Spurs start season 0-3, WTF is going on?

[Lurker]

It's not like Manu is a super lock down defender.

No - but he's going to help the offensive tempo - i didn't realize the spurs had the least amount of possessions in the league - but one of the better performing offenses in the league WHEN they have the ball...the rebounding doesn't seem to be a huge problem per se in that they are mediocre at it - the FG% allowed though is atrocious....i have no idea if he would help with the turnover rate

Duncan and Parker are better defenders at their positions - but that's not the relevant question

The relevant question would be what is the net impact of the guys taking ginoblis place versus manu himself?

The spurs CAN NOT be allowing such a good eFG if they are going to run such a slow offense AND be one of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league...yes getting better on defense would help sure but maybe picking up the tempo on offense would help as well

The Spurs offense isn't as slow as most believe.  Looking just at possessions isn't enough.  Games slow down because the Spurs force their opponents to eat up the clock.  

Being middle of the pack for defensive rebounding percentage is a big drop off for the Spurs.  Giving up even 5 more offensive rwebounds than previously gives the opponents 5 more possessions.  Through 4 games the Spurs have given their opponents 31 additional possessions.  They also have given up 14 more offensive rebounds than they have grabbed.  The two biggest statistical differences are the number of assisted baskets (opponents have more assists than the Spurs) and rebounding.  If you really want to break it down we can but I would suggest that you study the Spurs statistics in depth for the past few years before we enter this discussion.

[jemagee]

The Spurs offense isn't as slow as most believe.  Looking just at possessions isn't enough.  Games slow down because the Spurs force their opponents to eat up the clock. 

Well, when your defense is one of the worst in the league - then yeah it matters - and focusing on reboudning as you seem to be doing ignores the other flaws in the spurs defensively this year....really not concerned with their 'history' cause it's this year, and not those years...they have the slowest offensive pace in the league and the worst defensive efficiency - that makes for a bad combination - especially when their slow pace/minimal posessions limits their best strength right now - one of the most efficient offenses (as measured) in the league

[westkoast]

The Spurs offense isn't as slow as most believe.  Looking just at possessions isn't enough.  Games slow down because the Spurs force their opponents to eat up the clock. 

Well, when your defense is one of the worst in the league - then yeah it matters - and focusing on reboudning as you seem to be doing ignores the other flaws in the spurs defensively this year....really not concerned with their 'history' cause it's this year, and not those years...they have the slowest offensive pace in the league and the worst defensive efficiency - that makes for a bad combination - especially when their slow pace/minimal posessions limits their best strength right now - one of the most efficient offenses (as measured) in the league

It's been at the top of the league for the past 9 though...so I don't think it matters as much as you think.  It's only  been 3 games.  I just never have seen this from the Spurs, excuses about rotations and injuries or not.

[jemagee]

well 4 now - and they got their first win - but needed double OT against the wolves - in minnesota

[Lurker]

The Spurs offense isn't as slow as most believe.  Looking just at possessions isn't enough.  Games slow down because the Spurs force their opponents to eat up the clock. 

Well, when your defense is one of the worst in the league - then yeah it matters - and focusing on reboudning as you seem to be doing ignores the other flaws in the spurs defensively this year....really not concerned with their 'history' cause it's this year, and not those years...they have the slowest offensive pace in the league and the worst defensive efficiency - that makes for a bad combination - especially when their slow pace/minimal posessions limits their best strength right now - one of the most efficient offenses (as measured) in the league

And what are those flaws oh great master of statistical analysis?

What is causing that bad defensive efficiency?

The slow pace also limits the opponents possessions therefore minimizing what you are calling the Spurs weakness: defensive effeciency.  If the other team doesn't have the ball then they can't exploit the Spurs bad efficiency.  Pace is only relative when you are trying to compare two teams with vastly different paces. 

Tell me...since you don't believe my analysis...what is causing the Spurs poor efficiency?

[Lurker]

BTW jemagee...you do realize that offensive and defensive efficiency is based on a standardized 100 possessions, right?  That adjusts for pace and takes away its relevancy for this discussion.

[jemagee]

Hmm....what's worse - being middle of the pack in defensive rebounding or being the WORST in the league at forcing turnovers and 'allowed eFG%'?

I don't know.

[Joe Vancil]

I'd argue that poor defensive rebounding is a BAD, BAD, BAD thing.

Offensive rebounds demoralize a defense.  When you work hard, get a stop, but because you can't claim the defensive rebound, the other team just simply starts over?  You're not going to be as effective defensively that second possession, and even less effective the third.

As far as I'm concerned, REBOUNDING is an absolute cornerstone of success.

[Lurker]

I'd argue that poor defensive rebounding is a BAD, BAD, BAD thing.

Offensive rebounds demoralize a defense.  When you work hard, get a stop, but because you can't claim the defensive rebound, the other team just simply starts over?  You're not going to be as effective defensively that second possession, and even less effective the third.

As far as I'm concerned, REBOUNDING is an absolute cornerstone of success.

The other factor is that offensive rebounds almost always end up with 1) a shorter 2nd possession and 2) a higher % shot.  Both of these items factor into a lower defensive efficiency. 

But focusing on rebounds is not the correct answer, Joe.   It is all about pace. 

[jemagee]

I'd argue that poor defensive rebounding is a BAD, BAD, BAD thing.

ANd I'd agree with you - the sixers are usually a horrible defensive rebounding team (many fans just look at the gross numbers and see that the sixers have more total rebounds so it's ok) but are one of the best on the offensive glass in the game (my unproveable argument is that dalembert and evans miss so many damn 2 feet bunnies and get their own rebounds that it's an over inflated percentage)...

But in terms of 'poor performance' the spurs are 'middle of the road' in terms of the defensive rebounding where as they are basement (out of 30 folks) in terms of eFG% and turnover rate...think about all the bad teams in the league that have better numbers in those two stats than the spurs, like the clippers, or the kings or the knicks...

[jemagee]

I'd argue that poor defensive rebounding is a BAD, BAD, BAD thing.

Offensive rebounds demoralize a defense.  When you work hard, get a stop, but because you can't claim the defensive rebound, the other team just simply starts over?  You're not going to be as effective defensively that second possession, and even less effective the third.

As far as I'm concerned, REBOUNDING is an absolute cornerstone of success.

The other factor is that offensive rebounds almost always end up with 1) a shorter 2nd possession and 2) a higher % shot.  Both of these items factor into a lower defensive efficiency. 

But focusing on rebounds is not the correct answer, Joe.   It is all about pace. 

And that's not what i said either - but why bother when you can go with the reality tactic.

[jemagee]

If you would bother to read it closely, as I've said repeatedly, there are OTHER defensive factors in which the spurs are god awful that I personally would find more worrisome than their middle of the road work on the defensive glass...two of them in fact....neither of which were pace...what I said was that if they increased their offensive game maybe that would OFFSET How GOD awful they are in many aspects of defense this year so far

[Lurker]

Hmm....what's worse - being middle of the pack in defensive rebounding or being the WORST in the league at forcing turnovers and 'allowed eFG%'?

I don't know.

It depends.  A more telling factor is net turnovers.  If a team forces 12 turnovers a game and commits 14 is that better than a team that forces only 9 a game but commits 8?

Same thing with FG%...effective or raw...the differential is a much more telling factor than the number itself.

For what it is worth...

05/06 FG difference .039 (#1 in league); rebounding diff 1.2 (#9), turnover diff  0.0 (#15),  asst diff 4.65  (#3)
06/07 FG difference .031 (#2 in league); rebounding diff 1.6 (#10), turnover diff  -0.49 (#19), asst diff 4.85  (#3)
07/08 FG difference .018 (#11 in league); rebounding diff -4.3 (#25), turnover diff -1.75 (#22), asst diff -4.75 (#28)

[Lurker]

If you would bother to read it closely, as I've said repeatedly, there are OTHER defensive factors in which the spurs are god awful that I personally would find more worrisome than their middle of the road work on the defensive glass...two of them in fact....neither of which were pace...what I said was that if they increased their offensive game maybe that would OFFSET How GOD awful they are in many aspects of defense this year so far

I have reread all the posts.  Show me the one where you name ANYTHING that is contributing to the low defensive efficiency?

And you still don't get the fact that efficiency is adjusted for pace.

[Reality]

Tony Parker 3rd person in NBA history to hit 55/10 assists

1. Oscar Robertson ('64-'65) - 56/12

2. Michael Jordan ('92-'93) - 57/10

3. Tony Parker ('08-'09) - 55/10

Another nice milestone from Tonys game:
The worldwide leader: In the era of NBA globalization, there is an important addendum to Spurs point guard Tony Parker's 55-point game against the Timberwolves on Wednesday night: It is the highest single-game output by an international player in league history.  Dallas forward Dirk Nowitzki, born in Germany, had the previous high, 53, in a game against Houston on Dec. 2, 2004. Nowitzki scored 51 against Golden State on March 23, 2006.

Houston center Hakeem Olajuwon, born in Nigeria, is the only other international player to crack the 50-point barrier with 52, in an overtime game against Denver on April 19, 1990.