Author Topic: Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshine!!  (Read 12393 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshi
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2008, 08:55:32 PM »
Bleh F Chad Ford lol

Did you get that story as a free preview or are you an "Insider"?
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshi
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2008, 09:45:57 AM »
Bleh F Chad Ford lol

Did you get that story as a free preview or are you an "Insider"?

Im not an insider...the whole thing was posted right out in the open so I didn't think it would be a big deal to give the source up.
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Offline Skandery

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I totally disagree, note the 80's Lakers with Kareem.

While Kareem was a fitness maniac who did yoga, tai chi, etc. and still had that unguardable sky hook well into his 40s, WOW's comparison is remains valid.  Shaq can still rebound and it'll be about getting the ball out to Nash for the break, as fast as possible.  The Suns aren't short on gazelles--Amare, Bell, Barbosa, and even Diaw can run.  Shaq isn't in as good a shape but he's still a big body and a physical presence to account for.  I think that people forget too soon how effective Shaq has looked when surrounded with prolific three point shooters (Damon Jones, Jason Kapono, James Posey, all who Miami just let walk).

Quote
As it is, the Suns just traded their BEST player!!!  


Randy, you're giving too much credit to Shawn Marion.  He's not the Suns best player, that's Steve Nash.  I'm not about to take away from Marion, a guy who for the better part of his career has been underrated, but let's not over-represent what he brings to the table.  

Marion is a versatile defender but has absolutely NO shot at defending true big men like ones the Suns will face in the playoffs.  Gasol, Ming, Boozer, Odom, Duncan, and maybe even David West will destroy Shawn Marion in the post.  He's too undersized to handle their post game when they go deep.  You can put Marion on a guy like Nowitzki who plays more of a perimeter face up/high post game from 15 feet, but none of the other elite PFs.  Odom has absolutely DESTROYED Marion in both of the last playoff series.  I also believe that, while fashionable, calling Phoenix a dreadful defensive team is no longer accurate.  They are in the upper 3rd in opposing team FG% and 2 best team in FG% differential, 4th best in opposing team 3P%, and 6th best in opposing team APG (kept out of the Top 5 by the Spurs, Rockets, Pistons, Mavericks, and Celtics).  I think people focus too much on Phoenix allowing opposing teams to score 103.9 PPG (6th worst) and not enough on scoring differential of 5.9 (4th best).      

Marion, although an exceptional rebounder for his 6'7 frame, has his numbers inflated by the pace of the game that the Suns employ which usually leads to greater rebounding opportunity.  Miami, on the other hand, runs a slower system and therefore less possessions which means less opportunity for rebounds.  Looking at the metric of rebound rate (which accounts for opportunity to get a rebound), Shaq's rebounding actually trumps Marion's.  

Although Marion can score in a variety of ways, almost all of them are initiated by another player creating the opportunity for him.  Someone has to drive and dish to Marion for the shot, or drive and find him diving to the basket, or shoot a shot and miss for his easy put back.  You cannot just give the ball to Marion and say, "Score."  Although he does occassionally run pick-n-roll with Nash, its to nowhere near the extent or success of when its Nash and Stoudemire.  Very occasionally, he'll initiate and try a one-handed half jump hook which often needs precise touch because he doesn't use the backboard.  Consequently in the tough, ugly, grinding basketball of the playoffs, Marion has often-times seen his scoring drop significantly.  After all less of a free-flowing offense means less opportunity for Marion's teammates to find him for scoring chances.  Shaq on the other hand thrives on playoff-style basketball.  

Last but certainly not least, has been the effect of Marion's growing dissatisfaction on locker room morale.  The book, "7 Seconds Or Less" that westkoast mentioned, I read last year, and it was vividly brought to light how Marion despite great personal and team success was despondant and abrasive much of the time.  Observers have time and again stated that the Suns were joyless this year, bickering, going through the motions.  Nash growing weary from coddling the endless fighting between Amare and Marion, super sensitive to any slights real or imagined.  The truth of the matter was that the players and staff have long been past the point of believing they'd be a better team without Marion.  

------------

I have already said that this move smacks of desperation in the face of the Lakers stealing Gasol.  Though after you take a step back and evaluate all aspects of the move--it isn't as horrible or as lopsided as most would have you believe.  The Suns have definitely mortgaged the future but they know the window Nash has provided is fast closing.  I think the Phoenix faithful would say reaching the ultimate goal, which has eluded the franchise its entire 40 year history, is worth the very large gamble of taking on an old Shaquille O'Neal.  
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline westkoast

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Re: Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshi
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2008, 12:03:31 PM »
"Marion is a versatile defender but has absolutely NO shot at defending true big men like ones the Suns will face in the playoffs.  Gasol, Ming, Boozer, Odom, Duncan, and maybe even David West will destroy Shawn Marion in the post.  He's too undersized to handle their post game when they go deep."

Neither can Shaq tho so I still don't get it.  Gasol, Ming, Boozer, and Duncan will have success against him.  There is no way, at this point in his career, he is going to stay with those guys for an entire game.    At least with Marion you could stick him on a Josh Howard, Dirk, Kobe, T-Mac, Manu, Parker, etc.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshi
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2008, 12:23:36 PM »
At least with Marion you could stick him on a Josh Howard, Dirk, Kobe, T-Mac, Manu, Parker, etc.

This is the key IMO.  Before they Suns had two solid defenders:  Marion & Bell.  Now they have one.  Marion's steals, blocks and deflections will be missed the most.


It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline Reality

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Re: Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshi
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2008, 12:25:15 PM »
At least with Marion you could stick him on a Josh Howard, Dirk, Kobe, T-Mac, Manu, Parker, etc.

This is the key IMO.  Before they Suns had two solid defenders:  Marion & Bell.  Now they have one.  Marion's steals, blocks and deflections will be missed the most. 
Wake up and go comment on the Artest to Suns thread.

Offline Laker Fan

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Touche' Lurker and 'Koast, Rick has had his flights of fantasy in the past but this one is beyond the pale.

Rick, I now declare this the dumbest post you have ever made, indeed, only one poster on this board could post something dumber, and you came close to that level here.

WOW, are you serious or merely mocking Rick? Please tell me mocking, I hate to think a Laker fan is that clueless.

If this trade goes through, the Suns are DONE, note this day and what I say, because I will send rick some crow to roast when they get bounced in the first or at the most second round.
He's really tellin ya rick.  His predictions carry a lot of weight.
You know how his previous post on this subject went.
Funny but Miami was just about convinced the title was in the bag once "The Big by Large by Fat" arrived in town, but as we Laker fans know, his presense guarentee's nothing but windfall profits at the local Burger King.  February 10, 2006.

I hate to clue a Laker Fan that thinkless. :D



Quote MSC
I may be in the minority on this board, but I still think it was the right move.
Quote Laker Fan
Among the Laker fans on this board, you are NOT in the minority on this subject MSC, getting rid of Shaq, his ego, and his fat, out of shape, lazy, unmotivated, deteriorating self was in my opinion the best move the Lakers could make. I just wish it had been Jerry West who pulled the trigger on the trade because we would have made out like bandits in one of his legendary deals. Instead we have had to endure Kupchak's version of a "fair trade". Funny but Miami was just about convinced the title was in the bag once "The Big by Large by Fat" arrived in town, but as we Laker fans know, his presense guarentee's nothing but windfall profits at the local Burger King.

Los Angeles would have been in worse shape if they had re-signed him, he would have been just as fat and out of shape if they had, maybe even worse because he would have effectively neutered the Lakers, there would have been no Kobe AND no Phil Jackson and we would still be in the celler with no prospects for the forseeable future, and he would have had ZERO motivation. I think I can live with the current state of the Lakers, there is room to move personel-wise, we are improving as a team and our defense is pretty good. Plus, 1 & 1/2 seasons of no melodrama, how refreshing!
END QUOTE FROM 2/10/06



I fail to see how pulling this post from TWO YEARS AGO! and pulling only part of it so as to change the context entirely made any sense other than to paint the poster who did it as the fool we always took him for anyway.

My predictin that Shaq's presense in Miami guarantee's nothing still stands, he had almost NOTHING to do with their title run and when winning time came he disappeared, no easy feat when you're a beached whale, and Mourning took over.

The Suns are getting a 3 year older, 3 year fatter, 3 year slower, 3 years more injuries, 3 years less motivated FATquille in exchange for a star player who plays better defense, is waaaaay quicker, waaaaaay more motivated, waaaaay more athletic, faaaaar less injury prone, and who was a key anchor to their style of play. How in the world does ANYONE see an upside to this? Unless you are rick and really clueless or an obnoxious kid who is just plain an idiot who's world would come to a screeching halt if he couldn't eat, sleep, breathe Lakers, or worse yet, mommoa stopped paying his internet bill.

What does WOW call him? Twisty Mcspin? Not even I can see the correlation he is trying to make here with his circular logic and his desperate pathetic searching the archive for anything, anything at all, to use to make himself look like he knows what he is talking about, trust me, that is an excercise in pure futility.

Someone needs to get a life, other than this board and sitting there in his momma's basement trying to pull gotcha's from 2 year old archive's so as to make himself look like he know's what he is talking about. Belive me, the only one here that agree's with anything that comes out of this moron's piehole is Rick, and Rick, if I were you that would worry me.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 01:11:54 PM by Laker Fan »
Dan

Offline Lurker

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Touche' Lurker and 'Koast, Rick has had his flights of fantasy in the past but this one is beyond the pale.

Rick, I now declare this the dumbest post you have ever made, indeed, only one poster on this board could post something dumber, and you came close to that level here.

WOW, are you serious or merely mocking Rick? Please tell me mocking, I hate to think a Laker fan is that clueless.

If this trade goes through, the Suns are DONE, note this day and what I say, because I will send rick some crow to roast when they get bounced in the first or at the most second round.
He's really tellin ya rick.  His predictions carry a lot of weight.
You know how his previous post on this subject went.
Funny but Miami was just about convinced the title was in the bag once "The Big by Large by Fat" arrived in town, but as we Laker fans know, his presense guarentee's nothing but windfall profits at the local Burger King.  February 10, 2006.

I hate to clue a Laker Fan that thinkless. :D



Quote MSC
I may be in the minority on this board, but I still think it was the right move.
Quote Laker Fan
Among the Laker fans on this board, you are NOT in the minority on this subject MSC, getting rid of Shaq, his ego, and his fat, out of shape, lazy, unmotivated, deteriorating self was in my opinion the best move the Lakers could make. I just wish it had been Jerry West who pulled the trigger on the trade because we would have made out like bandits in one of his legendary deals. Instead we have had to endure Kupchak's version of a "fair trade". Funny but Miami was just about convinced the title was in the bag once "The Big by Large by Fat" arrived in town, but as we Laker fans know, his presense guarentee's nothing but windfall profits at the local Burger King.

Los Angeles would have been in worse shape if they had re-signed him, he would have been just as fat and out of shape if they had, maybe even worse because he would have effectively neutered the Lakers, there would have been no Kobe AND no Phil Jackson and we would still be in the celler with no prospects for the forseeable future, and he would have had ZERO motivation. I think I can live with the current state of the Lakers, there is room to move personel-wise, we are improving as a team and our defense is pretty good. Plus, 1 & 1/2 seasons of no melodrama, how refreshing!
END QUOTE FROM 2/10/06



I fail to see how pulling this post from TWO YEARS AGO! and pulling only part of it so as to change the context entirely made any sense other than to paint the poster who did it as the fool we always took him for anyway.

My predictin that Shaq's presense in Miami guarantee's nothing still stands, he had almost NOTHING to do with their title run and when winning time came he disappeared, no easy feat when you're a beached whale, and Mourning took over.

The Suns are getting a 3 year older, 3 year fatter, 3 year slower, 3 years more injuries, 3 years less motivated FATquille in exchange for a star player who plays better defense, is waaaaay quicker, waaaaaay more motivated, waaaaay more athletic, faaaaar less injury prone, and who was a key anchor to their style of play. How in the world does ANYONE see an upside to this? Unless you are rick and really clueless or an obnoxious kid who is just plain an idiot who's world would come to a screeching halt if he couldn't eat, sleep, breathe Lakers, or worse yet, mommoa stopped paying his internet bill.

What does WOW call him? Twisty Mcspin? Not even I can see the correlation he is trying to make here with his circular logic and his desperate pathetic searching the archive for anything, anything at all, to use to make himself look like he knows what he is talking about, trust me, that is an excercise in pure futility.

Someone needs to get a life, other than this board and sitting there in his momma's basement trying to pull gotcha's from 2 year old archive's so as to make himself look like he know's what he is talking about. Belive me, the only one here that agree's with anything that comes out of this moron's piehole is Rick, and Rick, if I were you that would worry me.


Sorry Dan but that was so good that I figured I would answer in Reality's place...

Rings which are all that count in Krishna land
Shaq 1
Kobe 0

 :D :D :D :D
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Laker Fan

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Does that include mortgaging your franchises marketabilty and future success for YEARS to come Lurker? Methinks perhaps you want me to backpeddle but I shan't. I said it before the trade and I will say it yet again, smart move was keeping Kobe and unloading O'neal, now the the Lakers, who mortgaged NOTHING for a shot at a title are now just 2-3 years removed from dumping the Big Slob a serious contender with youth, talent, athleticism, and a bright future, I would say one title shot, which they would NEVER have got had the kept Shaq and dumped Kobe is hardly worth it.

Trading a star for a crippled has-been that had little if anything to do with your ONE title on a celler dwelling team that may well be mired in mediocrity for years to come makes sense to who?

Hmm, title contenders for 5+ years or 1 and done, which would you choose?
Dan

Offline WayOutWest

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Hmm, title contenders for 5+ years or 1 and done, which would you choose?

In all honesty, a tough call.  Bird in the hand is worth 5 in the bush so to speak.  Using the 5 year timeframe you stated, if you told me: "do you want 1 title and then suck for 4 years or do you want to be a Suns/Mavs type team that is fun to watch but MAY not win a title, I don't know what I would say.  Half way through no title for the Suns/Mavs, who knows what happens in the next 2-3 years so it may be a moot point.  Like I said, do you take the guarnteed 1 title or the potential 3, since 2 years went by already with nothing.

Today I am glad the Lakers are where they are and where they are going.  Not sure how I would answer that question 2 1/2 years ago.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
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"Not his story"

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"It would've endured"

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Offline JoMal

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How many titles did the Lakers win with both Kobe AND the fat slob on the team?

How many since?

I still think the Lakers will move towards another title much sooner without Kobe. All Gasol gives them is possibly a better seeding in the playoffs.

To be even more honest, the Lakers should try to obtain LeBron James at all costs. He is a bigger, better version of Kobe.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline westkoast

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Re: Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshi
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2008, 02:01:59 PM »
How many titles did the Lakers win with both Kobe AND the fat slob on the team?

How many since?

I still think the Lakers will move towards another title much sooner without Kobe. All Gasol gives them is possibly a better seeding in the playoffs.

To be even more honest, the Lakers should try to obtain LeBron James at all costs. He is a bigger, better version of Kobe.

This is by far the lamest argument and I just wish with the knowledge we have around this board that it would stop.  I expect Reality to repeat it but I hope that our non-crack smoking posters would stop it.

If the Lakers would have kept Shaq they would have won, count them, 0 titles.  The only reason Shaq won a title is he went to a team that had Kobe Jr. on it.  Had he stayed in LA there would be no Kobe Jr to play with and thus the Spurs would have kicked our behind just like they did when Shaq/Kobe were on the team.

Your hate for Kobe is just too much.  I know logically you dont believe what you say but type it up anyways.

Although I agree about Lebron...he is a bigger and stronger version of Kobe minus the defense.  That he could do much better if he put his mind to it.
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Offline Laker Fan

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I know how I would answer, the same way I answered when it happened, LA had NO SHOT WHATSOEVER of another title had they dumped Kobe and kept Shaq, none, zero, zippo, zilch. AND the would have sucked for YEARS to come as an ailing, injured, unmotivated, fat, complaing crybaby Shaq would've only continued his deterioration. If you think Kupchak would have gotten better for Kobe that what he got for Shaq, think again, the league considered Kobe the bigger cancer than Shaq back then and I doubt they would have been lining up to give away the farm to aquire him and so Shaq would have been surrounded with even less talent than Kobe was stuck with, plus no coach to handle his fat lazy butt and the ego that goes with it. If Riles couldn't keep him motivated for more than one season, what make anyone think anyone else could?

With Kobe you have a draw because he is about winning, works hard at winning, and is ALWAYS motivated, regardless of whether it is about ego (it is) or heart (also true), it is still something you can't take away from him, Shaq has never been about anything but Shaq.

I totally understand Miami going after him, they had some pieces in place for a run, and they took thier shot, but regardless of the way it looked to the casual observer, Shaq DID NOT bring them a title, Mourning and Wade did that, that and Dallas' monumental choke job. A franchise with no rings will do what Miami did, good for them, but the Lakers have always been long term visionary's and for them, 1 and done for years to come wasn't worth it, I couldn't agree more.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 02:09:55 PM by Laker Fan »
Dan

Offline JoMal

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Sometimes, you guys (LF's) make my posting here sooo easy.     :D :D
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline WayOutWest

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How many titles did the Lakers win with both Kobe AND the fat slob on the team?

How many since?

I still think the Lakers will move towards another title much sooner without Kobe. All Gasol gives them is possibly a better seeding in the playoffs.

To be even more honest, the Lakers should try to obtain LeBron James at all costs. He is a bigger, better version of Kobe.

The NEW Kobe has impressed me alot, I would not trade him for any other back court player in the league.  The Lakers are title contendors NOW.  They were playoff contendors before Gasol, they are TITLE contendors after Gasol.

LeBron is NOT a better version of Kobe, maybe some day he will be but not TODAY.  That must be a joke!  I would love to see LeBron as a Laker but that will NOT happen at the cost of Kobe, for one Kobe is better and second Kobe still holds his no-trade clause over the Lakers. 
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"