Author Topic: Seeking Opinions  (Read 4176 times)

jemagee

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Seeking Opinions
« on: November 05, 2008, 03:22:40 PM »
So

You work somewhere for 5 years and do like nine jobs - and you work your ass off for the job (trust me, i know it doesn't seem like it but i do)

You find out that someone hired who can really only do one limited task and can't grow like they hoped because of rigidity in personality was hired at the same salary you are at - 5 years into the job.

What's a good way to tell the boss you know without it seeming like you were snooping - i honestly did find out accidentally - but it's been nawing at me for a while.

At the same time i found out two less useful employees (one of which gone one leaving hopefully soon) were being grossly over paid compared to the work they did

Not really good at the 'i deserve more money' negotiations - plus the company i work for has a tight budget as it is so i'm also looking for any type of suggestioins that would get me 'more money' without costing the company as much - i mean a 5,000 raise (for the year) costs the company more than 5K because of taxes, plus after the taxes, it's only like 3500 for me

Any suggestions or tips - there seem to be a lot of financially oriented people here

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 03:41:43 PM »
The problem appears to be that you are underappreciated at your current position, and that you have several examples of situations where other employees were paid as much or more in spite of being less valuable to the company.

You've already invested 5 working years at the job and would presumably like to stay there, but be compensated at a higher level.

Objectively, it appears that management doesn't know what it's doing, since it apparently doesn't reward performance. While it's good to be considerate of the company's position, your first job is to look out for you.

If you could make a lateral move to a different company, a competitor, that might be an easier and better way forward. The important thing is to consider your future and your financial objectives.  Does the job pay you adequately and are you getting annual raises?  Do you enjoy good benefits, health and retirement?

Before anyone can give you good advice you have to tell them more about what you want and what might be realistic.  How much more do you legitimately deserve to be paid? How much underpaid are you now and for how long?  Do you really see a good future with this company? 

jemagee

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 03:49:48 PM »
Quote
If you could make a lateral move to a different company, a competitor, that might be an easier and better way forward. The important thing is to consider your future and your financial objectives.  Does the job pay you adequately and are you getting annual raises?  Do you enjoy good benefits, health and retirement?

And this is the huge problem

I don't have easily 'identifiable' skills - i have  a masters degree, but don't use it, i have multiple skills in a variety of areas but no 'certifications' - i can solve most problems - i'm the ultimate back office person in that i can figure out almost anything on an operational side and solve problems - however, as you might guess, a traditional office / professional environ wouldn't work for me as i have a probably clashing with people - i suck at office politics - part of the reasons i keep jobs is because i'm indispensable - they really can't afford to fire me without a replacement.

My boss is good at MANY things, she's very creative, but day to day business not so much, and she also doesn't have the skill i like to refer to as 'knowing what you don't know' - she also has a slight gender bias that while not overt is also i think a factor

My title is operations manager - i make 65K a year - Teeccino is a growing company doing about 2 mil in sales this year but growing (hopefully) at the same time there's been some bad expenses and weak exmployees who are being culled so the belt is tightening (and it's a damn recession).

In an ideal world where the money wasn't an issue i figure i'm worth low six figures to this company cause if i died tomorrow they'd be screwed.

What I want to say is that aside from my boss (the CEO who draws a salary) there's no one here with the seniority OR irreplacability that I have and I should make at least 10% more than the next highest paid employee (after the CEO)

Believe it or not, this company has been around for 14 years and hasn't made a profit yet, hopefully things are turning around and it will make a profit next year and then the year after growth again and someone buys it and my stock options become worth value - and i have a crap load of options at a very good price, if we even get 8-10 a share for the company when it gets purchased i'm going to be able to not work for a long time and pay off all my debts by 40...but i know that's a nice dream but it's just an imaginary carrot right now (others here think they are important, i realize they are a no cost imaginary incentive at this time)

My problem is that i can't afford really to make LESS money - and moving right now isn't a huge option either.

Santa Barbara is what i call a vortex - i make enough money to live here - pay off my bills - but i don't really make enough to SAVE after all my expenses and such even by cutting back as best i can - i can't be THAT frugal - can't help it - not in my DNA


Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 04:38:21 PM »
Believe it or not, this company has been around for 14 years and hasn't made a profit yet, hopefully things are turning around and it will make a profit next year and then the year after growth again and someone buys it and my stock options become worth value - and i have a crap load of options at a very good price, if we even get 8-10 a share for the company when it gets purchased i'm going to be able to not work for a long time and pay off all my debts by 40...but i know that's a nice dream but it's just an imaginary carrot right now (others here think they are important, i realize they are a no cost imaginary incentive at this time)

The answer was easy until you mentioned this item.  I have found, durring my 16 year career, that you don't get what you deserve, you get what you get.  You have to ask for what you want to get the ball rolling.  I worked for a good company back in 1994 to 1998, I was happy to get hired at 36K with 6% anual raises. After 3 years I get a call from an old associate offering me 58K at the time I was making 40K.  I asked my boss for a raise from 40K to 58K.  They offered me 50K, right there and then I was both happy at the offer and pissed that I hadn't been offerred that before because I was doing a lot more than most people at the office.  We went back and forth till I got 56K and stayed with the company.  I really liked the company I was working for plus I didn't like the working enviroment of my associates company (he was retiring and I was going to replace him).  That experience set the standard for my salary "negotiating".  I actually left a few months later even though I got pretty much what I wanted because I had the opportunity to work with a real talented friend.

You need to determine what $$ will make you happy, what $$ will keep you there, and what $$ will definately make you walk out the door.  The best way to accurately guage your $$'s worth is to test the market.  You may believe that 100K is what you're worth but if nobody in your position/experience/skill set is making that then you need to re-evaluate your salary demands.  It always helps to have a few offers on the table so you can walk away from the table and not feel forced into accepting an offer from your company.  You also need to understand that it might become apparent to your company that you are not happy after a salary negotiation and they may be looking for your replacement and you could also leave a bad taste in the mouth of your company. 

You don't need to come out and tell your company you have another offer because at that point you and your company are just going to walk away with bad feelings.  If they will not meet your salary demands you have to be prepared to walk away, any other way and you'll be negotiating from a position of weakness.

The stock options make it difficult, I've been there as well and it was a tough decision.
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 04:45:39 PM »
What are you working for, if you don't have anything to show for it later?  Not having savings, living on credit is not a good way to be, ever.  It seems like you are being paid a good salary, but I have no idea of the cost of living in Santa Barbara.  You may not want to live frugally, but conditions seem to be demanding that of you.  You have to consider what things will be like when you can't work, or don't want to.

What about raises and reviews?  It sounds like the company doesn't have a set procedure and the decisions are made by your boss. If you're not getting annual reviews, then it's possible your boss has overlooked your valuable contributions.

The way to proceed here depends a great deal on your relationship with your boss. You don't want to do anything to jeopardize your position, but at the same time you do think your worth another 35K plus.

If you haven't had a performance review in a while that would be a good place to start. See about asking for one, which will at least give you the chance to go over all the wonderful things you've done for the company! It will also give you the chance to ask her about the business and get a feeling for how strong conditions are and maybe get a hint at how amenable she might be to giving you a raise.

What's important here is to look at how the company has dealt with these things in the past.  In a start-up firm a lot of things don't get addressed until the company is established.  It's a reasonable thing for employees to be evaluated from time to time and it's good for both the business and employee.

Another big question- what if anything is keeping the company from being profitable right now?  If you could make a difference that way, your stock options might take care of your problem for you.




Offline Ted

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2008, 04:53:10 PM »
Believe it or not, this company has been around for 14 years and hasn't made a profit yet,

Geez, that's tough. Not many companies make it that long without some kind of profit. If your company doesn't start turning a profit soon and you still aren't getting what you deserve, I'd start getting realistic about the actual value of those options and start to look for a profitable company that will value your skills appropriately.
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jemagee

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2008, 05:11:23 PM »
OH - the options have no value - i'm giving it one more year

The company has had two 'reboots' and with the new launch this year of revised ingredients and new packaging i'm trying to look at it like the 'first' year of the new company - the problems though are the same - and it's not hte product - it's the boss - and if she isn't going to realize what is and isn't realistic - well next year i'll be moving to port byron new york....woo hoo

(btw - if anyone has health issues with caffeine / or just misses postum http://www.teeccino.com)


Offline Ted

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2008, 05:22:32 PM »
OH - the options have no value - i'm giving it one more year

The company has had two 'reboots' and with the new launch this year of revised ingredients and new packaging i'm trying to look at it like the 'first' year of the new company - the problems though are the same - and it's not hte product - it's the boss - and if she isn't going to realize what is and isn't realistic - well next year i'll be moving to port byron new york....woo hoo

(btw - if anyone has health issues with caffeine / or just misses postum http://www.teeccino.com)

You've got some good endorsements there. Siegel and Weil are big players. I haven't met them, but I have met Kat James, and she is really sharp. You've obviously got a viable product. Good luck!
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

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jemagee

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2008, 05:30:42 PM »
Oh i've met kat james too - she kind of freaks me out

Weil is great but wants too much darn money for even a product review to get a mention on his site - hell we had a mention in their discussion forum once accidentally and got 4 times the normal orders on our web site in one day (and this is when i was still entering them manually ;))

Ted - if you or anyone you know wants some free samples, let me know, more than happy to provide them and we think we do make a good postum replacment (however, we aren't available in  a single serving version just yet)

Offline Ted

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2008, 05:37:19 PM »
Oh i've met kat james too - she kind of freaks me out

Yeah, she's pretty intense. I know some people, including me, who would probably be interested. One co-worker has 6-cup-a-day habit she's trying to break. She might like it. What do you need?
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

jemagee

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2008, 05:39:11 PM »
well depends on how much information you want to provide - we got 10 flavors - so some info about the 'taste' profile of the interested parties would help but i can just drop a sampler pack in the mail...with a one cup brewer to make it (our big weakness is the brewing problem) i just need an address to send it to - you can email me at john@teeccino.com

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2008, 05:53:16 PM »
First of all, the general rule is don't expect 6 figures unless you're management.

Stock options:  they're generally not worth as much as you think.  Keep in mind that they're often negotiated during a buy-out of your company.  Most of my Storage Trust stock options were nothing but throw-away paper when Public Storage bought us out, because if they were above the buy-out price, they were worth NOTHING.  And this "repackaging" of your company makes it sound to me like it's looking for a BUYER.

In Missouri, in your situation, the one thing you should NEVER do is mention anything about knowing ANYONE else's salary.  Such "accidental" information MAY be an offense worthy of termination.  I know that in my case, disclosure of salary information is covered specifically in the Employee Handbook.  It has been everywhere I've ever gone.

Also, anyone who puts their boss in the situation of "pay me this, or I walk" generally will get that salary - for a VERY limited time...specifically, just long enough to train someone to replace you.

Your best option - in most cases - is to find a new job and walk away with class and dignity.  On your exit interview, make it clear that the reason you left was "simply financial" - and leave it at that; don't nit-pick, bad-mouth, or over-explain.  Stay on good terms with your co-workers and bosses.  If you really were "indispensible," you leave the door open for the company you left to re-approach you, with an offer more to your liking.  But the serious truth is that no one is truly "indispensible" in a well-run company.

The real truth is that sometimes, the grass really *IS* greener on the other side.  I've never been unhappy leaving one job and going to the next.  And where I'm at now, I'm absolutely thrilled;  I'm well-treated, well-respected, and well-paid - working for a director who is a visionary, and a boss who works hard to make us better while simultaneously shielding us from any office politics.  It's a dream job.

Years ago, I had the opportunity to come to this company, and always took the "you'll really like it" with a grain of salt;  the person telling me about Carfax was prone to exaggeration and bragging.  Truth was, however, that he was CORRECT.  I could have saved myself a lot of lost nights of sleep by bolting for this job years prior.

At the same time, there's security in what you know.

And it really is up to you to make the call.
Joe

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jemagee

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2008, 06:00:59 PM »
Quote
First of all, the general rule is don't expect 6 figures unless you're management.

Well my title is operations manager - but i could also be called IT manager, web manager, production and purchasing manager

I AM the entirety of the 'non sales' staff except for the person who does the financials (who was the recent hire who started at my pay rate but doesn't have the felxibility to grow beyond what she knows)...

Keep in mind that this is a 'small business' operation, less than 10 employees, so if you have any experience at the 'small company trying to go big' thing you know where i'm coming from.

Quote
In Missouri, in your situation, the one thing you should NEVER do is mention anything about knowing ANYONE else's salary.  Such "accidental" information MAY be an offense worthy of termination.  I know that in my case, disclosure of salary information is covered specifically in the Employee Handbook.  It has been everywhere I've ever gone.

Also, anyone who puts their boss in the situation of "pay me this, or I walk" generally will get that salary - for a VERY limited time...specifically, just long enough to train someone to replace you.

Fortunately, it would be VERY hard to fire me and a replacement would take them a while to find and find the money to pay :)

Like i said earlier - due to my muddled 'resume' - i think ti would be hard for me to find equal pay - heck the only job i could find in the program i can call myself an expert in (filemaker pro) in the last two years was a 25% pay cut...a pay cut isn't reasonable or doable - i'm just trying to find the most tactful way to say "You know and I know that I should make more than anyone else - pay me that"


Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2008, 07:14:17 PM »
"You know and I know that I should make more than anyone else - pay me that"

Just say "pay me this".  You don't need to involve anyone else's pay.  Just be ready to justify your demands, based on your roles/responsibilities, accomplishments, and market rate.  Determining Market Rate usually involves getting another offer.
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jemagee

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Re: Seeking Opinions
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 10:58:19 AM »
Here's another thought I had

a 5,000 dollar raise isn't 5,000 dollars, it's less than 5,000 dollars to me (and if i understand correctly, MORE than 5,000 to the company because they ahve to pay taxes on that 5K in salary)

Is there some LEGAL way to get a 5,000 dollar raise that is 5,000 dollars - not exactly in money but in value? 

For isntance, someone who works here gets a monthly 'car allowance' that she believes won't be taxable (i don't buy it personally) at the end of the year...i had other thoughts along those lines - are there any tax proficient people here who have an idea if such things exist?