as "48 min basis".  And the other two lists posted use only actual minutes played.  I even posted to ignore the "per 48" numbers and focus on the others.  But you got so hung up on the per 48 minutes that you ignored all the other evidence.  Typical.

What "evidence"?  That Tony is a top 10 PG?