Will the REAL "big three" please stand up.

[westkoast]

That is why I don't feel he's overrated.  In fact if you asked average NBA fans who the best PGs in the league are I bet Tony Parker doesn't even make a lot of peoples list.  In fact I'd assume Rondo would probably be picked by most over TP.

  ***GASP***  

Rondo over TP?  Now there is a point guard dependant on a system.  

I disagree with it.  My point was that how can he be overrated when most NBA fans don't rate him that high.  Guys like Rondo, Baron Davis, D-Will, CP3, etc all would be picked over Parker by average NBA fans.

All but Rondo SHOULD be picked ahead of TP. 

Ya of course those 3 should.  There are other point guards who would probably be picked over him as well that probably are not as deserving.

[WayOutWest]

1. CP3
2. DWill
3. Nash
4. Parker
5. Billups


Waivering on replacing someone with Harris.  

Try #4 since he doesn't belong on the list.

[SPURSX3]

1. CP3
2. DWill
3. Nash
4. Parker
5. Billups


Waivering on replacing someone with Harris.  

Try #4 since he doesn't belong on the list.

Actually it could be #4, but I am giving the edge to Parker becaue I have seen how he has grown into the player he is today - even though Harris was always his nightmare in Dallas - I have seen Tony get better each season.  Even if he is a "cheese-eating-surrender-monkey."

[Lurker]

Gee, Parker ranks 6th in Tendex ratings (3rd on a per 48 basis) and 6th in PER.  Not to mention (oops I did) that he is his team's leading scorer.  But the guy is overrated...

                                   Point Guards
               MyTendex     (min 20 games)      MyTendex/48min (min 20.0 min/gm)
        Player             Team MyTend          Player             Team Tend/48
  1) paul,chris            NOr   31.95     1) paul,chris            NOr  40.69
  2) harris,devin          NJN   23.40     2) harris,devin          NJN  31.09
  3) kidd,jason            Dal   21.39     3) parker,tony           San  29.67
  4) billups,chauncey      den   21.27     4) kidd,jason            Dal  28.97
  5) calderon,jose         Tor   21.14     5) billups,chauncey      den  28.84
  6) parker,tony           San   20.78     6) calderon,jose         Tor  28.62
  7) bibby,mike            Atl   19.44     7) rondo,rajon           Bos  28.40
  williams,deron        Uta   19.38      nelson,jameer         Orl  27.43
  9) nash,steve            Pho   19.10     9) nash,steve            Pho  27.19
 10) rondo,rajon           Bos   18.85    10) bibby,mike            Atl  26.93
  ** Avg for Position = 11.84.             ** Avg for Position = 20.75.

Hollinger Stats: Player Efficiency Rating - Point Guard
RNK Player GP Min FG% FT% TS% Ast TO Usg ORR DRR RebR PER
1 Chris Paul, NOR 32 37.6 .500 .878 .609 36.7 9.0 26.3 3.2 13.9 8.6 30.69
2 Devin Harris, NJN 31 36.2 .455 .833 .587 22.8 9.4 27.5 1.9 8.9 5.3 24.88
3 Tony Parker, SAS 26 33.6 .498 .808 .552 23.7 9.0 29.5 1.7 9.2 5.5 23.27
4 Chauncey Billups, DEN 35 35.4 .419 .897 .594 28.8 8.3 21.5 1.0 7.4 4.3 20.67
5 Jason Terry, DAL 35 34.9 .464 .858 .567 15.7 8.1 24.2 2.0 5.9 4.0 19.88
6 Jameer Nelson, ORL 31 31.7 .506 .877 .601 24.3 9.9 21.6 2.1 10.4 6.4 19.68
7 Mike Bibby, ATL 34 34.7 .460 .815 .579 25.7 7.2 20.4 1.6 10.4 6.1 19.32
8 Jose Calderon, TOR 31 35.5 .493 1.000 .633 41.0 10.2 17.6 0.9 10.1 5.6 19.07
9 Rajon Rondo, BOS 37 31.9 .515 .651 .559 37.9 12.9 18.7 4.8 12.6 8.9 18.96
10 Steve Nash, PHO 28 33.8 .480 .943 .613 35.2 15.4 21.6 0.5 9.2 5.1 17.85

[WayOutWest]

Gee, Parker ranks 6th in Tendex ratings (3rd on a per 48 basis) and 6th in PER.  Not to mention (oops I did) that he is his team's leading scorer.  But the guy is overrated...

With the possible exception of OJ Mayo, my list still stands.

I don't put too much into the PER and stuff like that since a players output will without a doubt drop with extended minutes over the course of a season.  The games stats are what I look at since it's the "real world", no computer number crunching needed.

[Joe Vancil]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

[WayOutWest]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

I was considering him but he is being so underutilized in Dallas despite the solid non-scoring numbers across the board.

[Lurker]

Gee, Parker ranks 6th in Tendex ratings (3rd on a per 48 basis) and 6th in PER.  Not to mention (oops I did) that he is his team's leading scorer.  But the guy is overrated...

With the possible exception of OJ Mayo, my list still stands.

I don't put too much into the PER and stuff like that since a players output will without a doubt drop with extended minutes over the course of a season.  The games stats are what I look at since it's the "real world", no computer number crunching needed.

And after 30+ games of the season the stats won't change that much.  So objective numbers mean nothing to your subjective analysis and thus we should believe your opinion over various logical analysis.  Here is the efficiency ratings (for all guards not just PGs) from NBA.com...but then you won't trust another numerical/statistical analysis.

2008-09 EFFICIENCY LEADERS :  Efficiency Per Game  
Displaying results 1-50 of 167 found
Results:   1-50  51-100  101-150  151-167   Next ?
 
PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PTS EFF RPG APG STPG BLKPG EFF48M EFF
1 Chris Paul , NOH   32 37.7  20.7  29.7  5.2  11.5  2.8  0.16  37.91  29.69  
2 Dwyane Wade , MIA   34 37.8  28.7  27.2  5.1  7.0  2.2  1.56  34.55  27.21  
3 Kobe Bryant , LAL   34 35.7  26.9  24.2  5.3  4.3  1.4  0.38  32.62  24.24  
4 Brandon Roy , POR   31 37.1  23.0  22.1  4.5  5.3  1.0  0.39  28.56  22.1  
5 Devin Harris , NJN   31 36.2  23.1  21.9  3.2  6.6  1.6  0.16  29.11  21.94  
6 Joe Johnson , ATL   34 40.0  22.5  21.2  4.8  6.1  1.1  0.41  25.37  21.18  
7 Vince Carter , NJN   36 37.1  22.7  20.7  4.9  4.7  0.9  0.44  26.74  20.69  
8 Tony Parker , SAS   26 33.6  20.9  19.6  3.0  6.7  0.8  0.08  28.05  19.62  
9 Jason Kidd , DAL   35 35.4  8.6  19.4  6.5  8.3  2.5  0.46  26.23  19.4  
10 Chauncey Billups , DEN-DET   35 35.4  18.0  19.3  2.6  6.9  1.5  0.2  26.13  19.29  
 

We could boil it down to stats that you understand WOW:

Rings:
#1 Parker
#2 tie Billups
#2 tie Rondo
#2 tie Jason Williams

[westkoast]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

He scores 8 points a game and Dallas is going to miss the playoffs. 

Kidd defense now is overrated but he is still  a hell of a passer but no way, at this point in time, would I pick Jason Kidd over Tony Parker.

Sorry Joe but if you are going to say Tony Parker's shot is just coming around (Even tho it's been around for 3 seasons now) you cannot say that Kidd's defense is still very good.  He often gets torched by quicker guards.  I wouldn't say he's good.

[Joe Vancil]

Actually, wouldn't that be:

#1 (tie).  Tony Parker
#1 (tie).  Derek Fisher

If we're going to talk rings, why isn't Fisher being mentioned?  Heck - where's Tyronn Lue?

I'd agree that rings should be mentioned, but only in the event that he's the major contributor to those rings.  And that's not Parker;  it's Duncan.

I'm actually going to argue that point guard, by definition, cannot be reduced to sheer numbers.  In dealing with this type of player, you have to look at system, suitability to other systems, ability to impact game, and efficiency with the game on the line.  Numbers like free throw percentage - a long-standing Parker weakness until he's picked it up this year - figure in in ways that do not show up in PER.

That means point guard - moreso than most other spots - *IS* substantially based on individual judgement.

I realize that's somewhat of a cop-out, since I know the numbers say otherwise.  But that really is my take on ranking point guards.

A great example:  T.J. Ford.  Here's a guy whose worth you can't measure by his numbers.  Compare that with a healthy Jamaal Tinsley.  When push comes to shove, you find Ford is a winner and Tinsley is a bum.

[SPURSX3]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

He scores 8 points a game and Dallas is going to miss the playoffs. 

He is a solid defender and a hell of a passer but no way, at this point in time, would I pick Jason Kidd over Tony Parker.

Sorry Joe but if you are going to say Tony Parker's shot is just coming around (Even tho it's been around for 3 seasons now) you cannot say that Kidd's defense is still there. 

It's the same vision that makes him see TP as overrated...

[westkoast]

I'd agree that rings should be mentioned, but only in the event that he's the major contributor to those rings.  And that's not Parker;  it's Duncan.

He won the finals MVP and he did a lot of damage to YOUR Utah Jazz just two seasons ago.  I would say he's a major contributor.

[Lurker]

Also, Joe, about Parker's passing.  His assist/to ratio (2.64) is basically the same as D-Will (2.76) and better than Nash (2.29), Harris (2.44) and Wade (1.84).

And WOW - Mayo is 49th among guards in assists while having an assist/to ratio of 1.14.  He plays more minutes than Parker but averages less points, less than half the assists and shoots lower percentages from the floor.  If Parker isn't close to top 5 than Mayo is even further away.

[Joe Vancil]

I still can't believe that people are writing Jason Kidd out of the list of top point guards.

I grant you - Kidd can't shoot.  But he can pass, he can score effectively, he's a good defender, and a monster on the boards.  Definitely belongs ahead of Parker.

He scores 8 points a game and Dallas is going to miss the playoffs. 

Kidd defense now is overrated but he is still  a hell of a passer but no way, at this point in time, would I pick Jason Kidd over Tony Parker.

Sorry Joe but if you are going to say Tony Parker's shot is just coming around (Even tho it's been around for 3 seasons now) you cannot say that Kidd's defense is still very good.  He often gets torched by quicker guards.  I wouldn't say he's good.

I'll argue that.  Parker's shot has "come around" because he's not taking nearly as many 3-pointers as he did.  Instead, he's focusing on his inside scoring.  The last three seasons (plus this one), correspond with his lower three-pointers taken, and not surprisingly, higher field goal percentages, and more free throws.  That's what's SUPPOSED to happen when you cut back on shots you can't hit and concentrate on getting into the lane.  When you go form 150+ 3-pointers a year to a high of 66 in a year (last year - the other two were 36 and 38), if your percentage doesn't go up radically, you're not playing in the NBA.

[Joe Vancil]

Lurker,

And, again, you're pulling a number out that I have very little respect for - assists per turnover.

Turnovers and assists have very little to do with each other.  You can avoid a turnover by simply chucking up a bad shot (ala Nick Van Exel).  Likewise, when you've got a Tim Duncan, you should be getting tons of assists if you have half a brain.  (See Jameer Nelson for what happens if you don't.)

If you want to look at an assist-based number to try to judge passing ability, look at assists per minute.  (The numbers below are per 48).

1.  Paul  14.6
2.  D. Williams  13.7
3.  M. Williams (GS)  12.6
4.  Nash   12.1
5.  Calderon  11.8
6.  Atkins (Den)  11.6   <---WTF?
7.  Rodriguez (Por) 11.3
8.  Kidd 11.3
9.  Rondo, 11.3
10. Watson (OKC) 11.1

Then you've got Solomon, Knight, Baron Davis, Vaughn, and Duhon.  Then you have Anthony Carter and Tony Parker tied.  Billups - a noted gunner - is right behind.  Then you get to Dunleavy and Wade - who don't play point, Demtrius Nichols (who has played 2 games), Harris, LeBron, Sessions (Milw.), and Stuckey.  Parker is NOT a dangerous passer.

Parker is, however, not bad about turning the ball over.  He's 33rd.  Ties him with Ben Gordon.  Heck, it ties him with BENO UDRIH.  (Ask Skander what he thinks of Udrih's turnovers.)

Bottom line:  Parker's passing is hardly elite.