Brand?

[Skates]

Hypothetically, how does it work a sign and trade involving TWO BYC players, does it make it easier or harder?

I.E.  Andre Iguodala signs with the sixers, ben gordon signs with the bulls, traded for each other...is that doable?
[/quote]

Dang, you beat me to it.  

[DuckyNinja]

Yes, but how many half-court teams have focused on efficiency and o-boarding vs. 3 point shooting?

Ok.  So find the championship team that built their team the way you're suggesting.  I'll await your findings.

Well, we don't have Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, or Jordan, so that pretty much leaves Detroit.  So I went back and looked at their 2004 finals:

Nobody hit more than 2 3 pointers in a game for them.  Billups and Wallace both hit 2 contributing to a team 6-12 in a game one win.  Billups and RIP both hit 2 contributing to a team 6-12 in a game two loss.  Billups and RIP both hit 2 contributing to a team 5-15 in a game three win.  Billups hit the only 2 in a 2-13 team effort in a game four win.  Their game 5 and clinching win was a team 2-14 effort that saw Sheed and Mehmet Okur each hit one.

Let's see what the Sixers have that is like the 2004 Pistons:
Crafty PG who can make things happen when the team really needs it: check
SF who grabs boards, is long, and plays good defense while getting lots of opportunity buckets: check
PF (if we get Brand) who can put points on the board: check
C who grabs boards and plays good defense: check

So we have a more legitimate post option than that team (Brand vs. Sheed).  The only question is can Iggy give what RIP did.  And I think with good teammates around him, he can.  So there, a team that shot a combined 15-54 from outside in their 4 finals wins that now have a ring.  How did they win it: offensive efficiency, stifling defense, and good rebounding on both ends of the floor.  I think with Brand, this team has that.  Plus, looking at their bench from 2004, LouWill is easily better than anybody they had unless you really like Elden Campbell or Lindsay Hunter.

Is that a good enough example of a team that didn't really have a lights out 3 point shooter that won the title?

[jemagee]

I'm waiting for santa barbara to 'tank' so i can take advantage, i want a damn house

[Derek Bodner]

Nobody hit more than 2 3 pointers in a game for them.  Billups and Wallace both hit 2 contributing to a team 6-12 in a game one win.  Billups and RIP both hit 2 contributing to a team 6-12 in a game two loss.  Billups and RIP both hit 2 contributing to a team 5-15 in a game three win.  Billups hit the only 2 in a 2-13 team effort in a game four win.  Their game 5 and clinching win was a team 2-14 effort that saw Sheed and Mehmet Okur each hit one.

That was a very good shooting team.  Rasheed and Okur are two of the best outside shooting big men of all time.  RIP is an incredible catch and shoot player, and Chauncey was very good as well.

Prince was probably their 5th best shooter, and he's better than anyone we have on this team.

I wouldn't say they had floor spacing issues at all.  in fact, 4 out of 5 of their starting 5 I would consider good outside shooters.  I never said you need a lights out 3 pt shooter.  I said we need good shooters to have good half court floor spacing.  Detroit had that.  We're not even close.

[jemagee]

Nobody hit more than 2 3 pointers in a game for them.  Billups and Wallace both hit 2 contributing to a team 6-12 in a game one win.  Billups and RIP both hit 2 contributing to a team 6-12 in a game two loss.  Billups and RIP both hit 2 contributing to a team 5-15 in a game three win.  Billups hit the only 2 in a 2-13 team effort in a game four win.  Their game 5 and clinching win was a team 2-14 effort that saw Sheed and Mehmet Okur each hit one.

You seem to be using a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument here...forcing the data to fit your theory.

How were other factors for the pistons, you mentioned offensive efficiency, where did they rank?  Where were they defensively, they were probably one of the top 5 in defensive efficiency in the league, where were they on the boards, both offensive and defensive...How does the sixers overall performance compare with that of the 2004 pistons, not in just one secondary category (i know 3s are important but i find other things more important than hitting the three)

[DuckyNinja]

You just said that you need to have a good 3 point shooter to win a championship.  I think Miller, Iggy, Thad, and Brand all have very good shots out to around 16-18 feet, plus Williams off the bench and whoever else they can find.  I do know that their low post options were Sheed and Big Ben, neither known for their low post game, unlike Brand.  I don't know how we stack up in every other category because we really have no idea how Iggy, Thad, and Williams are going to progress, nor do we know who else we'll get through trades or minimum signings or what not.  Nobody on that 2004 Pistons bench could score like Williams can or even like Green can.  That Pistons team did not shoot the 3 particularly well, at least in the finals.  Unless you really like 27% 3 point shooting.  Whether a Sixers lineup with Miller-Iggy-Thad-Brand-Dalembert can replicate what the Pistons did on defense is another question, but there's no reason that that lineup with a much better bench than the 2004 Pistons couldn't replicate the offensive success.

[jemagee]

I never said any such thing, and neither did dbodner, as he clarified, and you had to pick and choose when the overwhelming recent evidence points in the opposite direction...you need a lot of things to win an nba title, i posit that defensive rebounding efficiency is hella more important than 3 point shooting, and the sixers suck at that too

[Derek Bodner]

You just said that you need to have a good 3 point shooter to win a championship.  I think Miller, Iggy, Thad, and Brand all have very good shots out to around 16-18 feet

Yes, you do need 3 point shooters to be successful.  What i never said was that you need a lights out 3 point shooter.  Detroit had good 3 point shooters.  They didn't have reggie miller, but they were light years better than us.  They had 3 legitimate 3 point shooters in their starting lineup, along with a great catch and shoot player.  They got 3 pt shooting from unconventional spots (PF's) that opened up the lane that much more.  We currently have a PG and a SF that might not make 10 three's next year combined.  We don't have one catch and shoot player.  It's going to be a huge detriment to our half court offense.

[sixers hoops]

Since we would be under the cap when we sign Iguodala, I thought that means he would not be tagged as a BYC player.  If we go OVER the cap in signing him, does that negate that rule?

I'm pretty sure if we sign brand first and go over the cap, that negates the rule.  I'll try to look it up today.

But we can't sign Brand and go over the cap.  We can only sign Brand with what we have under the cap.

I think you may be right.  I was thinking since signing Iguodala would take us over the cap, but it looks like it's only if you're over the cap before signing the player.

Hypothetically, how does it work a sign and trade involving TWO BYC players, does it make it easier or harder?

I.E.  Andre Iguodala signs with the sixers, ben gordon signs with the bulls, traded for each other...is that doable?

My guess harder, unless both teams are under the cap. I think if the bulls send out Gordon at 8 million, then they can only take back 4 million. So they wouldn't be able to take back Iggy. There is a guy on realgm, Kill Buckner, who may know off the top of his head. If I get a chance, I'll post the question.

[DuckyNinja]

Okay, I said that the Sixers need to focus on offensive efficiency and o-boarding and don't need the 3, and DBods asked for an example, not you.  My fault.  But that is an example of a team that really won without hitting the 3.  And I think the Sixers are a good shooting team out to around 16 feet.  I never said the team would be good enough defensively or d-boarding to win a championship, because I was only arguing offense.  I do think with Brand, it would be a very good defensive and d-boarding team.  And if we could determine whether they were good enough to win a championship or not on paper, we wouldn't play the seasons now would we?

We could continue arguing whether or not you need even good 3 point shooters to be an effective offense (and we do have one, even if he's our 6th man).  I'll simply point out that we won 2 games last year in the playoffs with Reggie Evans and Willie Green getting major minutes.  Brand getting most of their minutes is a huge offensive AND defensive upgrade, especially since it allows Thad to slot down to SF where he's a lot more natural.

[shadowTerp]

Yes, you do need 3 point shooters to be successful.  What i never said was that you need a lights out 3 point shooter... We don't have one catch and shoot player.  It's going to be a huge detriment to our half court offense.

This is why I'm sad to see Carney go.  His shot really improved as the season went on, and I think his potential and style of play really fit this team well.  I really liked the idea of a 3-man rotation at the 2/3 of Iggy, Young and Carney, assuming that Iggy and Carney improved their outside shooting.

The other question is how much does Igoudala's 3P% go up, now that he'll be at the 2 and not drawing double teams.  He's going to have a  reach/height/jumping advantage over most 2 guards.

[DuckyNinja]

Yes, you do need 3 point shooters to be successful.  What i never said was that you need a lights out 3 point shooter... We don't have one catch and shoot player.  It's going to be a huge detriment to our half court offense.

This is why I'm sad to see Carney go.  His shot really improved as the season went on, and I think his potential and style of play really fit this team well.  I really liked the idea of a 3-man rotation at the 2/3 of Iggy, Young and Carney, assuming that Iggy and Carney improved their outside shooting.

The other question is how much does Igoudala's 3P% go up, now that he'll be at the 2 and not drawing double teams.  He's going to have a  reach/height/jumping advantage over most 2 guards.

Not only Iggy, but Thad (if he worked on his range over the summer, he definitely has the stroke to extend out there) and Smith (who I know was working on extending his range).

[Derek Bodner]

Okay, I said that the Sixers need to focus on offensive efficiency and o-boarding and don't need the 3, and DBods asked for an example, not you.  My fault.  But that is an example of a team that really won without hitting the 3

We're really not comparable though.  They did hit the 3.  2 of their 5 starting positions were above NBA average 3 point shooters.  They didn't take all that many 3's, but their floor spacing was there.  I don't think you can really dispute that they were much better in that vein than we were.

(they shot 34.4% from 3, which was just below the league average of 34.7%.  We shot 31%, which is well below the league average of 36%.)

In the end, they had 3 guys in their starting lineup (Billups, Prince, Sheed) that their man couldn't leave to double team because they were a threat to knock down the J.  We don't have that.  Andre Miller being able to hit a 16' jump shot doesn't prevent his man from doubling down on Brand in the post, or on doubling Iguodala on a drive.  Floor spacing is a huge issue.

I'll simply point out that we won 2 games last year in the playoffs

And I'll point out that we were a sub .500 team in a very mediocre eastern conference.  We're not one piece away from contending.

[Derek Bodner]

From Eskin (via Sixer Fixer):

So Eskin says the Clippers are trying to work a S/T with us for Brand, but he doesn't think that (the S/T) will happen. Seemed to indicate Brand will sign outright here. Says the Josh Smith interest is just window dressing. It's Eskin so take it for what it's worth.

I didn't have it on, because I can't stand Eskin, but I'm probably going to turn it on now.

[Derek Bodner]

BTW, I'm hurt the Fixer posted that at RealGM before here.  Betrayed