MJ won only after six years of futility and without any help up to then, which pretty much covers LeBron's career up to now as well, as he has just entered his sixth season. If Jordan or LeBron had a Shaq-type player in his prime as a teammate, it would have been a similar situation that could be compared. But because Kobe had Shaq, I guess you just can not comprehend how easy a skilled player like Kobe could make that work for himself. Maybe you can by just observing how many championships Kobe has won on his own since Shaq was traded.
Ok but you are already awarding Lebron titles he has not got yet. You assume if he had help he would have already won and that is a 'crystal ball' comment. The Celtics are pretty good right now. Having another player with him does not give him the trophy automatically. Us Laker fans thought that with Pau Gasol, we learned the hard way. Nothing is 'for sure' in this league so I don't think you are on with this one.
How many has Shaq won with out a dominating player on the perimeter? 0 W.O.W has already gone over this so I won't repeat it. With out Kobe the Lakers do not win those championships. With out Shaq they don't win them. They needed BOTH players and BOTH players deserve credit. If you really want to start breaking down regular season contributions and playoff contributions you will see it's a lot more even than people who don't watch the Lakers day in and day say. Shaq's skills dropped from that first year and a half. Yet the Lakers continued to win. So it's easy to see Kobe benefitted from Shaq and that Shaq benefitted with Kobe. That was a great and dominating team thanks in part to Kobe Bryant.
Are you counting?
Yes 0. The same amount Shaq has won with out a player who completely can dominate a game from the perimeter. He won 0 in Orlando with out a player of that caliber and he won 0 in LA with a player of that caliber. He is going to win 0 in PHX. Again, proping up Shaq because you dislike Kobe a great deal really doesn't work.
Maybe you haven't really paid attention to the last two playoff runs leading up to a title for Shaq he was carried by those same two dominating players we've been refering to.
Sure Kobe was given the chance to win games. He still is, but he has yet to actually win a championship without that fallback guy taking triple coverage down low to free him up consistently.
Just to throw this out there because you don't watch Laker games often....there have been many games where Shaq was not in the game due to foul trouble (so no QUADRUPLE TEAM cuz if we are going to exaggerate this happened often lets go all the way) that were won by Kobe. Not all teams double teamed Shaq every single game. The Spurs rarely doubled Shaq. The Wolves did not double Shaq for parts of the series in the WCF. By the time the 2nd and 3rd championships rolled around teams were not doubling him as much because of the improvement of Kobe Bryant. Let's not re-write history that was only a handful of years ago. It is still fresh in the minds of people who's minds are fresh
I don't know, but maybe you should consider that before crowning Kobe as the best individual player currently playing. And my point, by the way, is not how Kobe has played the last four years or so, when he was the best player in the League, but that LeBron, THIS SEASON, has played better and looks to have passed him up in overall skill. Including defense, where he blocks more shots and gets more steals. More assists too. Kobe's teammates can't catch his passes either?
Maybe you should consider other things as well. Take some of your own advice. It looks like I've actually agreed with some of your points and did say I felt Lebron James would surpass Kobe eventually. You dislike the guy so much you are not considering anything else.
Sorry JoMaL but if you were trying your hardest to not give Kobe his props for what he has done for years now why makes you act like its crazy for someone not to just hand it to Lebron James after 20 games? Yes he is doing well. No one can deny that. That title has best individual player in my mind spans a longer distance than just one fifth of a season.
As for catching passes, Kobe does not run his offense. Lebron James does. If you take a look at Pau Gasol's assists at the end of games you will see where some of them are going. Or Lamar or some of the other better passers on this team. With Pau Gasol's passing ability and Kobe trusting his teammates more he has a lesser role in the offense. He doesn't have to create nearly as much. They don't have to rely on him to create. And this is why I see Lebron starting to move in the direction of eventually passing Kobe because of his court vision. He is a much better passer than Kobe and I think that's what seperates them when it is all said and done. Lebron is not a better scorer than Kobe Bryant. There is a whole lot more stats than just the current PPG that proves that. Kobe Bryant, when he gets hot, is still the deadliest scorer in this league. I honestly feel that is not debatable.
As you know this is not hockey so you do not get an assist if you make the right pass to a player who makes the right pass. The Lakers offense currently does not run where Kobe just drives and kicks over and over.
Championships are nice as a fallback in defense of a player's abilities, as they can tend to inflate a player's abilities or reveal them for what they are even more. They clearly revealed MJ's, but Kobe has that Shaq thing hanging over him that just makes you think - If LeBron had Shaq as a teammate, how would he have done as far as championships up to now? All we can do is look at how each is doing on their own, for the most part. The Lakers are skilled in keeping the talent level very high around Kobe. The Cavs are still working on that. In the mean time, LeBron seems to be doing a better overall job this season, even though both teams are way above average. I still maintain his abilities are looking better overall then Kobe's are.
Championships are the whole point teams play the regular season and the playoffs. Stop trying to diminish the highest achievement in this league to try to add to your argument.
On top of winning a championship winning 3 in a row is a very tough thing to do. Only 3 teams have been able to do that. 3 of the best teams in history. Going 16-1 is a record that has not been broken yet. It was more than just being a championship team once, it was being the #2 (and sometimes #1) key player in one of the greatest teams of all time. Your bitterness is shinning like the California sun here as usual. You don't want to admit any of this or want to ignore it. This however is FACT. That Laker squad was one of the best teams of all time. With out Kobe that team wouldn't have been great. I think that is also a fact. Again, ditto for Shaq but clearly they benefitted from each other. If the Celtics repeat this year are you going to down play what Kevin Garnett does because he had Paul Pierce? Probably not.
This really is not that relevant to my arguement, wk. Kobe had his moments in the playoffs with Shaq, to be sure. But I still maintain he was ONLY in those championship games in the first place because of a certain teammate he had. Take Shaq out of those Laker teams and it stretches the imagination to think the Lakers would have been as successful. They may have still won a championship, but not three.
Moments are small spots in time. He had 3 entire years of getting things done in the playoffs. The Lakers wouldn't have been as good as they were with out Kobe Bryant.
I would like to re-visit a famous play to prove my point. What kicked off the Lakers 3-peat was a come back in Portland. The Lakers were getting their butts kicked and made a push on the back of Shaq and Kobe. The nail in the coffin or the breaking point was Kobe juking out 2 players to throw a lob to Shaq for a slam. Now think about that for a second.......
Let me make it simpler for you. Kobe WAS the best player in the League the prior four seasons. I completely agree with you. From my observations of BOTH players this year, the Best Player In The League banner has passed over to LeBron. Based on that fact you pointed out that neither has won a championship yet, then clearly Paul Pierce is better then either, right? Forgetting for the moment the contributions of Garnett and Allen in making last year possible, of course.
Again so reluctant to give him props prior, so quick to give them to another. This season is not over. If you want to say he looks better than Kobe does in the first 20 games, I will agree. Completely being better than Kobe, not yet.
You are right on this one. They both have benefitted from blowouts to take some fourth quarters off. Lately, though, LeBron is getting to rest more frequently, though as we know, that will change when the Cavs play better teams.
Or not, to be fair. They look really good and better than the Lakers. You might see Kobe's numbers go up and Lebron's go down which is why I don't really agree with you posting the stats and only going off 20 games. If the Cavs continue to play well, he rests. If the Lakers continue to play poor like they have then Kobe is going to get more minutes and his stats will go up.
Up until they played the defensive teams in the playoffs, that is. Is that what you meant?
They did blow out those defensive teams at times....but we can't really compare regular season defense and playoff defense.
