Player Movement Thread (Was Free Agency Thread)

[DuckyNinja]

This obsession with being able to hit a 3 is really starting to piss me off.

Get used to it.  Floor spacing is now the biggest weakness this team has.  Talent isn't the only thing needed to win, the talent also needs to form a cohesive unit and complement each other.

They have 4 guys in their starting lineup who can hit the 16-18 foot jumper consistently (Miller, Iggy, Thad, Brand) and hell, even Dalembert hits the elbow jumper from time to time.  Iggy is below average at 3 point shooting, but he's not a guy you can just leave alone out there.  Williams off the bench is a 36% 3 point shooter.  There's simply not many guys who can average 15 ppg or more AND consistently shoot the 3 at an above average clip.  I'm not comparing Iggy offensively to Lebron or Kobe, but his career average is better than Lebron's and just 1% below Kobe's, who has played with Shaq and now Gasol.  Really, if there's any argument to be made, it's that Thad should be a 30 minute 6th man and they should find a 25 mpg, 10 ppg type 3 point shooter to start and make sure either him or Williams are in almost at all times.  Like James Jones, who would be a perfect fit, and could probably be gotten for the vet minimum if he was promised a starting role on a contender.  There's no reason to replace a 20 ppg guy who is efficient and very well rounded with a lesser player.

[Derek Bodner]

There's simply not many guys who can average 15 ppg or more AND consistently shoot the 3 at an above average clip

Sure there are:
Peja
Richardson
Rashard Lewis
Stephen Jackson
Nash
Crawford
Mike Miller
Manu Ginobili
Granger
Joe Johnson
Dunleavy
Hedo
Ben Gordon
Leandro Barbosa
Michael Redd
Kobe Bryant (you keep bringing up career averages which is irrelevant to guys like Kobe who have improved dramatically)
Pierce
Kevin Martin
Billups
Terry
Artest
Ray Allen
These are guys who averaged at least 15 ppg, 1.5 three's per game and shot at least 36% from 3.

That's 23 of them.  Nearly 1 per team.  This team needs one of them to be an effective half court team.  This isn't about a love affair with 3 pointers.  This is about floor spacing and operating in a half court set.

[Skates]

Everyone relax and take a breath.  Let's get Elton's name on the dotted line and then look to re-sign Lou and Iggy.  Add one cheap shooter, a vet PG and a rookie FA.  Let the season play out a little.  We will know soon enough if we need more shooting and if we need to replace Miller next year.  If so moving Iggy for a PG and Miller for some shooters might even be the way to go. 

If some team comes hard after Iggy we can deal with it, but with Maggette going to GS it leaves the Clips and Griz as the only teams with money and both of them need bigs, not swing-men.  Hopefully, as the market stands Iggy does not have a ton of leverage and signs a nice deal around $11 million per for 5 years.

[DuckyNinja]

There's simply not many guys who can average 15 ppg or more AND consistently shoot the 3 at an above average clip

Sure there are:
Peja
Richardson
Rashard Lewis
Stephen Jackson
Nash
Crawford
Mike Miller
Manu Ginobili
Granger
Joe Johnson
Dunleavy
Hedo
Ben Gordon
Leandro Barbosa
Michael Redd
Kobe Bryant (you keep bringing up career averages which is irrelevant to guys like Kobe who have improved dramatically)
Pierce
Kevin Martin
Billups
Terry
Artest
Ray Allen
These are guys who averaged at least 15 ppg, 1.5 three's per game and shot at least 36% from 3.

That's 23 of them.  Nearly 1 per team.  This team needs one of them to be an effective half court team.  This isn't about a love affair with 3 pointers.  This is about floor spacing and operating in a half court set.

I said consistently shoot the 3 at an above average clip.  I think most of those guys actually do, but I'm really not gonna waste the time over such a miniscule point.  Now how many of those guys also play great defense, rebound, assist, and aren't one dimensional offensive players?  And how many of them would you actually consider better players overall than Iguodala?

Btw, when you were talking about Kobe's improvement, were you including the 4 seasons directly before this year that he was below 35%?  Or the fact that he's only had 3 seasons out of 12 of over 35%, one being his rookie year and one being this year?

[Derek Bodner]

I said consistently shoot the 3 at an above average clip.  I think most of those guys actually do, but I'm really not gonna waste the time over such a miniscule point.  Now how many of those guys also play great defense, rebound, assist, and aren't one dimensional offensive players?  And how many of them would you actually consider better players overall than Iguodala?

You're missing the point.  Nobody's saying ship Iguodala out of town.  What we are saying is that this team, as currently constructed, is going to have a hard time.

Second, whether or not they're better players isn't really relevant.  The point is not just collecting talent, but collecting talent that can fit and get the most out of each other. 

I do believe a trio of Miller/Iguodala/Young on the perimeter is not going to work out to the extent of being a championship caliber team.  If you take that, and believe that Young is a potential star, and that Iguodala has the most attractiveness in a trade, and that Iguodala might be drastically overpaid shortly, then I don't think it's ridiculous to bring up the notion of a trade.

Finally, you talk about distorting stats, then pick 35% for Kobe, when his previous two years were 34.8% and 34.4%.  Coincidence?  Probably not.  Kobe's outside shot has been steadily improving for the last 4 years, from 32.7% to 33.9% to 34.8%, then 34.4% to 36.1%.  As such, I put more weight in his being able to make 1.8 per game this year at 36.1% than I do his making 0.5 per game at 26.7% in 1998.  This is way career stats on a guy like Kobe distort the quality of shooter he has become.  If you haven't recognized that Kobe is a vastly superior outside shooter to Andre Iguodala, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Skates]

OK, it's 12:30 a.m. Has he signed a contract yet?

[The Sixer Fixer]

Seriously... since when did we EVER have a legit shot at Brand?? Hadn't those of us with a half a brain been saying for 5 months that Brand was not coming here?

I'm completely perplexed at the reaction some folks are having when they come to the realization that Brand is not really an option (or at least a realistic option).

Bump!

Guess someone doesn't have half a brain

Hey, even our "insider" on RealGM said as late as very late last night that Brand was not an option here.  I think he said something like Brand is going back to the Clips, always has been...

Continued to say we were just waiting for the cap #'s so we can make that big offer to Smith.

Hum, interesting how just 6-7 hours later was there a completely different story.  I still say you guys are getting played by that poster.  99% of what he has reported over the last year and a half has been the exact crap we hear being discussed in the media.  Sorry that I don't believe the guy...I know I'm in the minority on that.

[TheGuiltyParty]

Yeah... I've lost a little bit of faith in SF76's reports after the draft and free agency but hey... as others have said all along, I doubt Stefanski is telling the trainer exactly what's going on.

According to SF, the press conference is scheduled to take place tomorrow. Hopefully he's right about that. :-)

[DuckyNinja]

I said consistently shoot the 3 at an above average clip.  I think most of those guys actually do, but I'm really not gonna waste the time over such a miniscule point.  Now how many of those guys also play great defense, rebound, assist, and aren't one dimensional offensive players?  And how many of them would you actually consider better players overall than Iguodala?

You're missing the point.  Nobody's saying ship Iguodala out of town.  What we are saying is that this team, as currently constructed, is going to have a hard time.

Second, whether or not they're better players isn't really relevant.  The point is not just collecting talent, but collecting talent that can fit and get the most out of each other. 

I do believe a trio of Miller/Iguodala/Young on the perimeter is not going to work out to the extent of being a championship caliber team.  If you take that, and believe that Young is a potential star, and that Iguodala has the most attractiveness in a trade, and that Iguodala might be drastically overpaid shortly, then I don't think it's ridiculous to bring up the notion of a trade.

Finally, you talk about distorting stats, then pick 35% for Kobe, when his previous two years were 34.8% and 34.4%.  Coincidence?  Probably not.  Kobe's outside shot has been steadily improving for the last 4 years, from 32.7% to 33.9% to 34.8%, then 34.4% to 36.1%.  As such, I put more weight in his being able to make 1.8 per game this year at 36.1% than I do his making 0.5 per game at 26.7% in 1998.  This is way career stats on a guy like Kobe distort the quality of shooter he has become.  If you haven't recognized that Kobe is a vastly superior outside shooter to Andre Iguodala, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

We'll agree to disagree on the championship caliber team this year point because I think the reason wouldn't be outside shooting but just lack of experience and development for Thad and lack of talent and intelligence of the C.  I will say that it's pretty hard to drastically overpay a top 30 or top 40 guy in the NBA.

I picked 35% because that's average.  I could've picked 36%.  But really, it doesn't matter, we know what the numbers are.  And going from 32.7 to 33.9 to 34.8 back to 34.4 doesn't show any real improvement considering that's where he's been for most of his career.  Ya think the fact that he jumped to 36.1% with the emergence of Bynum and the Gasol trade is a coincidence?  Maybe adding Brand can have the same effect on Iguodala.  And to call a guy who's had 3 seasons out of 12 over 35% a vastly superior outside shooter (and when I refer to outside shooter, I mean strictly 3 pointers, I don't know if you mean differently) than a guy who's had 1 out of 4 over 35% when for their careers,when one is 0.9% better for their career than the other, or hell, even like 1.5% better the past few years, I'm going to hafta say that simply doesn't seem to me to be the case.

[Derek Bodner]

I picked 35% because that's average.  I could've picked 36%.  But really, it doesn't matter, we know what the numbers are.  And going from 32.7 to 33.9 to 34.8 back to 34.4 doesn't show any real improvement considering that's where he's been for most of his career.  Ya think the fact that he jumped to 36.1% with the emergence of Bynum and the Gasol trade is a coincidence?  Maybe adding Brand can have the same effect on Iguodala.  And to call a guy who's had 3 seasons out of 12 over 35% a vastly superior outside shooter (and when I refer to outside shooter, I mean strictly 3 pointers, I don't know if you mean differently) than a guy who's had 1 out of 4 over 35% when for their careers,when one is 0.9% better for their career than the other, or hell, even like 1.5% better the past few years, I'm going to hafta say that simply doesn't seem to me to be the case.

You're the king of twisting arguments off course.  You asked for a list of players who scored 15 ppg this past year and could hit the 3.  when you get a list, you debate individual players, which is pointless because the point of the list was to display they're not a rarity (the individuals don't matter, as they change from year to year as players progress up and down throughout their careers.  The # per year generally stays consistent).

It's probably a good ending point for the debate.

[DuckyNinja]

I picked 35% because that's average.  I could've picked 36%.  But really, it doesn't matter, we know what the numbers are.  And going from 32.7 to 33.9 to 34.8 back to 34.4 doesn't show any real improvement considering that's where he's been for most of his career.  Ya think the fact that he jumped to 36.1% with the emergence of Bynum and the Gasol trade is a coincidence?  Maybe adding Brand can have the same effect on Iguodala.  And to call a guy who's had 3 seasons out of 12 over 35% a vastly superior outside shooter (and when I refer to outside shooter, I mean strictly 3 pointers, I don't know if you mean differently) than a guy who's had 1 out of 4 over 35% when for their careers,when one is 0.9% better for their career than the other, or hell, even like 1.5% better the past few years, I'm going to hafta say that simply doesn't seem to me to be the case.

You're the king of twisting arguments off course.  You asked for a list of players who scored 15 ppg this past year and could hit the 3.  when you get a list, you debate individual players, which is pointless because the point of the list was to display they're not a rarity (the individuals don't matter, as they change from year to year as players progress up and down throughout their careers.  The # per year generally stays consistent).

It's probably a good ending point for the debate.

You're just as good at twisting DB.  And I'll leave it at that.

[johnny broad-street]

I picked 35% because that's average.  I could've picked 36%.  But really, it doesn't matter, we know what the numbers are.  And going from 32.7 to 33.9 to 34.8 back to 34.4 doesn't show any real improvement considering that's where he's been for most of his career.  Ya think the fact that he jumped to 36.1% with the emergence of Bynum and the Gasol trade is a coincidence?  Maybe adding Brand can have the same effect on Iguodala.  And to call a guy who's had 3 seasons out of 12 over 35% a vastly superior outside shooter (and when I refer to outside shooter, I mean strictly 3 pointers, I don't know if you mean differently) than a guy who's had 1 out of 4 over 35% when for their careers,when one is 0.9% better for their career than the other, or hell, even like 1.5% better the past few years, I'm going to hafta say that simply doesn't seem to me to be the case.

You're the king of twisting arguments off course.  You asked for a list of players who scored 15 ppg this past year and could hit the 3.  when you get a list, you debate individual players, which is pointless because the point of the list was to display they're not a rarity (the individuals don't matter, as they change from year to year as players progress up and down throughout their careers.  The # per year generally stays consistent).

It's probably a good ending point for the debate.

Not to fan the flames, but also, that list is CHOCK full of multi-faceted players who contribute WAY more to their teams than shooting a 3.

[Skates]

A surprising lack of news generally on the FA front today.  GS going after Turiaf after they lock up Maggette, LAC taking a look at Josh Smith and Okafor.  A play for Okafor would be interesting.

[jemagee]

The brand news changes in the last 24 hours leading up to the midnight deadline...I don't doubt SF said what he knew but it was a very fluid situation and he said what he knew at the time, who knows how fast the carney booth thing turned around.

Thanks for the laughs this morning all

[Derek Bodner]

A surprising lack of news generally on the FA front today.  GS going after Turiaf after they lock up Maggette, LAC taking a look at Josh Smith and Okafor.  A play for Okafor would be interesting.

I'll breath easier when LAC submits an offer to one of these guys.